Emiliano Sala

[Davefevs]

Not on any firm ground here, but FA / PL is immaterial here.  That only covers whether a player is legitimately allowed to play or not.

What will matter is any documents relating to the sale.  Those might be one in the same thing as the registration.  But if both clubs have signed a “contract” to transfer him, then he’s Cardiff’s player, whether registered or not.

Brum signed Perderson without him being registered....was still Brum’s player!!!

Tragic whatever the truth.  And assuming he was Cardiff’s “asset”, then anyone with any morals associated with the club should resign and hold their heads up high.  Will they though!

[CyderInACan]

Total lack of class and dignity from Cardiff. Irrespective of the ins and outs of it all. 

[Selred]

Can someone check Reid’s contract is watertight? 

Would be great to get him back through a technicality, him then to get us promotion to the Premier League replacing Cardiff.

[Loco Rojo]

1 hour ago, Nibor said:

Absolutely no integrity or class as per usual.

That sums up football.

[Loco Rojo]

38 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

Total lack of class and dignity from Cardiff. Irrespective of the ins and outs of it all. 

I suspect most if not all clubs these days would try to do the same if these a chance they could save millions. Not defending Cardiff at all but to me this is business.

Football is not about integrity or doing what's morally right. It's a business, end of.

[Nibor]

15 minutes ago, Loco Rojo said:

I suspect most if not all clubs these days would try to do the same if these a chance they could save millions. Not defending Cardiff at all but to me this is business.

Football is not about integrity or doing what's morally right. It's a business, end of.

Saying "it's business" is an awful excuse.  It's not OK for business to act immorally for financial reasons and it never has been.  Many businesses make decisions for reasons other than purely monetary ones, and in this case that's what should have been done.  After all it is Cardiff's dodgy clique of agents and their families that arranged this flight, no fault of Nantes.  I hope FIFA throw the book at them.

[BS4 on Tour...]

3 hours ago, wood_red said:

Colin even went up in peoples estimations with the way he was around the whole situation. I don't think he will walk because of this though as will just say "is has nothing to do with me". No doubt if it was some other club doing the same to his club he would be all over the news kicking up a stink about it.

Sky Sports and the Media in general should be camped outside the Stadium demanding interviews and answers.

No need to use this thread to have a pop at Neil Warnock.....you have no idea how he would react if he was in another position, he has acted with a lot of dignity throughout this tragic episode....yet you still call him ‘Colin’....

[Loco Rojo]

51 minutes ago, Nibor said:

Saying "it's business" is an awful excuse.  It's not OK for business to act immorally for financial reasons and it never has been.  Many businesses make decisions for reasons other than purely monetary ones, and in this case that's what should have been done.  After all it is Cardiff's dodgy clique of agents and their families that arranged this flight, no fault of Nantes.  I hope FIFA throw the book at them.

If Cardiff or any club believe they have acted within the law and (more importantly) can prove it then they and in my view, majority of clubs would try to do the same thing to save millions. 

I don't condone it myself but for people to be surprised by this, surprises me. Football is a shady business these days with the amount of money being thrown about and if a business believes it legally hasn't done anything wrong then they will try to save money. The moral right thing to do won't come in to it - especially in modern football.

[Arsene's Wanger]

FIFA should just allow Nantes to kill one of Cardiff's players.

[Nibor]

10 minutes ago, Loco Rojo said:

If Cardiff or any club believe they have acted within the law and (more importantly) can prove it then they and in my view, majority of clubs would try to do the same thing to save millions.  

I don't condone it myself but for people to be surprised by this, surprises me. Football is a shady business these days with the amount of money being thrown about and if a business believes it legally hasn't done anything wrong then they will try to save money. The moral right thing to do won't come in to it - especially in modern football.

My experience is that the moral thing often comes into it in business - in fact more often than not.  Often that's for reasons of reputation rather than for the sake of it but it's still an important decision making factor. 

So whilst it's not a surprise that Cardiff try and find a way to wriggle out of it, it is still wrong and should not be excused or even misconstrued as common or normal.

[Maesknoll Red]

I’ll hold judgement until the full facts come out, it’s a PLC so it’s not like a rich owner paying it out of his pocket, the money has to be justified, the tax implications and the legalities have to be considered, I would doubt it’s something they’d do with having taken some serious legal advice. 

 

[lenred]

14 minutes ago, Nibor said:

My experience is that the moral thing often comes into it in business - in fact more often than not.  Often that's for reasons of reputation rather than for the sake of it but it's still an important decision making factor. 

So whilst it's not a surprise that Cardiff try and find a way to wriggle out of it, it is still wrong and should not be excused or even misconstrued as common or normal.

Reputational risk is a huge consideration in a lot of industries but alas football hasn’t been one of them for a very very long time. Money is all that matters in the vast majority of cases now it seems. This situation stinks but it seems the clubs involved don’t seem to care that their dirty laundry is going to be aired very publicly.  Very very sad. 

[BCFC11]

This whole situation stinks if you ask me, first of all the flight arrangements, club blames the agent, agent blames the club, the agent so say has nothing to hide and to stop having his name being dragged through the mud offers the club a live TV/Radio debate to prove any wrong doing on his behalf - Cardiff refused.

Nantes then contact FIFA as the first payment for Sala is missed by Cardiff as they think until the search for Sala and the Pilot should be concluded first, no issue with that but I did get the feeling that Cardiff had no intention of making any payments at all.

Then today’s news comes out, they seemed happy enough to accept all the condolences from everyone across the globe, tell everyone how distraught the club’s staff were and how the players needed counselling etc, but now he wasn’t their player? If they want to show the world what a vile club then carry on, I’ve known it for years but surely you’d want something like this kept out of the media, not only for the clubs sake but out of respect of the families?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Maesknoll Red said:

I’ll hold judgement until the full facts come out, it’s a PLC so it’s not like a rich owner paying it out of his pocket, the money has to be justified, the tax implications and the legalities have to be considered, I would doubt it’s something they’d do with having taken some serious legal advice. 

 

Cardiff are a limited company not a plc. I think more likely they got advice ‘you’re liable for £15m, to challenge will cost £x and a chance of winning is Y%’ and the board found it favourable. 

[Up The City!]

1 hour ago, 29AR said:

Cardiff are a limited company not a plc. I think more likely they got advice ‘you’re liable for £15m, to challenge will cost £x and a chance of winning is Y%’ and the board found it favourable. 

Or we could turn it the other way and say that's the advice Nantes received.

It all depends on the wording of the transfer agreement which none of us know.

[Major Isewater]

7 hours ago, BCFC11 said:

This whole situation stinks if you ask me, first of all the flight arrangements, club blames the agent, agent blames the club, the agent so say has nothing to hide and to stop having his name being dragged through the mud offers the club a live TV/Radio debate to prove any wrong doing on his behalf - Cardiff refused.

Nantes then contact FIFA as the first payment for Sala is missed by Cardiff as they think until the search for Sala and the Pilot should be concluded first, no issue with that but I did get the feeling that Cardiff had no intention of making any payments at all.

Then today’s news comes out, they seemed happy enough to accept all the condolences from everyone across the globe, tell everyone how distraught the club’s staff were and how the players needed counselling etc, but now he wasn’t their player? If they want to show the world what a vile club then carry on, I’ve known it for years but surely you’d want something like this kept out of the media, not only for the clubs sake but out of respect of the families?

If SL was the owner of Cardiff City I wonder how differently this would play out ?

For all the criticism aimed at SL , some totally justified, he tries to do things in the right way .

 

[East End Old Boy]

39 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

If SL was the owner of Cardiff City I wonder how differently this would play out ?

For all the criticism aimed at SL , some totally justified, he tries to do things in the right way .

 

Would have used his own plane, so the situation wouldn’t have arisen!

[Super]

Do people really think City would do anything different to what Cardiff have done? Or any other football club. 

[CotswoldRed]

So, he never played for Cardiff, they believe he was never their player, they don't want to pay for him. 

Makes you wonder why all the emotion at the time. 

[Eddie Hitler]

14 minutes ago, Super said:

Do people really think City would do anything different to what Cardiff have done? Or any other football club. 

Indeed. It is a contract, it has gone wrong, it goes to court.

I don't see why Nantes gets a free pass here whilst Cardiff is the recipient of the mud slinging.

For all the claims that he was Cardiff's player he wasn't until all the contract conditions precedent (as noted above by @29AR) had been met.

If Emad Moteb, subsequent to his being photographed in the ground wearing a City shirt on "signing", had died in an accident on his way back to Egypt should we have paid out?

For the younger posters he didn't become our player because he played in a game in Egypt that he had been told not to play so the contract was ripped up.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

Indeed. It is a contract, it has gone wrong, it goes to court.

I don't see why Nantes gets a free pass here whilst Cardiff is the recipient of the mud slinging.

For all the claims that he was Cardiff's player he wasn't until all the contract conditions precedent (as noted above by @29AR) had been met.

If Emad Moteb, subsequent to his being photographed in the ground wearing a City shirt on "signing", had died in an accident on his way back to Egypt should we have paid out?

For the younger posters he didn't become our player because he played in a game in Egypt that he had been told not to play so the contract was ripped up.

If this is governed by UK law, and the issues are as reported from the Cardiff source, from afar I think I'd rather stick my money on Nantes' claim being successful. 

[downendcity]

25 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

Indeed. It is a contract, it has gone wrong, it goes to court.

I don't see why Nantes gets a free pass here whilst Cardiff is the recipient of the mud slinging.

For all the claims that he was Cardiff's player he wasn't until all the contract conditions precedent (as noted above by @29AR) had been met.

If Emad Moteb, subsequent to his being photographed in the ground wearing a City shirt on "signing", had died in an accident on his way back to Egypt should we have paid out?

For the younger posters he didn't become our player because he played in a game in Egypt that he had been told not to play so the contract was ripped up.

The contract issue I've read is that there was a clause included stating that the player had to be registered by a certain date. The reason being that if the deal fell through by that date then it gave  them enough time in the transfer window to tie another player transfer together.

Cardiff's argument seems to be that as the registrations in question were not completed by the date specified,  the contract is void. However, if that were the case why were Cardiff flying the player back to Wales for training with the team? 

@29AR posted 

Essentially it seems - if under UK law -  Cardiff are saying there were what’s called conditions precedent; contract terms which must be fulfilled before a contract can be concluded. They say they weren’t. However, certainly under U.K. law there is case law confirming a contract can be concluded by conduct, even if some terms aren’t complied with. This is a summary of a recent decision - https://www.walkermorris.co.uk/publications/disputes-matter-may-2015/contract-by-conduct-a-cautionary-tale/

I'm no legal expert, but I would have said that Sala flying to Cardiff to start training with his "new" club would be conduct indicative of the contract being concluded ( bar payment of the fee, of course!!!) so it will be interesting to see how this one pans out. 

As I mentioned in previous post, I reckon that clubs involved in transfers with Cardiff will have their solicitors going over the contracts with a fine tooth comb in future.

Edited March 26, 2019 by downendcity

[CityCiderEd]

Forgetting all the legal toing and froing  between the clubs what the hell must Sala's family be thinking of it.......

[Eddie Hitler]

12 minutes ago, 29AR said:

If this is governed by UK law, and the issues are as reported from the Cardiff source, from afar I think I'd rather stick my money on Nantes' claim being successful. 

It's often a percentage rather than a straight win / lose.

I haven't studied it but from the information provided in this thread my guess would be that the contract is deemed to have been 80% complete at the time of his death with no reason to think it wouldn't proceed.

So that would give Nantes £12m rather than £15m and make it worth Cardiff challenging.

I don't see a moral dimension here with Nantes vs Cardiff as long as Sala's family don't lose out by it.

If I was buying a house, price agreed, deposit paid, both parties happy, and it fell down the night before I was due to exchange then I wouldn't exchange.

Contracts are not binding until they actually come into effect.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Eddie Hitler

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

It's often a percentage rather than a straight win / lose.

I haven't studied it but from the information provided in this thread my guess would be that the contract is deemed to have been 80% complete at the time of his death with no reason to think it wouldn't proceed.

So that would give Nantes £12m rather than £15m and make it worth Cardiff challenging.

I don't see a moral dimension here with Nantes vs Cardiff as long as Sala's family don't lose out by it.

If I was buying a house, price agreed, deposit paid, both parties happy, and it fell down the night before I was due to exchange then I wouldn't exchange.

Contracts are not binding until they actually come into effect.

But contracts can be concluded by conduct, and such conduct can amount to acceptance that certain terms were not complied with without requiring alterations to the written agreement. There are precedents for that. 

[Eddie Hitler]

14 minutes ago, 29AR said:

But contracts can be concluded by conduct, and such conduct can amount to acceptance that certain terms were not complied with without requiring alterations to the written agreement. There are precedents for that. 

There are.

However, and without wishing to divert the thread, if that was the primary legal basis then Nick Higgs' "watertight" contract to sell the Memorial Ground to Sainsbury's would have gone through.

It didn't because contracts are usually determined in law by their written terms.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

There are.

However, and without wishing to divert the thread, if that was the primary legal basis then Nick Higgs' "watertight" contract to sell the Memorial Ground to Sainsbury's would have gone through.

It didn't because contracts are usually determined in law by their written terms.

Not quite I don't think, because that was a dispute about whether Sainsbury's had acted in accordance with the contract term requiring them to appeal adverse planning decisions.

I would say to be comparable the situation may need to have been Sainsbury's put a spade in the ground but then tried to renege on the agreement because of the adverse planning; did Sainsbury's waive their right to rely on that condition to void the contract etc.

Anyway yes all conjecture, this will likely run for a long time and for now is just an interpretation of the very loose details which have been reported.  

 

[downendcity]

1 hour ago, CityCiderEd said:

Forgetting all the legal toing and froing  between the clubs what the hell must Sala's family be thinking of it.......

Not that money will be uppermost on their minds, but I presume that Sala would have received a percentage of his transfer fee, so if  Cardiff's stance is upheld his estate would get nothing!

[Super]

Seems that the pilot was not qualified to fly at night. Bizarre.

[Son of Fred]

8 minutes ago, Super said:

Seems that the pilot was not qualified to fly at night. Bizarre.

Oh dear...bizarre indeed that if he hadn't taken/passed the appropriate night rating course that he would accept this job..can only assume the pilot that passed this flight over to him believe'd he was in possession of the relevant qualification!....

Edited March 30, 2019 by Robert the bruce

[exAtyeoMax]

11 minutes ago, Robert the bruce said:

Oh dear...bizarre indeed that if he hadn't taken/passed the appropriate night rating course that he would accept this job..can only assume the pilot that passed this flight over to him believe'd he was in possession of the relevant qualification!....

He was colourblind so wouldn’t be able to. According to BBC because it flew at night instead of the morning it was supposed to,  the flight was illegal and so not insured. 

I do wonder who that pilot was and why he passed it over and why mr Ibbotson agreed to fly the plane when he knew he shouldn’t 

[phantom]

2 hours ago, exAtyeoMax said:

....... and why mr Ibbotson agreed to fly the plane when he knew he shouldn’t 

£££££££££

[Red DNA]

2 hours ago, exAtyeoMax said:

He was colourblind so wouldn’t be able to. According to BBC because it flew at night instead of the morning it was supposed to,  the flight was illegal and so not insured. 

I do wonder who that pilot was and why he passed it over and why mr Ibbotson agreed to fly the plane when he knew he shouldn’t 

From what I’ve read it was delayed as the player wanted more time with his old teammates and I’ve seen no mention of another pilot, same pilot- same aircraft just delayed departure?

[ScottishRed]

I wouldn’t expect this to be resolved anytime soon, which will not help the friends and families of the the two men that sadly lost their lives that evening.

Edited March 30, 2019 by ScottishRed
Spelling

[exAtyeoMax]

1 hour ago, Red DNA said:

From what I’ve read it was delayed as the player wanted more time with his old teammates and I’ve seen no mention of another pilot, same pilot- same aircraft just delayed departure?

At the time it was mentioned that the pilot hired had passed the job to mr Ibbotson. No mention of who it was and why they passed it to him, surely they would have checked it was all aboveboard? 

[phantom]

Just read two people have been arrested after sharing photos of Salahs body in a mortuary on social media.... 

There really is some scum in this world! 

 

[alexukhc]

8 hours ago, phantom said:

Just read two people have been arrested after sharing photos of Salahs body in a mortuary on social media.... 

There really is some scum in this world! 

 

From Calne too and Corsham too, not so far away 

[phantom]

A 64 year old male has just been arrested under the charge of manslaughter in relation to the death of Sala

[alexukhc]

10 minutes ago, phantom said:

A 64 year old male has just been arrested under the charge of manslaughter in relation to the death of Sala

How old is that agent McKay?

[Monkeh]

6 minutes ago, alexukhc said:

How old is that agent McKay?

60

[RedM]

6 minutes ago, alexukhc said:

How old is that agent McKay?

He was my first thought too.

[Rudolf Hucker]

How old is Bailey Wright?

[Monkeh]

9 minutes ago, RedM said:

He was my first thought too.

It will be something to do with the planes company I suspect

[phantom]

15 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

It will be something to do with the planes company I suspect

Sorry omitted that he was from North Yorkshire 

[alexukhc]

4 minutes ago, phantom said:

Sorry omitted that he was from North Yorkshire 

Ditto, not speculating anything though

[Fordy62]

2 hours ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

How old is Bailey Wright?

 

[exAtyeoMax]

I really hope there isn't any abuse re Sala when Cardiff visit AG. My god, I'd be so angry.

[BS4 on Tour...]

5 hours ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

How old is Bailey Wright?

Not really a subject about which to joke? Each to their own I suppose ... at least you got a few ‘laugh’ reactions though - makes it all worthwhile ...

Edited June 19, 2019 by BS4 on Tour...

[Monkeh]

9 hours ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I really hope there isn't any abuse re Sala when Cardiff visit AG. My god, I'd be so angry.

So would I and we should rightly be sanctioned if there were

[phantom]

A PILOT has been arrested on suspicion of manslaughter over the plane crash death of footballer Emiliano Sala.

David Henderson, 64, a private pilot, was registered as taking charge of the doomed flight from France to Cardiff, but later drafted in David Ibbotson, 59.

Sala, 28, had just signed for Cardiff City for £15million from Nantes and was flying to meet his teammates.

The Piper Malibu PA-46 flown by Mr Ibbotson went down off Guernsey on January 21.

It later emerged that Mr Ibbotson was not qualified to fly at night and should not have been carrying commercial passengers.

Sala’s remains were recovered on February 6, but Mr Ibbotson, of Crowle, Lincs, is still missing.

Det Insp Simon Huxter, of Dorset Police, said officers “have to consider whether there is evidence of suspected criminality”.

He added: “As a result of our inquiries, we have arrested a 64-year-old man from North Yorkshire on suspicion of manslaughter by an unlawful act.”

The force added the families of the two men who died had been informed.

The man was later released from custody under investigation.

A preliminary accident report said Mr Ibbotson was not licensed to fly fee-paying passengers.

The flight was arranged by ex-football agent Willie McKay — whose son Mark brokered Sala’s transfer — via Mr Henderson.

Mr McKay said he asked Mr Henderson, an experienced commercial pilot, to fly the footballer to Cardiff.

However, it is understood he was unable to do so, and the plane was flown by Mr Ibbotson.

Flight records showed Mr Ibbotson had descended rapidly while making a series of sharp turns before crashing.

[cidercity1987]

13 minutes ago, phantom said:

A PILOT has been arrested on suspicion of manslaughter over the plane crash death of footballer Emiliano Sala.

David Henderson, 64, a private pilot, was registered as taking charge of the doomed flight from France to Cardiff, but later drafted in David Ibbotson, 59.

Sala, 28, had just signed for Cardiff City for £15million from Nantes and was flying to meet his teammates.

The Piper Malibu PA-46 flown by Mr Ibbotson went down off Guernsey on January 21.

It later emerged that Mr Ibbotson was not qualified to fly at night and should not have been carrying commercial passengers.

Sala’s remains were recovered on February 6, but Mr Ibbotson, of Crowle, Lincs, is still missing.

Det Insp Simon Huxter, of Dorset Police, said officers “have to consider whether there is evidence of suspected criminality”.

He added: “As a result of our inquiries, we have arrested a 64-year-old man from North Yorkshire on suspicion of manslaughter by an unlawful act.”

The force added the families of the two men who died had been informed.

The man was later released from custody under investigation.

A preliminary accident report said Mr Ibbotson was not licensed to fly fee-paying passengers.

The flight was arranged by ex-football agent Willie McKay — whose son Mark brokered Sala’s transfer — via Mr Henderson.

Mr McKay said he asked Mr Henderson, an experienced commercial pilot, to fly the footballer to Cardiff.

However, it is understood he was unable to do so, and the plane was flown by Mr Ibbotson.

Flight records showed Mr Ibbotson had descended rapidly while making a series of sharp turns before crashing.

I thought it might be Henderson but all other reports had him 60 not 64. Surprisingly though as the most guilty party is dead if its going down the route of unlicensed pilots.

[exAtyeoMax]

1 hour ago, phantom said:

A PILOT has been arrested on suspicion of manslaughter over the plane crash death of footballer Emiliano Sala.

David Henderson, 64, a private pilot, was registered as taking charge of the doomed flight from France to Cardiff, but later drafted in David Ibbotson, 59.

Sala, 28, had just signed for Cardiff City for £15million from Nantes and was flying to meet his teammates.

The Piper Malibu PA-46 flown by Mr Ibbotson went down off Guernsey on January 21.

It later emerged that Mr Ibbotson was not qualified to fly at night and should not have been carrying commercial passengers.

Sala’s remains were recovered on February 6, but Mr Ibbotson, of Crowle, Lincs, is still missing.

Det Insp Simon Huxter, of Dorset Police, said officers “have to consider whether there is evidence of suspected criminality”.

He added: “As a result of our inquiries, we have arrested a 64-year-old man from North Yorkshire on suspicion of manslaughter by an unlawful act.”

The force added the families of the two men who died had been informed.

The man was later released from custody under investigation.

A preliminary accident report said Mr Ibbotson was not licensed to fly fee-paying passengers.

The flight was arranged by ex-football agent Willie McKay — whose son Mark brokered Sala’s transfer — via Mr Henderson.

Mr McKay said he asked Mr Henderson, an experienced commercial pilot, to fly the footballer to Cardiff.

However, it is understood he was unable to do so, and the plane was flown by Mr Ibbotson.

Flight records showed Mr Ibbotson had descended rapidly while making a series of sharp turns before crashing.

kin hell!  That poor boy

[chowie]

1 hour ago, cidercity1987 said:

I thought it might be Henderson but all other reports had him 60 not 64. Surprisingly though as the most guilty party is dead if its going down the route of unlicensed pilots.

Same, my first thought was Henderson yesterday but ruled it out as it looked like he was 60/61.

[RedM]

1 hour ago, cidercity1987 said:

I thought it might be Henderson but all other reports had him 60 not 64. Surprisingly though as the most guilty party is dead if its going down the route of unlicensed pilots.

I guess it’s going down the route of whether this pilot knowingly passed his ‘job’, to which he had a duty of care towards both the passengers and the person that hired him, to a person who wasn’t qualified to do so. 

Someone is to blame somewhere, even in an accident, but this could and should have be avoided. Wonder what was so important that he couldn’t fulfill the job, doubt it was so important now. I guess too they have to make sure this doesn’t happen again in the future, tighten up any loopholes.

[phantom]

23 minutes ago, RedM said:

I guess it’s going down the route of whether this pilot knowingly passed his ‘job’, to which he had a duty of care towards both the passengers and the person that hired him, to a person who wasn’t qualified to do so. 

Someone is to blame somewhere, even in an accident, but this could and should have be avoided. Wonder what was so important that he couldn’t fulfill the job, doubt it was so important now. I guess too they have to make sure this doesn’t happen again in the future, tighten up any loopholes.

The thing I wondered is if this is the "norm" that pilots hand off work other people?

Guess if nothing had gone fatefully wrong this may have never come to light?

[CliftonCliff]

22 minutes ago, phantom said:

The thing I wondered is if this is the "norm" that pilots hand off work other people?

Guess if nothing had gone fatefully wrong this may have never come to light?

Since the tragedy, I have seen comments from people with inside knowledge of the aviation world claiming that this sort of thing is not that uncommon, which is disturbing if true, though perhaps not entirely surprising. It’s not that hard to legislate against but, like many things, it may be a whole lot harder to monitor and enforce.

One wonders where the father and son football agents will stand in all this when the dust settles. Lots of newspaper reports at the time suggested a clear line of responsibility leading to them. I’m no lawyer, but even if, in moral terms, their fingerprints appear to be all over it, it seems doubtful that any criminality would stretch as far as them.

I’m pretty sure we have some legal people on the forum. I wonder what their take would be on this?

[RedM]

48 minutes ago, phantom said:

The thing I wondered is if this is the "norm" that pilots hand off work other people?

Guess if nothing had gone fatefully wrong this may have never come to light?

I wondered this myself. 

@CliftonCliff, again I am wondering this too regarding the Agents. But if they can state they hired this pilot ( the one that has been arrested) in good faith on the belief and assurance he was qualified to transport their client and they had no idea it was going to be passed to a third party, then they are clear aren’t they? 

The law is really weird though at times, the onus might fall to the Agents to seek assurances such a thing wouldn’t happen, not merely assume as much.

[AshtonPark]

 

2 minutes ago, RedM said:

I wondered this myself. 

@CliftonCliff, again I am wondering this too regarding the Agents. But if they can state they hired this pilot ( the one that has been arrested) in good faith on the belief and assurance he was qualified to transport their client and they had no idea it was going to be passed to a third party, then they are clear aren’t they? 

The law is really weird though at times, the onus might fall to the Agents to seek assurances such a thing wouldn’t happen, not merely assume as much.

What you state there, what if it was a taxi driver?

You call club cars, who send Darren a taxi driver who has shown them documentation for a Vauxhall Zafira with all the correct paperwork etc. When he turns up to pick you up, its not Darren but his mate who Darren has palmed the job off to who hasnt got a taxi licence or even insurance who's fault is that?

[RedM]

57 minutes ago, AshtonPark said:

 

What you state there, what if it was a taxi driver?

You call club cars, who send Darren a taxi driver who has shown them documentation for a Vauxhall Zafira with all the correct paperwork etc. When he turns up to pick you up, its not Darren but his mate who Darren has palmed the job off to who hasnt got a taxi licence or even insurance who's fault is that?

I guess your contract is with Club Cars but it’s their responsibility not to let Darren palm off jobs he doesnt want to his mate. I understand your point. I guess it depends if you can prove they were aware he does this, but innocence isn’t always enough?

[Rudolf Hucker]

16 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Not really a subject about which to joke? Each to their own I suppose ... at least you got a few ‘laugh’ reactions though - makes it all worthwhile ...

Overreaction? From you? Well what a surprise and so completely out of character. 

Be sure not to fall off that very high horse you’ve sat yourself upon. Wouldn’t want you to find something else to complain about. 

[BS4 on Tour...]

3 hours ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

Overreaction? From you? Well what a surprise and so completely out of character. 

Be sure not to fall off that very high horse you’ve sat yourself upon. Wouldn’t want you to find something else to complain about. 

No worries - you’re probably right. I just didn’t think joking about an incident, in which two people lost their lives, was very clever. I don’t think it was an overreaction. Anyway, happy to disagree.... apologies for obviously touching a nerve ... (...and you know nothing about my character)

Edited June 20, 2019 by BS4 on Tour...

[BTRFTG]

On 26/03/2019 at 09:58, 29AR said:

Not quite I don't think, because that was a dispute about whether Sainsbury's had acted in accordance with the contract term requiring them to appeal adverse planning decisions.

If memory serves there was one conditional consent The Gas were beholden to deliver by a specific date but failed so to do. When the condition was later met Sainsburys (not The Gas) had the right to appeal the planning refusal but we're not obligated so to do. The Gas attempted to appeal but we're thwarted by Sainsburys who refused to cooperate. Although in the ruling it was implied Sainsburys' change in attitude ran contrary to the spirit of the contract it mattered not as The Gas had timed out and their prevarication was noted.....

Edited June 20, 2019 by BTRFTG

[BTRFTG]

10 hours ago, phantom said:

Sala, 28, had just signed for Cardiff City for £15million

As much as I dislike Baadiff from the snippets I've read it could be that, owing to 'underhand' dealings both sides, that Sala's  'transfer' wasn't completed in accordance with UEFA regulation. I think Baadiff are playing the old trick of admitting to their minor indiscretion on the basis the more serious failing Nantes side means the 'transfer' was never formally registered (or ever could be - which of course would never had come to light had Sala lived.) Neither club come out of this with credit.

[BS4 on Tour...]

4 hours ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

Overreaction? From you? Well what a surprise and so completely out of character. 

Be sure not to fall off that very high horse you’ve sat yourself upon. Wouldn’t want you to find something else to complain about. 

.....and I see from the ‘reactions’ you got that @BS3City and @EmissionImpossible support you joking about the deaths of two people in a dreadful incident - it says a lot ... 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

Overreaction? From you? Well what a surprise and so completely out of character. 

Be sure not to fall off that very high horse you’ve sat yourself upon. Wouldn’t want you to find something else to complain about. 

Do as I - he achieved what even robbored didn’t - IGNORE 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

If memory serves there was one conditional consent The Gas were beholden to deliver by a specific date but failed so to do. When the condition was later met Sainsburys (not The Gas) had the right to appeal the planning refusal but we're not obligated so to do. The Gas attempted to appeal but we're thwarted by Sainsburys who refused to cooperate. Although in the ruling it was implied Sainsburys' change in attitude ran contrary to the spirit of the contract it mattered not as The Gas had timed out and their prevarication was noted.....

Quite. 

So some comments above are about ‘palming off’ and I think they are slightly off point. There could have been (at least) two types of contract in place here; (1) with the pilot to fly the plane - think like asking ‘Dave’ to build your brick wall, or (2) arrange the transportation of - think a travel agent. 

In (1), you’d expect in a contract like that to have a ‘palming off’ clause, an if I can’t I will provide another to provide the service. You’d want that as buyer to ensure the service is performed. But it would usually have a condition ‘of equal skill and competence’ 

in (2), he never committed to fly but acted like a high street agent to arrange it. 

My own opinion, there’s little controversy in someone else flying, and that doesn’t necessarily touch the McKays, it’s quite common in a contract for service - albeit aviation may be different; private jets are beyond me, but it’s almost certainly in any independent contractors agreement... it’s who they substituted with and the checks carried out which add controversy; and why a certain individual may be the culpable party. If the Agents contracted for a flight with substitution of someone of equal skill, why should they then vet the sub, that’s for the contractor. 

[Rudolf Hucker]

On 20/06/2019 at 22:32, BS4 on Tour... said:

.....and I see from the ‘reactions’ you got that @BS3City and @EmissionImpossible support you joking about the deaths of two people in a dreadful incident - it says a lot ... 

For someone who all too frequently takes OTIB posters to task over perceived factual inaccuracies or their lack of precision in spelling, and grammar, you seem well prepared when it suits you, to make an entirely false statement and think that you can get away with it without challenge. Think again.

At no time have I made a joke "about the deaths of two people in a dreadful incident" nor would I. Read again posts #616 to #620 above and tell me where I have referred to the victims or the incident in any way. Making a joke in a thread about the deaths of two people is entirely different to making a joke about their deaths.

If you want to impugn my character then do so with veracity.

[BS4 on Tour...]

10 hours ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

Read again posts #616 to #620 above and tell me where I have referred to the victims or the incident in any way....

You responded to a post about a 64 year old being arrested for manslaughter, in regard to the incident in which two people perished, with the comment “How old is Bailey Wright?”

You obviously weren’t being serious about BW being the person who was arrested you were just jokingly implying that he gets blamed for things that aren’t his fault .... so you were joking about the incident in which two people lost their lives... yet you say above that you didn’t refer to the incident ‘in any way.’

I sincerely apologise if I’ve offended you, I just didn’t think it was appropriate to joke about anything to do with such a tragic accident ...

 

 

[Rudolf Hucker]

10 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

You responded to a post about a 64 year old being arrested for manslaughter, in regard to the incident in which two people perished, with the comment “How old is Bailey Wright?”

You obviously weren’t being serious about BW being the person who was arrested you were just jokingly implying that he gets blamed for things that aren’t his fault .... so you were joking about the incident in which two people lost their lives... yet you say above that you didn’t refer to the incident ‘in any way.’

I sincerely apologise if I’ve offended you, I just didn’t think it was appropriate to joke about anything to do with such a tragic accident ...

 

 

No, I wasn't. I was joking in a thread which is about the incident in which two people lost their lives NOT about the incident itself in which two people lost their lives. There is a fundamental and very clear difference between the two but anyway thank you for your apology which I'm happy to accept. The matter is now closed.

[BS4 on Tour...]

20 hours ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

No, I wasn't. I was joking in a thread which is about the incident in which two people lost their lives NOT about the incident itself in which two people lost their lives. There is a fundamental and very clear difference between the two but anyway thank you for your apology which I'm happy to accept. The matter is now closed.

Cheers for accepting my apology - also happy to close the matter regarding the tragic accident. 

On another point, in your previous reply to me you referred to me correcting people’s spelling & grammar on here - it ain’t just me though, I’ve seen lots and lots on here doing exactly the same recently, including yourself ... some things aren’t too difficult to get right, especially in this modern age ... most of the ‘corrections’ are lighthearted though, including mine ...