Where Be The Wilson?

[Guest Orj]

As we have a game on Saturday and, seemingly, no obvious candidate for the right wing role, I assume last night's reserve game was an ideal opportunity for Danny Wilson to have a look at the fringe players available to him, to see if anyone fitted the bill.

With that in mind, can anyone confirm, or otherwise, if our manager was there, or is a game in Bristol a bit too far from Danny's home on a Tuesday night for him to attend?

Oh no, that's right, Danny lives in Bristol in the week, so he's bound to have been there. Isn't he....?

If Bristolian midweek resident, Wilson, wasn't there, then I can only assume that Marvin, Clayton and Leroy are walking on air this morning, at the thought of having put in impressive performances, yet nobody from the management team was there to see it.

Anyway, I'm sure it's all academic, as we all know Wilson lives in Bristol.

All we need now is for someone to confirm Danny was at the game last night, and we can lay this concern to rest.

[tompo]

Was waiting for another stick to beat Wilson to be posted.

As our opponents on Saturday had a game last night, I would like to think his attention may have have been on this game and that he was in Peterborough and not Bristol.

[cheese]

Do you think being at last night's game would've told Danny anything he doesn't already know? I doubt it and anyway, no doubt Taylor reports to him and other members of the coaching staff as well. Not forgetting the training ground.

If he wasn't there maybe he was in Stoke talking to Goodfellow and his agents, maybe he was following up other leads for loan or other signings, maybe his grannie was dying. There may be a million reasons why he couldn't or shouldn't be there.

Stop trying to make something that's not there.

C

[Roger Red Hat]

As we have a game on Saturday and, seemingly, no obvious candidate for the right wing role, I assume last night's reserve game was an ideal opportunity for Danny Wilson to have a look at the fringe players available to him, to see if anyone fitted the bill.

With that in mind, can anyone confirm, or otherwise, if our manager was there, or is a game in Bristol a bit too far from Danny's home on a Tuesday night for him to attend?

Oh no, that's right, Danny lives in Bristol in the week, so he's bound to have been there. Isn't he....?

If Bristolian midweek resident, Wilson, wasn't there, then I can only assume that Marvin, Clayton and Leroy are walking on air this morning, at the thought of having put in impressive performances, yet nobody from the management team was there to see it.

Anyway, I'm sure it's all academic, as we all know Wilson lives in Bristol.

All we need now is for someone to confirm Danny was at the game last night, and we can lay this concern to rest.

Dear oh dear oh dear

[Guest Orj]

Stop trying to make something that's not there.

Like a manager, you mean?

Anyway, I assume, from the responses so far, that he wasn't at the reserve game.

Thanks, that's all I wanted to know.

[Guest redrobin108]

No Danny was not at the game last night. Tuesday night reserves match in the south !

Going on last nights performances

Clayton had a good match

M Brown was good in patches.

[cheese]

Thanks, that's all I wanted to know.

If that's all you wanted to know why did you include so much innuendo? I don't know whether he was there or not last night. Frankly I don't see that it's important.

[Guest Orj]

If that's all you wanted to know why did you include so much innuendo?

To explain why I wanted to know.

I don't know whether he was there or not last night.

Me neither, that's why I asked.

Frankly I don't see that it's important.

I do, and I suspect Marvin, Clayton and others do as well.

[StapleHillPhil]

If that's all you wanted to know why did you include so much innuendo?  I don't know whether he was there or not last night.  Frankly I don't see that it's important.

Considering that we've a game on Saturday and for my mind no obvious candidate to fill the wide right role I would've thought that if he considered any of the reserves capable of playing in this role then he should have been at the game.

As he wasnt there then I can only assume we will see any of Carey/Woodman/Clist occupying this position unless Danny is of course 'one phone call away' from providing a signing to fill the void.

[cheese]

On the other hand he may well have decided who, from the stiffs, will cover the role and that being at the game last night wouldn't change his mind.

Of course, maybe he trusts Shaun Taylor's judgement enough for him to give him a full report on the game. I certainly hope he does or Taylor's position would be untenable.

All you're doing is using his absence to beat him with and I have to say that you're clutching at straws if that's the best you can do. Criticise his selction policy, tactics etc., but his absence from last night's game is irrelevant.

Also, I would think that the fact that Marv was pulled off after 60 minutes or so, indicates that he may be in the plans for Saturday - unless he was injured or was having a bit of a stinker (which some seem to think he was).

C

[bucksred]

Tis a measure of how things are when even a mildly sarky post asking if our illustrious manager was there, to provoke the comments, that it has. Mr Wilson, does have a bit to do to win over those of us less than impressed with his work so far, and this game would be a fair way of doing so.

Comments are valid, considering we appear to be a little threadbare in midfield , due to injury, hot headed Welshmen, and Aussies playing for they country. He may have learned something, or perhaps gone to watch County last night...

By watching the reserves he may in fact of found a solution to our problem, but there again, he wont...he'll get someones elses academy players to fill the role

Carey/Clist/Woodman looks favorite for the role doesnt it.

[tompo]

Like a manager, you mean?

Anyway, I assume, from the responses so far, that he wasn't at the reserve game.

Thanks, that's all I wanted to know.

Then why not post on this thread http://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=3371 rather than trying to score petty points or open another meaningless debate about Wilson's living arrangements.

Saturday's game is arguably the most important of the season to date and we should be united behind the team (and manager). I know the essence of the forum is about debate and opinions but threads like this do more harm than good.

[Port Said Red]

As Saturdays opposition were playing last night and the anti Wilson brigade always say he spends too much worrying about them, I assumed he was there watching them.

It seems more reasonable that he was watching 11 players that will be probably be playing on Saturday rather than one that might that he knows already.

Or isn't he that worried about them after all? :Confused13: :Confused13: :Confused13:

[bucksred]

Couldnt give a toss where he lives, although, it would be better to live near Briz, after all Wardy lived up Midlands way.

What concerns me is what he does for the club, ie getting us up, and staying there.

He has a tough job, pleasing all of us, and he isnt exactly doing that, and I would like to think he's working on getting us out soonest, and right now, a hugely important set of games, should be fully occupying his work time..

[redrocks]

Then why not post on this thread http://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=3371 rather than trying to score petty points or open another meaningless debate about Wilson's living arrangements.

Saturday's game is arguably the most important of the season to date and we should be united behind the team (and manager).  I know the essence of the forum is about debate and opinions but threads like this do more harm than good.

Actually, I think that, despite his evident twaticity and ######stirring ability, Orj has every right to ask this question.

Why would a thread like this do harm?

[cheese]

Actually, I think that, despite his evident twaticity and ######stirring ability, Orj has every right to ask this question.

Why would a thread like this do harm?

No harm in asking the question at all but, it's the continual sarcasm and innuendo that devalues the question, that I object to.

If you think DW should've been there last night then fair enough - I don't, but don't litter the argument with petty point scoring sarcasm.

C

[Guest Bow_Legged_Chicken]

Personally i think its a good question and point.

I believe that as we have an academy our manager should be out watching and monitering these players more often than not.

I have said this many a time and will say it again. Wilson is not a man to look at what hes already got hes more interested on what he can get. Look at Hawkins, Marvin and Lita all players many a fan would like to see more often. But he brings in Roberts a player very similar to Marvin, Miller putting Lita furthur back in the que and then we got a right win crisis and we are sending our brigtest young winger out on loan.

I personally don't think this man got a clue how to help develop young players so as long as hes in charge the money going into the academy is a complete waste, for all we know we could have the next DeFoe or Rooney on our books but Wilson just wil lsend him to Bath or Cheltenham.

It looks as if the club is going to keep Wilson and I'm not going into whether i agree or disagree with that right now but i think as long as we are going to keep him we should s#### the academy and use the extra money we are not spending on it to bring in players. Afterall thats all Wilson does anyway.

[Guest Orj]

On the other hand he may well have decided who, from the stiffs, will cover the role and that being at the game last night wouldn't change his mind.

So, you refer to our young, up and coming players, who are trying to impress the manager, as "the stiffs", do you?

I do hope Mr. Wilson doesn't share your dismissive attitude towards the future of our club.

Of course, maybe he trusts Shaun Taylor's judgement enough for him to give him a full report on the game.  I certainly hope he does or Taylor's position would be untenable.

Coaching the reserves and picking the players for the manager are two very different things.

Surely, Taylor is there to develop/train the players and Wilson is supposed to cherry pick them for the first team when he sees fit.

All you're doing is using his absence to beat him with and I have to say that you're clutching at straws if that's the best you can do.  Criticise his selction policy, tactics etc., but his absence from last night's game is irrelevant.

No, I merely asked if he was present to witness the efforts of our fringe players and, if not, I wondered if it affected the morale of the young players who performed well but didn't have their manager there to see it.

As it happens, I do see his absence from last night's game as a criticism of his selection policy or, at least, his selection process, if you prefer.

Also, I would think that the fact that Marv was pulled off after 60 minutes or so, indicates that he may be in the plans for Saturday - unless he was injured or was having a bit of a stinker (which some seem to think he was).

Yes, some think he did well and some think he had a bit of a stinker. Hard to know what to think without actually seeing it for yourself, wouldn't you say?

[cheese]

So, you refer to our young, up and coming players, who are trying to impress the manager, as "the stiffs", do you?

Hmm, the reserves are usually referred to as the stiffs - it's not a reflection on their ability - surprised you wouldn't know that.

Surely, Taylor is there to develop/train the players and Wilson is supposed to cherry pick them for the first team when he sees fit.

I'm sure you're right. However, I would hope that Wilson would trust Taylor to provide detailed reports on how the players performed and how they might fit in with the first team - if he can't then Taylor would have to go!

No, I merely asked if he was present to witness the efforts of our fringe players and, if not, I wondered if it affected the morale of the young players who performed well but didn't have their manager there to see it.

No you didn't - you implied that it was because Wilson couldn't be bothered or was spending the evening in Chesterfield.

Yes, some think he did well and some think he had a bit of a stinker. Hard to know what to think without actually seeing it for yourself, wouldn't you say?

In which case I would ask someone who was there and who I knew I could trust to give an honest appraisal - like Taylor for example!

C

[Guest Bow_Legged_Chicken]

At the end of the day it wilsons job to pick players for the squad if he simply said "aye sean whos half decent around yer then" taylor says " oh ar Hawkins ain alf bad mind" Wilson says " cheers Tayz i will wack him in the squad next game then"

Wilson may use Taylor and Barlow and our other scouts to reccommend players fair enough but if he simply trusts the word of barlow and Taylor hes going about his and their jobs all the wrong way in my opinion.

[Guest Hodges17]

At the end of the day it wilsons job to pick players for the squad if he simply said "aye sean whos half decent around yer then" taylor says " oh ar Hawkins ain alf bad mind" Wilson says " cheers Tayz i will wack him in the squad next game then"

Wilson may use Taylor and Barlow and our other scouts to reccommend players fair enough but if he simply trusts the word of barlow and Taylor hes going about his and their jobs all the wrong way in my opinion

Agreed there, Gray Ray down Horfield way relied totally on our useless ex-assistant John Still for appraisal of players.

Not to Say S.Taylor is as useless as Still; no-one ever will be, but the manager ought to be watching those who are not in his first 11 and seeing if they are worthy of a place instead of players already there.

On the subject, why is Doherty still in your first team most weeks?

[cheese]

At the end of the day it wilsons job to pick players for the squad if he simply said "aye sean whos half decent around yer then" taylor says " oh ar Hawkins ain alf bad mind" Wilson says " cheers Tayz i will wack him in the squad next game then"

I would hope that the conversation would be more detailed than that. And anyway, you're forgetting that Wilson will already have seen these players play - it's not as if they play for another club.

C

[Guest Bow_Legged_Chicken]

That is exactly the whole arguement how often does Wilson go and see these players play and that he should be down keeping an eye on them far more often than he already is!!

[cheese]

That is exactly the whole arguement how often does Wilson go and see these players play and that he should be down keeping an eye on them far more often than he already is!!

Fair enough - so how many times has he seen them play and how many times should he have seen them?

C

[Port Said Red]

Quite right Cheese it's not quantity it's quality time.

In Bill Shankly's book he said that he would get reports on players in the lower leagues about great performances, etc.

But when he wanted to know about a player he would go and see them away at Carlisle (or similar) on a wet and windy night in front of one man and his dog. If they played well then it told him all he needed to know.

How much would Wilson have learned from watching our reserves against inferior opposition last night? He's seen them against other academies players, in training etc and must know their strengths and weaknesses already.

[Guest O_Faz]

There were a few City players down there yesterday, I think someone mentioned Burnell was down there, and Tinnion was stood on the terracing with either 2 coaches or scouts, who are probably doing Wilsons scouting as such.

Its likely Wilson was at Peterborough N.County last night.

[Guest Orj]

Hmm, the reserves are usually referred to as the stiffs - it's not a reflection on their ability - surprised you wouldn't know that.

I am aware of that, I am also aware that it isn't exactly a term of endearment and was making the point that I hope that the manager holds them in a higher esteem than to use a term such as yourself.

I'm sure you're right.  However, I would hope that Wilson would trust Taylor to provide detailed reports on how the players performed and how they might fit in with the first team - if he can't then Taylor would have to go!

So, you are simply reiterating the point that Taylor picks Wilson's team for him. Remind me what a manager is supposed to do? It is one thing to ask an opinion on a player but quite another to evaluate that player yourself and see how cohesively he would fit into the unit for which you are responsible.

We were reminded on the homepage today that Taylor is a development coach, that is quite a different role to that of the person who picks players for the first team.

No you didn't - you implied that it was because Wilson couldn't be bothered or was spending the evening in Chesterfield.

Actually, I don't think you'll find I mentioned Chesterfield, you did.

In which case I would ask someone who was there and who I knew I could trust to give an honest appraisal - like Taylor for example!

I wouldn't, I'd be there watching the match.

The point I am making is this. Was last night's absence an unusual thing or is it the norm? If he was away watching Notts County then that activity undoubtedly has some merit but what about all the other occasions when the reserves and academy play? Is he there then? Perhaps we could have a forum Danny watch? I know there are people who post on here who regularly attend reserve/academy games. I would certainly be appreciative if they would keep the forum populous informed as to just how often the manager attends these games and perhaps we can all garner an idea of just how the manager evaluates the performance and ability of the squad at his disposal.

I am sure that if what I suspect to be true proves to be right that we can have an interesting debate on the merits of having an academy at a club where the manager doesn't watch them play. Perhaps it might account for why he apparently has his 'favourites' while other players get left out in the cold for very long periods of time; indeed, if the manager does rarely/never attend academy matches, what would this do to the morale of the players coming through that academy? Would the money invested in the academy be a worthwhile expenditure if the manager isn't around to observe and, therefore, cherry pick the best players. Don't get me wrong, I am very pro-academy but only if there is a manager at the end of the production line inspecting the goods and picking the good-uns off when he believes them to be ready.

Regardless of whether or not you take exception to my debating technique, this is a valid discussion to have and to simply highlight sarcasm in my posts as a way of attempting to shoot down my argument is to admit that you have no better argument to counter me with. It would be interesting to find out the level of involment with their whole squad/academy that succesful coaches at, or just above, our level have on a day-to-day basis and compare that with the involvement of Wilson. Perhaps Peter Taylor, who has always done well in and around the Nationwide leagues would be a good comparison, or maybe Dario Gradi, Neil Warnock, Alan Curbishley, Sam Allardyce or Harry Redknapp. There is a debate worth having about management techniques and the level of day-to-day involvement that succesful managers have with their squads and youth set-ups, even if it has the potential to reveal a few uncomfortable truths close to home.

[bucksred]

Not a dig at Wilson for living oop north, that is down to him, but he cant have much spare time to watch reserve, and academy games, or to watch potential signings.

As we apear to be a bit light on scouts, how do we get a good picture of the opposition/potential players, specially as Shaun, and the rest must be pretty busy themselves.

Could this explain some of the performances this season, in particular?

and the niggley disciplinary bookings?

[tompo]

I am very pro-academy but only if there is a manager at the end of the production line inspecting the goods and picking the good-uns off when he believes them to be ready.

I can't think of any industry or organisation where a manager would be sat at the end of the production line checking the quality of the product. Other people would be charged with responsibility of quality control. That is management.

The truth is that you have a problem with Wilson and this was just a pathetic attempt to resurrect a debate that died a death last week.

[tompo]

Senior Japanese managers 'mucking in' on the shop floor is very common in Japan and in their factories in England. Danny Wilson and Co take note  B)

If you count the training ground as being the shop floor, then I am sure that Wilson and his management team (and the same applies at most clubs) do more than their share of "mucking in".

One of the most underrated managers we ever had, Terry Cooper, even used to sweep the floor in the dressing room.

[cheese]

I am aware of that, I am also aware that it isn't exactly a term of endearment and was making the point that I hope that the manager holds them in a higher esteem than to use a term such as yourself.

Everyone I know involved in football refers to the reserves as the stiffs. It is not used in a derogatory way now, in the same way as the Gas have adopted what was a term of abuse.

So, you are simply reiterating the point that Taylor picks Wilson's team for him.

No, I said that Taylor would provide detailed reports on players performance. His opinion would be sought and then Wilson makes the decision.

I am sure that if what I suspect to be true proves to be right that we can have an interesting debate on the merits of having an academy at a club where the manager doesn't watch them play. Perhaps it might account for why he apparently has his 'favourites' while other players get left out in the cold for very long periods of time; indeed, if the manager does rarely/never attend academy matches, what would this do to the morale of the players coming through that academy? Would the money invested in the academy be a worthwhile expenditure if the manager isn't around to observe and, therefore, cherry pick the best players.

I'm sure you're entitled to ask such questions - but you didn't originally. Personally, I expect the Chairman to be aware of what's going on and to ask those same questions. If your research reveals your suspiscions to be true then I would also expect the resignation of the Chairman. At the moment I see no evidence that the chairman is neglecting his duty.

[cheese]

The Japanisation of British Industry.

I was lucky enough to get a tour around the Ricoh factory in Telford Staffordshire a few years back. I witnessed one senior Japanese manager doing a menial job on the production line and another Japanese manager inspecting the finished products. Could this be one of the reasons why Japanese production methods result in some of the lowest priced and highest quality products in the world?

Senior Japanese managers 'mucking in' on the shop floor is very common in Japan and in their factories in England. Danny Wilson and Co take note  B)

So, do you know much about Japanese production methods then? Kaizen, JIT, Continuous improvement etc?

Then you'll know that each person is empowered to make decisions about the production line. For example, at the Nissan factory in Sunderland the cleaner would be able to shut the production line if they noticed anything awry. I thought the argument was that Wilson was not hands enough and shouldn't be delegating, if indeed that is what he is doing.

C

[Guest Orj]

I can't think of any industry or organisation where a manager would be sat at the end of the production line checking the quality of the product. Other people would be charged with responsibility of quality control.

Agreed, neither can I, but the analogy you make is a bad one. Watching the reserves or academy isn't quality control, it is observing a potential new supplier. The production line of a manufacturing plant is more analogous to the coaching and development of the youth players, something that we have Taylor and others to do. In both cases, the production line/coaching are effectively the daily grind. However, in both cases, the manager should be actively involved in the recruitment of better suppliers and vetting the quality of those suppliers, be they a raw material supplier or a young potential player.

Using your analogy, taking my use of the words 'production line' in the strictest sense, you may be talking about hundreds or thousands of end products per day. It goes without saying that a manager wouldn't be involved directly in the day-to-day quality control in such a scenario. Obviously you can't equate that to an academy that may produce 2 or 3 players per year but hey if you want to use your intentional misinterpretation of my post as a basis for a discussion rather than discussing the salient points sensibly then there isn't a lot I can do about it.

The truth is that you have a problem with Wilson

If you mean that my problem is that my suspicion is that he doesn't do his job properly by commiting the time/effort to it that it justifies then, yes, I do have a problem. I raised numerous points in my previous post about how a partly absent manager may affect the running of a club, particularly in comparison to other succesful managers but you simply choose not to discuss that because you can't see beyond your belief that I have some kind of vendetta against Wilson. I am simply raising what I believe to be valid concerns but rather than discuss them on their own merits you simply choose to dismiss them as the words of someone with 'a problem' and pick up on a few words that you can purposefully misinterpret to try to discredit my argument.

this was just a pathetic attempt to resurrect a debate that died a death last week.

Died a death how? Because you said it died a death? Because SteveL said the manager has a place in Bristol? Because of what? Please enlighten me as to how you have decided this is no longer a valid debate because as far as I am concerned it is a debate very much at the forefront of the future of this club. The role the manager plays in the club, his level of day-to-day involvement, his level of involvement in youth development, his level of involvement with the reserves, whether he watches other teams before we play them and how often, whether his priority should be to watch our reserves or our next opponents when we have no obvious candidate for the right-wing position and some potential candidates in the reserves, whether his level of involvement permits the most efficient use of the academy, how his absence or otherwise effects squad/academy morale, these are all issues critical to the future of the club and issues I believe worthy of discussion and debate. Please let me know if there are any other debates that you have closed to so that I know where I can and can't tread in future.

[Guest Orj]

Everyone I know involved in football refers to the reserves as the stiffs.  It is not used in a derogatory way now, in the same way as the Gas have adopted what was a term of abuse.

Fair enough. Evidently we are in agreement in that we hope that Wilson does see the reserves as a very valuable tool that he should be making the greatest possible use of that his ability permits.

No, I said that Taylor would provide detailed reports on players performance.  His opinion would be sought and then Wilson makes the decision.

Well, to be quite honest, I could do the job if all it is doing is collating second-hand information of players suitability and collating the results. There comes a point where Wilson should be evaluating players himself and studying how they would integrate into his first team. Much of this could not possibly be gleaned from the second-hand information obtained from someone less qualified and with less experience than him. Taylor should be coaching and developing the academy players but it should be Wilson's decision based on his own observations as to whether a player is ready for his first team. If picking your first team were so simple as asking for the opinions of experts and collating that information then why on Earth would Sven-Goran Eriksson seemingly spend half of his life travelling the length and breadth of the country to sit and watch players play? One can only assume that it is because seeing that player yourself is a far more insightful and valuable experience than picking up the phone to speak to that players coach. Perhaps, too, he values the opportunity to meet players and interact with them directly for the psychological benefits that this may have on their performances and development. I am in no doubt that it is possible to be too 'hands-off' in a managerial capacity and, in my experience, it is the most out-of-touch managers that are the least successful at getting good results from their staff and keeping team morale high; I see no reason why this should be any different in football.

I'm sure you're entitled to ask such questions - but you didn't originally.

The inference was there though and I didn't ask any questions that weren't worthy of an answer.

Personally, I expect the Chairman to be aware of what's going on and to ask those same questions.

As do I.

If your research reveals your suspiscions to be true then I would also expect the resignation of the Chairman.

If what I suspect does prove to be true, I wouldn't personally go so far as to say I would expect his resignation but I would say that he is neglecting his responsibility to the club and the fans and that he should flex his muscles to rectify the situation. What it boils down to is how you would expect the club to run if you were the Chairman. Personally, I would expect a very hands-on approach from my manager and a very visible demonstration of commitment in terms of time and effort expended in doing his job. We are already aware that Steve is happy with the current arrangement he has with his manager and is content that Wilson is carrying out his job effectively. That's not to say, though, that we can't discuss how we believe things ought to be done differently in order to benefit the club. Nor is it to say that the Chairman isn't open to input and suggestions from people who, like him, care about the future of the club.

At the moment I see no evidence that the chairman is neglecting his duty.

Agreed but that isn't to say it wouldn't be enlightening to see just what is expected of the manager of the club we support and know what the manager does and doesn't do in comparison to other successful managers.

[x3widRacin]

Like a manager, you mean?

Anyway, I assume, from the responses so far, that he wasn't at the reserve game.

Thanks, that's all I wanted to know.

Because I'm sure it's an absolute disaster that he wasnt at agame that the rest of our coaching staff was at.... Justas long as he WAS in fact discussing with goodfellow or checking up on other opposition that is

[Guest Orj]

Because I'm sure it's an absolute disaster that he wasnt at agame that the rest of our coaching staff was at

I see you chose not to read the bit in one of my posts where I said "The point I am making is this. Was last night's absence an unusual thing or is it the norm?". In my opinion, if it is the norm then, yes, in the context of Bristol City, the manager noy normally being present at reserve or academy matches is an absolute disaster.

Justas long as he WAS in fact discussing with goodfellow or checking up on other opposition that is

Like you, I hope he was but I doubt there is anyone on here able to substantiate this or otherwise. I would hazard that he likely wasn't discussing terms with Goodfellow as matters of money are usually dealt with by the Chairman and Chief Exec if my understanding is correct. Whether he was at Notts County, your guess is as good as mine.

[Guest Orj]

If your research reveals your suspiscions to be true then I would also expect the resignation of the Chairman.

It would seem, then, that for all your defending of Mr Wilson and your statement that this subject has "died a death", you actually agree with me that, if the manager is failing to attend reserve team and Academy games, then it is a serious issue.

In fact, you seem to think it is so serious that, should it be true, the Chairman of the club should resign.

I find it interesting that, on the one hand, you say that it is fine for Wilson to collate information about reserve team players solely from reports he receives from Shaun Taylor and thr Academy coaches (which is your assumption, not fact), but on the other hand, you suggest that if he is doing that, then the Chairman should walk.

[Port Said Red]

I would have thought the whole point is how often does Wilson have to see them play?

He does go to reserve games, other's have told me they have seen him at certain games.

He can't go to all the games academy matches etc (some of them fall on 1st team match days), like any good Manager there comes a point when he has to decide his priorities and DELEGATE other tasks that clash with them to to trusted employees.

Whether he was needed in Stoke, Peterborough or was required to sit by the phone on Tuesday is neither here nor there he had delegated the game to others. The names have already been mentioned here.

Somehow I feel this was a wasted post, because your attitude suggests you would only be happy if you had a list of his weekly whereabouts posted to you like my boss insists I do for him!

[cheese]

It would seem, then, that for all your defending of Mr Wilson and your statement that this subject has "died a death", you actually agree with me that, if the manager is failing to attend reserve team and Academy games, then it is a serious issue.

In fact, you seem to think it is so serious that, should it be true, the Chairman of the club should resign.

I find it interesting that, on the one hand, you say that it is fine for Wilson to collate information about reserve team players solely from reports he receives from Shaun Taylor and thr Academy coaches (which is your assumption, not fact), but on the other hand, you suggest that if he is doing that, then the Chairman should walk.

you actually agree with me that, if the manager is failing to attend reserve team and Academy games, then it is a serious issue.

No, what I'm saying is that I expect the Chairman to have a handle on the situation. If the club feel that the manager should have attended the reserve game then I expect the club's disciplinary procedures to swing into action. If they have not then either the club are happy with the way things work at the moment or the chairman is guilty of dereliction of duty. If the latter then he should walk. I doubt that's the case.

I find it interesting that, on the one hand, you say that it is fine for Wilson to collate information about reserve team players solely from reports he receives from Shaun Taylor and thr Academy coaches (which is your assumption, not fact), but on the other hand, you suggest that if he is doing that, then the Chairman should walk.

I think it is fine - but what's important is whether SL considers it fine. If he does then that's ok - if he doesn't then I would expect him to take action. So, what I'm saying is that if Wilson is expected to be at reserve games by his employers and he has been flouting that requirement then I would be concerned that SL had allowed him to get away with it - it would be his responsibility.

In any event, I can't see that there was anything to gain from him being there for that one game - anything he needed to know could have been communicated to him adequately enough by others. I imagine SL's view is the same - he has initmated as much in previous interviews.

I'm not suggesting that Wilson should make decisions SOLELY on reports received - as I've said - he would have already seen the reserve players playing at some point and would see them during training. Using all that information he will form a view and make a decision - maybe he will bounce ideas around with Frank, Shaun and anyone else whose views he values.

C

[Beezey]

Danny Wilson attends most reserve games and academy games.

He wasn’t there on Tuesday because I suspect he was probably scouting the opposition for Saturday.

This whole thread has been written on the "What if" basis, with accusations of "He’s not doing his job properly" and such like.

If the people who say he isn’t "doing his job" went to reserve games, Academy games you would see him there as long as he doesn’t have something more important to do like scout opposition etc.

On Tuesday he had plenty of people to give him reports,

Shaun Taylor

Tony Fawthrop

Brian Tinnion

Keith Millen

If that’s not enough coaches to give you feedback then I don’t know what is!

[Ian M]

My opinion is that Taylor should watch the Academy matches on a regular basis (say 75-80% of the home games) to cherry pick the better Academy players for his Development XI.

Wilson should in turn watch the Development XI to cherry pick the best of those for the first team. No one should expect Wilson to travel to away reserve matches but it'd be nice to think that good performances in the Development XI were occasionally watched by the manager of the first team. It would also act as a psychological boost to these players knowing that good performances would be witnessed by Wilson and then possibly rewarded,

Of course Taylor should consult with Wilson over who has been performing well of late but once Wilson knows who to look out for, it should be him himself who runs the final rule over the player. Ok he can see every player in training but we all know that training and matches are two totally different situations. eg in seasons past, Aaron Brown has been one of the most prolific scorers in training yet his goalscoring record to date in 1st team matches leaves a little to be desired.

Anyway, having said all that, for my crimes I have been to about 15-20 Development XI matches, sad I know, but only recall seeing him at 1 of those. He may have been there more often than that but it was just the one occasion that I recall and I actually made a habit of looking for him.

[Guest Orj]

No, what I'm saying is that I expect the Chairman to have a handle on the situation.  If the club feel that the manager should have attended the reserve game then I expect the club's disciplinary procedures to swing into action.

When has anyone questioned the club's disciplinary procedures? You seem to be chasing your tail and avoiding the salient issue of whether or not the manager should be present at reserve and academy matches. Talking about such issues as dereliction of duty and the role of the Chairman is simply trying to muddy the waters where we were debating whether the level of involvement that the manager has with various aspects of the club is appropraite or not.

Madger pointed out that he has seen him at just 1 of roughly 20 matches that he has attended, to my mind that is simply not good enough. How can he form his own meaningful opinions on the likes of Lita, Fortune or Hawkins if he sees them in a competitive match just a handful of times per season? To my mind, he can't.

I think it is fine - but what's important is whether SL considers it fine.  If he does then that's ok - if he doesn't then I would expect him to take action.  So, what I'm saying is that if Wilson is expected to be at reserve games by his employers and he has been flouting that requirement then I would be concerned that SL had allowed him to get away with it - it would be his responsibility.

You are getting into the realm of trying to drag other issues into this again. Regardless of what the Chairman thinks, do you think it is appropriate for a manager to watch his academy and reserve teams just a handful of times per season?

In any event, I can't see that there was anything to gain from him being there for that one game

You are missing the point again, is it just one game? Will he be watching the reserves in action over the coming weeks and months? That is the point I am trying to make. Missing the odd game here and there when there are other things to do is understandable but he doesn't have other teams to watch and transfers to be involved in on many of the times when we have teams in competitive action. To my mind, he has no excuse not to be there then.

I'm not suggesting that Wilson should make decisions SOLELY on reports received - as I've said - he would have already seen the reserve players playing at some point and would see them during training.  Using all that information he will form a view and make a decision - maybe he will bounce ideas around with Frank, Shaun and anyone else whose views he values.

Yet again, the crux of my argument is to ask how much of this information is his own and how much is second hand. How much commitment is he showing to his job? How often is he there to put his arm around an academy players shoulder to pick him up after a poor performance? How often is he there to see the reserves press for a first team spot? Now that some of us are aware that he isn't around perhaps as often as we thought he might have been, we will see in the next few weeks and months just how often he is around to oversee things and perhaps we can continue to discuss our opinions as things pan out.

[PhatWill]

In my opinion its not that important for DW to attend every reserve game. Wilson DOES turn up to some reserve games and added to the fact that he see's every player at the club in training most days, its not a problem.

1st team managers don't always watch the reserves, its not just Wilson.

This subject has been over exaggerated. End of.

[Guest TA8 RED]

I have a friend who is a scout for a gloucester side and he goes to a lot of games in the area,he has told me on many occasions that DW has not been anywhere near the academy for ages,it is the general feeling he is not interested in the academy.

[Guest Orj]

  I have a friend who is a scout for a gloucester side and he goes to a lot of games in the area,he has told me on many occasions that DW has not been anywhere near the academy for ages,it is the general feeling he is not interested in the academy.

That isn't a lot different to what I have heard either.

[Port Said Red]

That isn't a lot different to what I have heard either.

Isn't almost a separate entity run under our name?

[Guest Orj]

Isn't almost a separate entity run under our name?

Well, to my mind, the academy is an integral part of the future of the first team and should be seamlessly integrated into the machinations of the club as far as is possible. To run it as a seperate entity would be not to gain the full benefit from having an acedemy, neither from the academy nor the first teams point of view.

Certainly, to my mind, the manager of the club should be guiding/overseeing the academy to ensure that players are developed how he sees fit to enable him to bring them into the first team.

There are many managers at our level that would love the luxury of an academy at their club to pick from. That we have a manager that, perhaps, doesn't make the greatest possible use of it is, without wishing to sound overly dramatic, quite a travesty. Again, I would be interested to draw comparisons to how the likes of Peter Taylor and Dario Gradi are involved with youth and reserve set-ups at their respective clubs. The academy is simply too valuable a tool not to make effective use of.

[Guest Orj]

This subject has been over exaggerated. End of.

Has it? How? How often is he at academy matches? how often is he at reserve matches? How often should he be at these matches? Without answers to these questions, how can you say whether anything has been exaggerated?

[Port Said Red]

Certainly, to my mind, the manager of the club should be guiding/overseeing the academy to ensure that players are developed how he sees fit to enable him to bring them into the first team.

On other posts were we discussed the academy at length people quoted the fact that Gary Johnson ran the academy at Watford. Listening to him and Graham Taylor on the radio last Friday, GJ made the point that it was good grounding for him because although GT was available for advice he basically was his own man and made the key decisions.

We're back to my point earlier, it's all about DELEGATION, I am sure we would be having a different discussion here if he spent all his time at the academy to the detriment of the 1st TEAM. His MAIN RESPONSIBILITY.

I'm finished now, as I said before, it's falling on deaf ears as you have made up your mind that missing a reserve game means DW should be dismissed.

Thank's for the discussion amd goodbye. :Wave: :Wave: :Wave:

[Guest Liverpool 0 Bristol City 1]

At the end of the day what difference does it make who watches the reserves as long as the performances of each player a studied over several matches,and then reported to the manager.THIS IS THE JOB OF RESERVE TEAM COACH.

England players are not selected on the strength of one league game, so for Danny to pop down and select a reserve player on the strength of one game would in my opinion be asking for trouble,he would by all accounts be better off studying the opposition tactics instead of having two coaches wasting club resources by both attending a reserve game.Despite all the Wilson bashing concerning Lita,it is interesting that Shaun Taylor, the coach who has seen him play the most has come out and said he is not ready for the full mins yet, in this case both coaches have the best interests of the club and player at heart despite what may seem obvious to us fans.

[cheese]

orj

Just for the sake of clarity as you seem to be getting a little confused, here is my take on the issue.

1. I have no idea how often DW attends reserve and academy matches. He attends some and that is enough for me. It seems perfectly proper that DW should rely heavily on reports from his backroom staff - that is what they are there for.

2. If you feel that he should attend more then fair enough - but I disagree.

3. I'm happy for SL to ensure that DW acts and does his job in the manner that is required. If he doesn't then I would expect SL to act.

4. If DW is not acting properly under the terms of his contract and should be attending more reserve and academy games (if such things are included) and SL is choosing to "overlook" that fact then I would want SL to stand down too for failing to "manage" the manager.

5. I see no evidence that SL or the club is unhappy with the number of times Wilson attends non-first team games.

[tompo]

5.  I see no evidence that SL or the club is unhappy with the number of times Wilson attends non-first team games.

As Goodfellow has apparently signed for us, i assume that Wilson's future remains secure for the foreseeable future.

[Dave L]

There are many managers at our level that would love the luxury of an academy at their club to pick from. That we have a manager that, perhaps, doesn't make the greatest possible use of it is, without wishing to sound overly dramatic, quite a travesty.

There are 15 sound rebuttals of this argument. Phillips, Coles, Lita, Hill, Carey, Doherty, Burnell, Woodman, Simpson, Jones, Amankwaah, Fortune, A Brown, M Brown, Hawkins.

All members of the first team squad. All products of the academy or the previous youth system. All with first team experience. Most with the prospect of a good career ahead of them, hopefully at Bristol City.

There may well be an argument that suggests Danny should go to more reserve and academy games than he does. One that has been repeated at some length on this thread.

But to suggest that he doesn't make adequate use of the academy is nonsense.

You go on to say 'The academy is simply too valuable a tool not to make effective use of'. Anything between five and seven of those players are current First Team starters. Don't you consider that 'effective use?'

[PhatWill]

There are 15 sound rebuttals of this argument. Phillips, Coles, Lita, Hill, Carey, Doherty, Burnell, Woodman, Simpson, Jones, Amankwaah, Fortune, A Brown, M Brown, Hawkins.

Well said.

It's complete drivel that DW doesn't make use of our academy and encourage a general youth policy.

The average age of our first team is about 22.

ORJ - "Has it? How? How often is he at academy matches? how often is he at reserve matches? How often should he be at these matches? Without answers to these questions, how can you say whether anything has been exaggerated?"

Simply, I don't find the answers to those questions particularly important. I know DW goes to reserve games becasue I've seen him at them.

My mind is at rest with the subject and so should yours, is it really THAT a vital part of his job description? In my humble opinion not...

[Guest benny]

i hope he was out gettin smashed out of his head on scrumpy whilst devising a

cunning plan plan to catch hollow head and his merry men and climb into that

lovely promotion spot !!!! stuff the reserves if they aint good enuf get rid !!!!

[Guest Orj]

I am sure we would be having a different discussion here if he spent all his time at the academy to the detriment of the 1st TEAM. His MAIN RESPONSIBILITY.

But that is just my point. Is the amount of time he spends, or rather doesn't spend, with the reserves and academy to the detriment of the first team?

I'm finished now, as I said before, it's falling on deaf ears as you have made up your mind that missing a reserve game means DW should be dismissed.

Shame you aren't reading my posts then, either that or you are misinterpreting them. I am not saying that missing a reserve game means he should be dismissed, I am asking how many reserve and academy games he misses and how this affects our squad and our first team's prospects.

Thank's for the discussion amd goodbye. :Wave:  :Wave:  :Wave:

Cheerio

[Guest Orj]

At the end of the day what difference does it  make who watches the reserves as long as the performances of each player a studied over several matches,and then reported to the manager.

To my mind, it makes every difference. I have covered why I believe so at length in previous posts but can summarise by saying that I believe you lose a lot in the interpretation of second-hand information and can pick up more subtle nuances by seeing things with your own eyes; also there is the unquantifiable effect on academy/reserve morale.

THIS IS THE JOB OF RESERVE TEAM COACH.

Personally, I'd have thought the reserve team coaches job was to coach the reserves.

England players are not selected on the strength of one league game

Granted but at least Sven puts himself out to go and watch as many games as he possibly can rather than relying on other people.

for Danny to pop down and select  a reserve player on the strength of one game would in my opinion be asking for trouble

Who suggested picking someone on the strength of one game? He should have seen these players play in far more than one game and, yet again, therein lies my point.

he would by all accounts be better off studying the opposition  tactics instead of having two coaches wasting club resources by both attending a reserve game

Not by my account he wouldn't. Besides, what makes you think that he is always out on the road watching opponents when the academy and reserves are playing?

Despite all the Wilson bashing concerning Lita,it is interesting that Shaun Taylor, the coach who has seen him play the most has come out and said he is not ready for the full  mins yet, in this case both coaches have the best interests of the club and player at heart despite what may seem obvious to us fans.

Well, they would agree if Wilson is getting his information from Taylor, wouldn't they? Perhaps if Wilson had seen Lita more often his opinion of him may differ from Taylor's.

[Guest Orj]

1. I have no idea how often DW attends reserve and academy matches.  He attends some and that is enough for me.  It seems perfectly proper that DW should rely heavily on reports from his backroom staff - that is what they are there for.

2.  If you feel that he should attend more then fair enough - but I disagree.

OK, like you say, we fundamentally disagree in this respect. Fair enough.

3.  I'm happy for SL to ensure that DW acts and does his job in the manner that is required.  If he doesn't then I would expect SL to act.

Agreed, although I still fail to see the direct relevance that this has to the discussion.

4.  If DW is not acting properly under the terms of his contract and should be attending more reserve and academy games (if such things are included) and SL is choosing to "overlook" that fact then I would want SL to stand down too for failing to "manage" the manager.

Agreed and I am 100% happy in this regard as I am sure no defined contractual obligations are being contravened.

5.  I see no evidence that SL or the club is unhappy with the number of times Wilson attends non-first team games.

Me neither, doesn't mean I have to be happy with what I perceive though.

[Spud55]

There are 15 sound rebuttals of this argument. Phillips, Coles, Lita, Hill, Carey, Doherty, Burnell, Woodman, Simpson, Jones, Amankwaah, Fortune, A Brown, M Brown, Hawkins.

Um i don't want to sound like an arse, but that's rubbish IMO.

The players there are picked because it's impossible not to.

Phillips - Best keeper in the division how can you not pick him. Being a pedant , not an academy player.

Hill - Probably the best defender in this division.

Coles - One of the best defenders.

Carey - Not a product of the academy again being a pedant. Was one of our more expirenced players when Willson arived.

Doc - Not easy to drop, when on form.

Woodman - Only rescently broken into the side, after god knows how long of Willson putting up with Bell.

Simpson - When was he in the squad for a league game ?

Jones - Has been shunted off on loan countless times when we have needed him in the side.

M Brown, one start up-front, one good game and then never seen again, classic management don't you think. Scored consistanty in the ressies, yet not given a chance at first team level when needed.

Lita - Given more of a chance than Brown, but how long before he has a poor game and is never seen again.

I'm sorry but IMO Willson only uses youth when he absolutely has to, he has brought few players through by choice if any, and is slowly destroying the confidence of every young player we have, he is worse than Pulis in that respect.

[Guest Orj]

There are 15 sound rebuttals of this argument. Phillips, Coles, Lita, Hill, Carey, Doherty, Burnell, Woodman, Simpson, Jones, Amankwaah, Fortune, A Brown, M Brown, Hawkins.

Quite the contrary, I would argue that many, if not most, of these players only add weight to my argument. My argument isn't whether or not the academy is producing enough decent players. Your list is demonstrable proof of this. However, that these players are being produced doesn't necessarily follow that those players are being used to the greatest effect.

To break your list down and see whether it was under Wilson that these players made their first team debuts is to see whether or not progression from the academy to the first team is likely under Wilson

Phillips - First team regular, debut before Wilson

Coles - First team regular, debut under Wilson

Lita - Reserve team regular, arguably underused, debut under Wilson

Hill - First team regular, debut before Wilson

Carey - First team regular, debut before Wilson

Doherty - First team regular, debut before Wilson

Burnell - First team regular, debut before Wilson

Woodman - First team regular, debut under Wilson

Simpson - Reserve team regular, not made debut

Jones - On loan, debut under Wilson

Amankwaah - First team regular, debut before Wilson

Fortune - Reserve team regular, arguably underused, debut under Wilson

A. Brown - First team regular, debut before Wilson

M. Brown - Reserve team regular, arguably underused, debut before Wilson

Hawkins - On loan, not made debut

I would also add to your list Clist, Rosenior, McGuire, Cleverly, Burke, Shanahan, Lindsey, Malessa, Wright, Meechan, Jordan

Clist - Reserve team regular, arguably underused, debut before Wilson

Rosenior - Released, claims to have left due to discontent at the handling of his breakthrough from the reserves, debut under Wilson

McGuire - Reserve team regular, never made debut

Cleverly - Released, never made debut

Burke - Released, never made debut

Shanahan - Released, never made debut

Lindsey - Released, never made debut

Malessa - Released, never made debut

Wright - Free transfer, debut before Wilson

Meechan - Free transfer, debut before Wilson

Jordan - Sold, debut before Wilson

So, to break this down, while your list may have originally looked like a vindication of Wilson's use of the academy, of the first team regulars in this list, just 2 made their debuts during the last 3.5 years under Wilson.

Those with promise such as Lita get just 2 minutes at the end of a game we are comfortably winning when, according to Wilson, all he needs is experience to be a success. Fortune gets 7 starts during an injury crisis and is promptly frozen out again when it is over. Clist I needn't even start on. Marvin, likewise. Hulbert is another case in point with regard to how Wilson treats youth. Rosenior claims to have left due to what he perceived as his mistreatment at the hands of Wilson.

To summarise, of the 15 players you listed to rebut my argument, I would say that 13 potentially add weight to the argument that Wilson doesn't make effective use of the academy. The only exceptions being Coles and Woodman.

Of the released players at the end of my list, they are either natural wastage that you should expect in an academy, a poor reflection on the academy or a poor reflection on the opportunities to progress within the club. Take your pick.

As a final thought on this section, I would like to hark back to the time of Wilson's appointment when he dumped youth blooded by the trio in favour of experience. Clist, Burnell, Amankwaah and Hulbert were all victims of his youth cull and have arguably struggled to recover in their subsequent time at the club.

All members of the first team squad. All products of the academy or the previous youth system.

Agreed.

All with first team experience.

Incorrect, as mentioned above, unless you count bench-warming or non-competitive first-team matches as first team experience.

Most with the prospect of a good career ahead of them, hopefully at Bristol City.

Arguable under Wilson.

There may well be an argument that suggests Danny should go to more reserve and academy games than he does. One that has been repeated at some length on this thread.

Did I mention that I think he ought to attend more games?

You go on to say 'The academy is simply too valuable a tool not to make effective use of'.  Anything between five and seven of those players are current First Team starters. Don't you consider that 'effective use?'

No I don't consider that "effective use" , I see that as proof that the Academy has served us well in providing players for first team use. I don't consider that Wilson has necessarily used it effectively during his tenure and I believe that this may be partly due to the low level of involvement that he has outside the first team. It's a good return but could potentially be better if utilised the correct way; it's like our league position right now, not that bad but could potentially be so much better.

[redrocks]

Tolstoy eat your heart out.

[PhatWill]

Um i don't want to sound like an arse, but that's rubbish IMO.

The players there are picked because it's impossible not to.

Phillips - Best keeper in the division how can you not pick him. Being a pedant , not an academy player.

Hill - Probably the best defender in this division.

Coles - One of the best defenders.

Carey - Not a product of the academy again being a pedant.  Was one of our more expirenced players when Willson arived.

Doc - Not easy to drop, when on form.

Woodman - Only rescently broken into the side, after god knows how long of Willson putting up with Bell.

Simpson - When was he in the squad for a league game ?

Jones - Has been shunted off on loan countless times when we have needed him in the side.

M Brown, one start up-front, one good game and then never seen again, classic management don't you think.  Scored consistanty in the ressies, yet not given a chance at first team level when needed.

Lita - Given more of a chance than Brown, but how long before he has a poor game and is never seen again.

I'm sorry but IMO Willson only uses youth when he absolutely has to, he has brought few players through by choice if any, and is slowly destroying the confidence of every young player we have, he is worse than Pulis in that respect.

On the contrary (once again) I disagree with absolutely EVERY word you say.

Football is a game of opinions, great innit!

[bucksred]

A couple of points:

Steve Phillips was not Academy, he signed from Paulton Rovers when Benny was in charge, and made his debut in the relegation season(I think??).

Simon Clist was a Spurs discard.

Wasnt Malessa a West Ham discard?

Isnt Lita a Chelsea discard?

Louis Carey, Marvin & Aaron Brown, made their debuts under Wardy/Benny, and debuts then. Carey still makes the same mistakes!

[Dave L]

Quite the contrary, I would argue that many, if not most, of these players only add weight to my argument.  etc etc etc

You're just arguing for the sake of arguing now. Next you'll be trying to convince us that Black is White or that Bristol Rovers are a decent football team. Why don't you just say 'Wilson out' and have done with it.

[Guest Orj]

You're just arguing for the sake of arguing now. Next you'll be trying to convince us that Black is White or that Bristol Rovers are a decent football team. Why don't you just say 'Wilson out' and have done with it.

I see, so you think a forum is better served by people posting "Wilson Out", rather than reasoning why they believe he is falling short?

I am not arguing for arguing's sake, I am arguing because I believe I have a fair point. Presumably, that's why you've stopped.

[cheese]

I see, so you think a forum is better served by people posting "Wilson Out", rather than reasoning why they believe he is falling short?

I am not arguing for arguing's sake, I am arguing because I believe I have a fair point. Presumably, that's why you've stopped.

So, if you think more academy players should be playing who would you bring in and, more importantly, who would you leave out?

Bear in mind that the goal is promotion this season - inexperienced academy players, however good, are unlikely to acheive that - there is a world of difference between academy/reserve team football and the rough and tumble of div2 games.

C

[Dave L]

Presumably, that's why you've stopped.

You're entitled to your own opinions, even if you do feel obliged to state them in such a sneering tone. I've stated mine. I have nothing more to say on the subject.

[Guest Orj]

'You're entitled to your own opinions, even if you do feel obliged to state them in such a sneering tone.'

I trust the irony of this statement isn't wasted on you when your previous post on the thread was this:

'Next you'll be trying to convince us that Black is White or that Bristol Rovers are a decent football team. Why don't you just say 'Wilson out' and have done with it.'

'I've stated mine. I have nothing more to say on the subject.'

Very well. It appears that the best counter argument you can present to the points I have made at some length is 'I don't care much for your tone.' I think that speaks volumes.

[Spud55]

On the contrary (once again) I disagree with absolutely EVERY word you say.

Football is a game of opinions, great innit!

Nice to see another well reasoned reply from phatwill, not just a load of unqualified nonsense then

[redrocks]

I trust the irony of this statement isn't wasted on you when your previous post on the thread was this:

Very well. It appears that the best counter argument you can present to the points I have made at some length is 'I don't care much for your tone.' I think that speaks volumes.

I feel a career in the diplomatic service beckons for Orj.