We Can Compete In The Championship If We Avoid Some Or All Of These Own Goals:

[Jack Dawe]

Split between owner and manager 

Targetting unrealistic new signings (and/or, owner/board scuppering agreed deals)

Releasing Championship experienced player before getting in replacement

Signing one player in summer

Loans not used

A thin squad

Subs not used enough, or not good enough (few options beyond same X1 every week)

Playing a 36 year old every week when plain to see not good enough at this level

New player leaves within few weeks after alleged training ground fight

Poor psychology: repeated statement "we can't compete" as team struggles to compete

Unchanging tactics despite poor results

Sacking the manager halfway into January window

A lack of strong, visible leadership from the board room

Fans getting on backs of our own players, especially younger players

 

 

(Whether real, imagined, or half-truths, enough of this list is what has been going on and is responsible, primarily, for the poor results and being third bottom. It would seem).

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Good job we've been ok by and large for injuries up until LA last week. There must be many more problems, you might be able to think of some, and many subtle ones we are not aware of. But, is it any wonder we have not been competitive in the Championship with all this going on? Any club will struggle to put out a "competitive" team with all this going on. That it comes on the back of a promotion is unbelievable.

I'm not so sure the players aren't good enough. I think they have been let down by their "superiors" whether that be Cotts, the board/owner, or a combination of the two. They needed a strong, organised club to instill confidence and belief as they stepped up a level, and they got all (or most of) the above. Shocking. These players deserve our best and fullest support every game now, including the 36 year old! And especially the young ones, Burns for example.

I think next time we are in this league, we can compete, if we avoid the first problem. And two or three others. Then the rest of the problems don't necessarily materialise. It's not as impossible as has been suggested, Preston show this. The standard from PNE, 14th, downwards (almost half the league, is not beyond us, or unattainable, in my opinion. Without the top three issues above, I believe we would be more than ok this season, comfortably midtable.

If you've got a problem with things this season, take your question to SL's q&a at Forest, otherwise support the team on matchdays 100%! Anyone getting on any players backs now are f$#@wits and they can f#@$ off. The team need us on their side. I know that the majority are but we need to respond when the tw$ts that pick on Pack or Wes or any of ours open their mouths. As sick of this as I am of the shambles behind the scenes.

You Reds!

[exAtyeoMax]

2 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

Split between owner and manager 

Targetting unrealistic new signings (and/or, owner/board scuppering agreed deals)

Releasing Championship experienced player before getting in replacement

Signing one player in summer

Loans not used

A thin squad

Subs not used enough, or not good enough (few options beyond same X1 every week)

Playing a 36 year old every week when plain to see not good enough at this level

New player leaves within few weeks after alleged training ground fight

Poor psychology: repeated statement "we can't compete" as team struggles to compete

Unchanging tactics despite poor results

Sacking the manager halfway into January window

A lack of strong, visible leadership from the board room

Fans getting on backs of our own players, especially younger players

 

 

(Whether real, imagined, or half-truths, enough of this list is what has been going on and is responsible, primarily, for the poor results and being third bottom. It would seem).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good job we've been ok by and large for injuries up until LA last week. There must be many more problems, you might be able to think of some, and many subtle ones we are not aware of. But, is it any wonder we have not been competitive in the Championship with all this going on? Any club will struggle to put out a "competitive" team with all this going on. That it comes on the back of a promotion is unbelievable.

I'm not so sure the players aren't good enough. I think they have been let down by their "superiors" whether that be Cotts, the board/owner, or a combination of the two. They needed a strong, organised club to instill confidence and belief as they stepped up a level, and they got all (or most of) the above. Shocking. These players deserve our best and fullest support every game now, including the 36 year old! And especially the young ones, Burns for example.

I think next time we are in this league, we can compete, if we avoid the first problem. And two or three others. Then the rest of the problems don't necessarily materialise. It's not as impossible as has been suggested, Preston show this. The standard from PNE, 14th, downwards (almost half the league, is not beyond us, or unattainable, in my opinion. Without the top three issues above, I believe we would be more than ok this season, comfortably midtable.

If you've got a problem with things this season, take your question to SL's q&a at Forest, otherwise support the team on matchdays 100%! Anyone getting on any players backs now are f$#@wits and they can f#@$ off. The team need us on their side. I know that the majority are but we need to respond when the tw$ts that pick on Pack or Wes or any of ours open their mouths. As sick of this as I am of the shambles behind the scenes.

You Reds!

I would say most of these had already been remedied, or no longer apply. We can't change the fact that we only signed one player in the summer though, until this summer…

[redapple]

Most of those problems are now behind us and hopefully learned from . If we can get one or two quality loan signings who might notch a dozen goals before May there's no reason we can't turn draws into victories and defeats into draws and climb the table . 

Criticism of the fans is a bit unfair , backing has been generally good and partisan this season . Nobody should be exempt from criticism or criticising , and any criticism has been fair . If you want to live in a 1984 world go support MK Dons . 

I've got no issue with Wilbs (he's been great for us) but I can't see why we shouldn't have pointed out to SC that he was absolutely knackered after 60 mins and needed replacing . Likewise I don't see why the crowd shouldn't show their frustration when a winger puts 3 crosses into the stand when there's 3 guys waiting for a cross in the area . 

[Ivorguy]

I believe Jack Dawe is spot on with his list

We are still suffering from the effects of all of these points

The club need to enter the 21st century and provid clear and comprehensive answers to all these points as well as outlining where the club is headed over next two years.

The lack of planning in all areas of the club is truly worrying

[LondonBristolian]

This list seems accurate.  I do think we're starting to put right what went wrong but we should have acted far sooner.

I actually think, harsh though it sounds, the biggest error in retrospect was not sacking Steve Cotterill as soon as it became clear there was a split between the manager and the board and that it was impacting on us as a club.  Which I think we got wind of by SC's interviews pre-season (certainly I remember people talking about it then).  Yes, the board would have got absolutely panned for binning a successful manager before the start of a new season but it may have been sadly necessary and avoided many of the subsequent problems.

To be clear, this isn't to say that I think what happened over the summer was Cotterill's fault.  There seems to be plenty of evidence many of the early struggles around transfers were out of his control and an area where the board, whether or not to blame, need to take responsibility for the decisions that were made.  But ultimately when a manager who cannot work with the board and is making veiled criticisms of them in public (and perhaps even sending messages in his team selection), it's only going to end one way and the quicker that happens, the less destruction is caught in the wake.  Instead we had 6 drawn out months of things slowly unravelling which did nobody any good.

[Jack Dawe]

1 hour ago, redapple said:

Most of those problems are now behind us and hopefully learned from . If we can get one or two quality loan signings who might notch a dozen goals before May there's no reason we can't turn draws into victories and defeats into draws and climb the table . 

Criticism of the fans is a bit unfair , backing has been generally good and partisan this season . Nobody should be exempt from criticism or criticising , and any criticism has been fair . If you want to live in a 1984 world go support MK Dons . 

I've got no issue with Wilbs (he's been great for us) but I can't see why we shouldn't have pointed out to SC that he was absolutely knackered after 60 mins and needed replacing . Likewise I don't see why the crowd shouldn't show their frustration when a winger puts 3 crosses into the stand when there's 3 guys waiting for a cross in the area . 

Thanks for your reply. You've said you don't see why the crowd shouldn't show their frustration, so I will give my thoughts on why I think it is self-defeating.

First though, I agree many of these things have been addressed although if anyone thinks some of them won't be seen here again in future years, you're deluded (to use the parlance of Otib there, just for a moment).

My "criticism of the fans" was more specific than that, it was criticism of those that turn on our own players, especially our younger players. Have you heard of the phrase cutting your nose off to spite your face? 

So you are frustrated. Okay. That's understandable, and you're not alone. But what's most important, your frustration, or what's running through the winger's mind as he hears the unmistakable frustration of some of the crowd? And what's running through his mind the next time he has the ball on the wing and there's 3 guys waiting in the area.

If people loudly express their frustration, especially with younger players, don't be surprised if the next cross into the area is shite too. It's unlikely to be any better because you've paid your money and you've a right to express your frustration and you do so. In fact, next time, expect him to take another touch, to turn back and pass it to someone behind him to cross it. Expect him to go into his shell. To play safe. To pass sideways and back. Or to hide, not be available. To inexplicably not run into that gaping space we can all see. And then you'll have more opportunities to show your frustration. 

Empathy. Just try imagining being in the winger's shoes for a moment. Have you ever done something with a few people watching. Imagine one or two of them telling you you're a **** then try it again. Now imagine attempting this with 15000 watching. "But he's paid so much to do it..." but the negative feedback from some creates a fearful attitude. Who does their best when fearful, when the fear of things going wrong and the reaction to this is foremost in their minds? Not me.

The crowd shouldn't show their frustration because it is self-defeating. It is increasing the likelihood of the source of the frustration, the thing you don't want to see, happening again, in my opinion. That's why.

If showing your frustration worked for our players or the team, we would be doing a lot better by now. There's been no shortage of this down the years. And people on here forever trot out Einstein's "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"!

Can you think of a player that has been improved by the crowd showing him their frustration?

It's an own goal. And in a nip and tuck relegation battle, we could do without it.

If you don't think he's good enough and shouldn't be playing, fine. No problem with having an opinion. Say it on here, email the club or JP, go to SL's q&a, write to The Post, call in to Geoff 20, discuss with mates, but don't think it will do anything positive for the team.

If the players were not trying, had a poor attitude and were taking the piss, I'd have no problem with giving them some grief. But this is not the case. They might not be good enough, lack the talent for this level, but shouting at them won't change this. As you can see from my OP a lot happens before any of the players get anywhere near crossing the ball into row Z; cock this up and we're up against it. None of that is Wes Burns fault.

What you're really doing is venting your frustration at Wes when you are pissed off with the club and/or the manager, in my opinion. Try aiming it where it belongs, and give as much backing to the team as you can manage on match days. The team need it.

[phantom]

32 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

Empathy. Just try imagining being in the winger's shoes for a moment. Have you ever done something with a few people watching. Imagine one or two of them telling you you're a **** then try it again. Now imagine attempting this with 15000 watching. "But he's paid so much to do it..." but the negative feedback from some creates a fearful attitude. Who does their best when fearful, when the fear of things going wrong and the reaction to this is foremost in their minds? Not me.

To me, if a player is that sensitive then they are definately in the wrong career choice !

Very few footballers have constant periods of success, it is just part of the game - maybe hearing the critique actually makes them improve as a player?

At the end of the day all of us can improve in our jobs 

[Jack Dawe]

15 minutes ago, phantom said:

To me, if a player is that sensitive then they are definately in the wrong career choice !

Very few footballers have constant periods of success, it is just part of the game - maybe hearing the critique actually makes them improve as a player?

At the end of the day all of us can improve in our jobs 

You might well be right but I'm looking at our immediate predicament. We've got 15 or 16 players to get us out of the hole we are in, Wes Burns is one of them, if and when next called on to play, will the stick he took last Saturday "improve" his crossing, for example?

Does he need people to shout at him to let him know putting a cross into the crowd is crap? 

It's just part of the game - but is it a negative, self-defeating part of the game? I reckon it is.

Long term, Wes or someone else might be too sensitive to make it, I don't know. But he might be needed in the last ten mins of Huddersfield at home, and I don't think the more frustrated elements of our crowd offering their "critique," as you generously put it, is going to result in a better outcome, the outcome they and all of us want to see.

Again, I ask: name a player improved by the "critique" of the crowd?

This self-defeating attitude is so ingrained, people can't see it. It's as though I'm suggesting we all applaud and cheer for the opposition every week.

Do we want the players, over the next few weeks, to be bold and brave, or timid and safe? I think the crowd showing their frustration will have some say with at least some of our players in this and it is possible it will work against us, not for us.