Emiliano Sala

[havanatopia]

On 30/03/2019 at 18:39, ScottishRed said:

I wouldn’t expect this to be resolved anytime soon, which will not help the friends and families of the the two men that sadly lost their lives that evening.

Agreed. One of the most open, if not the most, open countries in the world reporting every agonising detail that comes to light  as far as friends and family are concerned; compare that to where the lad comes from; Argentina has a reputation for hiding the truth or suppressing it for as long as possible. The latter likely to be even more painful. In short, the news, of any kind, has to be aired however much it hurts.

[downendcity]

8 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Cheers for accepting my apology - also happy to close the matter regarding the tragic accident. 

On another point, in your previous reply to me you referred to me correcting people’s spelling & grammar on here - it ain’t just me though, I’ve seen lots and lots on here doing exactly the same recently, including yourself ... some things aren’t too difficult to get right, especially in this modern age ... most of the ‘corrections’ are lighthearted though, including mine ...

The " grammar police" must be allowed to continue, if only for those occasions when the corrector is taken to task for errors in his/her own posting - the biter bit! 

[CotswoldRed]

On 20/06/2019 at 07:10, Monkeh said:

So would I and we should rightly be sanctioned if there were

We? So if there are already a few dozen fans planning/determined to sing songs then we're already effectively sanctioned. 

If the club take all reasonable steps to prevent disorder then I'm not convinced it's ever right to punish the majority for the acts of a few. 

[exAtyeoMax]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-49345186

Possible Carbon monoxide poisoning as a cause of the crash?

[Xiled]

32 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-49345186

Possible Carbon monoxide poisoning as a cause of the crash?

That sounds highly significant. From memory, the weather was really awful that night so the pilot and passenger probably kept ventilation to a minimum.

Any death is a tragedy but if the evidence identifies a problem that was avoidable, it must be even more heartbreaking for both families.

[WesM]

It also means that they were both unconscious long before they crashed?

A small crumb of comfort for their families in what is a terrible tragedy.

[East Londoner]

Most of the theories so far have been of pilot error so in a strange way this would come as a small relief to the pilots family 

[Erithacus]

Carbon Monoxide poisoning is a silent and seductive killer. It would be so easy for two occupants to slip into unconsciousness and be unable to control the aircraft thereafter.

I hear Salo's family are demanding that the aircraft wreckage be brought up for proper examination. The AAIB would be onto that I assume unless there is a question over it being in French territorial waters.

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 hour ago, Xiled said:

That sounds highly significant. From memory, the weather was really awful that night so the pilot and passenger probably kept ventilation to a minimum.

Any death is a tragedy but if the evidence identifies a problem that was avoidable, it must be even more heartbreaking for both families.

Suggests a significant fault with the aircraft tbh 

[Red from afar]

Many light aircraft get their hot air from running the ambient air around an exhaust shroud to heat it up before entering the cabin. The aircraft concerned had a similar system. Obviously, if there's a leak from the exhaust into the shroud, it mixes with the air and pumps straight into the cabin. Many pilots of light aircraft won't use the heating systems for this reason.

[Maesknoll Red]

54 minutes ago, Erithacus said:

Carbon Monoxide poisoning is a silent and seductive killer. It would be so easy for two occupants to slip into unconsciousness and be unable to control the aircraft thereafter.

I hear Salo's family are demanding that the aircraft wreckage be brought up for proper examination. The AAIB would be onto that I assume unless there is a question over it being in French territorial waters.

The AAIB ruled out raising the wreckage of the plane on grounds of cost and it wouldn’t add much value to their investigation - maybe that thinking will have to be revisited.

[Maesknoll Red]

51 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Suggests a significant fault with the aircraft tbh 

Probably more accurate would be a minor fault, but with significant and fatal consequences.

[BobBobSuperBob]

4 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said:

Probably more accurate would be a minor fault, but with significant and fatal consequences.

Yes -

I’m no mechanic / engineer - but simply , carbon monoxide from the engines should never be getting into the plane interior 

 exhaust or filter failure ?

[Maesknoll Red]

Just now, BobBobSuperBob said:

Yes -

I’m no mechanic / engineer - but simply , carbon monoxide from the engines should never be getting into the plane interior 

 exhaust or filter failure ?

It happens, probably a gasket or seal leaking in the exhaust, then another seal, in the heater system or fire bulkhead leaking.

[Harry]

Not wishing to bring this off topic re the CO story, nor wishing to be disrespectful to anyone, but what was the outcome of the financials surrounding this deal? 

Last I recall was that Cardiff were saying they wouldn’t pay. Is that still the case or have they paid up now? 

[Frenchay Red]

9 hours ago, Harry said:

Not wishing to bring this off topic re the CO story, nor wishing to be disrespectful to anyone, but what was the outcome of the financials surrounding this deal? 

Last I recall was that Cardiff were saying they wouldn’t pay. Is that still the case or have they paid up now? 

The last I read was that Cardiff were still in dispute with Nantes and were still querying the legality of the deal. I may be wrong but I haven't seen any reports of payments being made. I'm not sure if the bereaved family have received anything either. Tragic state of affairs from all perspectives. 

[reddogkev]

I saw this on the BBC news just before going to bed last night and shed a tear at hearing his words on the plane, when he left a message to his dad saying he was scared.

Will forever be such a terribly sad situation.

[CliftonCliff]

It’s been stated in media coverage on numerous occasions that Ibbotson was not qualified to fly at night or to carry paying passengers. We now know in addition that the aircraft had a potentially lethal fault. So, neither plane nor pilot were fit for purpose.

Yes, it is unbearably sad and made arguably more so now by this confirmation of what has long been suspected, that the flight should never have left the ground. As well as sadness there should also be anger at the illegality and level of irresponsibility involved. Whether anyone is held to account remains to be seen. I imagine tracing the lines of legal responsibility could be a very complex process.

[Lanterne Rouge]

21 hours ago, Maesknoll Red said:

Probably more accurate would be a minor fault, but with significant and fatal consequences.

I always used to get headaches and feel drowsy when I was driving a car I used to have and it turned out it was a slight crack in the exhaust manifold that was allowing exhaust gases/CO into the heating/ventilation system so I guess this could be the same sort of fault?

[Maesknoll Red]

3 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said:

I always used to get headaches and feel drowsy when I was driving a car I used to have and it turned out it was a slight crack in the exhaust manifold that was allowing exhaust gases/CO into the heating/ventilation system so I guess this could be the same sort of fault?

Sound likely, it’s not unheard of.

[wendyredredrobin]

10 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said:

I always used to get headaches and feel drowsy when I was driving a car I used to have and it turned out it was a slight crack in the exhaust manifold that was allowing exhaust gases/CO into the heating/ventilation system so I guess this could be the same sort of fault?

Nothing to do with the 5 pints of Thatchers you had beforehand then RRH

[Silvio Dante]

See the FIFA ruling is now in and Cardiff have been ordered to pay £5.3m to Nantes for Sala. Seems a bit of a fudge - if he was their player, then surely full fee payable. If not, surely nothing. Be interested to see the logic in 1/3 of agreed fee being the decision 

Edited September 30, 2019 by Silvio Dante

[wayne allisons tongues]

21 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

See the FIFA ruling is now in and Cardiff have been ordered to pay £5.3m to Nantes for Sala. Seems a bit of a fudge - if he was their player, then surely full fee payable. If not, surely nothing. Be interested to see the logic in 1/3 of agreed fee being the decision 

I think that’s the first instalment of 3.

Next one due Jan 2020 

[LondonBristolian]

2 minutes ago, wayne allisons tongues said:

I think that’s the first instalment of 3.

Next one due Jan 2020 

Yeah - it said in the report I read that Cardiff were a bit unclear if it was a one-off payment or a first installment but I would imagine they would ultimately need to pay everything except any parts of the fee that were contingent on performance or appearances. 

[Bristol Rob]

Just to clear up the installment bit, this from David Conn.

 

[Silvio Dante]

31 minutes ago, wayne allisons tongues said:

I think that’s the first instalment of 3.

Next one due Jan 2020 

Ah, thanks - BBC report originally just said £5.3m and didn’t indicate it was an instalment. Makes more sense now and indicates FIFA viewed Sala as Cardiff’s player

[downendcity]

23 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Ah, thanks - BBC report originally just said £5.3m and didn’t indicate it was an instalment. Makes more sense now and indicates FIFA viewed Sala as Cardiff’s player

....as did Cardiff - until the plane crash!

[CotswoldRed]

Be interesting to see how Cardiff's insurers view it. They'll want to claim this back. 

[WhistleHappy]

Just a thought, besides the contractual obligations between the two employers, Cardiff & Nantes, as per todays ruling I wonder are there any outstanding fees payable by either club to Emiliano's estate (ie family) regarding 'signing on' fees etc..? 

I sincerely hope all parties have behaved and done the right thing when it comes to Emiliano's rights (be they legal or moral) and his estate/family has been properly looked after.

Its time these legalities are concluded - then, hopefully, Emiliano will finally be able to Rest In Peace.   

Edited September 30, 2019 by WhistleHappy

[phantom]

Taken from BBC Sport, this is going to rumble on and on. . . .

 

Cardiff City have decided to appeal against Fifa's ruling that they must pay the first instalment of 6m euros (£5.3m) to Nantes for £15m striker Emiliano Sala.

The Bluebirds will challenge the ruling at the Court of Arbitration for Sport in Lausanne, Switzerland.

The Argentine, who was 28, died in a plane crash in January while travelling from France to join his new club.

Cardiff and Nantes have since been in dispute over fee payments.

Cardiff have argued they were not liable for any of the full £15m fee because Sala was not officially their player when he died.

The club refused to make interim payments, claiming the deal was not legally binding.

BBC Sport has also learned that the second instalment of the £15m fee agreed for Sala is due to be paid in January 2020.

Nantes argued that having signed with Cardiff, Sala's contract with Nantes was over and that he had become a Cardiff player.

 

Cardiff recruited Sala while they were in the Premier League and have since been relegated to the Championship.

The Bluebirds believe the transfer was null and void, saying the Premier League had rejected certain clauses requested by Nantes in the original contract and that Sala never had a chance to review or sign the final version, meaning their record signing was not registered as a Premier League player.

The plane carrying Sala and pilot David Ibbotson, 59, crashed in the English Channel on 21 January, two days after the player's transfer was announced.

The footballer's body was recovered from the wreckage, but Ibbotson, from Crowle, North Lincolnshire, has still not been found.

Sala was exposed to high levels of carbon monoxide prior to the crash, a report later revealed.

[wayne allisons tongues]

If he wasn’t there player why all the upset at Cardiff when he died. He was on there website wearing/holding a shirt, 

They are doing all they can to not pay out, think it’s disgusting the way they are acting.

[CodeRed]

12 minutes ago, wayne allisons tongues said:

If he wasn’t there player why all the upset at Cardiff when he died. He was on there website wearing/holding a shirt, 

They are doing all they can to not pay out, think it’s disgusting the way they are acting.

This - it was all over their website when the plane went missing "always a bluebird" and "one of our family"......   Until they realised there was a chance to wriggle out of paying.

What a vile disgusting club they are.

[Taz]

They actually should be told that all the fee(s) should be paid in full, otherwise they face a fine bigger than the proposed fee(s). 

Least that way Nantes and the family would get what they were owed whilst Cardiff were still punished for trying to avoid paying for a player that was essentially theirs.

[Slacker]

A long drawn out legal case could possible cost Cardiff a great deal of money should they lose. Money that they could spend doing the decent thing.Cant imagine their behaviour will enamour them to prospective future signings either.

[downendcity]

5 minutes ago, Slacker said:

A long drawn out legal case could possible cost Cardiff a great deal of money should they lose. Money that they could spend doing the decent thing.Cant imagine their behaviour will enamour them to prospective future signings either.

Heard Simon Jordan talking about the Sala situation on Talksport the other day.

He commented that all of this is about money ( as if we didn't know). He also mentioned that as part of the contract there will be the player's signing on fee and of course his contractual wages ( subject to any clauses in the contract) which would be due to the player's estate i.e. almost certainly his family. Jordan then said that morally Cardiff should have settled to ensure this was done, but he then went on to say that when it comes to money, football has no morals!

Jordan also said that he thinks Cardiff's actions are all about their insurer's trying to minimise how much they have to pay out, although if I remember correctly a few o here doubted that Cardiff would have had the player insured.

 

[WhistleHappy]

As a matter or Principality...

 

CARDIFF should not be allowed to WELSH on the deal !

 

 

Specially in such tragic circumstances. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Interesting line on it this morning.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2019/11/03/exclusive-cardiff-city-face-three-window-transfer-ban-fail-comply/

Update.

Appeal to the CAS is possible- probable?

Edited November 4, 2019 by Mr Popodopolous

[pillred]

28 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Interesting line on it this morning.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2019/11/03/exclusive-cardiff-city-face-three-window-transfer-ban-fail-comply/

Update.

 

Cardiff City are not coming out of this saga very well are they, would like to think we would have acted in a very different way.

[Akira]

6 minutes ago, pillred said:

Cardiff City are not coming out of this saga very well are they, would like to think we would have acted in a very different way.

Massive understatement. They come out of this absolutely stinking of shit. Disgusting what they're doing to try and get out of a relatively small transfer fee, given the sums of money they would've received from reaching the Premier League. 

Sadly, I think a lot of clubs would've taken this sort of action, as it seems money is everything to them. 

[downendcity]

2 minutes ago, Akira said:

Massive understatement. They come out of this absolutely stinking of shit. Disgusting what they're doing to try and get out of a relatively small transfer fee, given the sums of money they would've received from reaching the Premier League. 

Sadly, I think a lot of clubs would've taken this sort of action, as it seems money is everything to them. 

This seems to confirm what I heard Simon Jordan say on Talksport recently.  His comment was that when money is involved, football has no integrity.

Sala was flying to Cardiff for his first training session with his new club, so it is only with the benefit of hindsight, and the inconvenient death of said player en route , that the contract became an issue or Cardiff, especially as it seems the issue with the contract is down to Cardiff's error. 

Given the emotive nature of the circumstances, I am amazed that Cardiff has not sought to find a settlement agreed privately between the clubs and away from publicity.

[downendcity]

29 minutes ago, pillred said:

Cardiff City are not coming out of this saga very well are they, would like to think we would have acted in a very different way.

I know that as City fans we are completely biased, but I for one would be astounded had SL dealt with this situation as Cardiff has done.

[CodeRed]

Cardiff

Vile club

Vile fans

Vile manager

Vile owners

[BTRFTG]

On 02/10/2019 at 15:21, downendcity said:

Jordan also said that he thinks Cardiff's actions are all about their insurer's trying to minimise how much they have to pay out, although if I remember correctly a few o here doubted that Cardiff would have had the player insured.

I thought this had already been reported? 

From memory I believe the generic  insurance policy Cardiff hold for all their players and staffs cover them when travelling on official business.  You'll recall Cardiff did offer him a cheap flight which he declined preferring instead to pay for his own private service to nip home to say his goodbyes. The flight was booked via his agent, not the club, hence the club's insurance wasn't applicable, it being private and not official business.

[Akira]

10 hours ago, downendcity said:

This seems to confirm what I heard Simon Jordan say on Talksport recently.  His comment was that when money is involved, football has no integrity.

Sala was flying to Cardiff for his first training session with his new club, so it is only with the benefit of hindsight, and the inconvenient death of said player en route , that the contract became an issue or Cardiff, especially as it seems the issue with the contract is down to Cardiff's error. 

Given the emotive nature of the circumstances, I am amazed that Cardiff has not sought to find a settlement agreed privately between the clubs and away from publicity.

In all fairness, why should there be a 'settlement'? Cardiff agreed to buy a player for X amount. The fact he didn't get to play a game for them due to tragic circumstances is neither here nor there. They agreed a fee, they now need to pay it. If I was the owner of the selling club, no way would I agree to anything less than what was agreed. 

Edit - and if anything, I'd look to sue them for withholding funds owed to them! 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Akira
.

[downendcity]

30 minutes ago, Akira said:

In all fairness, why should there be a 'settlement'? Cardiff agreed to buy a player for X amount. The fact he didn't get to play a game for them due to tragic circumstances is neither here nor there. They agreed a fee, they now need to pay it. If I was the owner of the selling club, no way would I agree to anything less than what was agreed. 

Edit - and if anything, I'd look to sue them for withholding funds owed to them! 

I wasn't suggesting there should be a settlement, but that Cardiff should have attempted to get whatever settlement they could away from the gala of publicity.

If you remember, following Salah's death, the first salvo in this unedifying episode was forced by Cardiff themselves, when they leaked to the press that Nantes had "demanded" the first instalment of Sala's transfer fee. Cardiff implied that it was insensitive of Nantes so to do notwithstanding that as far as Nantes were concerned they were merely pursuing money that Cardiff rightly owed them.

There then followed the unseemly attempts by Cardiff to find any contractual or other reason for not having to pay.

While they might not deserve any settlement, they way they've gone about this has been poor and reflects very badly on the club.

 

[BTRFTG]

Cardiff bought Sala, pronounced as much and cried crocodile tears when he died.

That they now seek to argue the deal hadn't been completed in accordance with UEFA regulation when, so far as I understand, the loophole they seek to exploit relates to Nantes, Agents and Cardiff attempting to circumvent some of the reportable costs associated with transactions shows them to be the utter scumbags they've always been.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Apparently Cardiff have 45 days to pay up- this of course is subject to appeals to the CAS, but if Chelsea sets a precedent the ban would be in place while said appeal is prepared/heard.

[Montpelierblue]

Apparently our hands are tied by legal and insurance matters, I wish we had paid up but obv the club have been told not to as this could make us liable for a far greater claim by Salas family for starters. Besides which, it was an agent who was employed by Nantes who put him in that terrible flight, not the club, who had arranged a scheduled one from Paris to London. It’s a horrible murky world of football transfers and agents, makes me puke.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Which court would appeals etc be heard in if it reaches that point?

I'm guessing CAS but beyond that?

[AshtonPark]

1 hour ago, Montpelierblue said:

Apparently our hands are tied by legal and insurance matters, I wish we had paid up but obv the club have been told not to as this could make us liable for a far greater claim by Salas family for starters. Besides which, it was an agent who was employed by Nantes who put him in that terrible flight, not the club, who had arranged a scheduled one from Paris to London. It’s a horrible murky world of football transfers and agents, makes me puke.

How on earth are your hands tied by legal and insurence matters?

You owe Nantes money, pay the money. Cardiff made out like he was a Cardiff player regardless of who booked what Plane cardiff acted like he was a Cardiff player so pay up.

If he wasnt a Cardiff player why did you have all the fuss at your games, all the crying, Cardiff fans borrowing the bobby reid song and chanting youll always be a bluebird with me?

He was either a cardiff player so you pay up,

Or he wasnt a cardiff player which goes back to what was all the crying, forever a bluebird banners etc?

Edited November 6, 2019 by AshtonPark

[BTRFTG]

1 hour ago, Montpelierblue said:

Apparently our hands are tied by legal and insurance matters,

You agreed terms and exchanged contracts on the Friday. Once filed UEFA's diligence team spotted both yourselves and Nantes were seeking not to include agent payment fees in the agreed form and thus that element of the contract was requested to be revised into the correct form which was due to be signed once Sala returned to Cardiff. You hired the private plane to bring him over for his medical and offered to take him to the match Saturday. Sala wished to return to Nantes to say his goodbyes over the weekend prior to being required to report for training on the Tuesday. As he was your player Cardiff offered Sala a fly-be ticket Cardiff to Paris but to return for the Tuesday it required him routing Paris to London on the Monday. As Paris/Nantes is around a 4 hour drive this would have left little time for him in Nantes, hence he opted for a private, direct flight that he paid for. Cardiff should have, but didn't, undertake due diligence to show liability cover was in place for the transport their employee had booked. That's  why although Sala would have been covered by Cardiff's insurance for approved forms of transport he wasn't covered for this direct, non-commercial charter.

There's no doubt had Sala returned the revised agents fee amendment would have been signed, so for Cardiff to argue that element 'wasn't signed' and thus negates the contract is beneath the lowest of the low. That has nothing to do with insurance or liability. Cardiff agreed, had every intent and that constitutes a contract and you owe Nantes for the player you purchased from them. 

Edited November 6, 2019 by BTRFTG

[BRISTOL86]

3 minutes ago, AshtonPark said:

How on earth are your hands tied by legal and insurence matters?

You owe Nantes money, pay the money. Cardiff made out like he was a Cardiff player regardless of who booked what Plane cardiff acted like he was a Cardiff player so pay up.

If he wasnt a Cardiff player why did you have all the fuss at your games, all the crying, Cardiff fans borrowing the bobby reid song and chanting youll always be a bluebird with me?

He was either a cardiff player so you pay up,

Or he wasnt a cardiff player which goes back to what was all the crying, forever a bluebird banners etc?

With the greatest of respect, as much as I love a good Cardiff bashing, the entire affair is clearly considerably more complex than that. 

[AshtonPark]

8 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

With the greatest of respect, as much as I love a good Cardiff bashing, the entire affair is clearly considerably more complex than that. 

Is it really though? He either was a Cardiff player or he wasnt?

If he hadnt tragically died along with the pilot in that plane, would Cardiff have paid the money or would they had been holding out out they are now? That to me, paints the true picture.

[BRISTOL86]

37 minutes ago, AshtonPark said:

Is it really though? He either was a Cardiff player or he wasnt?

If he hadnt tragically died along with the pilot in that plane, would Cardiff have paid the money or would they had been holding out out they are now? That to me, paints the true picture.

Of course but the transfer would have been formally concluded from a legal standpoint. 

Was the transfer formally concluded at the point Sala died? I genuinely don’t know.

And even if it was, I imagine that Cardiff have been discussing it with their insurers to see if the insurer is on the hook for the fee. Has there ever been a precedent for this type of incident or is it unchartered territory from a legal/insurance perspective? Again, no idea.

There’s all sorts of shady angles on this story, so let’s not kid ourselves that it’s a simple situation for the sake of point scoring against a rival. It’s pretty poor taste when a man has lost his life. 

[BTRFTG]

36 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

And even if it was, I imagine that Cardiff have been discussing it with their insurers to see if the insurer is on the hook for the fee.

You've conflated a number of distinct legal issues. The prime issue discussed here is whether Cardiff had entered into contract with Nantes for Sala's services. It seems pretty clear they had, hence owe Nantes. Whether Cardiff insured the player's contract, life or travel is a matter for them and I suspect such insurances differ. I understand Cardiff hold generic travel insurance for all their employees (not specific individuals) whilst on official business. Could be Sala's personal injury, life or contract cover wouldn't commence until UEFA had ratified the deal, but that would be Cardiff's risk and is partly of their own making in the way they attempted to misdirect agents fees.

I rather hope Cardiff are hoist by their own petard. That by arguing he wasn't their player (despite having contracted for him) insurers who decline 'agreed' cover on the basis the revised contract wasn't signed argue Cardiff had no intention of enacting the insurance and therefore no cover was in place.....

Edited November 6, 2019 by BTRFTG

[BRISTOL86]

3 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

You've conflated a number of distinct legal issues. The prime issue discussed here is whether Cardiff had entered into contract with Nantes for Sala's services. It seems pretty clear they had, hence owe Nantes. Whether Cardiff insured the player's contract, life or travel is a matter for them and I suspect such insurances differ. I understand Cardiff hold generic travel insurance for all their employees (not specific individuals) whilst on official business. Could be Sala's personal injury, life or contract cover wouldn't commence until UEFA had ratified the deal, but that would be Cardiff's risk and is partly of their own making in the way they attempted to misdirect agents fees.

I rather hope Cardiff are hoist by their own petard. That by arguing he wasn't their player (despite having contracted for him) insurers who decline 'agreed' cover on the basis the revised contract wasn't signed argue Cardiff had no intention of enacting the insurance and therefore no cover was in place.....

I’m not going to pretend to know the ins and outs of the situation, but suspect there’s an awful lot that those close to it - from both sides - know that we don’t....

Just seems a bit crass trying to score points on Cardiff about it when none of us know 1% of the situation. 

[BTRFTG]

7 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

I’m not going to pretend to know the ins and outs of the situation, but suspect there’s an awful lot that those close to it - from both sides - know that we don’t....

Just seems a bit crass trying to score points on Cardiff about it when none of us know 1% of the situation. 

There was widespread reporting in the French press, from Sala's family and Cardiff were somewhat unguarded with their initial, posturing statements post his demise. Statements on which they've subsequently backtracked ( the great things Ng about social media and the internet is once it's out there it's out thete..... Cardiff went public as to why they thought they should not be liable though few, if any, appear to agree with their position.

[downendcity]

8 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

There was widespread reporting in the French press, from Sala's family and Cardiff were somewhat unguarded with their initial, posturing statements post his demise. Statements on which they've subsequently backtracked ( the great things Ng about social media and the internet is once it's out there it's out thete..... Cardiff went public as to why they thought they should not be liable though few, if any, appear to agree with their position.

Very soon after the crash Cardiff leaked to the press that Nantes had "demanded" the first instalment of the transfer fee, accusing the French club of being insensitive in view of the timing and making Nantes appear the aggressive bad boys from a financial standpoint. I think Im right in saying that it subsequently turned out that all Nantes had done was to issue a form of invoice in resect of the first instalment - a pretty standard procedure.

At the same time Cardiff mentioned that they just wanted their solicitor to check that "everything was in order". At that time my first thought was that they were looking for anything that would enable them to get out of paying for a player , whose untimely death meant he had no value to them. Subsequent events seem to confirm that initial suspicion.

I am sure that Cardiff have been acting on advice given by their lawyers and insurers, but sometimes, and this might be one of those occasions, it would be good if the owner had just said we need to do the right thing, even though it might not be the best thing financially.

 

 

[PHILINFRANCE]

16 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Very soon after the crash Cardiff leaked to the press that Nantes had "demanded" the first instalment of the transfer fee, accusing the French club of being insensitive in view of the timing and making Nantes appear the aggressive bad boys from a financial standpoint. I think Im right in saying that it subsequently turned out that all Nantes had done was to issue a form of invoice in resect of the first instalment - a pretty standard procedure.

At the same time Cardiff mentioned that they just wanted their solicitor to check that "everything was in order". At that time my first thought was that they were looking for anything that would enable them to get out of paying for a player , whose untimely death meant he had no value to them. Subsequent events seem to confirm that initial suspicion.

I am sure that Cardiff have been acting on advice given by their lawyers and insurers, but sometimes, and this might be one of those occasions, it would be good if the owner had just said we need to do the right thing, even though it might not be the best thing financially.

 

 

I mentioned way back in this thread that 'Demand' is simply the French word for ask and bears none of the aggressive connotations the same word holds in the English language.

I seem to recall also that I mentioned it is standard practice in France to formalise a request for payment, frequently by means of a 'recorded delivery' letter, thus simplifying any 'demand' for interest in the event of a delayed settlement.

 

 

[BTRFTG]

Invoices are a red herring. Was there a 'consideration' - clearly there was as the fees were disclosed. Was there 'mutuality of understanding', well the two contracting parties exchanged signed-contract copies and sent them for registration which, er, suggests there was. Matters not the UEFA amended contract wasn't signed, the intention was clearly had Sala lived it would have been and that's an enforceable contract. Unless the reason for variation related to capability (i.e. he wasn't Nantes' to trade,) else the contract contained or induced illegality (standardisation of reporting fees are not likely a legal requirement rather they are likely to have tax implication,) then the signed and unsigned versions, for the purpose of intent, are moot.

[Montpelierblue]

5 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

With the greatest of respect, as much as I love a good Cardiff bashing, the entire affair is clearly considerably more complex than that. 

If only life was as simple as he makes out hey.....:laugh:

[Harry]

4 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

You've conflated a number of distinct legal issues. The prime issue discussed here is whether Cardiff had entered into contract with Nantes for Sala's services. It seems pretty clear they had, hence owe Nantes. Whether Cardiff insured the player's contract, life or travel is a matter for them and I suspect such insurances differ. I understand Cardiff hold generic travel insurance for all their employees (not specific individuals) whilst on official business. Could be Sala's personal injury, life or contract cover wouldn't commence until UEFA had ratified the deal, but that would be Cardiff's risk and is partly of their own making in the way they attempted to misdirect agents fees.

I rather hope Cardiff are hoist by their own petard. That by arguing he wasn't their player (despite having contracted for him) insurers who decline 'agreed' cover on the basis the revised contract wasn't signed argue Cardiff had no intention of enacting the insurance and therefore no cover was in place.....

On the insurance side of things, if Cardiff had travel insurance for their employees then this would strictly be for business purposes only. I’m sure the insurer would state that a flight to see friends and family would not be construed as ‘business’ purposes. 

With Life insurance, well in a previous workplace of mine I used to look after a number of Premier League clubs Group Life insurance policies. Generally the cover was £2m, some were a bit higher at £4m. This was a few years ago so the cover levels may well have increased but certainly not to the tune of the £15m fee. 

The cover on the policy would not have had to be notified and agreed by the insurer, the way it worked was that any ‘new entrants’ are covered immediately upon joining the club (the admin gets done later, but cover is in place on day 1). So the insurer is liable as long as he was a Cardiff player. I guess that is what they’re arguing over, ie whether he was legally an employee of Cardiff on his date of death. 

Likewise I also looked after the PFA’s life insurance arrangement. So if Sala had been registered with the PFA prior to his date of death he’d also be covered for up to £2m with them. 

[REDOXO]

Are they going after each other Cardiff and Nantes under English/Welsh Law or French Law or some other jurisdiction? 
 

 

[downendcity]

37 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Are they going after each other Cardiff and Nantes under English/Welsh Law or French Law or some other jurisdiction? 
 

After the recent Brexit case, I reckon Cardiff will want to take it to the Scottish Courts, who will probably rule that Nantes owe Cardiff the transfer fee!

[REDOXO]

1 hour ago, downendcity said:

After the recent Brexit case, I reckon Cardiff will want to take it to the Scottish Courts, who will probably rule that Nantes owe Cardiff the transfer fee!

Plus costs as clearly it’s a case of French protectionism!

[downendcity]

42 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Plus costs as clearly it’s a case of French protectionism!

Had they put the case to Speaker Bercow he would probably have judged that Cardiff should never have been relegated from the premier league.

[REDOXO]

33 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Had they put the case to Speaker Bercow he would probably have judged that Cardiff should never have been relegated from the premier league.

Of course not. The Druid minority rights are often overlooked. There should have been positive discrimination and an English team relegated.   

[BTRFTG]

14 hours ago, Harry said:

certainly not to the tune of the £15m fee. 

Good points all Harry, ditto had the transfer not been completed Sala doubtless would be covered by continuation of Nantes insurance. I'd also expect there to be liability in respect of minimum contract values (many employers continue to pay a percentage of income to relatives for a defined period.)

As you'll know, such policies invariably include exclusion clauses ( normally covering dangerous activities.) I've no idea whether the flight taken might be considered as such but there's lack of clarity as to the hire arrangements for the aircraft (was it a passenger hire?) Years back I used to hire 2 light aircraft each night shipping newspapers to and from Europe. Occasionally I'd decide to jump on board with the pilot though had something happened I wouldn't have been covered as that wasn't the purpose for which I'd contracted the flights.

[Mr Popodopolous]

15 hours ago, REDOXO said:

Are they going after each other Cardiff and Nantes under English/Welsh Law or French Law or some other jurisdiction? 
 

 

An interesting question.

FIFA are a global body not based in either, so I question whether either set of laws applicable in this instance- certainly in terms of a FIFA type sanction. Swiss law? CAS?

That said, this case is pretty unusual- but FIFA are based in Switzerland so any case should be heard there...

Edited November 7, 2019 by Mr Popodopolous

[Natchfever]

20 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Of course but the transfer would have been formally concluded from a legal standpoint. 

Was the transfer formally concluded at the point Sala died? I genuinely don’t know.

And even if it was, I imagine that Cardiff have been discussing it with their insurers to see if the insurer is on the hook for the fee. Has there ever been a precedent for this type of incident or is it unchartered territory from a legal/insurance perspective? Again, no idea.

There’s all sorts of shady angles on this story, so let’s not kid ourselves that it’s a simple situation for the sake of point scoring against a rival. It’s pretty poor taste when a man has lost his life. 

Agreed  and no one can say for certain that BCFC wouldn't have acted in exactly the same way as CCFC as uncomfortable as that may be to consider.