Lee Johnson (merged)

[Tunley Legend]

Well I'm actually trying to create our own version of the utility for the sake of the facts and statistics, but they just gets glossed over by thes LJ ramblings.

Lets abandon the forum in favour of the Red Zeppelin definitive statistics guide. Why bother with discussion, opinion and debate when Red Zeppelin's pie chart can give you all the answers on quirky statistics such as "who made the most grass coverage" (I'm sure that was the term you used the other day).

Or perhaps we can just carry on with the debates we have here whilst you put anyone who disagrees with your opinion on ignore?

[Tunley Legend]

I'd like to see the statistical evidence that supports what you say. Do you have a link?

Found this on Actim which shows Johnson ahead of Carey:

http://actimindex.files.wordpress.com/2008...dex_top100b.gif

If statistical evidence is the be all and end all then why don't we ask Wednesday to name their price for Marcus Tudgay and just pay it? Why do managers send scouts to watch players and then have a final look themselves before buying them if all they've got to do is have a quick peek at the Opta index?

I don't know much about this index but does a thirty yard pass between two defenders creating a fantastic chance for the centre forward earn more points than a first time ten yard ball back to the centre half? Does it measure an important tackle versus a standard tackle in the centre of the park? Does it recognise clever defending from Carey where he moves a quicker forward into the position he wants him so that he cannot cause too much danger? If you bottle out of a tackle and the opposition has a goalscoring chance do you lose points? Do you get extra points for reading the game and stopping a situation arising in the first place? For example, does a goalkeeper who is quick off his line and prevents himself having to save half a dozen shots in 90 minutes get more points than the one who is slow off his line and has to try and make the saves?. Or, as I suspect, does it just measure the bleedin obvious and allocate points on that basis?

[Drew Peacock]

So you purport to know and represent what most fans think? Not a politician are you?

No. He's the village idiot.

Sits on a fence sucking on a straw.

Don't think of trying a conversation with him.

[Red Zeppelin]

Lets abandon the forum in favour of the Red Zeppelin definitive statistics guide. Why bother with discussion, opinion and debate when Red Zeppelin's pie chart can give you all the answers on quirky statistics such as "who made the most grass coverage" (I'm sure that was the term you used the other day).

Or perhaps we can just carry on with the debates we have here whilst you put anyone who disagrees with your opinion on ignore?

Oh dear.

Nothing wrong with 'grass coverage' at all. I prefer a player like Elliot who gets around the whole pitch a lot more than someone like Skuse, and has the ability to get forward and back time after time for 90 minutes unlike e.g. Noble, which means they work harder for the team. Personally I consider workrate to be an important part of our game. But we digress.

You seem to have a phobia of statistics?? Where you're wrong is that noone is trying to definitively prove anything with statistcs and draw a line under anything ending the debate, they are just interesting and add to the debate which is what a forum is for, not sarcastic and childish arguments. Let's move on.

[Tunley Legend]

Oh dear.

Nothing wrong with 'grass coverage' at all. I prefer a player like Elliot who gets around the whole pitch a lot more than someone like Skuse, and has the ability to get forward and back time after time for 90 minutes unlike e.g. Noble, which means they work harder for the team. Personally I consider workrate to be an important part of our game. But we digress.

You seem to have a phobia of statistics?? Where you're wrong is that noone is trying to definitively prove anything with statistcs and draw a line under anything ending the debate, they are just interesting and add to the debate which is what a forum is for, not sarcastic and childish arguments. Let's move on.

I've got no problem with you using statistics to make a valid point as long as you don't then dismiss the opposite OPINION as rambling.

By the way, do you know the answer to my question on the OPTA index? I do not have a phobia of statistics but I do believe that football is based as much, if not more, on subjective opinion as it is on definite facts. Otherwise many Premier League clubs would have been in for Stuart Fleetwood last season on the basis he had scored around 20 goals by December.

[Tales From The Front]

Do you honestly and truly believe Gary Johnson will drop Lee Johnson through fan pressure? Because to me, he's a man of principle and he's not about to bend to a few disgruntled fans on a forum. If you agree that he won't, then why post that you expect him to? If he picks his son (sorry, Lee Johnson), we have to believe he does it for professional reasons, otherwise you can't be a Gary Johnson fan.

The fact is, I don't rate Lee Johnson. If you would care to trace back my posts on him in other threads, you would see that I've been a critic of his in the past, even myself suggesting nepotism.

So you see, it's strange that I find myself "defending" him while you mistakenly consider me someone who rates him.

This whole thread was started because Lee Johnson made a mistake and has developed into another "does Lee Johnson deserve to be in the team?" argument.

My stance in this thread has been that the whole thing has been over-blown to a ridiculous extent and that is where I'm coming from - an attempt to get a sense of proportion.

At the end of last season and in the build-up to this season, Gary Johnson could do no wrong and 99% of fans thought he was doing a fabulous job for the club. All of a sudden, Lee Johnson makes a bad mistake and Gary Johnson's motives for selecting Lee Johnson are being questioned.

So much for "We're Bristol City, we always believe", eh?

Personally, I couldn't give a tinker's cus whether Lee Johnson plays for Bristol City or not. He is a competent player, but not irreplaceable. The most worrying aspect of this thread is that the knives are out so quickly. Who's going to be the next scapegoat if we hit a bad patch and actually lose a game or two?

...and how long would those threads be?

Youv'e got me wrong I'm expecting no one to bow to fan pressure I'm a paying customer of many years and like you I'm intiltled to an opinion. I would disagree that this issue has only just been raised those at Loftus Road last season know different. So far this year I've spent in excess of £500 and counting, no doubt you have to. If I brought that value in Shares in Hargreave Lansdown I would have a voice at the AGM however unpalatable that might be to those in authority.

All I'm saying is that I beleive Lee Johnson does not warrant his place in the team no more no less, no other agenda about his family tree. I would have to be honest and say I am concerned how some players are more equal than others and that goes beyond the father son relationship.

I find it quite worrying that a thread was started on this forum before the season about Weale replacing Basso even before he had his injury and that Basso has had to play like a premier league goal keeper last season just to keep his place. And yes I'm cynical but it wouldn't surprise me if that thread was a bit of spin to test the water. Yes its rdiculous but thats the society we live in these days.

I respect the majority of what Gary Johnson has achieved to date, the discipline, the football at times has been first class By biggest concern as a fan of many years is that this football club truely is on the threshold of greatness but I fear an achiles heal. I truely hope I'm wrong and those of you with an opposite point of view are right and that is the honest truth I hope I'm wrong.

And by the way, I have been on my mat praying to the west "always believing" since 1978!

By the way I'm A Bristol City fan and takean active interst in what's best for the football club. That at the present time is Gary Johnson, just because I do not agree with everything he does does not make me any less of a fan. I think he has done a fantastic job and hope he continues to do so. I can't believe Keith Millen agrees with everything he does....do you agree with everything your boss says, I doubt it.

[Red Zeppelin]

I've got no problem with you using statistics to make a valid point as long as you don't then dismiss the opposite OPINION as rambling.

By the way, do you know the answer to my question on the OPTA index? I do not have a phobia of statistics but I do believe that football is based as much, if not more, on subjective opinion as it is on definite facts. Otherwise many Premier League clubs would have been in for Stuart Fleetwood last season on the basis he had scored around 20 goals by December.

There was no 'opposite' opinion, there was no opinion or reaction at all! I guess I didn't mean rambling to be precise.

I agree with your view on the Opta Index, as the value and skill of actions wouldn't appear to be accounted for. But in addition to that statistics can open even the sharpest eyes to the reality and facts of games. The good play of many players can be taken for granted or clouded by a couple of errors. This thread is full of people slating LJ for one reason or another, and others have been saying we don't know the facts and statistics, hence I thought I'd carry out some research. It's true, neither subjective views nor statistics give the whole picture, but they should be used together to get a better idea.

[freezer]

You have misread my post. I have not commented on Gary Johnson or used the word nepotism. I have said in another thread that I am willing to support the argument that GJ knows best. I was referring to fans who come on here and say that he cannot be dropped (and they do).

I have one criticism of Lee Johnson and it is a criticism that does not relate to the goal on Saturday and one that neither you nor anyone else has answered.

Why does Lee Johnson possess the right to pull out of 50/50 tackles, without criticism, when the fans expect EVERY OTHER PLAYER in the side to stick their foot in and at least make an attempt to win the ball? If Noble came in, bottled a tackle and the opposition player planted it beyond Weale/Basso into the far corner there would be uproar on here. That should have happened on three occasions on Saturday but luckily for us Weale made a decent save from Commons and the Derby players benefitting from the other two situations lacked composure.

I think it is fairly clear what I want to see. If people really do have an agenda against Gary Johnson that you don't like then you stick to criticising them and leave me alone.

I totally agree with this, well put Greebo.

I can forgive the occasional bad pass, the little lobbed-up ball that travels about 20 feet and does nothing and other errors, but what I cannot abide in ANY Bristol City player is an apparent lack of bottle. It's the one thing that will get me annoyed with and shouting at that player, and I am a quite supportive fan compared to some around me.

Praise when praise is due and bullock when that is due methinks. I'm not asking for a Gerry Gow like performance but the ability to tackle and challenge for the ball must have a place in The Championship.

By the way, can anyone name another midfield player in The Championship who doesn't tackle - sorry I'll amend that - sometimes doesn't/bottles tackles?

Come on Lee, if you go in hard you don't get hurt, just go in! He's a good little player.

[bucksred]

Why don't you big girls blouses on either side of this alleged "debate" give it a fkn drink. This whole argument is revolving round in ever decreasing circles, and has become goddamn predictable with LJ haters and LJ lovers taking up more entrenched positions than the German Army on Vimy Ridge. Actually come to think of it, that was more sense all in all.

new balls please. ta.

[freezer]

Why don't you big girls blouses on either side of this alleged "debate" give it a fkn drink. This whole argument is revolving round in ever decreasing circles, and has become goddamn predictable with LJ haters and LJ lovers taking up more entrenched positions than the German Army on Vimy Ridge. Actually come to think of it, that was more sense all in all.

new balls please. ta.

I don't think it's a case of being a 'hater or a 'lover' as you put it, surely people are entitled to have an opinion without being labelled as such.

'Big girls blouses' nice touch. And in my opinion comparing it as having less sense than a military bloodbath is pathetic.

Change ends.

[cheese]

If statistical evidence is the be all and end all then why don't we ask Wednesday to name their price for Marcus Tudgay and just pay it? Why do managers send scouts to watch players and then have a final look themselves before buying them if all they've got to do is have a quick peek at the Opta index?

I don't know much about this index but does a thirty yard pass between two defenders creating a fantastic chance for the centre forward earn more points than a first time ten yard ball back to the centre half? Does it measure an important tackle versus a standard tackle in the centre of the park? Does it recognise clever defending from Carey where he moves a quicker forward into the position he wants him so that he cannot cause too much danger? If you bottle out of a tackle and the opposition has a goalscoring chance do you lose points? Do you get extra points for reading the game and stopping a situation arising in the first place? For example, does a goalkeeper who is quick off his line and prevents himself having to save half a dozen shots in 90 minutes get more points than the one who is slow off his line and has to try and make the saves?. Or, as I suspect, does it just measure the bleedin obvious and allocate points on that basis?

If you had bothered to read the post I was responding to then perhaps my reply would have made more sense to you. To save you the bother let me fill you in. I was replying to the fact that someone claimed that Lee Johnson had a higher percentage of mis-placed passes than Louis Carey. That single fact can be proven or otherwise by statistics - I offered a stat. of my own just as an exempler.

As for the rest of your post - I agree, if it was all down to stats then we could all manage a football team at the highest level and everyone would be bored to tears.

[Guest DR DICKNOSE]

If you had bothered to read the post I was responding to then perhaps my reply would have made more sense to you. To save you the bother let me fill you in. I was replying to the fact that someone claimed that Lee Johnson had a higher percentage of mis-placed passes than Louis Carey. That single fact can be proven or otherwise by statistics - I offered a stat. of my own just as an exempler.

As for the rest of your post - I agree, if it was all down to stats then we could all manage a football team at the highest level and everyone would be bored to tears.

I wish id never bloody started this post now!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[downendcity]

I wish id never bloody started this post now!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Too late.

The last week has seen an interesting mix of posts and quite a few posters are having a dig at fellow fans who are critical of the way things are going. It is important to look at facts when attempting to criticise, so at the risk of apearing stupid, here's my attempt.

Our squad is not good enough to get promotion as we we need more cover up front, in midfield and in defence - in fact everywhere.

Lee Johnson is not good enough, fast enough, big enough and australian enough as it is common knowledge that we should not have sold Nick Carle ( who was Australian enough). Lee J should be dropped but everyone knows the only reason he keeps his place is because he is Johnson enough.

Basso is obviously going to leave the club because he's lost his place to another ex Yeovil player who is onl picked bacause he's an ex Yeovil player and gary johnson's godson.

Williams is another ex Yeovil player and Gary Johnson's milkmans, sisters, next door neigbours godson, so is related to Gary, so nepotism is at work here too, Also, we signed him as a sick note player, not as midfield cover, but to cover the gap on the treatment table now that brooker has regained fitness. But already we can see the poor judgement in buyinhg him, as he has already recovered sufficient that he is able to start in league games. This is not what we expected when we bought him so more poor judhement by GJ,

Sproule has got great pace but nothing else, and this must be because he's Irish and everyone knows that Gj doesn't know how to handle Irish players.

The clubs medical team needs a shake up because we've had an epidemic of fractured cheek bones in recent months ( 2 in the last 3 competitive games is of epidemic proportions in my opinion) this is of concern and I wonder whether the hygene in the medical centre is what it should be, as everyone knows that a major cause of cheekbone fractures is MRSA, which in turn is caused by poor hygene.

Maynard is going to struggle here because we just don't play the right type of football to suite him and to get a striker who can fit in with outr style of play Johnson would have had to pay at least £5m. We need the midfield and wide players to ensure that the ball is played across the 6 yard area and ideally dead weight, so that the ball stops dead on the goalline for him to tap in - that is Maynard's strength, so we should be playing to it.

We are missing Marvin Elliott, but someone needs to carry out a home visit because it's just not on having a player absent because his Mum keeps giving him a note to say that he has to be excused games because she doesn't want him to catch a veruka in the showers.

I know these views might be contentious, but I can back this up with hard facts.

I don't know if you all realise, but we have been sucked in to the relegation zone, as we are only 4 points above the 3 bottom teams . As aresult, , so Saturday's game is a real 6 pointer with another relagtion threatened team, as coventry are hovering just 6 points above relegation. What is more, our lack of a decent goalscorer is again evident as we have scored the same number of goals as 2 of the bottom 3 teams. This is absolute proof that we have failed to build on last seasons success. To be in this position is just negligent management of the highest order, and the conclusive evidence I have laid out shows that we have gone from a play off team to a relegation fight and proves that Gary Johnson and Steve Lansdowne should immediately fall on their swords.

It is obvious that they haven't got a clue as to how to run a sucessful Championship club. However, the good news is that short list of potential replacements should be easy to draw up from the highly qualified candidates who post regularly on here!

[Guest shaun1105]

For anyone that stood in the pouring rain at Blackpool, lee johnson was are best player he may not be the best tackler but, pretty much every attack that started on us through the middle lee johnson was there every time to cut the ball out and break up play. If I'm honest johnson looks a different player this season as he knows he got to fill nick carles boots, i can also assure you he will play a man of the match performance at coventry on saturday and we as fans that go to coventry got to make sure we notice the great things he does rather than the bad and you will be surprised. !!

[rockin-robin]

Too late.

The last week has seen an interesting mix of posts and quite a few posters are having a dig at fellow fans who are critical of the way things are going. It is important to look at facts when attempting to criticise, so at the risk of apearing stupid, here's my attempt.

Our squad is not good enough to get promotion as we we need more cover up front, in midfield and in defence - in fact everywhere.

Lee Johnson is not good enough, fast enough, big enough and australian enough as it is common knowledge that we should not have sold Nick Carle ( who was Australian enough). Lee J should be dropped but everyone knows the only reason he keeps his place is because he is Johnson enough.

Basso is obviously going to leave the club because he's lost his place to another ex Yeovil player who is onl picked bacause he's an ex Yeovil player and gary johnson's godson.

Williams is another ex Yeovil player and Gary Johnson's milkmans, sisters, next door neigbours godson, so is related to Gary, so nepotism is at work here too, Also, we signed him as a sick note player, not as midfield cover, but to cover the gap on the treatment table now that brooker has regained fitness. But already we can see the poor judgement in buyinhg him, as he has already recovered sufficient that he is able to start in league games. This is not what we expected when we bought him so more poor judhement by GJ,

Sproule has got great pace but nothing else, and this must be because he's Irish and everyone knows that Gj doesn't know how to handle Irish players.

The clubs medical team needs a shake up because we've had an epidemic of fractured cheek bones in recent months ( 2 in the last 3 competitive games is of epidemic proportions in my opinion) this is of concern and I wonder whether the hygene in the medical centre is what it should be, as everyone knows that a major cause of cheekbone fractures is MRSA, which in turn is caused by poor hygene.

Maynard is going to struggle here because we just don't play the right type of football to suite him and to get a striker who can fit in with outr style of play Johnson would have had to pay at least £5m. We need the midfield and wide players to ensure that the ball is played across the 6 yard area and ideally dead weight, so that the ball stops dead on the goalline for him to tap in - that is Maynard's strength, so we should be playing to it.

We are missing Marvin Elliott, but someone needs to carry out a home visit because it's just not on having a player absent because his Mum keeps giving him a note to say that he has to be excused games because she doesn't want him to catch a veruka in the showers.

I know these views might be contentious, but I can back this up with hard facts.

I don't know if you all realise, but we have been sucked in to the relegation zone, as we are only 4 points above the 3 bottom teams . As aresult, , so Saturday's game is a real 6 pointer with another relagtion threatened team, as coventry are hovering just 6 points above relegation. What is more, our lack of a decent goalscorer is again evident as we have scored the same number of goals as 2 of the bottom 3 teams. This is absolute proof that we have failed to build on last seasons success. To be in this position is just negligent management of the highest order, and the conclusive evidence I have laid out shows that we have gone from a play off team to a relegation fight and proves that Gary Johnson and Steve Lansdowne should immediately fall on their swords.

It is obvious that they haven't got a clue as to how to run a sucessful Championship club. However, the good news is that short list of potential replacements should be easy to draw up from the highly qualified candidates who post regularly on here!

Whats your point? If it wasn't for LJ we'd be top now!

[Seend Red]

i can also assure you he will play a man of the match performance at coventry on saturday

I don't suppose you could tell me the score as well could you? Then I can pop down the bookies and win some money

we as fans that go to coventry got to make sure we notice the great things he does rather than the bad and you will be surprised. !!

So basically ignore all the **** ups and just concentrate on all the 5/10 yards passes backwards and sidewards, gawd- I'm getting sleepy just thinking about it

[Guest shaun1105]

ok so obviously he makes a blunder but if you watch the game properly he always makes up for it by like i said intersepting a through ball or something. so I'm not saying ignore the ***** ups I'm just saying when you watch the game aknowledge the good things he does.

[cinker]

ok so obviously he makes a blunder but if you watch the game properly he always makes up for it by like i said intersepting a through ball or something. so I'm not saying ignore the ***** ups I'm just saying when you watch the game aknowledge the good things he does.

This topic and posts are damaging the club and player. Give it a rest. Mods pull the topic please. Enough is enough.

[downendcity]

Whats your point? If it wasn't for LJ we'd be top now!

I was being ironic and everything was meant to be tongue in cheek.

We are just 2 games into a new season, but reading this and other threads, you'd think we are propping up the rest of the table, didn't have as decent player in the squad and had a manager who didn't know his ar5e frm his elbow.

As for Lee Johnson, I have to say am still not completely convinced about Lee being first choice in midfield, and for what it's worth thought that Nick Carle would have given us a stronger midfield alongside Elliott. However, Gary Johnson is the manager and his job depends on his decisions. He knows the extra pressure there is on him and Lee by picking his son, but with so much at stake I doubt that nepotism would be the reason for his selection.

Lee Johnson is a capable championship midfielder, but without Elliott alongside him to do the hard work, he is found wanting a little. If we are building for promotion, then I would doubt that Lee would cope with Premier League football, especially from a physical point of view. In view of this, Ben Watson would seem the ideal player and he is available both for this season and if we make the step up with promotion. Whether we have that sort of money available after buying Maynard I don't know, but it would strengthen our midfield considerably.

[rockin-robin]

I was being ironic and everything was meant to be tongue in cheek.

We are just 2 games into a new season, but reading this and other threads, you'd think we are propping up the rest of the table, didn't have as decent player in the squad and had a manager who didn't know his ar5e frm his elbow.

As for Lee Johnson, I have to say am still not completely convinced about Lee being first choice in midfield, and for what it's worth thought that Nick Carle would have given us a stronger midfield alongside Elliott. However, Gary Johnson is the manager and his job depends on his decisions. He knows the extra pressure there is on him and Lee by picking his son, but with so much at stake I doubt that nepotism would be the reason for his selection.

Lee Johnson is a capable championship midfielder, but without Elliott alongside him to do the hard work, he is found wanting a little. If we are building for promotion, then I would doubt that Lee would cope with Premier League football, especially from a physical point of view. In view of this, Ben Watson would seem the ideal player and he is available both for this season and if we make the step up with promotion. Whether we have that sort of money available after buying Maynard I don't know, but it would strengthen our midfield considerably.

I know it was meant to be tongue and cheek and I agree with your anology that this forum has gone a bit doolally after just 2 games. I just express it in my weird little way, because after all, it is only a fans forum.

Anyway, I have to say i agree totally with you about Ben Watson and if I was GJ or SL I would be busting a gut to sign him up. He is the perfect replacement for Carle - who I also think could have been a crucial part of our midfield this season. It would significantly add to the strength of the squad and the spine of the team.

[Chappers]

Bit late, but LJ has occasional brilliant games, and occasional rubbish ones, but overall I don't have a problem with him in terms of ability. Not impressed with him in the 2 home games and can't comment on Blackpool. Playing for a Club managed by your father is never a great idea, especially in the higher divisions, and will always lead to nepotism charges. The only time that I have ever suspected any favouritism was at Wembley, but as option B was Vasko, there were arguments in favour of bringing LJ on. BTW, I am not opening a debate about that decision (I hope), it is just a perfect example of the difficulties faced - Had Vasko come on and had a stinker, there could have been arguments about making a wrong decision to avoid accusation of nepotism.

[Red Zeppelin]

Lee Johnson has said himself, 'the best thing for me and my football would be my dad to leave the club.' He really doesn't like the burden of being the manager's son.

[kingswood red]

Yes he does have the occasional bad game and yes he has given the ball away a few times, but I really do think that he is the player in our team who makes us tick. Keogh leaving reminded me to look on You tube to watch his goal against Middlesborough in the 4th round of the FA Cup, if you type in 'bristol city middlesborough part 2' the second half will come up. In that 2nd half Lee Johnson was 100% on top of his game and I think it should be a reminder to the doubters what a quality player he is. His dead ball delivery is excellent and he either starts or is involved in the majority of the attacks in the 2nd half and looks quality, even though Lee Dixon has to pick Noble and bum him instead on the analysis.

The Coventry game is a good time for Lee to prove his doubters wrong. Get stuck in, win a few headers, look as though he isn't afraid of getting hurt. Then perhaps people will get off his back. If not this thread will grow and grow.

[Seend Red]

The Coventry game is a good time for Lee to prove his doubters wrong. Get stuck in, win a few headers

Good stuff.

But let's be realistic, I'd just settle for some decent passing and assists and good ball retention.

[bucksred]

I don't think it's a case of being a 'hater or a 'lover' as you put it, surely people are entitled to have an opinion without being labelled as such.

'Big girls blouses' nice touch. And in my opinion comparing it as having less sense than a military bloodbath is pathetic.

Change ends.

Extremely valid point. the Brits spent almost three years trying to take it, without any orgininality.. same tactics, same stupidity. Valid point indeed. as either side comes out with precisely the same arguements every fkn time. can even guess the protagonists either time. very like Vimy ridge, and about as much sense n all. 30 all, your service.