The dastardly red Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 10 hours ago, Harry said: Don't know about the players, but I know a fair few club employees who are overjoyed. No you don't, yet more hot air and bluster pours from between your chops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Club and Country Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 Believe there is a interview out today where wilbreham describes cotts as the best manager he's ever played for awkward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 7 hours ago, NickJ said: Have to say mate very disappointing to see such an unnecessary character assassination. Number of points. 1. If SL found him difficult to work with whose fault is that, the manager with this clubs best ever win ratio, or the owner who has continued the cycle of mediocrity with the occasional successful blip. 2. If people in high positions were scared of him, ******* good, they are responsible for the mess this club constantly finds itself in. 3. His condition of coming here was total control, this was accepted, so if he refused to play players brought in over his head that is the fault of the people that did this not his - they brought in mediocrity not Messi for Christ sake. 4. Refused to fill the bench a few times - really mate, which games? 5. As for Mr Burns Snr - guess what, when I played, if the manager left me out I thought the manager was a *****. 6. As for arrogant, rude, stubborn and a control freak - attributes of quite a few decent managers I would say. Finally Harry, you don't know Cotterill, you are just repeating (we have to take your word for that) what others have told you. Nobody is liked by everybody. Personally I don't make judgments about a mans character unless I have met him. I think you will find that culpability for this dogs dinner of a club, and our current league position, does not lie at Cotterill's door. Still, no doubt our beloved leaders will find us a "nice" manager to lead us to relegation instead of a nasty one, I'm sure that will make us all feel better. Hi Nick. Havent got much time as about to start work, but wanted to quickly say re your opening remarks. Yes, this is a sad character assassination to put in writing, but as I said, I've never said this publically whilst he was in charge as I felt that was wrong and unfair. Wasn't gonna go into detail on here either, but some were asking for it, now they don't like what they read, claiming it's all untrue. 'Fraid to say, it's all true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 16 minutes ago, Numero Uno said: Should parents of contracted players be coming on here spouting their opinions? Not sure they should tbh. The club will know full well who they are and what they are saying, trust me on that, and you do wonder whether a parent is benefitting his boys career by doing that? Dreadful post IMO How rude - completely disagree with you First of all whether he comes on here is djb's right and choice DJB certainly doesn't 'spout' any opinions Always thought how sensible his posts are and how sensible he is to stay away from certain subjects and threads when he must be bursting to comment or put fact to fiction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin1988 Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 29 minutes ago, Harry said: 'Fraid to say, it's all true. It's not. There's a ton of excuses in your initial post. Not that you're not passing on what people have said, just that they're talking out their arses and I could (but won't) hazard a guess at who you've been speaking to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cider red Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 2 minutes ago, Harry said: Hi Nick. Havent got much time as about to start work, but wanted to quickly say re your opening remarks. Yes, this is a sad character assassination to put in writing, but as I said, I've never said this publically whilst he was in charge as I felt that was wrong and unfair. Wasn't gonna go into detail on here either, but some were asking for it, now they don't like what they read, claiming it's all untrue. 'Fraid to say, it's all true. I heard similar over the summer, apparently his relationship with SL became poor over this period. At that point things should have been sorted or he should have gone Imo. I'd imagine that has a lot to do with our awful transfer dealings this season. Typical city to have such a poor season after setting up to do well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 5 minutes ago, Harry said: 'Fraid to say, it's all true. Doesn't mean all unjustifiable though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The dastardly red Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 3 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said: Dreadful post IMO How rude - completely disagree with you First of all whether he comes on here is djb's right and choice DJB certainly doesn't 'spout' any opinions Always thought how sensible his posts are and how sensible he is to stay away from certain subjects and threads when he must be bursting to comment or put fact to fiction Who is djb? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myol'man Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 10 hours ago, Harry said: Sorry. Can't say any more as its their jobs, not fair to reveal names. But I know 6 persons employed by the club in some capacity and I know their opinions. It's only the players/coaches and manager who really count. All the rest are just pen pushers/bib carriers/suits and coat fillers and can be replaced easily. Sad day for the club when last seasons hero can be dis'd so soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 8 minutes ago, The dastardly red said: Who is djb? Decent polite poster who appears to understand his football Also,related to one of our players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Exile Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 Fascinating thread. And the more fascinating for reading what both Nick J and Harry have to say. What emerges is a picture - however partial - of SC as a very committed and single minded individual…possibly not someone who doubts how right his approach is. We'd all recognise that in his public interviews. Probably not the easiest of people to manage…I've managed lots of people and many of the most talented and creative, who won us all the awards, were precisely that sort of character. You need them. What also emerges is a picture of a club led by people unable to harness what SC brought. Unable to manage him to deliver their "strategy" - whatever that might be. As a result we have too few players and this season has been a disaster. I'm with Nick in concluding that the fundamental problem lies at Board level. SC will manage other clubs very successfully and I wish him well. You'd need to know what you were taking on with him for things to end well. I'd have to conclude that, yet again, our Board has exposed its weakness…despite their protestations they have no clear and consistent strategy to deliver long term success. They're a group of yes men of limited experience dominated by SL's wealth, owing their positions to him for good or ill. Personally I've never thought that fit for purpose…events have proved time and again that, despite their best efforts, they are out of their depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djb6162 Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 55 minutes ago, 29AR said: I like your posts and would completely acknowledge that you are very reliably informed and take that as a given. I reluctantly say this as I don't want to seem I'm digging you out or questioning your credibility, because I'm not, but it's hard to take you totally impartially because even I would agree your lad was very poorly managed by him. The thing is as I said above I can quite understand why SC was taking the stance he was. It's a huge leap of faith for him to get promoted and then have faith in the younger prospects. I think in Wes' case he was wrong, but being sacked so soon after delivering great success shows just how fragile the job is. In that case him taking the board on and trying to press them into backing a man who had one perm signing post promotion I actually accept and to some extent commend. I can see why some think it wrong though. thanks for the comments above, can i clear up one thing the rather philosophical post i made above, contained no reference to Wes ? nor did it intend to !! so apologies if i mislead you. My rather biblical reference was a pointer towards people who support somebody whole heatedly and publicly, right up to the moment they are no longer important or indeed no longer a threat or they feel threatened themselves. we should not be surprised now that people are telling what they know and we should not pillar them for it its a debating forum does that make more sense.? i hope so Nothing to do with players or indeed Wes As others have said, on that matter i have to continually bite my tongue for obvious and sensible reason. my thoughts on SC will remain with me and with Wes as far as this forum is concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cider red Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 3 minutes ago, djb6162 said: thanks for the comments above, can i clear up one thing the rather philosophical post i made above, contained no reference to Wes ? nor did it intend to !! so apologies if i mislead you. My rather biblical reference was a pointer towards people who support somebody whole heatedly and publicly, right up to the moment they are no longer important or indeed no longer a threat or they feel threatened themselves. we should not be surprised now that people are telling what they know and we should not pillar them for it its a debating forum does that make more sense.? i hope so Nothing to do with players or indeed Wes As others have said, on that matter i have to continually bite my tongue for obvious and sensible reason. my thoughts on SC will remain with me and with Wes as far as this forum is concerned. Makes total sense and credit to you. Hopefully Wes will get a fair crack now, he showed against Albion what a menace he can be. I'd like to see a 4 3 3 with kodjia agard and Wes Saturday. At least there's a slim chance of that happening sometime this season now!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashton_fan Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 28 minutes ago, Harry said: Hi Nick. Havent got much time as about to start work, but wanted to quickly say re your opening remarks. Yes, this is a sad character assassination to put in writing, but as I said, I've never said this publically whilst he was in charge as I felt that was wrong and unfair. Wasn't gonna go into detail on here either, but some were asking for it, now they don't like what they read, claiming it's all untrue. 'Fraid to say, it's all true. There aren't many 'nice guy' successful managers (Eddie Howe being an exception). It's the same in business, if you've worked with people who are driven and successful they're not always your favourite person because they can seem arrogant and uncaring. However being a football manager you have to make sure everyone's doing their jobs properly or you'll probably lose yours. All I can say to those staff who are glad to see the back of him, careful what you wish for ... Nigel Pearson could be with you soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 6 minutes ago, djb6162 said: thanks for the comments above, can i clear up one thing the rather philosophical post i made above, contained no reference to Wes ? nor did it intend to !! so apologies if i mislead you. My rather biblical reference was a pointer towards people who support somebody whole heatedly and publicly, right up to the moment they are no longer important or indeed no longer a threat or they feel threatened themselves. we should not be surprised now that people are telling what they know and we should not pillar them for it its a debating forum does that make more sense.? i hope so Nothing to do with players or indeed Wes As others have said, on that matter i have to continually bite my tongue for obvious and sensible reason. my thoughts on SC will remain with me and with Wes as far as this forum is concerned. Quite right and I take absolutely no inference other than I presume (very possibly wrongly!!) conversations over dinner etc may not have been complimentary at what even I would perceive as poor management of one individual. Yours and Tetburys are the 'opinions' I pay most heed to, and acknowledge you've absolutely held your tongue and not brought any question on yourself or on Wes and didn't mean to suggest otherwise. But seeing your explanation of the reference I see I had the wrong end of the stick anyway! If the change has brought one thing I'm hopeful it's that you may get to see your boy get a fantastic opportunity this summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myol'man Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 And remember Harry, no matter who the manager is you are never going to be a scout for Bristol City so just give up now. OK so you didn't like the manager because he laughed at your 'recommendations' , and you may have found a few on the inside who agreed with you , but no need to come on here and start a character assassination of one of the finest managers this club has ever had. Sid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchay Red Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 It is of course no surprise that his detractors are now coming out with their "inside information". However, even if true, the club should have been well aware of his behaviour traits when they appointed him. I suspect that a lot of the more recent demeanor is as result of him not getting the backing he wanted to add to squad and his subsequent frustration at not being able to improve results with the players he has. Those above him were more than happy to revel in last season's success. Football management is not a popularity contest. It's a strange world run by a lot of very strong characters who most of us would find difficult to deal with. I have not met SC but a friend has and said he was very pleasant and approachable. Many years ago another friend's son played under Holloway at Rovers. His take on Holloway's style was that he often " lost it" . Shouting and screaming at the players and behaving in a way which to an outsider would seem unacceptable. A lot of football managers, I suspect, within their club behave in a similar way. After all if you were managed that way as a player it is bound to lay the foundations. And one final thought, I don't imagine for one moment that all the players are obedient and timid shrinking violets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 32 minutes ago, Red Exile said: Fascinating thread. And the more fascinating for reading what both Nick J and Harry have to say. What emerges is a picture - however partial - of SC as a very committed and single minded individual…possibly not someone who doubts how right his approach is. We'd all recognise that in his public interviews. Probably not the easiest of people to manage…I've managed lots of people and many of the most talented and creative, who won us all the awards, were precisely that sort of character. You need them. What also emerges is a picture of a club led by people unable to harness what SC brought. Unable to manage him to deliver their "strategy" - whatever that might be. As a result we have too few players and this season has been a disaster. I'm with Nick in concluding that the fundamental problem lies at Board level. SC will manage other clubs very successfully and I wish him well. You'd need to know what you were taking on with him for things to end well. I'd have to conclude that, yet again, our Board has exposed its weakness…despite their protestations they have no clear and consistent strategy to deliver long term success. They're a group of yes men of limited experience dominated by SL's wealth, owing their positions to him for good or ill. Personally I've never thought that fit for purpose…events have proved time and again that, despite their best efforts, they are out of their depth. Spot on. If we do manage to persuade Nigel Pearson here then how do people think he'll behave? Like Mother Theresa? The board (all of them) are utter amateurs, with a terrible history of appointments and no coherent strategy at all. Look at their inability to even employ someone to write a press release. Still all jobs for incompetent, don't rock the boat, mates, eh? Perhaps we should appoint Tisdale, who currently manages a club in the bottom half of League Two but does seem awfully nice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol Rob Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 15 minutes ago, myol'man said: And remember Harry, no matter who the manager is you are never going to be a scout for Bristol City so just give up now. OK so you didn't like the manager because he laughed at your 'recommendations' , and you may have found a few on the inside who agreed with you , but no need to come on here and start a character assassination of one of the finest managers this club has ever had. Sid Aside from the fact Harry does scout for the club and has a good relationship with the decision makes he deals with of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin1988 Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 13 minutes ago, Frenchay Red said: It is of course no surprise that his detractors are now coming out with their "inside information". However, even if true, the club should have been well aware of his behaviour traits when they appointed him. I suspect that a lot of the more recent demeanor is as result of him not getting the backing he wanted to add to squad and his subsequent frustration at not being able to improve results with the players he has. Those above him were more than happy to revel in last season's success. What Harry says is true, is that there were people inside the business who didn't want to work with him. To relay their opinions as fact about him, and all the negative things they had to say, is not fair. The players backed him but internal politics speak louder. Is that the way to run a football club? He's been undermined by many quarters this season, by those speaking to Harry but more pressingly by the board. Had targets been moved on when they were brought to the board, we wouldn't be in this mess. Gayle and Gray were only two of them, and they weren't first on the list. Otherwise we wouldn't have been after them in late August. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RT's Vaseline Tub Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 11 hours ago, RedM said: I'm sorry I don't know how you can say that. There was a lot more not working than a missed penalty. The loss against Charlton was a nail in the coffin sure enough but don't place the blame at Marlon's feet. We drew but I must admit it felt like a loss as arguably they were the worst outfit I've ever seen at AG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Irish_Red Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 I have to say that everything Harry has said has been echoed by a well placed person I know at the club (I'm not going to reveal who they are as they told me certain things in confidence). I met them before Christmas and got the low down on some things going on at the club. Our former CEO's strategy for this season (remember he had experience of being a CEO at a top level club and should have known what was required for this season) has to be reviewed and analysed in light of our current situation and unfortunately SC had been hamstrung to a certain degree. The other character traits identified by Harry were echoed by this person too... Doesn't make them true but at least indicates a trend and perception. Some of these traits make for a top manager, until it starts to unravel. Contrast the Football Club to the Rugby team.... It's extremely well run, has a clear strategy and blends youth and experience (unlucky not to get promoted last year). Please note as someone mentioned elsewhere that SL appointed one of the most experienced and best coaches in the country, so the backing is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo88 Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 There is some debate as to whether Cotts autocratic style was good or bad. Some have compared this to working in a non-football environment, where control freaks have been successful. This may have been true where the control freak owns the business as he / she can hire and fire who he likes, but it doesn't fit with the modern view. The autocratic style of management often has a short term benefit, but usually fails longer term. Big businesses want leaders, not managers, an important difference. There are many leadership models but a very good one is John Adair's Action Centred Leadership. This states that, to be successful, a leader should devote time to the Task, the Team and the Individuals. If we measure Cotts against this, overall, he fails. The Task. The leader should define the task; make a plan; check performance against plan and adjust the plan as necessary. Cotts may have had a plan but he definitely didn't adjust it when it was obviously going pear shaped. So its a fail. The Team. The leader should build team spirit; encourage and motivate the team and resolve team conflicts. There seems to be a good team spirit within most of the team, though I'm not sure what the loan players and younger fringe players feel, so only partial success. The Individual. This is about developing each individual's talents. Valuing and recognising each individuals' abilities. For me, this is definitely a fail. I don't want to say any more, as I feel as though I might be consumed by a PowerPoint presentation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djb6162 Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 1 hour ago, Numero Uno said: Should parents of contracted players be coming on here spouting their opinions? Not sure they should tbh. The club will know full well who they are and what they are saying, trust me on that, and you do wonder whether a parent is benefitting his boys career by doing that? which opinion are you referring to exactly ? i made a comment, which i have explained above, that's quite different to giving an opinion and there is a difference. If that comment is enough to put the career of any player in doubt, then frankly, that player is with the wrong club anyway. hope they don't see it the way you do, but you may be right !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Orns Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 58 minutes ago, Red Exile said: Fascinating thread. And the more fascinating for reading what both Nick J and Harry have to say. What emerges is a picture - however partial - of SC as a very committed and single minded individual…possibly not someone who doubts how right his approach is. We'd all recognise that in his public interviews. Probably not the easiest of people to manage…I've managed lots of people and many of the most talented and creative, who won us all the awards, were precisely that sort of character. You need them. What also emerges is a picture of a club led by people unable to harness what SC brought. Unable to manage him to deliver their "strategy" - whatever that might be. As a result we have too few players and this season has been a disaster. I'm with Nick in concluding that the fundamental problem lies at Board level. SC will manage other clubs very successfully and I wish him well. You'd need to know what you were taking on with him for things to end well. I'd have to conclude that, yet again, our Board has exposed its weakness…despite their protestations they have no clear and consistent strategy to deliver long term success. They're a group of yes men of limited experience dominated by SL's wealth, owing their positions to him for good or ill. Personally I've never thought that fit for purpose…events have proved time and again that, despite their best efforts, they are out of their depth. This is so spot on I have to wonder if you work for the club! SC was always going to be marmite, we knew exactly what we were getting - and don't forget the board hand picked the man, no interview process whatsoever. Two years later they find out they can't work with the man, the man who gave us a much deserved, and long awaited trophy (of note), in the boardroom. The same board who have been 'surprised' at wages in the Championship, the league we were only out of for two years. The same board who had months of preparing for the inevitable promotion There is a book here for someone who wants to write it A dream of a season to an absolute cluster****, it really is the 'City way', isn't it? I wonder if the board are having a look hard look at themselves and wondering if maybe there are one or two people there who are hopelessly out of their depth and need replacing? I doubt it, you can sack the man you chose to take the stick, there's always someone else who would kill for the job You'd better get the next appointment right, we are at such a crucial point in our history. Shiny new stadiums are lovely, but lets be honest, it's what happens on the pitch on a Saturday / Tuesday that matters Yet again City you amaze me, but you've got me. I'm going nowhere, but my God you don't half piss me off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Exile Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 2 minutes ago, pongo88 said: There is some debate as to whether Cotts autocratic style was good or bad. Some have compared this to working in a non-football environment, where control freaks have been successful. This may have been true where the control freak owns the business as he / she can hire and fire who he likes, but it doesn't fit with the modern view. The autocratic style of management often has a short term benefit, but usually fails longer term. Big businesses want leaders, not managers, an important difference. There are many leadership models but a very good one is John Adair's Action Centred Leadership. This states that, to be successful, a leader should devote time to the Task, the Team and the Individuals. If we measure Cotts against this, overall, he fails. The Task. The leader should define the task; make a plan; check performance against plan and adjust the plan as necessary. Cotts may have had a plan but he definitely didn't adjust it when it was obviously going pear shaped. So its a fail. The Team. The leader should build team spirit; encourage and motivate the team and resolve team conflicts. There seems to be a good team spirit within most of the team, though I'm not sure what the loan players and younger fringe players feel, so only partial success. The Individual. This is about developing each individual's talents. Valuing and recognising each individuals' abilities. For me, this is definitely a fail. I don't want to say any more, as I feel as though I might be consumed by a PowerPoint presentation! Fair points Pongo - interesting (and depressing) to apply the same test to the real leader of the club - Steve Lansdown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Orns Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 5 minutes ago, Irish_Red said: Contrast the Football Club to the Rugby team.... It's extremely well run, has a clear strategy and blends youth and experience (unlucky not to get promoted last year). Please note as someone mentioned elsewhere that SL appointed one of the most experienced and best coaches in the country, so the backing is there. Bristol 'unlucky'? The amount of money thrown at that team, they should be top half of the Prem, easily As for the coaches, see above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Exile Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 4 minutes ago, Woodsy said: This is so spot on I have to wonder if you work for the club! For the avoidance of doubt…I don't! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin1988 Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 5 minutes ago, Woodsy said: This is so spot on I have to wonder if you work for the club! SC was always going to be marmite, we knew exactly what we were getting - and don't forget the board hand picked the man, no interview process whatsoever. Two years later they find out they can't work with the man, the man who gave us a much deserved, and long awaited trophy (of note), in the boardroom. The same board who have been 'surprised' at wages in the Championship, the league we were only out of for two years. The same board who had months of preparing for the inevitable promotion There is a book here for someone who wants to write it A dream of a season to an absolute cluster****, it really is the 'City way', isn't it? I wonder if the board are having a look hard look at themselves and wondering if maybe there are one or two people there who are hopelessly out of their depth and need replacing? I doubt it, you can sack the man you chose to take the stick, there's always someone else who would kill for the job You'd better get the next appointment right, we are at such a crucial point in our history. Shiny new stadiums are lovely, but lets be honest, it's what happens on the pitch on a Saturday / Tuesday that matters Yet again City you amaze me, but you've got me. I'm going nowhere, but my God you don't half piss me off Post of the year. And rest assured the next appointment will be a yes man. Clubs with the balls to appoint and back mavericks tend to do well. Shame we're not one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Orns Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 2 minutes ago, Red Exile said: For the avoidance of doubt…I don't! Ha, you know what I mean! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol Rob Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 An autocratic approach might work if you are managing a group of people who need decisions made for them - maybe some players like to be told what to do, how to do it and are happy to have the thought process diluted. Start behaving in that way further up the food chain and adopting the same approach to the people who pay your wages and sign the cheques and it'll only end one way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 11 hours ago, Harry said: Sorry. Can't say any more as its their jobs, not fair to reveal names. But I know 6 persons employed by the club in some capacity and I know their opinions. I'm guessing they might be connected to the Under 21s and Under 18s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 This is a fantastic thread...at least a bigger picture is hopefully starting to be realised by fans on here. I've said so often...any manager will struggle here. It's like putting oil in water, when it comes to managers and our board. Until the whole club are galvanised, and we have the infrastructure in place to work properly as a Professional Club at this level, then any manager will struggle, and will consequently do things that are short term to save his own ass or his perceived length of contract. If the club want to develop players and have an academy, it has to be closer to the first team...be seemless. You don't need your manager falling out with people, and feeling the need to bring in your mates to 'protect you' or bully others you don't agree with. That's why a manager needs to be found, to work under a Group of people who act as 'Director of Football' for the club. Not bring in a manager, 'who say's I want full control of the club', and make the DoF effectively head scout. That way, you protect the club...and don't allow it to be set back in years. Needless to say...we don't have all that is needed to succeed...so I suspect the next manager will struggle long term as well, until changes are properly made. Take Harry's and Nick J's comments...and they are both right. SC was hard working...but caused way too many problems internally. But Nick is right...what manager can successfully work with this Club and the way it's run? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 7 minutes ago, spudski said: Take Harry's and Nick J's comments...and they are both right. SC was hard working...but caused way too many problems internally. But Nick is right...what manager can successfully work with this Club and the way it's run? Spot on Spud - you summarise it perfectly above mirror my thoughts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Exile Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 2 minutes ago, spudski said: This is a fantastic thread...at least a bigger picture is hopefully starting to be realised by fans on here. The sad thing is that you and I were engaged in a similar discussion at the back end of the Millen era. I don't think it's hard to see what's wrong with a club (or should we say "organisation"?) that lacks a proper board of management, containing experienced people with a range of views who challenge each other to make the correct decisions and hold each other to account. If that doesn't change then history will repeat itself. If I could walk away and turn my back I would…too much of an emotional tie to the club to do that. Depressing to see it being so poorly led. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 Seems to me that almost all posters debating on here with strong views either way have a common opinion - top level management and infrastructure at board level downwards is poor and most managers would struggle. I can't claim to know/understand too much about the inner workings of the club and how it works.. Would be interesting to hear from the posters involved here what they think should be done differently at top level to make us compete with other more established clubs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchay Red Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 7 minutes ago, spudski said: This is a fantastic thread...at least a bigger picture is hopefully starting to be realised by fans on here. I've said so often...any manager will struggle here. It's like putting oil in water, when it comes to managers and our board. Until the whole club are galvanised, and we have the infrastructure in place to work properly as a Professional Club at this level, then any manager will struggle, and will consequently do things that are short term to save his own ass or his perceived length of contract. If the club want to develop players and have an academy, it has to be closer to the first team...be seemless. You don't need your manager falling out with people, and feeling the need to bring in your mates to 'protect you' or bully others you don't agree with. That's why a manager needs to be found, to work under a Group of people who act as 'Director of Football' for the club. Not bring in a manager, 'who say's I want full control of the club', and make the DoF effectively head scout. That way, you protect the club...and don't allow it to be set back in years. Needless to say...we don't have all that is needed to succeed...so I suspect the next manager will struggle long term as well, until changes are properly made. Take Harry's and Nick J's comments...and they are both right. SC was hard working...but caused way too many problems internally. But Nick is right...what manager can successfully work with this Club and the way it's run? This is all well and good, and sound logic, but I can't see things changing. Not under the present regime, which for all the best intentions is actually the root cause IMO. The timing of the dismissal couldn't be much worse. He should have been backed in strengthening the team or let go much sooner. We will now have to make a knee jerk appointment in the desperate hope that we can be saved. And repeat at regular intervals! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natchfever Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 27 minutes ago, Irish_Red said: Contrast the Football Club to the Rugby team.... It's extremely well run, has a clear strategy and blends youth and experience (unlucky not to get promoted last year). Please note as someone mentioned elsewhere that SL appointed one of the most experienced and best coaches in the country, so the backing is there. I have to disagree mate. The coach is shite (Holley) and is widely disliked by Bristol rugby fans. As for the DoR (Robinson) he is a perennial loser. Lives on inheriting Jack Rowells 98 Bath team and being forwards coach to Englands world cup winning team when just about any coach could have done that. He has had a premier league budget since he came and still doesn't deliver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogkev Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 1 hour ago, djb6162 said: thanks for the comments above, can i clear up one thing the rather philosophical post i made above, contained no reference to Wes ? nor did it intend to !! so apologies if i mislead you. My rather biblical reference was a pointer towards people who support somebody whole heatedly and publicly, right up to the moment they are no longer important or indeed no longer a threat or they feel threatened themselves. we should not be surprised now that people are telling what they know and we should not pillar them for it its a debating forum does that make more sense.? i hope so Nothing to do with players or indeed Wes As others have said, on that matter i have to continually bite my tongue for obvious and sensible reason. my thoughts on SC will remain with me and with Wes as far as this forum is concerned. I respect you for being on the forum - top man. My son is 2 years old and seems to have a nice touch with both feet, and one day I hope to be in your shoes. Long way to go yet! Keep up the posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Orns Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 19 minutes ago, spudski said: This is a fantastic thread...at least a bigger picture is hopefully starting to be realised by fans on here. I've said so often...any manager will struggle here. It's like putting oil in water, when it comes to managers and our board. Until the whole club are galvanised, and we have the infrastructure in place to work properly as a Professional Club at this level, then any manager will struggle, and will consequently do things that are short term to save his own ass or his perceived length of contract. If the club want to develop players and have an academy, it has to be closer to the first team...be seemless. You don't need your manager falling out with people, and feeling the need to bring in your mates to 'protect you' or bully others you don't agree with. That's why a manager needs to be found, to work under a Group of people who act as 'Director of Football' for the club. Not bring in a manager, 'who say's I want full control of the club', and make the DoF effectively head scout. That way, you protect the club...and don't allow it to be set back in years. Needless to say...we don't have all that is needed to succeed...so I suspect the next manager will struggle long term as well, until changes are properly made. Take Harry's and Nick J's comments...and they are both right. SC was hard working...but caused way too many problems internally. But Nick is right...what manager can successfully work with this Club and the way it's run? Spud, I've not always agreed with everything you say, but the last month or so it's starting to play out that way As you say, both Nick and Harry talk sense, from completely different ends of the spectrum....doesn't make either wrong, it's the joining up in the middle that we have to do now. As I've said elsewhere, the next appointment is massive for this club. Get it right, happy days, get it wrong......I don't want to think about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djb6162 Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 3 minutes ago, reddogkev said: I respect you for being on the forum - top man. My son is 2 years old and seems to have a nice touch with both feet, and one day I hope to be in your shoes. Long way to go yet! Keep up the posting. thank you that's very kind, keep at it with your son, parent support is so important long road, very frustrating at times, but i would never have swapped those early years of junior football for anything good luck !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exAtyeoMax Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 5 minutes ago, djb6162 said: thank you that's very kind, keep at it with your son, parent support is so important long road, very frustrating at times, but i would never have swapped those early years of junior football for anything good luck !! I really hope he gets his chance soon! Would love to see him at the Euros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Exile Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 11 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said: Seems to me that almost all posters debating on here with strong views either way have a common opinion - top level management and infrastructure at board level downwards is poor and most managers would struggle. I can't claim to know/understand too much about the inner workings of the club and how it works.. Would be interesting to hear from the posters involved here what they think should be done differently at top level to make us compete with other more established clubs? I'm not sure I know a great deal about the inner workings of the club. I've met some of the main players and chatted with them and I watch what goes on, but no more closely than many on here. However, I've got lots of leadership and management experience and I've worked in one of the UK's larger institutions for many years, so I've thought about what good corporate governance looks like... …and I think, in a football context, it looks a bit like Burnley FC. Here's their board: http://www.burnleyfootballclub.com/club/boardroom/ No one person owns everything. Having met their former Chairman, Barry Kilby, I was very impressed that he appeared to see himself as a custodian of a precious local treasure, and you'll see he's stepped aside but retained an interest. For me the contrast with BCFC couldn't be greater, both in terms of the breadth of talent and experience they have at a senior level and the effectiveness with which they've managed their resources in recent years. I think City need a bit of that. But I can't see it happening any time soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 12 hours ago, Harry said: Don't know about the players, but I know a fair few club employees who are overjoyed. I'm with Harry on this one. I was with one of the Directors on Tuesday (here in Bournemouth) and he used to be a youth team player at Bournemouth at the same time Cotts was there. He said that he wasn't a very liked character around the place. This has also been mentioned in the secret footballer book. Its simply fact I'm affraid, however much people may want to believe otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numero Uno Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 46 minutes ago, djb6162 said: which opinion are you referring to exactly ? i made a comment, which i have explained above, that's quite different to giving an opinion and there is a difference. If that comment is enough to put the career of any player in doubt, then frankly, that player is with the wrong club anyway. hope they don't see it the way you do, but you may be right !! It's not how I see it or anyone else on here tbh but how the club see it. I know from personal experience that the club read this forum as I have a mate who put Lee Kendall's appointment on here a couple of years ago, a couple of days before it was announced, and it went straight back to him via the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron-Bcfc Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 If our players weren't such pathetic bottlers then Cotterill would still be in a job. Completely crumble every time a game enters 85 minutes. They're mentally so weak it's a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djb6162 Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 25 minutes ago, Numero Uno said: It's not how I see it or anyone else on here tbh but how the club see it. I know from personal experience that the club read this forum as I have a mate who put Lee Kendall's appointment on here a couple of years ago, a couple of days before it was announced, and it went straight back to him via the club. And that is exactly the kind of thing that i would expect to happen under the example you give. Giving confidential information out on a public forum, irrespective of how you have obtained that information is not fair to any of the parties involved. If you read my comment again i think you will see it crosses none of those boundaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 6 minutes ago, Aaron-Bcfc said: If our players weren't such pathetic bottlers then Cotterill would still be in a job. Completely crumble every time a game enters 85 minutes. They're mentally so weak it's a joke. There's an argument to suggest that perhaps this weak mentality could be cured by different coaching. Look at Ferguson sides, even the poorer ones had a winning mentality. I think coaching/management contributes to our mental capitulation late in games; just as it probably did under GJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Irish_Red Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 51 minutes ago, Loon plage said: I have to disagree mate. The coach is shite (Holley) and is widely disliked by Bristol rugby fans. As for the DoR (Robinson) he is a perennial loser. Lives on inheriting Jack Rowells 98 Bath team and being forwards coach to Englands world cup winning team when just about any coach could have done that. He has had a premier league budget since he came and still doesn't deliver. Point I was trying to make is that the perception of those within the club see the Rugby side as being a well run outfit, good structure etc. Don't have a view on Robinson but he would have been viewed at the time of his appointment as a top coach to come to the club and attract players. I think winning the league well last year and then getting undone over a two legged playoff is harsh but that's another discussion all together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron-Bcfc Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 1 minute ago, Phileas Fogg said: There's an argument to suggest that perhaps this weak mentality could be cured by different coaching. Look at Ferguson sides, even the poorer ones had a winning mentality. I think coaching/management contributes to our mental capitulation late in games; just as it probably did under GJ. I don't think so personally. It's like saying the England manager should be better at getting us to take penalties mentally. Im sure they've all tried but unfortunately they all ultimately fail because English players do not believe they will win when it enters a shootout. Same applies to us when we enter the 90th minute. Cotterill will have prepared them all week, gone over simple defensive methods when under pressure, but that's not easy to replicate in training. If they choose to crumble on match day and abandon simple defensive practises then I don't see how that blame can be passed to Cotterill. I'm sure if he was on that pitch he wouldn't be as pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 2 hours ago, Harry said: Lowly club employees? You'd be surprised who I'm talking about Noggers. Lowly they are not. As for the players, perhaps this bunch are professional enough to give their all regardless of their manager? Unlike that spineless lot we had last time in this league. The King is dead , long live the King . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin1988 Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 2 hours ago, spudski said: SC was hard working...but caused way too many problems internally. But Nick is right...what manager can successfully work with this Club and the way it's run? I think that's a bit harsh. There are people who want 'full control' and there names aren't Steve Cotterill. He was popular with the players and was doing the best he could with the poor support he had from upstairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Army 87 Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 3 hours ago, spudski said: This is a fantastic thread...at least a bigger picture is hopefully starting to be realised by fans on here. I've said so often...any manager will struggle here. It's like putting oil in water, when it comes to managers and our board. Until the whole club are galvanised, and we have the infrastructure in place to work properly as a Professional Club at this level, then any manager will struggle, and will consequently do things that are short term to save his own ass or his perceived length of contract. If the club want to develop players and have an academy, it has to be closer to the first team...be seemless. You don't need your manager falling out with people, and feeling the need to bring in your mates to 'protect you' or bully others you don't agree with. That's why a manager needs to be found, to work under a Group of people who act as 'Director of Football' for the club. Not bring in a manager, 'who say's I want full control of the club', and make the DoF effectively head scout. That way, you protect the club...and don't allow it to be set back in years. Needless to say...we don't have all that is needed to succeed...so I suspect the next manager will struggle long term as well, until changes are properly made. Take Harry's and Nick J's comments...and they are both right. SC was hard working...but caused way too many problems internally. But Nick is right...what manager can successfully work with this Club and the way it's run? Mates who in the long run will likely impact the calibre of manager we can bring in and cost the club considerable pay off. It isn't just one manager goes, another comes in and off we go. There will be a lot of fallout from this and I would expect internally it will take a while to stabilise, time we don't really have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EstoniaTallinnRed Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 4 hours ago, Woodsy said: This is so spot on I have to wonder if you work for the club! SC was always going to be marmite, we knew exactly what we were getting - and don't forget the board hand picked the man, no interview process whatsoever. Two years later they find out they can't work with the man, the man who gave us a much deserved, and long awaited trophy (of note), in the boardroom. The same board who have been 'surprised' at wages in the Championship, the league we were only out of for two years. The same board who had months of preparing for the inevitable promotion There is a book here for someone who wants to write it A dream of a season to an absolute cluster****, it really is the 'City way', isn't it? I wonder if the board are having a look hard look at themselves and wondering if maybe there are one or two people there who are hopelessly out of their depth and need replacing? I doubt it, you can sack the man you chose to take the stick, there's always someone else who would kill for the job You'd better get the next appointment right, we are at such a crucial point in our history. Shiny new stadiums are lovely, but lets be honest, it's what happens on the pitch on a Saturday / Tuesday that matters Yet again City you amaze me, but you've got me. I'm going nowhere, but my God you don't half piss me off They have pissed me off for almost 60 years, apart from the few seasons of success under AD and GJ and of course last season with SC. To my mind and my experience, whoever the Board are, they never ever seem to learn and never ever seem to want to improve, despite what they say. Like you, I will still follow my one and only team, even if now from a great distance and just hope that things will get better and the right appointment will be made soon. Let's just hope the new Head Coach, players, with possibly some experienced additions, can get us out of this mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 Awkward. http://www.theleaguepaper.com/featured/3649/good-bad-the-ugly-bristol-city-striker-aaron-wilbraham/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcusX Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 On 15/01/2016 at 07:09, djb6162 said: And before others criticise Harry, he hasnt even begun to tell you what he really should say. yawn. More "ITK" look at me i know things attention seeking. Either spill the beans or shut up, its simple. Surely its in the fans best interests to know whats going on? It would be so much easier to support whoever is in the "right" if we knew the facts. THe clubs bigger than any one person, be it player, manager, chairman or some ITK fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchay Red Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 5 minutes ago, MarcusX said: yawn. More "ITK" look at me i know things attention seeking. Either spill the beans or shut up, its simple. Surely its in the fans best interests to know whats going on? It would be so much easier to support whoever is in the "right" if we knew the facts. THe clubs bigger than any one person, be it player, manager, chairman or some ITK fan. Bit of respect for the father of one of our promising young players wouldn't go amiss. He posts as much as he can in his position, and keeps it entirely factual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcusX Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 5 minutes ago, Frenchay Red said: Bit of respect for the father of one of our promising young players wouldn't go amiss. He posts as much as he can in his position, and keeps it entirely factual. Yea fair point now I realise who I quoted I take that back. Apologies @djb6162 ... Its just frustrating hearing people talk like they know what is going on but wont say anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 On 15/01/2016 at 10:55, Aaron-Bcfc said: If our players weren't such pathetic bottlers then Cotterill would still be in a job. Completely crumble every time a game enters 85 minutes. They're mentally so weak it's a joke. Or physically tired due to a wafer thin squad. Probably a bit of both truth be told. They are not pathetic.. Once it happens once or twice seeds of doubt creep in, its what your mind does. If there is a issue mentally then non of the coach's are ever going to help... You need a different type of coach and it takes a long time to get your mind thinking differently. Pathetic is not something I would accuse this bunch of player of. Some may not be quite good enough but as a group one of the best bunches we have had for many a long year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 On 14 January 2016 at 21:41, Frenchay Red said: There, that's nearer the truth Cardiff have just been given a transfer embargo because they breached ffp. Steve will spend but can only do so within the ffp limits. As we have one of the lowest turnovers in the championship and aren;t receiving parachute payments ( Cardif have and have still breached ffp) , our spending ability is limited - not because the owner won't put his hand in his pocket but because the rules don't let him. Spending £50m on the stadium looks like a man doing things on the cheap, but that's where ffp does let him spend without limits! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchay Red Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 2 minutes ago, downendcity said: Cardiff have just been given a transfer embargo because they breached ffp. Steve will spend but can only do so within the ffp limits. As we have one of the lowest turnovers in the championship and aren;t receiving parachute payments ( Cardif have and have still breached ffp) , our spending ability is limited - not because the owner won't put his hand in his pocket but because the rules don't let him. Spending £50m on the stadium looks like a man doing things on the cheap, but that's where ffp does let him spend without limits! We seem to have had a self imposed transfer embargo. Can't imagine it was all down to Cotts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djb6162 Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 2 hours ago, MarcusX said: Yea fair point now I realise who I quoted I take that back. Apologies @djb6162 ... Its just frustrating hearing people talk like they know what is going on but wont say anything. Understood and accepted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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