Emiliano Sala

[poland_exile]

30 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

The other thing is you trust the pilot. I once boarded a commercial flight that was delayed for two hours, then had what was announced as a “final attempt to to see if we can fix it tonight” and then, once we had all boarded, had a power cut-out when they turned it on before taxiing. I was scared and concerned when they still carried on anyway but said nothing as I rationalised the pilots knew what they were doing, it was a commercial air company that had a reputation to protect and so it must be safe or else they would not be doing it. Often you just assume and trust professionals know what they are doing.

totally - it's in our nature to trust that others know what they're doing in their profession of choosing.

I'm not, incidentally, casting aspersions on the pilot - it's just that when i board a plane, no matter what the conditions, I'm fully expecting to land in one piece. No-one in their right mind would fly if they were told, 'by the way, there's a good chance we might not make it.' I imagine Sala was the same. Likewise, I'd be pretty confident that the pilot had every expectation of completing the flight. 

I can't get my head round this story. Feel so sorry for all those personally effected. 

[Super]

Dalman says the flight was certainly not organised by the club, which rules out the possibility of it being Tan’s plane I should think.

According to Simon Jordan, agents usually organise travel in these instances and invoice the club.

[slartibartfast]

News just said  there's a reasonable chance they are in a life raft................must have some good reason for coming out with that 

[lenred]

3 minutes ago, slartibartfast said:

News just said  there's a reasonable chance they are in a life raft................must have some good reason for coming out with that 

Fingers and everything else crossed! 

[Taz]

21 minutes ago, slartibartfast said:

News just said  there's a reasonable chance they are in a life raft................must have some good reason for coming out with that 

Surely they would have been spotted by now with the amount of planes that would have been out searching though? 

You really hope that this is the case, but part of me thinks that things like that are being said more in hope than anything else.

[JoeAman08]

4 minutes ago, Taz said:

Surely they would have been spotted by now with the amount of planes that would have been out searching though? 

You really hope that this is the case, but part of me thinks that things like that are being said more in hope than anything else.

I agree with what you are saying but hope is still a good thing. Think we are all aware the longer not found the odds of a happy ending dwindle but I still hope they can be found alive. 

[Jerseybean]

Here is the latest Jersey media account: 

https://www.bailiwickexpress.com/jsy/news/emiliano-sala-whatsapp-tributes-vigil/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Bailiwick Express - Jersey News Email&utm_content=Bailiwick Express - Jersey News Email+CID_3ae0fd4362b975e326e5b69e1241f2b5&utm_source=Email marketing software&utm_term=READ MORE#.XEhagBqnyf0

 

 

[BRISTOL86]

Speculation online that the pilot was vastly experienced with 100+ single engine channel crossings. 

What I can’t fathom is why not fly commercial. At night in the middle of winter, it just seems such an unnecessary risk. You can fly through AMS and be in Cardiff in 4 hours. 

[CliftonCliff]

5 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Speculation online that the pilot was vastly experienced with 100+ single engine channel crossings. 

What I can’t fathom is why not fly commercial. At night in the middle of winter, it just seems such an unnecessary risk. You can fly through AMS and be in Cardiff in 4 hours. 

I haven’t read everything that’s been written on this aspect of the story, so apologies if this has already been covered, but I’m not clear whether this was a flight being provided by a properly registered and regulated commercial operator, albeit on a private charter basis, or just an arrangement with some bloke with a private pilot’s licence and a single engined plane. If it’s the latter then I agree it does seem a strange thing to do. Experienced pilot or not, I’m pretty sure air accident statistics would show you are safer flying with a commercial operator. I have been on short flights in light aircraft on numerous occasions just for fun, and enjoyed it, but I’m buggered if I’d undertake something like this. You just feel so sorry for the poor sod: like others I have been surprised at my own reactions and just how upsetting I’ve found it. Very, very sad.

[BRISTOL86]

3 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

I haven’t read everything that’s been written on this aspect of the story, so apologies if this has already been covered, but I’m not clear whether this was a flight being provided by a properly registered and regulated commercial operator, albeit on a private charter basis, or just an arrangement with some bloke with a private pilot’s licence and a single engined plane. If it’s the latter then I agree it does seem a strange thing to do. Experienced pilot or not, I’m pretty sure air accident statistics would show you are safer flying with a commercial operator. I have been on short flights in light aircraft on numerous occasions just for fun, and enjoyed it, but I’m buggered if I’d undertake something like this. You just feel so sorry for the poor sod: like others I have been surprised at my own reactions and just how upsetting I’ve found it. Very, very sad.

Sure everything will come out in the fullness of time regarding how and by whom the flight was arranged.

The whole thing just seems very odd - IFR flight over water in the dark in a single engine, in conditions where icing is likely to be present. Pretty much everything you’d want to avoid, and when it was so avoidable, it seems incredible that those risks were taken when a (not difficult) commercial alternative was available. 

[alexukhc]

His gf seems to think the mafia are involved

[chowie]

BBC seem to be in the area

[phantom]

31 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Speculation online that the pilot was vastly experienced with 100+ single engine channel crossings. 

What I can’t fathom is why not fly commercial. At night in the middle of winter, it just seems such an unnecessary risk. You can fly through AMS and be in Cardiff in 4 hours. 

Possibly there were no flights back to Cardiff from Southern France?

He was returning to say his immediate farewells etc before coming back to Cardiff ready for training the next morning, so time was key and flying this way it would be more flexible

12 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

I haven’t read everything that’s been written on this aspect of the story, so apologies if this has already been covered, but I’m not clear whether this was a flight being provided by a properly registered and regulated commercial operator, albeit on a private charter basis, or just an arrangement with some bloke with a private pilot’s licence and a single engined plane.

Thing is this flight had probably been done thousands of times before and will be thousands of times again

[handsofclay]

2 hours ago, Spike said:

This genuinely makes me feel sick, I hate flying, the idea of getting on a plane that looks like it's going to fall apart and then doesn't start, no way I would have got on it.
What I don't understand is why he got on it, surely after making a big money transfer he would have been in a position to say "I don't feel comfortable getting on that plane!". That said, I suppose it's easy to say that with hindsight. I just can't imagine what his father must be thinking right now.

Unfortunately, machismo kicks in. With the Munich Air Crash it was stated afterwards that many on board were apprehensive about boarding the plane a third time after two aborted takeoffs in the snow, yet nobody said that they refuse to get on board. Had someone done so there's a good chance others would've followed the lead. Sometimes the bravest thing of all is to be the first to admit that you are too scared to do something and thus refuse to do it.

Similar machismo kicked in with the deaths in plane crashes of music stars Buddy Holly, The Big Bopper and Richie Valens in 1959 and Otis Redding and the Barkays in 1967. In the latter case, they boarded Redding's private aircraft and, according to the only survivor, were apprehensive when the pilot said that the battery was low but hoped there was enough juice in it (in freezing cold weather) to get them from Cleveland, Ohio to Madison, Wisconsin! Indeed, the heating in the plane couldnt be turned on for this reason. Yet, they all boarded without a whimper.

[phantom]

Seems the search area has moved Southerly

[Super]

Wonder why the pilot hasn't been named yet?

[phantom]

1 minute ago, Super said:

Wonder why the pilot hasn't been named yet?

Very true, things like this normally come out in the news fairly quickly

[RedM]

Watching BBC news now. Hopes fading as we knew, still searching. UK involved as plane was coming here but also have to coordinate with France as that’s where the plane took off and Argentina as he was Argentinian. Also said the plane was UK owned but registered in the US so liaising with them too. Very complicated. A flight plan would have to have been submitted so looking at that too.

[TETBURY MASSIVE]

13 minutes ago, Super said:

Wonder why the pilot hasn't been named yet?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8261010/emiliano-sala-plane-pilot-revealed-brit-dave-ibbotson/

[KeepUpLino]

23 minutes ago, handsofclay said:

Unfortunately, machismo kicks in. With the Munich Air Crash it was stated afterwards that many on board were apprehensive about boarding the plane a third time after two aborted takeoffs in the snow, yet nobody said that they refuse to get on board. Had someone done so there's a good chance others would've followed the lead. Sometimes the bravest thing of all is to be the first to admit that you are too scared to do something and thus refuse to do it.

Similar machismo kicked in with the deaths in plane crashes of music stars Buddy Holly, The Big Bopper and Richie Valens in 1959 and Otis Redding and the Barkays in 1967. In the latter case, they boarded Redding's private aircraft and, according to the only survivor, were apprehensive when the pilot said that the battery was low but hoped there was enough juice in it (in freezing cold weather) to get them from Cleveland, Ohio to Madison, Wisconsin! Indeed, the heating in the plane couldnt be turned on for this reason. Yet, they all boarded without a whimper.

Surely there’s another word that better suits that feeling of just going along with something? We recently had it on a Ryanair flight That aborted takeoff at the last minute, we were all shaken up and worried yet only one bloke was openly freaking out about taking off again an hour later... I can tell you there was nothing macho about saying nothing, you just naturally go along with what’s happening and don’t want to panic others.. 

[LondonBristolian]

37 minutes ago, phantom said:

Very true, things like this normally come out in the news fairly quickly

Some newspapers thought they had named the pilot yesterday. Then someone who appears to be the named pilot posted on social media clarifying he was still alive and so there has been confusion. I think papers are now holding back because of the confusion. 

[Super]

Sky News Breaking

 

@SkyNewsBreak

 

Channel Islands Air Search says the operation to find a missing plane carrying Cardiff City footballer Emiliano Sala has become a recovery operation

as officials confirmed they will decide later today whether to continue looking for the pair.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Super

[chowie]

An eerie video on BBC about the dangers of flying small Aircraft, the Aircraft he talks through is the actual one they are looking for N264DB

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazine-34492176/my-life-as-a-ferry-pilot

[LondonBristolian]

15 minutes ago, chowie said:

An eerie video on BBC about the dangers of flying small Aircraft, the Aircraft he talks through is the actual one they are looking for N264DB

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazine-34492176/my-life-as-a-ferry-pilot

Worth stressing this is actually the chap who was named yesterday who now appears to have clarified on Facebook that he is alive. The papers are now giving a different name - Dave Ibbotson. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

The Times is reporting that the plane belonged to Willie Mackay the Scottish football agent

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/s...ckay-28h7k8vc8

Emiliano Sala was travelling on a plane believed to belong to Scottish agent Willie McKay when he disappeared over the English Channel. The Argentine forward, who became Cardiff City’s record signing after joining the club from Nantes in a £15 million transfer last week, is feared dead after his light aircraft disappeared from radar screens, although a search has resumed this morning.

Sala was travelling in a Piper PA-46 Malibu aircraft, a single-engine, six-seat plane, with the pilot the only other passenger on board as he made the journey back to Cardiff on Monday evening after returning to Nantes to say goodbye to his former team-mates. The plane is registered to a holding company in Suffolk called Southern Aircraft Consultancy, with a registration number N264DB, but is believed to be owned by McKay, an influential and experienced agent.

McKay is not Sala’s representative, but was involved in brokering the transfer between Cardiff and Nantes and appears to have offered to arrange the player’s travel arrangements. The plane has yet to be found, but there is no suggestion that it suffered a technical fault or was unsuitable for making such a journey. McKay has excellent contacts clubs in the south of France in particular and has brought many French and African players to the Premier League over the years. McKay had not responded to The Times at the time of publication.

[Eddie Hitler]

1 hour ago, handsofclay said:

Unfortunately, machismo kicks in. With the Munich Air Crash it was stated afterwards that many on board were apprehensive about boarding the plane a third time after two aborted takeoffs in the snow, yet nobody said that they refuse to get on board. Had someone done so there's a good chance others would've followed the lead. Sometimes the bravest thing of all is to be the first to admit that you are too scared to do something and thus refuse to do it.

Similar machismo kicked in with the deaths in plane crashes of music stars Buddy Holly, The Big Bopper and Richie Valens in 1959 and Otis Redding and the Barkays in 1967. In the latter case, they boarded Redding's private aircraft and, according to the only survivor, were apprehensive when the pilot said that the battery was low but hoped there was enough juice in it (in freezing cold weather) to get them from Cleveland, Ohio to Madison, Wisconsin! Indeed, the heating in the plane couldnt be turned on for this reason. Yet, they all boarded without a whimper.

As @KeepUpLino said I don't think it's machismo; it's more about continuing with regular activities despite the warning signs.  I've never refused to board a plane, and I've never had any reason not to, but to stand up and refuse to board a plane because it's been having trouble would seem odd.  Maybe it's past experience overriding the current situation.  A better word would maybe be "habit".

I'm not entirely compliant, for instance I flat refuse to drive in snow; to the point where I would rather lose my job rather than drive in it.  This stems from the very rational view (IMO) that the last time I drove in snow I crashed because of the snow so I'm not doing it again.

Planes though: there are loads of safety rules and preflight checks these days, you're on with a vastly experienced pilot who knows the risks and is as much in danger as you are if things go wrong.  Essentially you're trusting the pilot rather than the plane.

1959 was an awfully long time ago and rules were much slacker. 

[Olé]

20 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

The Times is reporting that the plane belonged to Willie Mackay the Scottish football agent

That rings a bell, wasn't he Ade Akinbiyi's agent when we sold him?

Not to change the tone of the thread, which of course is deeply sympathetic and remorseful, I am struck by these continued reports of a distraught dad talking to media in Argentina. I would imagine he would want to be as close as possible to the operation, even if he is helpless to do anything more, not fielding impossible questions from the other side of the world - I wonder what all these agents and dealmakers are doing to make that happen? Not suggesting they are not, but it doesn't seem to have happened, and yet they all obviously fell over themselves to take their cut of Sala's transfer.

[phantom]

48 minutes ago, chowie said:

An eerie video on BBC about the dangers of flying small Aircraft, the Aircraft he talks through is the actual one they are looking for N264DB

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazine-34492176/my-life-as-a-ferry-pilot

Very eye opening @chowie

My ex brother in law used to fly Mick Hucknall around Europe in one of those, he often said it was the additional ££ on offer was the only reason he did the work

[CliftonCliff]

1 hour ago, chowie said:

An eerie video on BBC about the dangers of flying small Aircraft, the Aircraft he talks through is the actual one they are looking for N264DB

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazine-34492176/my-life-as-a-ferry-pilot

Thanks for posting that. Disturbingly relevant, as you say. The particularly unnerving thing about it was his reference to the ten or a dozen experienced small aircraft pilots known to him personally who have died as a result of baffling and inexplicable errors. Statistically rare, I know, but still doesn't fill you with confidence.

I know next to nothing about commercial flying and am happy to be corrected by anybody who is better informed, but common sense tells you that in this situation you are in the hands of a single individual, not a Captain and First Officer/Flight Engineer or whatever, so if he makes an error, falls ill (been known), or something similar, there is no back up, no one to take over, spot the problem early or rectify it, and much more limited equipment, compared with the highly computerised systems on modern passenger planes, to assist when technical problems occur or a mistake is made.  

As it happens, I have a near neighbour who happens to be a BA captain on long-haul routes and by a coincidence my wife and I are seeing him and his misses later for a drink. Like a lot of them, he is ex-RAF (fast jets), so there isn't much he hasn't experienced when it comes to flying. I'll be very interested to get his take on what's happened here.

Edited January 23, 2019 by CliftonCliff
Error

[Super]

Quote from pilots forum

"It is understood Mr Ibbotson, had been hired along with the Norfolk-registered single engine plane, by Sala’s representatives to fly the player to Cardiff after he had said his farewells to team-mates at his old club Nantes.
Mr Ibbotson, who worked as a gas engineer based in Crowle, is believed to have had extensive experience carrying parachute enthusiasts on flights from private airfields.
One picture shows him him at the controls of a light aircraft in a selfie with a parachute jumper."

Ideal chap to be flying a complex single at night, IFR in dodgy icing conditions. Sala's reps and the owner of the aircraft have some serious questions to answer if this is true. After 30 years as a professional pilot with all the checks you have to pass along the way I can't believe that such stupidity is still going on. And organisations like Wingly, Grant Shaps red tape challenge and the supine attitude of the CAA have done nothing to enhance safety.

I am so angry at the death of Mr Sala. Save a few quid, probably break any number of laws, kill someone. What a disgusting waste of life and talent.

[PHILINFRANCE]

17 minutes ago, Super said:

Quote from pilots forum

"It is understood Mr Ibbotson, had been hired along with the Norfolk-registered single engine plane, by Sala’s representatives to fly the player to Cardiff after he had said his farewells to team-mates at his old club Nantes.
Mr Ibbotson, who worked as a gas engineer based in Crowle, is believed to have had extensive experience carrying parachute enthusiasts on flights from private airfields.
One picture shows him him at the controls of a light aircraft in a selfie with a parachute jumper."

Ideal chap to be flying a complex single at night, IFR in dodgy icing conditions. Sala's reps and the owner of the aircraft have some serious questions to answer if this is true. After 30 years as a professional pilot with all the checks you have to pass along the way I can't believe that such stupidity is still going on. And organisations like Wingly, Grant Shaps red tape challenge and the supine attitude of the CAA have done nothing to enhance safety.

I am so angry at the death of Mr Sala. Save a few quid, probably break any number of laws, kill someone. What a disgusting waste of life and talent.

I can't make out from your post whether the entire post is from the pilots' forum or just the first secton within the quotation marks, i.e. are the second and third paragraphs your comments or from the forum?

[Super]

18 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

I can't make out from your post whether the entire post is from the pilots' forum or just the first secton within the quotation marks, i.e. are the second and third paragraphs your comments or from the forum?

It's all from the forum. post 160

 

 

Edited January 23, 2019 by Super

[Owl Visiting]

59 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

As it happens, I have a near neighbour who happens to be a BA captain on long-haul routes and by a coincidence my wife and I are seeing him and his misses later for a drink. Like a lot of them, he is ex-RAF (fast jets), so there isn't much he hasn't experienced when it comes to flying. I'll be very interested to get his take on what's happened here.

Lad who I went to school with did the same, he was captaining these massive things in the RAF at 26 and now flies Boeing 787 Dreamliners for BA. Must earn a fortune.

We always knew he'd go on to do well, really clever, popular, captain of the school football team etc etc.

Talented sod.

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

2 minutes ago, Owl Visiting said:

Lad who I went to school with did the same, he was captaining these massive things in the RAF at 26 and now flies Boeing 787 Dreamliners for BA. Must earn a fortune.

We always knew he'd go on to do well, really clever, popular, captain of the school football team etc etc.

Talented sod.

Wasn't called David Watts was he?

[Andy082005]

10 hours ago, Dollymarie said:

"I'm on a plane that looks like it's going to fall apart, and I'm leaving for Cardiff," Sala said in a WhatsApp audio message carried by Argentine media.

"If in an hour and a half you have no news from me, I don't know if they will send people to look for me, because they will not find me, you know. Dad, I'm so scared," he added.

 Surely someone checks that planes are fit to fly? 

Begs the question why you would even get on it if it was that bad?

[CliftonCliff]

24 minutes ago, Owl Visiting said:

Lad who I went to school with did the same, he was captaining these massive things in the RAF at 26 and now flies Boeing 787 Dreamliners for BA. Must earn a fortune.

We always knew he'd go on to do well, really clever, popular, captain of the school football team etc etc.

Talented sod.

Makes you sick doesn't it? I bet the sod was good lucking and got all the girls, too. The bloke I know is a bit like that. Small guy, quietly spoken, modest, unassuming and very level-headed, but he's done all this really impressive stuff. I suppose when you've accomplished all that you don't need to big yourself up - your achievements speak for themselves. You would trust him though: if you do have to jet halfway round the world at 30,000 feet and eye-watering speed in a glorified tin can, he's just the sort of bloke you'd want flying it. Not fair to draw unfavourable comparisons with the guy piloting the lost plane without knowing the full facts, of course, but you do wonder... 

[Owl Visiting]

15 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

Makes you sick doesn't it? I bet the sod was good lucking and got all the girls, too. The bloke I know is a bit like that. Small guy, quietly spoken, modest, unassuming and very level-headed, but he's done all this really impressive stuff. I suppose when you've accomplished all that you don't need to big yourself up - your achievements speak for themselves. You would trust him though: if you do have to jet halfway round the world at 30,000 feet and eye-watering speed in a glorified tin can, he's just the sort of bloke you'd want flying it. Not fair to draw unfavourable comparisons with the guy piloting the lost plane without knowing the full facts, of course, but you do wonder... 

Yep. A nice guy as well which almost makes it even more annoying! 

[YorkshireSection]

11 hours ago, Dollymarie said:

"I'm on a plane that looks like it's going to fall apart, and I'm leaving for Cardiff," Sala said in a WhatsApp audio message carried by Argentine media.

"If in an hour and a half you have no news from me, I don't know if they will send people to look for me, because they will not find me, you know. Dad, I'm so scared," he added.

 Surely someone checks that planes are fit to fly? 

Im stunned and disgusted, with all the money in football, the guy gets put on a plane that looks like its falling apart!

[phantom]

2 hours ago, Super said:

Ideal chap to be flying a complex single at night, IFR in dodgy icing conditions. Sala's reps and the owner of the aircraft have some serious questions to answer if this is true. 

This really doesn't make sense to me, saying the pilot was ideal then the following sentence does not read correctly? 

I guess @PHILINFRANCEread it the same? 

[Natchfever]

11 minutes ago, phantom said:

This really doesn't make sense to me, saying the pilot was ideal then the following sentence does not read correctly? 

I guess @PHILINFRANCEread it the same? 

Misplaced sarcasm I guess as the pilot has almost certainly lost his life but possibly better choices as pilot if those facebook posts are to be believed which were worrying.

[PHILINFRANCE]

14 minutes ago, phantom said:

This really doesn't make sense to me, saying the pilot was ideal then the following sentence does not read correctly? 

I guess @PHILINFRANCEread it the same? 

I am assuming there was some sarcasm in the 'ideal' bit....

[formerly known as ivan]

1 hour ago, Andy082005 said:

Begs the question why you would even get on it if it was that bad?

Guess it’s one of those things where you think the worse and then probably feel stupid for thinking it. Then the next thing on your mind is let’s get on, get there and in a few hours I will be tucked up in bed laughing about how worried I felt

[Davefevs]

5 hours ago, handsofclay said:

Unfortunately, machismo kicks in. With the Munich Air Crash it was stated afterwards that many on board were apprehensive about boarding the plane a third time after two aborted takeoffs in the snow, yet nobody said that they refuse to get on board. Had someone done so there's a good chance others would've followed the lead. Sometimes the bravest thing of all is to be the first to admit that you are too scared to do something and thus refuse to do it.

Similar machismo kicked in with the deaths in plane crashes of music stars Buddy Holly, The Big Bopper and Richie Valens in 1959 and Otis Redding and the Barkays in 1967. In the latter case, they boarded Redding's private aircraft and, according to the only survivor, were apprehensive when the pilot said that the battery was low but hoped there was enough juice in it (in freezing cold weather) to get them from Cleveland, Ohio to Madison, Wisconsin! Indeed, the heating in the plane couldnt be turned on for this reason. Yet, they all boarded without a whimper.

I know it’s very different, but a week before 7/7, I was heading back from meetings in London and had just boarded my train (still a few minutes til it left) at Paddington when the alarms went off and we were all told over the tannoy to evacuate.  Not one of us moved, expecting a false alarm and likelihood of losing your seat.  It was only when the guard came onboard and told us to move that we did.  Within 5 yards of getting off the train a few people said “it will be a false alarm” and now out of the guard’s eye, turned around and got back on the train.  Like sheep we all followed them.  It was a false alarm, but none if us knew that at the time.

[cidered abroad]

I have only flown once in such a small plane, in New Zealand, and was terrified without reason I add.

A tragic loss of life that could easily have been avoided.

Club owners sanctioning a multi million deal for a player, yet allowing said player to travel by the quickest route at probably peanuts compared with value of player and value of player to the club's efforts to stay in Premier League.

The cost to a billionaire owner to hire a decent size plane with a full crew, or a chauffeur driven limousine to Paris and then fly by scheduled air line, is negligible compared to the loss of life and loss to the club.

[cidered abroad]

31 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I know it’s very different, but a week before 7/7, I was heading back from meetings in London and had just boarded my train (still a few minutes til it left) at Paddington when the alarms went off and we were all told over the tannoy to evacuate.  Not one of us moved, expecting a false alarm and likelihood of losing your seat.  It was only when the guard came onboard and told us to move that we did.  Within 5 yards of getting off the train a few people said “it will be a false alarm” and now out of the guard’s eye, turned around and got back on the train.  Like sheep we all followed them.  It was a false alarm, but none if us knew that at the time.

I learnt soon after I joined a packaging company at the age of 23, that if the alarms sound, you get the hell out of the factory without even thinking about it. 

Look silly if it's false alarm? No, just plain common sense.

What if the Emergency Services decided not to show up because a false alarm had occurred previously at the same company? Everybody gets fried alive!

[phantom]

8 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Club owners sanctioning a multi million deal for a player, yet allowing said player to travel by the quickest route at probably peanuts compared with value of player and value of player to the club's efforts to stay in Premier League.

But we are all assuming this isn't the norm? 

[JoeAman08]

1 minute ago, phantom said:

But we are all assuming this isn't the norm? 

Was going to post similar. This could have been done 100s of times before. Hell we have/had French based players that could have travelled like this. Though think his point remains why risk it on what we would perceive as lesser aircraft? It is a good question one that will be raised but after there are more answers

[AppyDAZE]

1 hour ago, YorkshireSection said:

Im stunned and disgusted, with all the money in football, the guy gets put on a plane that looks like its falling apart!

Heard the Cardiff chairman on Jeremy Vine's programme earlier say Cardiff offered him a commercial flight back to the UK but he declined.

Nothing to do with Cardiff City what has happened.

Edited January 23, 2019 by AppyDAZE

[bend it like brian]

18m transfer........45.00 flight wow 

[WolfOfWestStreet]

How many flights like this go over the channel every year and how many end up in the ocean? Certainly the only time I can remember and no press likening it to another recent tragedy.

Also how do you know the plane was at fault? I have significant experience of watching repeats of "air crash investigation" and almost always the pilots have made a mistake. 

Pilot could have had a heart attack, stroke or was unconscious. To early to assume the plane was a pile of shit. 

[spudski]

Not sure there is ever a right time to ask about this...but I've never been able to find an answer.

What happens with the contract signed?

Do Clubs insure against such a thing?

Is there a clause in the contract?

Do relatives receive the contract total?

Guess it's a personal contact that are all different and agreed between agent, Club and player. Everyone being different.

I guess it would also come into FFP rules as well.

Complicated...

Sorry if this seems inappropriate...but when is there a right time?

[BS4 on Tour...]

Edit...incorrect

Edited January 23, 2019 by BS4 on Tour...

[Selred]

1 hour ago, bend it like brian said:

18m transfer........45.00 flight wow 

The flight wouldn’t of been £45

[Agard Days Night]

10 minutes ago, spudski said:

Not sure there is ever a right time to ask about this...but I've never been able to find an answer.

What happens with the contract signed?

Do Clubs insure against such a thing?

Is there a clause in the contract?

Do relatives receive the contract total?

Guess it's a personal contact that are all different and agreed between agent, Club and player. Everyone being different.

I guess it would also come into FFP rules as well.

Complicated...

Sorry if this seems inappropriate...but when is there a right time?

Timely and important questions. 

[Up The City!]

Something just doesn't make sense with all of this.

[Up The City!]

14 minutes ago, spudski said:

Not sure there is ever a right time to ask about this...but I've never been able to find an answer.

What happens with the contract signed?

Do Clubs insure against such a thing?

Is there a clause in the contract?

Do relatives receive the contract total?

Guess it's a personal contact that are all different and agreed between agent, Club and player. Everyone being different.

I guess it would also come into FFP rules as well.

Complicated...

Sorry if this seems inappropriate...but when is there a right time?

I'm glad you asked this, was gonna ask it myself but didn't know if I should. 

Would Cardiff be able to claim the transfer fee back from insurance? 

[spudski]

1 minute ago, Up The City! said:

I'm glad you asked this, was gonna ask it myself but didn't know if I should. 

Would Cardiff be able to claim the transfer fee back from insurance? 

Who knows...I guess each contract is negotiated and individual.

I've asked a couple agents, but yet to hear back.

[BCFC11]

1 hour ago, AppyDAZE said:

Heard the Cardiff chairman on Jeremy Vine's programme earlier say Cardiff offered him a commercial flight back to the UK but he declined.

Nothing to do with Cardiff City what has happened.

So if reports are true (no idea if they are) and he told a team mate from Nantes about how he feared for his safety due to a bumpy flight whilst on the way back from Cardiff at the weekend, then why oh why would you get back on the same plane again, especially after so many attempts to take off? I’ve no clue how true these said reports are but I’d of took one look at that plane and said ‘no ******* chance’ even if it meant being late for first training session, and no doubt a rollocking from Colin.

[Davefevs]

19 minutes ago, spudski said:

Not sure there is ever a right time to ask about this...but I've never been able to find an answer.

What happens with the contract signed?

Do Clubs insure against such a thing?

Is there a clause in the contract?

Do relatives receive the contract total?

Guess it's a personal contact that are all different and agreed between agent, Club and player. Everyone being different.

I guess it would also come into FFP rules as well.

Complicated...

Sorry if this seems inappropriate...but when is there a right time?

Wondering the same.  Not a nice subject.

Deal has been signed I assume, so Nantes due Transfer Fee, etc.

Cardiff you would expect to have a key-person type policy to cover for this, but covering his value as an asset.  How you value that is not something i’ve Got a clue about. 

Sala’s dependent could be due death in service payments, so expect Cardiff to insure against that too.

Could be a compensation claim against the aviation company under aviation law.

Who knows, murky old subject.

 

[RumRed]

27 minutes ago, spudski said:

Who knows...I guess each contract is negotiated and individual.

I've asked a couple agents, but yet to hear back.

Wrong time for this question, but I’ll answer it anyway, most companies take out a ‘relevant life’ policy (effectively death in service) on individuals to provide financial compensation for their families, or in the case of Walmart (used to do before they were sued for it) as ‘dead peasant’ policies where the company takes the cash. ‘Key man’, is what they take out to cover recruitment costs and the implied value of the lost employee.

Grim, but that’s what should happen.

Edited January 23, 2019 by RumRed

[Silvio Dante]

29 minutes ago, spudski said:

Not sure there is ever a right time to ask about this...but I've never been able to find an answer.

What happens with the contract signed?

The contract was signed between his prior team and Cardiff. Irrespective of the tragic event that’s happened, he’s Cardiff’s player so they’re liable for both the full fee and the wages - unless the player was guilty of gross negligence 

 

Do Clubs insure against such a thing?

Ish. All players will be insured against “loss” to the club, but there will be “due care” clauses. The best example I can give here is that footballers aren’t allowed to ride motorcycles in view of the prospect of injury, so any insurer would also not be happy and refuse to pay if they thought due care hadn’t occurred to cause the “loss”

Is there a clause in the contract?

 

Do relatives receive the contract total?

These kind of both go together. The relatives would get “death in service”, which in view of the short contract length would only be akin to the value of the wage over the contract (and in normal circumstances would be covered by insurance), but in the case of negligence which would invalidate the insurance, this wouldn’t happen.

 

Guess it's a personal contact that are all different and agreed between agent, Club and player. Everyone being different.

I guess it would also come into FFP rules as well.

Complicated...

Sorry if this seems inappropriate...but when is there a right time?

Spud - answered to the best of my knowledge above. Inherently, he’s Cardiffs player and would be insured against “loss”, which would cover both the clubs losses and wages to the family over the contract course. However, for that insurance to be valid, no “negligence” on the players (or on the players representatives part) to cause the loss can have occurred.

My gut feel - there is a case that the representing agent has been negligent by proxy (as the aircraft may not have been appropriate for the “asset” and conditions). Therefore Cardiff’s insurers may not pay and they may have to pursue the agent (if the report that it’s his aircraft is correct) to obtain compensation akin to the insured level.

None of this removes this being a tragedy, but as you say, never a good time to ask or answer 

[spudski]

2 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Spud - answered to the best of my knowledge above. Inherently, he’s Cardiffs player and would be insured against “loss”, which would cover both the clubs losses and wages to the family over the contract course. However, for that insurance to be valid, no “negligence” on the players (or on the players representatives part) to cause the loss can have occurred.

My gut feel - there is a case that the representing agent has been negligent by proxy (as the aircraft may not have been appropriate for the “asset” and conditions). Therefore Cardiff’s insurers may not pay and they may have to pursue the agent (if the report that it’s his aircraft is correct) to obtain compensation akin to the insured level.

None of this removes this being a tragedy, but as you say, never a good time to ask or answer 

As you say...never a good time to ask...but others will be doing the same behind the scenes so to speak.

I think a lot more will come out of this....especially the ownership and registration of the plane, as their seem to be conflicting reports.

For what it's worth...no pilot is going to fly a plane if it's not airworthy.

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, RumRed said:

Wrong time for this question, but I’ll answer it anyway, most companies take out a ‘relevant life’ policy (effectively death in service) on individuals to provide financial compensation for their families, or in the case of Walmart (used to do before they were sued for it) as ‘dead peasant’ policies where the company takes the cash. ‘Key man’, is what they take out to cover recruitment costs and the implied value of the lost employee.

Grim, but that’s what should happen.

Yes, I have a relevant life policy set up on my business.

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, spudski said:

As you say...never a good time to ask...but others will be doing the same behind the scenes so to speak.

I think a lot more will come out of this....especially the ownership and registration of the plane, as their seem to be conflicting reports.

For what it's worth...no pilot is going to fly a plane if it's not airworthy.

Agree.

I think the question here, and the one that’s been bugging me since yesterday, is that if you wouldn’t fly a £30m Renoir/Van Gogh etc on that plane in those conditions (as nobody would), why would you fly a £30m (when wages included) asset? (Or, indeed, anyone).

This is why I see this going a (protracted) negligence route - as long as they look after the family while that’s being sorted, that’s the important thing

[BCFC11]

5 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Spud - answered to the best of my knowledge above. Inherently, he’s Cardiffs player and would be insured against “loss”, which would cover both the clubs losses and wages to the family over the contract course. However, for that insurance to be valid, no “negligence” on the players (or on the players representatives part) to cause the loss can have occurred.

My gut feel - there is a case that the representing agent has been negligent by proxy (as the aircraft may not have been appropriate for the “asset” and conditions). Therefore Cardiff’s insurers may not pay and they may have to pursue the agent (if the report that it’s his aircraft is correct) to obtain compensation akin to the insured level.

None of this removes this being a tragedy, but as you say, never a good time to ask or answer 

I’m fairly certain it’ll be down to whoever is in control of the vehicle be it a car/plane or whatever, if there is any blame to attach, not saying it’s the pilots fault here btw, in most businesses nowadays it is down to whoever is operating a machine to carry out the correct checks and inform the relevant persons of any defects etc, so don’t think the blame can be laid at the agents door.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Agree.

I think the question here, and the one that’s been bugging me since yesterday, is that if you wouldn’t fly a £30m Renoir/Van Gogh etc on that plane in those conditions (as nobody would), why would you fly a £30m (when wages included) asset? (Or, indeed, anyone).

This is why I see this going a (protracted) negligence route - as long as they look after the family while that’s being sorted, that’s the important thing

Mrs F who hates footie, said exactly that.

[Silvio Dante]

4 minutes ago, BCFC11 said:

I’m fairly certain it’ll be down to whoever is in control of the vehicle be it a car/plane or whatever, if there is any blame to attach, not saying it’s the pilots fault here btw, in most businesses nowadays it is down to whoever is operating a machine to carry out the correct checks and inform the relevant persons of any defects etc, so don’t think the blame can be laid at the agents door.

Oh indeed - there is no way I would expect the agent to check the plane. It’s more a matter of legality. If he’s the representative who has to ensure the player is delivered and is found to have tried to do that via a sub standard means legally he would be at fault. Not saying morally right, but legally, he’d be gone after.

Either way, I think I’ve said enough about legality and the liability here and the important thing is Sala so I’ll call a halt to that aspect of it here 

Edited January 23, 2019 by Silvio Dante

[bcfcredandwhite]

I keep checking into this thread - and the news apps in the unlikely hope of some good news but to no avail and the longer this goes on the less likely it is that there is a positive outcome. 

Tragic. 

[PHILINFRANCE]

3 hours ago, AppyDAZE said:

Heard the Cardiff chairman on Jeremy Vine's programme earlier say Cardiff offered him a commercial flight back to the UK but he declined.

Nothing to do with Cardiff City what has happened.

Really?

I said in an earlier post that the French press understood the plane was owned by his club, Cardiff City, and whilst they might not have been directly responsible for the flight, it seems it would be disingenuous at best for them to claim they had no knowledge of Sala's travel arrangements: likewise, as has now come to light, Mark McKay, Sala's agent.

Football agent Mark McKay has confirmed he arranged the flight that was carrying striker Emiliano Sala to Cardiff, but has denied reports he or his family owned the plane.

Mr Mckay added that the plane was "not owned in any way or part by either myself or any member of my family".

But!

N264DB is reported as being owned by Willie McKay ( ex Doncaster Rovers Football Agent )
Mark McKay is the son of Willie McKay, Mark is the football agent who brokered the Emiliano Sala transfer deal.

Willie McKay has twin sons Paul and Jack who are Cardiff FC footballers, so I think there is a link between Willie McKay & Cardiff FC that some are trying to cover up?

It looks like that a link with 2 of his son's being fellow Cardiff FC footballers & his other son being the Football Agent for Sala puts a few pointers towards the whole deal was very much arranged within the McKay Stable.

If, as is quite possible, the plane - there is some suggestion that, apparently, it was first put in to service in 1984! - was owned by a McKay owned company or a trust, then McKay's statement might be factually correct, but.... 

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

Inherently, he’s Cardiffs player and would be insured against “loss”, which would cover both the clubs losses and wages to the family over the contract course. However, for that insurance to be valid, no “negligence” on the players (or on the players representatives part) to cause the loss can have occurred. Not necessarily, in fact most unlikely. Indeed, the whole point of this type of insurance policy is to insure against 'death or injury', due to accident or negligence, e.g. a simple (accidental, thus negligent) trip resulting in serious injury. Recklessness, of course, is a different matter, although I would be surprised if any policy exclusions, even relating to flying as a non fee-paying passenger in a non-commercial plane, would apply in this instance.  

My gut feel - there is a case that the representing agent has been negligent by proxy (as the aircraft may not have been appropriate for the “asset” and conditions). Not so much the plane, necessarily, but quite possibly the pilot. Therefore Cardiff’s insurers may not pay and they may have to pursue the agent (if the report that it’s his aircraft is correct) to obtain compensation akin to the insured level. 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Saw this on Twitter in last 10 mins. Seems to be a lot of talk about it- any truth or??

Flares basically seen on an island that is (aside from birds and wildlife) uninhabited, an island near Alderney. I've honestly no idea, but seems to be a lot of talk about it on Twitter.

Police have done a half hour aerial search of the island, but nothing on foot yet apparently...Island called Burhou. World Heritage site.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Mr Popodopolous