Admin Maesknoll Red Posted December 5, 2012 Admin Share Posted December 5, 2012 Blimey, who next? I enjoy his lyrical reviews of games, wonder if we'll hear him on R5 live again? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20605267 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Red Hat Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I wonder what his statement will read like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Will his famous laugh go down well with CID, I wonder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Blame it on the Belgiums.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol Rob Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 If rohypnol was involved, do you think he'd have exclaimed 'It's a knockout!'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Charged now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol Rob Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Charged now If found guilty, I hope he doesn't decide to play his Joker during sentencing. He'll have his stretch doubled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mendip City Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Charged now If guilty he deserves all he gets but I just wonder how on earth something like this can ever be proven 30-40 years down the line. Anyone know or is this likely to be massive waste of police/court time and money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 If guilty he deserves all he gets but I just wonder how on earth something like this can ever be proven 30-40 years down the line. Anyone know or is this likely to be massive waste of police/court time and money? For the CPS to say charge him on same day as arrested I'd imagine they have what they think is pretty solid evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol Rob Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 If guilty he deserves all he gets but I just wonder how on earth something like this can ever be proven 30-40 years down the line. Anyone know or is this likely to be massive waste of police/court time and money? It's a good point, but I'd imagine the Police have - what they consider to be sufficient evidence - and it'll be up to the CPS to make that call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Maesknoll Red Posted December 5, 2012 Author Admin Share Posted December 5, 2012 For the CPS to say charge him on same day as arrested I'd imagine they have what they think is pretty solid evidence Or he held his hands up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambridge Batch Red Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Sad to hear this. Saville was a Yorkshire weirdo who looked like a paedo but Stuart Hall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenn Loyal Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 What a Knock out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest poland_red Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 As someone else says, Saville was suspect from the off. But Stuart Hall, I'm a bit put out - thought his commentary was magnificent. Gutted. If found guilty though, feed him to the crows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazred Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Very surprised by this one. What a great word smith he is, some of his commentaries and match reports are fantastic and unique. Still, all that falls to the wayside once stuff like this comes out. Shocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretSam Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 As someone else says, Saville was suspect from the off. But Stuart Hall, I'm a bit put out - thought his commentary was magnificent. Gutted. If found guilty though, feed him to the crows. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin phantom Posted December 6, 2012 Admin Share Posted December 6, 2012 Another 60 year old has been arrested this morning in relation to these enquiries - surely not another well known celeb from the 70's / 80's ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southport Red Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Very surprised by this one. What a great word smith he is, some of his commentaries and match reports are fantastic and unique. Still, all that falls to the wayside once stuff like this comes out. Shocked. I remember hearing him give a half time match report on an Everton game once. His prose was so colourful, you cold not tell if there was any score or who was winning. Flowery yes but irritated the Dickens out of yours truly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slartibartfast Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Allways thought he was a dick. This is just like the French Revolutions "Reign of Terror" Bring out the tumbrils ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Another 60 year old has been arrested this morning in relation to these enquiries - surely not another well known celeb from the 70's / 80's ? Not exactly. Watch the news and very shortly you shall find out who it is..... I'm staying schtum until it is official. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazred Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Looks like its Max Clifford.......who does he call to get him out of the shit then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havanatopia Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Another 60 year old has been arrested this morning in relation to these enquiries - surely not another well known celeb from the 70's / 80's ? Hall was 80+ . The mind boggles really that none of this came out before, and i emphasise the word none. Now it is like a torrent of people coming forward. Almost like the entire horrible affair was some form of eyes wide shut affair. I think this is going to run for several months and there will be a clamour, come the end, for our privacy laws to be overhauled at the end of it... some, as we know who are not guilty, have already had their reputations destroyed by this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myol'man Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Max Clifford! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazred Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 I remember hearing him give a half time match report on an Everton game once. His prose was so colourful, you cold not tell if there was any score or who was winning. Flowery yes but irritated the Dickens out of yours truly. Yeh he did have the tendancy to go a bit whimsical but that was the appeal to me, totally understand someone thinking the opposite, like you say, he did tend to spare the facts for concentrating on the detail. Remember him taking about 2 mins just to describe what Davide Ginola (i think it was him) looked like as he flew down the wing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Hall was 80+ . The mind boggles really that none of this came out before, and i emphasise the word none. Now it is like a torrent of people coming forward. Almost like the entire horrible affair was some form of eyes wide shut affair. I think this is going to run for several months and there will be a clamour, come the end, for our privacy laws to be overhauled at the end of it... some, as we know who are not guilty, have already had their reputations destroyed by this. Phantom was referring to the arrest Gazred referred to and there was also the questioning under caution a fortnight ago of an ageing 'national treasure' whose name is not being released, but is known to the media. As I've said elsewhere, the apparent scattergun approach to hauling in celebrities over accusations of fairly minor* offences committed 40 years' ago is likely to rebound most brutally on the Met eventually. * In Hall's case the charges are serious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizoon Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 As someone else says, Saville was suspect from the off. But Stuart Hall, I'm a bit put out - thought his commentary was magnificent. Gutted. If found guilty though, feed him to the crows. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Hitler Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 6 December 2012 Last updated at 13:26 Max Clifford arrested in sex offences investigation Max Clifford is one of the most influential figures in British media Max Clifford, one of the UK's leading public relations experts, has been arrested by detectives investigating historic sex offences. The BBC understands that Mr Clifford was arrested by Metropolitan Police officers working on Operation Yewtree. Scotland Yard said officers had arrested a man in his 60s "on suspicion of sexual offences" and had taken him to central London police station. Max Clifford is one of the most influential figures in British media. He is the the sixth person to be questioned as part of the operation. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20627765 Great news, can't stand the man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havanatopia Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Phantom was referring to the arrest Gazred referred to and there was also the questioning under caution a fortnight ago of an ageing 'national treasure' whose name is not being released, but is known to the media. As I've said elsewhere, the apparent scattergun approach to hauling in celebrities over accusations of fairly minor* offences committed 40 years' ago is likely to rebound most brutally on the Met eventually. * In Hall's case the charges are serious OK noted on point of age. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex#40 Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Agreed. Little weasel will have to represent himself I guess?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Hate the bloke even more now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS3_RED Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Ummmm Innocent until proven guilty I believe is the term. **** having you three sat on a jury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC RISK77 Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 anybody who represented that skank Kerry Katona for so long must have problems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Hitler Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Ummmm Innocent until proven guilty I believe is the term. **** having you three sat on a jury. Imagine the scenario, Piers Morgan is in the dock (doesn't matter what for), you are on the jury. Now is he guilty or not? There's an interesting story about Max as well that he hasn't publicised much: How else to explain the 'sex parties'? He held them throughout the Sixties, the Seventies and right the way into the Eighties, always in the distinctly unglamorous locale of the outer London suburbs. 'It was absolutely ridiculous. I'll give an example. A mate of mine had a little flat in Colliers Wood. He was a printer and on a Friday evening, I used to use the flat. Mac would come back from the late shift at three or four in the morning, and there would be this one at it in that bedroom, and this one there, and that one there, and these ones standing in the corridor... he'd say, Max, I'm ever so tired, do you think you could ask such-and-such to leave, because I'm knackered. And these people, they would be household names.' It sounds not so much like an anecdote as an account of a scene from a Sixties British sex comedy. Which isn't such a bad comparison actually, since Diana Dors was a 'friend' of Max's and in the book he drops fairly heavy hints about an affair. 'So what? People would be slipping away during the party?' I ask him. 'Or it would be happening in front of you?' 'It wasn't you do her, and you do him... it was natural combustion. Like-minded people. Coming together. And I was the ringmaster.' 'So, you were a participator? Or just the organiser?' 'Well, I would say it, but I was extremely selective. With me it was quality rather than quantity, which was why I was probably extremely lucky in terms of sexual diseases. Of course we'd never heard of Aids and things like that, I mean Jesus Christ! When I think back... so it was natural spontaneity. But, hmm, there was an awful lot of it.' http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2006/jul/23/pressandpublishing.observermagazine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksy Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Well i never ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calculus Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 anybody who represented that skank Kerry Katona for so long must have problems This is an appalling libel. Even if the entire skank community decide to sue you'll have no sympathy from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slartibartfast Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 If this goes on there will soon be a large vacancy for "National Treasures"! Let's see, I'm 60, no discearnable talent, yay, I'm a shoe-in ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Maesknoll Red Posted December 6, 2012 Author Admin Share Posted December 6, 2012 Obviously if the offences involve kids its abhorrent , but should everyone who has lived a hedonistic lifestyle be looking over their shoulder - or only if they are famous and maybe liable to pay some compensation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazred Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 If this goes on there will soon be a large vacancy for "National Treasures"! Let's see, I'm 60, no discearnable talent, yay, I'm a shoe-in ! A British Institution at the very least sir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Imagine the scenario, Piers Morgan is in the dock Don't make me get all excited. One day.. one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambridge Batch Red Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Rupert Murdoch next, please... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dolman Pragmatist Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 So are they going to arrest the remaining members of Led Zeppelin, whose exploits with 14/15 year old groupies in the USA in the 1970s have been well-documented (not least by themselves)? Blimey, when I was 16 my girlfriend was not quite 15 . Perhaps they'll come for me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin101 Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 So are they going to arrest the remaining members of Led Zeppelin, whose exploits with 14/15 year old groupies in the USA in the 1970s have been well-documented (not least by themselves)? Blimey, when I was 16 my girlfriend was not quite 15 . Perhaps they'll come for me too. Are you defending paedophillia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedZepperin Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 So are they going to arrest the remaining members of Led Zeppelin, whose exploits with 14/15 year old groupies in the USA in the 1970s have been well-documented (not least by themselves)? Because of the statute of limitations over there, I believe that this sort of offence would not go to court as it happened so long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dolman Pragmatist Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Are you defending paedophillia? What do you think? No, I'm asking the question as to whether the police are going to pursue all the alleged cases of people having sexual contact with under-16-year-olds. The knowledge of the behaviour of, for instance, certain notable rock bands, has been out there for many years, but I don't recall any arrests being made. It strikes me that they're picking off easy targets at the moment, particularly people who are dead. I just wonder if they'd have the guts to address one or two cases that might be a little more challenging... Call me a pervert, but actually yes I do see a difference between, for instance, an 18-year-old having a relationship with a 15-year-old, and a dirty old man assaulting a child, although I don't think the law makes much distinction... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eco Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Wonder if Bill Wyman is getting worried ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Foiled again! Another misleading post. I got my hopes up thinking we had just signed two new centre backs. Actually, Hall and Clifford would be better than what we've got at the moment. But it looks like they may unavailable for a while! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 It's a funny ol'world. How many countries around the world have marriages and legal relationships below 16? I bet there are more population in the world that do than don't. Not that i agree with it... however... How many times have you been in a club and a bird comes up to you and you pull and she say's she's 19 only to find out later that she's a lot younger? It's happened to many. I reckon a lot of people are going to come forward now, even though they were consenting and misleading back then. Bet it goes on everyday with Pop and Rock bands still now and anyone with fame and money. You gotta feel sorry for some... but not others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderHider Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Max Clifford could tell a few stories.., I wonder how many people he has represented are 5hitting themselves at the possibility he gonna squeal like a pig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i hate you butler Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 when I was a kid,if I had a sore throat I was given a Halls soother to suck on. my uncle stuart kept them in his trousers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest poland_red Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 ok, so while my heart sank with the news of Hall, this Clifford chap is a slippery worm. whether guilty or innocent, looks like he's finally going to get a taste of his own medicine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sglosbcfc Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Dear Mr Edmonds, Leave £10,000 in a bin near the White Hart in Bitton or I'll tell the police you tossed me off on Swap Shop in the seventies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screech Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Dear Mr Edmonds, Leave £10,000 in a bin near the White Hart in Bitton or I'll tell the police you tossed me off on Swap Shop in the seventies. Erm. Too much information before bed time for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i hate you butler Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Dear Mr Edmonds, Leave £10,000 in a bin near the White Hart in Bitton or I'll tell the police you tossed me off on Swap Shop in the seventies. supposed to end with "DEAL OR NO DEAL" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsquirrel Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 forgive me for not grasping this but i dont understand how all these under 16s got in contact with them anyway? was it friends of family and such saying things like 'pop round and see uncle stewy if you like later??' were these youngsters parents aware of where they were going? if so,they are as much to blame for letting them go in the first place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Red Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Does it make me a bad person if I find this news about Max Clifford to be pleasing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambridge Batch Red Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Dear Mr Edmonds, Leave £10,000 in a bin near the White Hart in Bitton or I'll tell the police you tossed me off on Swap Shop in the seventies. That's nothing I got my backdoor kicked in by Mr Blobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sglosbcfc Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 supposed to end with "DEAL OR NO DEAL" That is the end of my stand up career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sglosbcfc Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 I'll try one more.... Tony Blackburn turned up at a pool party with Jimmy Savile and Gary Glitter, the host shouted "tony you deaf bast... I told you to bring a pair of speedos" I'm here all week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorset_Cider Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Hall was 80+ . The mind boggles really that none of this came out before, and i emphasise the word none. Now it is like a torrent of people coming forward. Almost like the entire horrible affair was some form of eyes wide shut affair. I think this is going to run for several months and there will be a clamour, come the end, for our privacy laws to be overhauled at the end of it... some, as we know who are not guilty, have already had their reputations destroyed by this. We all know what is wrong...... but everyone is guilty as soon as, as far as the public is concerned..... fan the flames and nobody stands a fair chance? I'd expect there are a fair few on here that might question their own actions over the years? And I mean that either way............ something else....... all of this ain't going to make it all go away or make it right until the human race ends. Thing is the grey areas if there is such a thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest poland_red Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Does it make me a bad person if I find this news about Max Clifford to be pleasing? whatever you're having brother red Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GlennHumphrys1 Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Oh bless you sir. The last of the innocents. They were there because thay wanted to be. Just like Beiber could snap his fingers and have 100 13-20 yr olds at a party in minutes. Only 100? You can probably add a few noughts to that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sglosbcfc Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 We all know what is wrong...... but everyone is guilty as soon as, as far as the public is concerned..... fan the flames and nobody stands a fair chance? I'd expect there are a fair few on here that might question their own actions over the years? And I mean that either way............ something else....... all of this ain't going to make it all go away or make it right until the human race ends. Thing is the grey areas if there is such a thing? Older guys who know exactly what they are doing and then taking advantage of young, impressionable often vulnerable girls is very wrong in my book. It is not the same as an 18 year old going out with a 15 year old. These guys are alleged to have used their power, wealth and fame to take advantage of underage girls end of. They had their fun now they must face the consequences - if of course they are found guilty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 These names are not being pulled out of a hat, some will be supported allegations i.e. at least 2 unconnected people making similar claims, but I also suspect that perhaps the old bill may have given somebody immunity from further prosecution for information, possibly somebody who has already done a stretch and dosen't want to do another, just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 I'm not sure the allegations against M Clifford involve children. The ones against DLT don't. These are women in their 50s who, after the Savile publicity, decided to contact the police and say "so-and-so groped me in 1977 and I've left it 35 years to complain" - and the probably "please give me the name of a solicitor who specialises in compensation claims". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 I'm not sure the allegations against M Clifford involve children. The ones against DLT don't. These are women in their 50s who, after the Savile publicity, decided to contact the police and say "so-and-so groped me in 1977 and I've left it 35 years to complain" - and the probably "please give me the name of a solicitor who specialises in compensation claims". i'm sure you may well be correct in all you say, but the counter argument might well be what chance would one person have stood when the offence took place, but times have changed and I cannot believe that police or CPS would ever charge on the evidence of just one claimant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Not just any Treasure, eh Robbo - but one especially connected to where I am at the moment - Australia. Confirmed Sir? You may be on the right track there..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 i'm sure you may well be correct in all you say, but the counter argument might well be what chance would one person have stood when the offence took place, but times have changed and I cannot believe that police or CPS would ever charge on the evidence of just one claimant. Well, Stuart Hall is the only person charged so far over what is what is likely to have been corroborated evidence. We'll wait and see whether the evidence against any other celebs is even considered good enough to submit a file to the CPS. If it isn't, watch out the Met Police commander leading the criminal investigation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fodbarmyarmy Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 These names are not being pulled out of a hat, some will be supported allegations i.e. at least 2 unconnected people making similar claims, but I also suspect that perhaps the old bill may have given somebody immunity from further prosecution for information, possibly somebody who has already done a stretch and dosen't want to do another, just a thought. IMO.....this is all to do with certain newspaper tycoon who was made to look a clown in front of everyone by our goverment Now flexing his muscles in - Start with a dead celeb and let those in real power see what real damage I can do if they dont back off I love conspiracy theories me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Hitler Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 IMO.....this is all to do with certain newspaper tycoon who was made to look a clown in front of everyone by our goverment Now flexing his muscles in - Start with a dead celeb and let those in real power see what real damage I can do if they dont back off I love conspiracy theories me.... Well that's what happened with the MP expense scandal that saw several MPs jailed. The Barclay brothers own the Telegraph and also control the small channel island of Sark. Despite the brothers' strenuous objection the government pushed through laws that significantly reduced their control over Sark. Result was that the Telegraph started publishing all of the dirt on the MPs. I expect that the press are significantly motivated on this one as they can show how effective a free press can be despite Leveson's attempt to shackle it. And I bet they would love to nail a live senior politician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizoon Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 I'm not sure the allegations against M Clifford involve children. The ones against DLT don't. These are women in their 50s who, after the Savile publicity, decided to contact the police and say "so-and-so groped me in 1977 and I've left it 35 years to complain" - and the probably "please give me the name of a solicitor who specialises in compensation claims". I don't think it's quite that cynical. I would suggest that it's women in their 50s who are dissatisfied with their lives and want someone to blame. Whether they genuinely believe that their lives were wrecked by being groped 35 years ago by a celebrity is a matter on which one can only speculate. Just as racists blame blacks for all their misfortunes, feminists blame men - or am I being cynical now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.