Taylor Report...

[BB.]

I read thisTaylor Report question on the Steve L bit and just wandered if anybody has any news if safe standing is closer to happening or not?

I've been led to believe that we can scrap the Taylor Report now that he has passed away, if the authorities so desired.

Would people on OTIB want terracing to return?

Safe Standing Poll

I think it would help improve the level in noise of ever silenting stadia up and down the country with people on their feet, getting air to their lungs and all that!!

It would also make football open to a wider section of society in my opinion.

I for one think there should be a choice of seating or terracing in all stadiums.

Bring back terracing!!

[Guest WillsbridgeRed]

Terracing would be great, but wont happen because.

1) The post 96 fans have no stomache for it.

2) Clubs don't want it, as ticket prices would be lower

[badger22]

Terracing would be great, but wont happen because.

1) The post 96 fans have no stomache for it.

2) Clubs don't want it, as ticket prices would be lower

I for one would welcome terracing back.

[southvillekiddy]

Chesterfield are apparently planning a terraced area in their new stadium.

Seems to me there is grass roots support for this idea across all the leagues.

If we have moved on from the "bad old days" of soccer hooliganism and have the technology to make our grounds secure, why cannot this idea be applied at Ashton Gate.

[Guest WillsbridgeRed]

Chesterfield are apparently planning a terraced area in their new stadium.

Seems to me there is grass roots support for this idea across all the leagues.

If we have moved on from the "bad old days" of soccer hooliganism and have the technology to make our grounds secure, why cannot this idea be applied at Ashton Gate.

It wouldnt attract the type of fan City want ie businessmen on corparate jollies, women and kids

[Guest North Street]

There is no reason why a club at our level cannot have a standing area.Chesterfield indeed are looking into this but that club has supporter representation on their board.There are terraced areas at many German grounds which are perfectly safe.

Different sport but Irelands new rugby ground New Croke Park which will hold 70,000 is going to have 13,000 seats.As stated there is grass roots support for this and the football supporters federation are involved in design of a "safe standing area". Terracing is no more dangerous than sitting so i would hesitate to use the word safe to describe either

As for Bristol City? This lot simply are not interested as the wishes of BCFC fans do not come into it.Unless it attracts new monied support forget it!

fans census concerning "safe standing" http://www.footballfanscensus.com/results_latest.html?id=62

[BB.]

This is what it looks like in Germany. Looks proper good! I got these images from a previous thread from man in black.

This lot simply are not interested as the wishes of BCFC fans do not come into it.Unless it attracts new monied support forget it!

I reckon it would attract the old school supporter back. I understand that quite a few people stopped going when stadiums became all seater.

No one will be forced to go there. I read the link from North Street and it says people voted 25%-31% of the ground (or something like that) to be terraced.

Does anyone know if it is any closer to happening or not?

Bring back terracing

[Guest WillsbridgeRed]

Back in 1997 Labour pledged support for the return of terracing. I think with sky high prices in the Prem, the scrapping of the Taylor report is a real possibility.

The Health and Safety act makes the Taylor Report obselete.

[Guest leepeacock's50phead]

Back in 1997 Labour pledged support for the return of terracing. I think with sky high prices in the Prem, the scrapping of the Taylor report is a real possibility.

The Health and Safety act makes the Taylor Report obselete.

Wasnt the Taylor report due to the trouble at Hillsborough?

Now we know it was the fault of the police, the report should be obsolete anyway.

after all, it was a totally over the top response which has certain similarities in the attack on our civil rights by the govt post 9/11

[One Team In Keynsham]

Terracing would be great, but wont happen because.

1) The post 96 fans have no stomache for it.

2) Clubs don't want it, as ticket prices would be lower

1) screw 'em: let them have the seats

2) on a ticket by ticket basis yes, but you would need to also factor in crowd capacity between terrace and all seater based upon a set square-footage of ground.

that said, I am not holding my breath on this one.

[Guest WillsbridgeRed]

The idea of safe standing is not to have crowded areas like previous terraces. As a result I would not have thought that capacity would be raised by replacing seating wih terracing. This is my guess, I don't know for a fact.

This is all stuff of dreams, City certainly wont be pioneers in any move, and any time this subject comes up in the press the hysterical few start shouting "hillsbrough"

[BB.]

The idea of safe standing is not to have crowded areas like previous terraces. As a result I would not have thought that capacity would be raised by replacing seating wih terracing. This is my guess, I don't know for a fact.

This is all stuff of dreams, City certainly wont be pioneers in any move, and any time this subject comes up in the press the hysterical few start shouting "hillsbrough"

I heard even the families of the people who died say they know it wasn't due to standing and that they are angry and gutted that the people responsable for the deaths won't own up, so justice can't be served.

[Guest hilltop red]

The idea of safe standing is not to have crowded areas like previous terraces. As a result I would not have thought that capacity would be raised by replacing seating wih terracing. This is my guess, I don't know for a fact.

"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/w...ues/4458990.stm

http://www.truststfc.co.uk/img/standing.jpg From werder bremen. this would probabley be more acheivable in england

[Guest North Street]

Wasnt the Taylor report due to the trouble at Hillsborough?

Now we know it was the fault of the police, the report should be obsolete anyway.

after all, it was a totally over the top response which has certain similarities in the attack on our civil rights by the govt post 9/11

The Taylor report was about crowd safety and not linked to "trouble at Hillsborough"! This is constantly over looked but there was "no" trouble between opposing fans that day and the report blamed the police and over crowding.It was not an over the top response at the time because the report was only offering recommendations which were turned into the footbal spectators act by the Tories who ignored parts of Taylors recommendations.

[WTFiGO!?!]

Feel obliged to comment due to this being a topic so close to my heart although I know it will make bu99er all difference to anything.

City's board of directors and the FA - through this **** Taylor are completely shooting themselves in the foot by alienating a large section of football fans from their clubs, particulary through this issue. City are also taking the complete p1ss over the East End.

From next season thats it for me.

[Guest North Street]

Back in 1997 Labour pledged support for the return of terracing. I think with sky high prices in the Prem, the scrapping of the Taylor report is a real possibility.

The Health and Safety act makes the Taylor Report obselete.

There is at present a labour working party looking into matters regarding topics such as standing at football but is iu now eighteen months at least into looking and ...?The Tories do not seem to have any opinion on the matter, the liberal party are in favour of safe standing areas along with the football supporters federation.The Taylor report is indeed out of date but seems to have taken on a role of the bible while the blue print for football from the football supporters federation get's ignored.

[BB.]

The Taylor report was about crowd safety and not linked to "trouble at Hillsborough"! This is constantly over looked but there was "no" trouble between opposing fans that day and the report blamed the police and over crowding.It was not an over the top response at the time because the report was only offering recommendations which were turned into the footbal spectators act by the Tories who ignored parts of Taylors recommendations.

Out of interest what parts did the tories overlook?

[sephjnr]

http://www.truststfc.co.uk/img/standing.jpg From werder bremen. this would probabley be more acheivable in england

Wouldn't the seats be a little superfluous? not only do the scaffolds break the seated view up, it would require the people in front to be seated as well...

[Guest North Street]

Out of interest what parts did the tories overlook?

Taylor wanted a rethink in the way supporters were treated by the police clubs and authorities as he felt they were held in contempt by them, more consualtaion with fans, better leadership from the football bodies,the way the press and tv operated and to look at the root causes of why Hillsborough happened. The Conservatives brought in new laws and took on board the issue of seating but did not address Taylors observatioins that football supporters were being treated badly by the Police and the clubs.

That is "my" take on it but all the recommendations were certainly not followed.

[Wurzel City]

I read thisTaylor Report question on the Steve L bit and just wandered if anybody has any news if safe standing is closer to happening or not?

I've been led to believe that we can scrap the Taylor Report now that he has passed away, if the authorities so desired.

Would people on OTIB want terracing to return?

Safe Standing Poll

I think it would help improve the level in noise of ever silenting stadia up and down the country with people on their feet, getting air to their lungs and all that!!

It would also make football open to a wider section of society in my opinion.

I for one think there should be a choice of seating or terracing in all stadiums.

Bring back terracing!!

I know this is not scientific but according to Fans polls City suppporters are heavily in favour of opening the East End, safe standing areas and having a club that listens to them. Somewhere amongst that even somebody as dense as me can see a theme developing!

http://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=48213

http://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=49650

http://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=47264

[BB.]

This is a summery of the first Taylor report, before it got changed by "selective evidence" according to

http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/taylor.shtm

1. The immediate cause of the Disaster was the failure to cut off access to the central pens once gate C had been opened. This caused the overcrowding which led to the Disaster.

2. The central pens (3 and 4) were already overfull because there was no numerical control of entry nor any effective visual monitoring of crowd density.

3. Under the strain of overcrowding in Pen 3, a barrier collapsed, exacerbated by what Taylor referred to as the "sluggish reaction and response when the crush occurred". Lack of leadership and the small size and number of gates in the perimeter fencing hindered rescue attempts.

4. Gate C, an 'exit' gate between the inner concourse and the outside, was opened by the police because of the dangerous congestion at the turnstiles. There was no recognition, either by the club or the police, that unless fans arrived steadily over a long, drawn-out period the turnstiles would not be capable of coping with the large numbers involved. This was made worse by the fact that the operational order and police tactics did not consider the possibility of a large concentration of late arrivals. This situation, according to Taylor, was made worse by a drunken minority and the club's confused and inadequate signs and ticketing.

Makes interesting reading, apparently there were two reports from Taylor. Link

[WTFiGO!?!]

according to Fans polls City suppporters are heavily in favour of opening the East End, safe standing areas and having a club that listens to them.

1- The East End is shut

2- There are no standing areas

3- So what does this tell us about the clubs board???

love you

[BB.]

1- The East End is shut

2- There are no standing areas

3- So what does this tell us about the clubs board???

love you

Good point WTFiGO!?!. The board could do something about the East End, but I think the terracing issue is going to take all Clubs in football to stand together and fight for the right to STAND!! It could be done and although City can't fight the rule on our own and win, we can do our little bit to help, and if all Clubs did just a little bit, it would go a long way!!

I don't know if anybody has read the link yet, from a couple of posts up, but it is revealing! It says about how the police hand picked evidence for Taylor to make his report from. Taylor had already made one report that the famillies were happy with, but had to revize it but with only using the police's "selected evidence". I'm not sure how many people realise that there were two reports, I certainly didn't before

I read the link

All clubs could do a campaign together like the Kick Racism Out of Football campaign, but a Kick Standism Out of Football one!!

We could hold up cards and wear T-shirts and and ummm.....Who's with me?!?!?!

KICK STANDISM OUT OF FOOTBALL!!!!

[Guest JJ365]

Yeh bring back standing I say.

Steve L and his buddies on the board should listen to the fans for a change. The atmosphere would be alot better with standing like the Blackthorn End at Rovers which always seems to be loud.

LISTEN TO THE FANS FOR ONCE.

[southy354]

If you can get that many fans to come to are game would be good but the prices would have to change say £2 a ticket and i think a lot more fans would come.

[England]

Now we know it was the fault of the police, the report should be obsolete anyway.

The major cause of the disaster was the drunken Liverpool "fans" arriving late - allegedly - terracing should never be reintroduced from a safety and comfort point of view.

One occasion, two opinions

Anyone disagreeing with my point of view can p#ss off and vote me back as moaner of the year

[BB.]

The major cause of the disaster was the drunken Liverpool "fans" arriving late - allegedly - terracing should never be reintroduced from a safety and comfort point of view.

One occasion, two opinions

Anyone disagreeing with my point of view can p#ss off and vote me back as moaner of the year

Allready voted though England. Didn't bother with the negative votes though except the fishmonger one and I'd be surprised if any one else got that vote except the one and only.

Anyway,

Terracing has allready been reintroduced in Germany!

It's also at many lower league grounds in the country. If it was really that dangerous, would it be allowed at all?

Has anybody read the link above yet and learnt anything new? What do people make of the assessment in the link?

Sounds like dodgy policemen corrupting the report to save their own skins to me!

[Wurzel City]

The major cause of the disaster was the drunken Liverpool "fans" arriving late - allegedly - terracing should never be reintroduced from a safety and comfort point of view.

One occasion, two opinions

Anyone disagreeing with my point of view can p#ss off and vote me back as moaner of the year

Still reading the Sun England!

[Wurzel City]

Safe standing day

Wycombe Wdrs v Leyton Orient

29th December

http://www.standupsitdown.co.uk/

[Guest North Street]

[England]

Still reading the Sun England!

Just for accuracy, I honestly don't think I have ever read the Sun - I understood that was impossible as it's all pictures.

Hell of a coincidence though that the two most recent major footballing disasters involving fan trouble should both involve Liverpool fans.

[bucksred]

A terrace in the East End, quality. gotta be done!!

[southvillekiddy]

just visited the www.standupsitdown.co.uk and made an entry in the guestbook

Cannot go to Wycombe on Dec 29th for the "Standup Sit down" day but have suggested to the campaign organisers that a "Stand Up Sit down" sticker might be produced that all interested fans of all clubs could stick on their club shirt to publicise the campaign. How many of you would do this at Ashton Gate?

[BB.]

just visited the www.standupsitdown.co.uk and made an entry in the guestbook

Cannot go to Wycombe on Dec 29th for the "Standup Sit down" day but have suggested to the campaign organisers that a "Stand Up Sit down" sticker might be produced that all interested fans of all clubs could stick on their club shirt to publicise the campaign. How many of you would do this at Ashton Gate?

What did they do at "stand up sit down" day? How did it go?

Are there any cards that can be held up to raise awareness about the return of terracing?

Concidering that most people believe that standing up wasn't the cause of any disaster then surely a return of terracing should be straight forward? No?

A) How come they have it in Germany and lower league football grounds?

B) How come it is safe at a concert in a football ground but not when there is a match going on?

Bring back terracing

[Red Skin]

just visited the www.standupsitdown.co.uk and made an entry in the guestbook

Cannot go to Wycombe on Dec 29th for the "Standup Sit down" day but have suggested to the campaign organisers that a "Stand Up Sit down" sticker might be produced that all interested fans of all clubs could stick on their club shirt to publicise the campaign. How many of you would do this at Ashton Gate?

Be interested to see what happens after 10s of thousands of England fans come back from Germany after "surviving" standing up to watch a game. If the Football Supporters Federation (or whatever they're called) can't use that to create an upsurge in support for standing then they'll be missing out on a trick.

Personally, I think it's in the club's interest as well as the fans. Standing allows more fans to occupy the existing ground removing the need to build bigger stands or move to a new ground to get more people in. Yes some updating will be required but not the wholesale planning permission needed to increase the height of existing stands to add another tier or for moving to a new site.

The other advantage that with standing the ground can be occupied at half capacity and still appear "full". Half capacity at a all seater stadium looks half-empty which leads to a further degradation in atmosphere.

Beside, if you need a sneaky leak and can't be bothered queing for the bogs, it's much easier to take one standing than sitting - for the lads at least.

Safe Standing Now.

The atmosphere would be alot better with standing .

Sing when you're standing,

You only sing when you're standing,

Sing when you're standing,

You only......

[WTFiGO!?!]

I've found this poster I picked up pinned to the side of the Dolman,coming out of the East End dated 27th Jan, Vs Colchester. no year. Its's stupendously pro bringing City fans home. I'm just going to try and sort it out as my signiture I think.

This can't be quite like the anger of having your club relocate to Bath and then returning home to a Rugby gound 10 years later but WTF!?!

I'm fairly pleased we've not become the outcome of some coorporate franchise or what ever, been forced to leave Bristol and move down to the bottom end of Cornwell, then obviously be forced to reform but it does need sorting.

These are not actually consoladating enough thoughts.

It's a bit like comparing our goal difference to Crewe's.

[Guest]

I've found this poster I picked up pinned to the side of the Dolman,coming out of the East End dated 27th Jan, Vs Colchester. no year. Its's stupendously pro bringing City fans home. I'm just going to try and sort it out as my signiture I think.

Bow Legged Chicken produced them I think, if you PM him he may have the original files.

[southvillekiddy]

What did they do at "stand up sit down" day? How did it go?

Are there any cards that can be held up to raise awareness about the return of terracing?

Concidering that most people believe that standing up wasn't the cause of any disaster then surely a return of terracing should be straight forward? No?

A) How come they have it in Germany and lower league football grounds?

B) How come it is safe at a concert in a football ground but not when there is a match going on?

Bring back terracing

Dear BB I'm with you on using placards, signs, flags, whatever to publicise what I sense is growing support for the return of terracing (now we have the technology and experience post 1996 to make it "safer").

Have not yet checked out how it went at Wycombe Wanderers on Dec 29th with stand up /sit down day.

As far as I am aware the campaign is wisely built around the idea of choice - do I prefer to sit or stand when I support? You can't say one set of fans are better can you?

Its ironic that football supporters are denied choice at a time when consumer power is so powerfel elsewhere. Do the Boards of football clubs really know what is best for us?

Personally I want to stand and I can sing, shout and support more enjoyably and more effectively in my opinion if I am standing. Its a strong part of football culture.

So how do you want to start BB? Do you have access to printing resources?

[BB.]

Dear BB I'm with you on using placards, signs, flags, whatever to publicise what I sense is growing support for the return of terracing (now we have the technology and experience post 1996 to make it "safer").

Have not yet checked out how it went at Wycombe Wanderers on Dec 29th with stand up /sit down day.

As far as I am aware the campaign is wisely built around the idea of choice - do I prefer to sit or stand when I support? You can't say one set of fans are better can you?

Its ironic that football supporters are denied choice at a time when consumer power is so powerfel elsewhere. Do the Boards of football clubs really know what is best for us?

Personally I want to stand and I can sing, shout and support more enjoyably and more effectively in my opinion if I am standing. Its a strong part of football culture.

So how do you want to start BB? Do you have access to printing resources?

Yeah, I think there should be a choice. I reckon that around 25% of stadiums should be a terraced area.

Does anyone know if Germany are using the terracing in the World Cup? I heard somewhere that they are putting the seats back in for it and then taking them out afterwards, I don't know if this is true or not though!

Does anyone know how it went in Wycombe??

I don't have the means to produce the placards etc.. myself, I was hoping that the campaign organisers would be able to send stickers, flags and cards to Clubs up and down the Country...

I think it should be a simple "YES" to terracing from the people in authority to be honest (who ever they are), now we all know that standing is safe.

They have an area in every football ground for disabled/families/rich people/people who want to sit down, I've probably missed others too, all we ask is for an area for people who like to stand up, sing, shout etc... Would you say it's a type of descrimination?? Might be a bit harsh, but still!!

[WTFiGO!?!]

Bow Legged Chicken produced them I think, if you PM him he may have the original files.

Thankyou for the interst mate. Am so computererly (that is a word right?) under developed that I'll probably get my more 'at one with IT in general' mate to come over and sort things out with the use of a digi camara and the like as files may confuse me and last time that happened I had to spent the week sat here as a giant turnip. It was more of an inconveniance than anything but the shock element certainly warned of the dangers of getting confused I can tell you.

Out of interest, Is anyone up for getting a 'Talking absolute b0110x even when sober' Forum up and running?

I s'pose it is covered under the City Forum with most posts on here. Only joking of course!

By the way...

Am completely in support of BB and the SouthvilleKiddie.

Get Up Stand Up - Stand Up for your rights ......... Don't give up the fight

Power to the People

All I wanna say is that, they don't really care about us

etc etc

[22A]

It is quicker and safer to evacuate an all standing area as opposed to a seated area as a people are already on their feet and b. there are no seats to trap feet under. As regards fears of a return to hooliganism; not in this day & age of crowd segregation.

Remember the Terms of Reference issued to Lord Taylor before he prepared his report were to find ways of making grounds safer AND to bring about the gentryfication of the game. Nuff said.

I am in the second half of my life, but I prefer standing to watch football. But why are football fans treated differently to those of other sports. You are allowed to stand and drink alcohol whilst watching a first class cricket or rugby match, but not football. Is this because they are establishment past times? My son is at Uni in Huddersfield. He and some mates went to the stadium one midweek for a Rugby League game and stood whilst drinking. Three days later they went to watch Hud Utd and the same stewards in the same block told them to sit down and banned them from drinking or else they'd be out. :@

[Guest Cider_Army]

I would be up for joining any sort of City fans for Standing pressure group which could perhaps be started, hand out placrads and the like.

As only a fair lad of 20 (well 21 on Monday) the only real atmosphere I have had was when the EE was opened. Since then sitting in relative slience throughout games is awful. It's important to realise that we don't want the whole ground all seater and people have as much right so sit during a game as we do to stand. but still if the safety thing is no longer an issue surely it can be looked at.

[Guest Stand Up Sit Down]

Good thread and thanks to those of you who've already signed our petition and become members - if you've not already done so... www.standupsitdown.co.uk

The Safe Standing Day at Wycombe went well, with Sky giving the evening coverage along with several newspapers. Around 300 more tickets than normal were sold for the terrace, which isn't bad at all considering the time of year, weather and the fact the game was on Sky.

With regard to the Taylor Report, Stand Up Sit Down will soon be releasing an article on that very subject. In short, we are concerned that the authorities are using Hillsborough as an attempt to stifle debate and that there are some perhaps little known facts about that day that need to be brough into the open. It's not something we particularly wanted to do, but equally we feel it is all too convenient for the authorities to continue to ignore supporters wishes by just saying "Hillsborough" and heavily implying that terracing/standing kills. It will also address the widely held view that a return to standing would be a return to hooliganism. I'll post a copy on this site within the next week or so.

www.standupsitdown.co.uk

[BB.]

Good thread and thanks to those of you who've already signed our petition and become members - if you've not already done so... www.standupsitdown.co.uk

The Safe Standing Day at Wycombe went well, with Sky giving the evening coverage along with several newspapers. Around 300 more tickets than normal were sold for the terrace, which isn't bad at all considering the time of year, weather and the fact the game was on Sky.

With regard to the Taylor Report, Stand Up Sit Down will soon be releasing an article on that very subject. In short, we are concerned that the authorities are using Hillsborough as an attempt to stifle debate and that there are some perhaps little known facts about that day that need to be brough into the open. It's not something we particularly wanted to do, but equally we feel it is all too convenient for the authorities to continue to ignore supporters wishes by just saying "Hillsborough" and heavily implying that terracing/standing kills. It will also address the widely held view that a return to standing would be a return to hooliganism. I'll post a copy on this site within the next week or so.

www.standupsitdown.co.uk

Cheers for your reply Stand Up, I wasn't expecting that!

Can I ask, in your honest opinion, has terracing ever been the cause of a tragedy?

I read a link on one of my posts further up and it was saying how Taylor was forced to use selected evidence given to him by police to make up his final report. This second report was quite a lot different to his origional!

[Guest Stand Up Sit Down]

[WTFiGO!?!]

Yeah, the Hillsborough disaster wasn't an issue of sitting/standing was it? It was an issue of squeezing to many people into a to smaller area and having them penned in by metal fences.

There would be a similar disaster in the Atyeo or any other seated stand under those conditions but would they ban seating I ask you?

Why can't the powers that be see these things or is there something slightly more sinester going on?

WTFiGO!?!

[southvillekiddy]

Good thread and thanks to those of you who've already signed our petition and become members - if you've not already done so... www.standupsitdown.co.uk

The Safe Standing Day at Wycombe went well, with Sky giving the evening coverage along with several newspapers. Around 300 more tickets than normal were sold for the terrace, which isn't bad at all considering the time of year, weather and the fact the game was on Sky.

With regard to the Taylor Report, Stand Up Sit Down will soon be releasing an article on that very subject. In short, we are concerned that the authorities are using Hillsborough as an attempt to stifle debate and that there are some perhaps little known facts about that day that need to be brough into the open. It's not something we particularly wanted to do, but equally we feel it is all too convenient for the authorities to continue to ignore supporters wishes by just saying "Hillsborough" and heavily implying that terracing/standing kills. It will also address the widely held view that a return to standing would be a return to hooliganism. I'll post a copy on this site within the next week or so.

www.standupsitdown.co.uk

Dear standup sit down thanks for the info on the day at Wycombe.

It seems to me that there is a decent number of us into this campaign - you are connected, would you please act as a link for us in helping publicise the Stand Up Sit Down.

Several of us including BB are interested in posters etc.. to display at City matches. I've looked on the site but cannot find information.

As a confirmed stander, I'd have a go at making a pilot run of City specific badges saying something like :

"Dear Steve. L

I"ve paid and I'd like to stand please"

(with the BCFC badge and the www.standupsitdown.co.uk address)

what do you all think?