Emiliano Sala

[Harry]

9 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Good points all Harry, ditto had the transfer not been completed Sala doubtless would be covered by continuation of Nantes insurance. I'd also expect there to be liability in respect of minimum contract values (many employers continue to pay a percentage of income to relatives for a defined period.)

As you'll know, such policies invariably include exclusion clauses ( normally covering dangerous activities.) I've no idea whether the flight taken might be considered as such but there's lack of clarity as to the hire arrangements for the aircraft (was it a passenger hire?) Years back I used to hire 2 light aircraft each night shipping newspapers to and from Europe. Occasionally I'd decide to jump on board with the pilot though had something happened I wouldn't have been covered as that wasn't the purpose for which I'd contracted the flights.

Indeed, had cover not commenced on the Cardiff policy, then there would be an argument that cover was still in place on the Nantes policy (if indeed they had one?). 

As for continued payments to relatives, you don’t tend to see too much of that nowadays - generally just a lump sum is covered. Many insurers pulled back from such ‘annuities’ a number of years ago - large capitalisation factors (and thus big payouts) were the norm but with years of low interest rates insurers weren’t getting bang for their buck and so had to pull back on offering such large and lengthy sums. Many firms who had ‘annuities’ covered were advised to remove this and instead increase the lump sum cover instead. 

As for exclusions, with the Life policies the football clubs held which I dealt with, there were no exclusions. Cover was offered to a certain value (ie £2m) with no questions asked. Exclusions would only ever be applied if an individual was medically underwritten for cover (where the insurer could look at lifestyle/hobbies as well as health, and potentially exclude dangerous sports or flying). The cover under the football policies was in place with no exclusions. 

[REDOXO]

11 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

An interesting question.

FIFA are a global body not based in either, so I question whether either set of laws applicable in this instance- certainly in terms of a FIFA type sanction. Swiss law? CAS?

That said, this case is pretty unusual- but FIFA are based in Switzerland so any case should be heard there...

That’s kind of what I thought. If this is correct any meanderings on tort law need to be on the grounds of what Swiss law allows one would think. Any Swiss law scholars on here?

[reddoh]

On 06/11/2019 at 19:58, Harry said:

On the insurance side of things, if Cardiff had travel insurance for their employees then this would strictly be for business purposes only. I’m sure the insurer would state that a flight to see friends and family would not be construed as ‘business’ purposes. 

With Life insurance, well in a previous workplace of mine I used to look after a number of Premier League clubs Group Life insurance policies. Generally the cover was £2m, some were a bit higher at £4m. This was a few years ago so the cover levels may well have increased but certainly not to the tune of the £15m fee. 

The cover on the policy would not have had to be notified and agreed by the insurer, the way it worked was that any ‘new entrants’ are covered immediately upon joining the club (the admin gets done later, but cover is in place on day 1). So the insurer is liable as long as he was a Cardiff player. I guess that is what they’re arguing over, ie whether he was legally an employee of Cardiff on his date of death. 

Likewise I also looked after the PFA’s life insurance arrangement. So if Sala had been registered with the PFA prior to his date of death he’d also be covered for up to £2m with them. 

Wow why did you leave such an exciting place of work? was it for more money?

[Harry]

20 hours ago, reddoh said:

Wow why did you leave such an exciting place of work? was it for more money?

Redundancy, sadly. 

But it turned out ok and I’m earning more now anyway

Was interesting work though, particularly having sight of the player salaries!!

[reddoh]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

Redundancy, sadly. 

But it turned out ok and I’m earning more now anyway

Was interesting work though, particularly having sight of the player salaries!!

glad for you, made redundant four times came out smiling each time but funnily enough the first was classed as a job for life but it pays a pension and not yet 55  

[formerly known as ivan]

To think this was nearly a year ago...

Cardiff planning to mark the occasion which I would understand fully it if wasn’t for all the shithousery that has gone on with them since.

Aren’t they refusing to pay any fee as he was never their player apparently.

Vile club.

Did they ever find the body of the pilot?

[Super]

7 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said:

To think this was nearly a year ago...

Cardiff planning to mark the occasion which I would understand fully it if wasn’t for all the shithousery that has gone on with them since.

Aren’t they refusing to pay any fee as he was never their player apparently.

Vile club.

Did they ever find the body of the pilot?

No they didnt find the body. Not sure this is worth going over again.

[downendcity]

On 20/01/2020 at 21:07, formerly known as ivan said:

To think this was nearly a year ago...

Cardiff planning to mark the occasion which I would understand fully it if wasn’t for all the shithousery that has gone on with them since.

Aren’t they refusing to pay any fee as he was never their player apparently.

Vile club.

Did they ever find the body of the pilot?

From the BBC website.

Cardiff's way of marking the occasion is a little "unusual"!

Cardiff City has passed on details to prosecutors in France to consider whether FC Nantes has a case to answer over the death of Emiliano Sala.

The Argentine, 28, and his pilot died when their plane from France to Wales crashed in the sea on 21 January 2019.

The Bluebirds have refused to pay a £15m transfer fee to the French club and said "sufficient evidence of wrongdoing" has been found.

Nantes said the club was "absolutely stunned" by the move.

The Piper Malibu N264DB carrying Sala and pilot David Ibbotson went missing over waters near the Channel Islands on 21 January. It took rescuers two weeks to find the wreckage.

The footballer's body was recovered on 8 February after a private rescue team took over the search.

The body of Mr Ibbotson, from Crowle in Lincolnshire, has never been found.

[Guest]

I just read the story myself, and it seems they will do anything possible if it helps them out of not paying up. The way they have conducted themselves (bar straight after the incident) has been disgusting, and as much as we would blame them as a club, I would guess most of their fans would think the same as well.

[wendyredredrobin]

I think that following this awful event, anyone doing transfer business with Cardiff will need to demand cash up front.

Their behaviour seems pretty appalling to me.

[Guest Keyred]

I used to think that Cardiff weren't that dissimilar a club to ourselves (yeah I know, Welsh, sheep-shaggers etc) but their behaviour over the tragic Sala affair is more than reprehensible, it's unforgivable.

If we were in a similar situation (heaven forbid) I would expect Steve Lansdown and the club to honour the agreement and I believe they would. Hopefully that belief will never be tested.

I would hope that the people of Cardiff and supporters of the club do not agree with the owner/board in this situation and would make their feelings known. I won't, however, be holding my breath.

Sadly I have to concur that in this instance especially, Cardiff are indeed a vile club.

[cidercity1987]

Absolute scumbags, I would be horrified if we acted in such a way as Caerdydd

[Natchfever]

8 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

Absolute scumbags, I would be horrified if we acted in such a way as Caerdydd

The thing is, we have absolutely no idea whether we would act that way or not.

I daresay Cardiff fans would have expressed disgust if another club had acted like that pre Sala.

Clubs are generally run on financial lines and the right thing doesn't always come into it, if financially it isn't the right thing for the club.

100% not saying that's the right way to be incidentally, just that I don't think any other club can be all righteous about such things unless they have been in a similar position.

[Lanterne Rouge]

I wonder if this played a part in NW`s decision to leave. Did he know what was coming and wanted no part of it? He is a decent man and I could see him thinking this sort of thing to be morally wrong.

[Montpelierblue]

22 hours ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

I wonder if this played a part in NW`s decision to leave. Did he know what was coming and wanted no part of it? He is a decent man and I could see him thinking this sort of thing to be morally wrong.

It was warnocks dealings with the very dodgy agent willie mackay that led to all this possibly. Why were WM’s two kids signed by us, but never played or hardly seen? I actually wish like many fans I know wish we had paid the initial 5 million, but it’s all in the hands of the lawyers and the club were apparently told not too. I’d be amazed if any club went against legal advice. Also, Nantes have refused to even talk to ccfc since the tragedy. They have a very dodgy chairman who all their fans hate.  I’m amazed they haven’t enquired into why Sala was put in that dodgy flight with an un qualified pilot, but they haven’t, they just want the cash.

If it weren't for us taking this course of legal action against them then those individuals whether agents or representatives of Nantes FC who contributed to this tragedy would go unchallenged. No-one else seems bothered to uncover the facts.. I’m glad we are searching for the answers to finding those responsible for the poor guys death. 

[phantom]

14 hours ago, Montpelierblue said:

It was warnocks dealings with the very dodgy agent willie mackay that led to all this possibly.

Was interesting that when Warnock left Cardiff it was reported that the club requested his phone be returned so they could keep hold of all texts and emails into this deal

Maybe on to something there @Montpelierblue

[phantom]

The Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) will publish its final report into the crash later today, may be interesting reading

Sadly for the pilots wife and family they will never get closure unless his body is found

[phantom]

EMILIANO Sala's plane crashed into the English Channel after carbon monoxide leaked into the cabin and his unqualified pilot lost control, an investigation has found.

The Cardiff City striker was killed along with David Ibbotson when their plane plunged into water off the coast of Guernsey at high speed.

An Air Accidents Investigations Branch report found Mr Ibbotson from Crowle, North Lincs, did not hold a licence to fly commercially and was not trained to fly at night.

The Piper Malibu PA-46 plane crashed on January 21 just hours after Argentinian striker Sala had signed for Premier League Cardiff from French club Nantes for £15m.

He was flying privately to the Welsh capital from France but the original pilot David Henderson, 64, arranged for Mr Ibbotson to take the flight instead.

Evidence showed Mr Ibbotson felt "under pressure” to complete the journey because he was being paid.

The report concluded: “The pilot’s ability to control the aircraft was probably impaired by the effects of CO poisoning, but he appeared to have some level of function at a late stage of the flight.

“The pilot’s lack of training in night flying and recent practice in instrument flying is likely to have increased the risk of loss of control.

“It was not possible to quantify the extent to which either factor contributed to events but it was likely that the loss of control was made significantly more likely by the probability was affected by CO poisoning.”

Sala's body was discovered in the wreckage three days later but Mr Ibbotson has never been found.
The report said Sala would have been "deeply unconscious" at the time of the crash based on levels of carbon monoxide in his bloodstream.

On the prior flight from Cardiff to Nantes, the pilot had noticed four technical problems, including an engine oil leak, a loss of brake pressure, and a rogue stall warning.

The report found the most probable cause of carbon monoxide entering the cabin was a leak of exhaust fumes into the heating system.

Mr Ibbotson, whose SEP rating on his EASA licence expired in November 2018, meaning he had no ‘night rating’, was not qualified to fly the aircraft at the time of the accident, the report authors said.

The report added: “The pilot was not permitted to be remunerated for the flight, yet there was significant evidence to show that he was expecting to be paid.

“It is likely that the pilot felt some pressure to complete the return leg of the flight even though it would be at night and in poor weather.”

[exAtyeoMax]

3 minutes ago, phantom said:

EMILIANO Sala's plane crashed into the English Channel after carbon monoxide leaked into the cabin and his unqualified pilot lost control, an investigation has found.

The Cardiff City striker was killed along with David Ibbotson when their plane plunged into water off the coast of Guernsey at high speed.

An Air Accidents Investigations Branch report found Mr Ibbotson from Crowle, North Lincs, did not hold a licence to fly commercially and was not trained to fly at night.

The Piper Malibu PA-46 plane crashed on January 21 just hours after Argentinian striker Sala had signed for Premier League Cardiff from French club Nantes for £15m.

He was flying privately to the Welsh capital from France but the original pilot David Henderson, 64, arranged for Mr Ibbotson to take the flight instead.

Evidence showed Mr Ibbotson felt "under pressure” to complete the journey because he was being paid.

The report concluded: “The pilot’s ability to control the aircraft was probably impaired by the effects of CO poisoning, but he appeared to have some level of function at a late stage of the flight.

“The pilot’s lack of training in night flying and recent practice in instrument flying is likely to have increased the risk of loss of control.

“It was not possible to quantify the extent to which either factor contributed to events but it was likely that the loss of control was made significantly more likely by the probability was affected by CO poisoning.”

Sala's body was discovered in the wreckage three days later but Mr Ibbotson has never been found.
The report said Sala would have been "deeply unconscious" at the time of the crash based on levels of carbon monoxide in his bloodstream.

On the prior flight from Cardiff to Nantes, the pilot had noticed four technical problems, including an engine oil leak, a loss of brake pressure, and a rogue stall warning.

The report found the most probable cause of carbon monoxide entering the cabin was a leak of exhaust fumes into the heating system.

Mr Ibbotson, whose SEP rating on his EASA licence expired in November 2018, meaning he had no ‘night rating’, was not qualified to fly the aircraft at the time of the accident, the report authors said.

The report added: “The pilot was not permitted to be remunerated for the flight, yet there was significant evidence to show that he was expecting to be paid.

“It is likely that the pilot felt some pressure to complete the return leg of the flight even though it would be at night and in poor weather.”

Anything about him? Surely the contract was with him and Cardiff/Nante/Sala, he should have some liability?

[phantom]

35 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Anything about him? Surely the contract was with him and Cardiff/Nante/Sala, he should have some liability?

This was just the CAA's report today

[exAtyeoMax]

11 minutes ago, phantom said:

This was just the CAA's report today

There hasn't been much about him at all since the accident. Perhaps because there may be a criminal investigation?

Edited March 13, 2020 by exAtyeoMax

[pillred]

Turns out the pilot wasn't even licensed to fly the plane getting a sorrier story by the minute.

[Montpelierblue]

3 hours ago, pillred said:

Turns out the pilot wasn't even licensed to fly the plane getting a sorrier story by the minute.

Yes as we thought, the scum agent put him in that plane.

[Maesknoll Red]

4 minutes ago, Montpelierblue said:

Yes as we thought, the scum agent put him in that plane.

The agent had hired a licensed pilot, it was the pilot who passed the job onto the unlicensed pilot, not sure how that is the agents fault. Also, why did the pilot fly the plane back, when he reported faults with it on the way over, sounds like someone under pressure.

[alexukhc]

So he noticed the leak on the way to Nantes from Cardiff and still thought it should be ok to fly back? **** that

[RedM]

12 hours ago, Maesknoll Red said:

The agent had hired a licensed pilot, it was the pilot who passed the job onto the unlicensed pilot, not sure how that is the agents fault. Also, why did the pilot fly the plane back, when he reported faults with it on the way over, sounds like someone under pressure.

And most certainly all about the money. The party paying were no doubt charged a Premium and therefore demanded a premium service, you don’t say no when they are calling the shots.

But of course you should, safety is of course paramount. I don’t have experience of planes, only hot air balloon pilots, and if there is any slight doubt with equipment or weather they will cancel, even if they have disappointed people already stood in the basket. I’ve been in there and been cancelled with only minutes to go. The mantra is very much that we will fly another day.

I don’t care how important it was to get from A to B, nothing can be that vital that you risk a life. This now seems much more than just chancing on coming across bad weather. At the end of the day he was a footballer, even someone who could save the world from this virus shouldn’t be put on a plane and fingers crossed he makes it.

Very sad for all involved, someone must be having sleepless nights. But greed and money once again are truly the root of all evils. How tragic to be driven by both.

[exAtyeoMax]

Don’t airports have to get air clearance to fly? Surely they would know who or what was taking off from their runway/strip? Or does it not qualify because it’s so small/private flight? 

[redsquirrel]

if he wasn't licensed to fly in the dark,did the airport even know he was going to fly it? 

[Guest]

Long time ago, I remember that people could 'bend' the rules of flying. I think it was something along the lines of 'Visual flight rules'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_flight_rules

But this is all speculation

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Looks like the family are exploring legal action vs Cardiff.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12241963/salas-family-taking-legal-action-against-cardiff

Edited March 10, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Son of Fred]

On 14/03/2020 at 12:31, bcfcfinker said:

Long time ago, I remember that people could 'bend' the rules of flying. I think it was something along the lines of 'Visual flight rules'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_flight_rules

But this is all speculation

 

..during the day,,,good(clear)weather with cloud clearance(most importantly no loss of visual reference).....not really ambiguous.

[Phileas Fogg]

15 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Looks like the family are exploring legal action vs Cardiff.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12241963/salas-family-taking-legal-action-against-cardiff

I had completely forgotten about this story after the last year we've had. Shows how quickly the news cycle moves.

[CliftonCliff]

Can't do the link-thing, and didn't want to spend ages looking for the original thread to update, but for anyone who was following this very sad story at the time, there is a report on BBC News website regarding the latest legal proceedings in the case.

It does seem that some sort of justice will be done. Henderson, who - allegedly - arranged the flight (piloted by Ibbotson, whose licence to fly commercial passengers had expired), has pleaded guilty to a charge of (I think) "endangering an aircraft" - or something of that nature.

Couldn't see it mentioned anywhere else on the forum, and I know the story was of interest to some members, so though I'd just draw attention to this development.

 

Edited October 18, 2021 by CliftonCliff
typo

[Bristol Rob]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-58951342

 

[CyderInACan]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-58951342

A man has pleaded guilty to a charge relating to the flight in which footballer Emiliano Sala died.

David Henderson admitted attempting to discharge a passenger without valid permission or authorisation.

The plane carrying 28-year-old Sala and pilot David Ibbotson crashed into the English Channel in January 2019.

Henderson, 66, of the East Riding of Yorkshire, will now go on trial on a separate charge, accused of endangering the safety of an aircraft.

He entered the guilty plea when he asked to be rearraigned on the eve of his trial, as he appeared before High Court judge Mr Justice Foxton at Cardiff Crown Court on Monday.

• The story of Emiliano Sala
• Sala - timeline of the Cardiff signing

IMAGE SOURCE,GETTY IMAGES/DAVID IBBOTSON

Image caption,Emiliano Sala (left) was on board a plane being flown by pilot David Ibbotson

Henderson is alleged to have arranged the flight carrying Sala and 59-year-old Mr Ibbotson.

The single-engine Piper Malibu aircraft was bringing the striker, who was involved in a multimillion pound transfer deal, from Nantes in France to Cardiff where he had signed for the Bluebirds.

The body of Sala was recovered from the seabed the following month, but neither the body of Mr Ibbotson, from Crowle, Lincolnshire, nor the plane's wreckage, was recovered.

Image caption,The Piper Malibu N264DB disappeared from radar near the Channel Islands on 21 January.

At a hearing in October 2020, the court heard how Mr Ibbotson's licence to fly an aircraft commercially had expired in November 2018.

The Air Accidents Investigations Branch (AAIB) reported at the start of the year that the plane had been leaking carbon monoxide during the flight and a final manoeuvre by Mr Ibbotson to pull up the plane had caused it to break up mid-air.

An jury inquest into his death was postponed until after Mr Henderson's trial and is scheduled for 14 February 2022.

[CliftonCliff]

Thank you to the more tech-savvy posters who have come to my aid with the links to this story. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by CliftonCliff
emoji

[CliftonCliff]

10 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

Thank you to the more tech-savvy posters who have come to my aid with the links to this story. 

... and to the mods or whoever merged this with the original thread.

[Mr Popodopolous]

When will it be decided as to whether Cardiff have to pay up the outstanding transfer fee?

That's ongoing I believe but post news of a hearing at the CAS being due, it's been silent in that regard.

[CliftonCliff]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

When will it be decided as to whether Cardiff have to pay up the outstanding transfer fee?

That's ongoing I believe but post news of a hearing at the CAS being due, it's been silent in that regard.

I had forgotten about the rather unseemly wrangling over whose player he was, legally, at the time of his tragic death. Thanks for reminding us. it will be interesting to see how that one plays out. 

[Bristol Rob]

34 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

I had forgotten about the rather unseemly wrangling over whose player he was, legally, at the time of his tragic death. Thanks for reminding us. it will be interesting to see how that one plays out. 

And probably the cause of huge distress to his family. 

A real shame that they are having to do this at CAS and couldn't do something to resolve this amicably.

[exAtyeoMax]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-59062626
 

[Davefevs]

Shocking.

[Coxy27]

Has it been reported anywhere what sort of sentence he could face?

[CodeRed]

4 hours ago, Coxy27 said:

Has it been reported anywhere what sort of sentence he could face?

Up to 5 years according to the Guardian.

 

[Super]

The businessman who organised a flight that crashed, killing footballer Emiliano Sala, has been jailed for 18 months for endangering the safety of an aircraft.

Pretty pathetic sentence.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Super

[Fordy62]

5 minutes ago, Super said:

The businessman who organised a flight that crashed, killing footballer Emiliano Sala, has been jailed for 18 months for endangering the safety of an aircraft.

Pretty pathetic sentence.

What did he do to endanger it? I mean I know he arranged it, but what did he do wrong?

[Super]

3 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

What did he do to endanger it? I mean I know he arranged it, but what did he do wrong?

Surely getting someone who doesn't hold a commercial pilots licience to fly a plane?

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

6 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

What did he do to endanger it? I mean I know he arranged it, but what did he do wrong?

He’s been convicted of a criminal offence for heaven’s sake.  His actions contributed to two men losing their lives.

[Chicken George]

18 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

What did he do to endanger it? I mean I know he arranged it, but what did he do wrong?

And you’re supposed to be a copper??!!
 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Enter Sandman

[Fordy62]

You lot are a little touchy this morning. Re read my question and just answer it. I don’t know the answer, that’s why I’m asking!

[BTRFTG]

4 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

What did he do to endanger it? I mean I know he arranged it, but what did he do wrong?

The CAA report highlighted Henderson's cavalier attitude toward paperwork and regulation. Recall, although everybody's focussing on the pilot's lack of current credentials the primary cause of the accident was a badly maintained aircraft leaking carbon monoxide into the cabin, thus incapacitating the occupants. It would be difficult to prove that lack of current credentials made the difference, rather it's a succession of failings that caused the crash (as is the norm in such cases.) As the pilot had previously held various licences it would be difficult to prove beyond doubt that allowing Ibbotson to pilot would likely have resulted in an accident, that's why the endangering charge arose. His actions were reckless and dangerous though clearly not intended to kill.

Its also somewhat moot. I used to charter a couple of planes out of Rochford & Maastricht each night shipping newspapers and other goods. Those flights weren't licenced to carry passengers but there was nothing to prevent I or anybody else I and the pilot  authorised to travel sitting in for the ride. Key factor in the paperwork being occupants other than the pilot weren't insured. But sure as hell I wouldn't have flown were I not sure the flight operator ran a safety first, no corners cut operation.

[Fordy62]

17 minutes ago, Super said:

Surely getting someone who doesn't hold a commercial pilots licience to fly a plane?

I didn’t know. I haven’t followed the case particular, so cheers. 

[CliftonCliff]

Henderson does emerge from this looking like a pretty despicable character. I wonder if this conviction and sentence might not, in fact, be the end of it. He seems to have been found guilty of flagrant breaches of aviation regulations and sentenced accordingly, but the inquest into Sala’s tragic death doesn’t open until next year. If, say, a verdict of “unlawful killing “ were to be delivered, would that then render him liable to charges of a still more serious nature, in addition to the technical transgressions? Or indeed, open to a civil action by the player’s family? Any lawyers out there who can offer an insight?

[Andy082005]

3 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

What did he do to endanger it? I mean I know he arranged it, but what did he do wrong?

Surely by allowing someone to fly a plane who shouldn’t have been flying said plane….

[Maesknoll Red]

1 hour ago, Andy082005 said:

Surely by allowing someone to fly a plane who shouldn’t have been flying said plane….

Doesn’t the pilot without the correct licences have some responsibility here.  Henderson might have asked him to do it, he didn’t have to.  Dual culpability surely?

[Chicken George]

1 hour ago, Andy082005 said:

Surely by allowing someone to fly a plane who shouldn’t have been flying said plane….

Amazing that the poster investigates murder!!  

9 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said:

Doesn’t the pilot without the correct licences have some responsibility here.  Henderson might have asked him to do it, he didn’t have to.  Dual culpability surely?

Yeah, but he’s dead so can’t appear in court! 

[Maesknoll Red]

2 minutes ago, Enter Sandman said:

Amazing that the poster investigates murder!!  

Yeah, but he’s dead so can’t appear in court! 

Can’t appear in court, but his actions were contributory, maybe more than the organiser, just like a murderer who then tops himself, is still a murderer.

[Andy082005]

18 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said:

Doesn’t the pilot without the correct licences have some responsibility here.  Henderson might have asked him to do it, he didn’t have to.  Dual culpability surely?

Of course. But ultimately the buck stops with the man at the top 

His business. His legal responsibility to ensure everything is above board and correct 

 

[BTRFTG]

Sala's agent doesn't come out smelling of roses either given he wanted the journeys completed at, what he then considered, all cost.

That's one of the mystery's in this case, why were the journeys so urgent and why wouldn't Sala accept the commercial route offered?

[Chicken George]

47 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said:

Can’t appear in court, but his actions were contributory, maybe more than the organiser, just like a murderer who then tops himself, is still a murderer.

But you seem to be suggesting the court find him guilty too. How can they prosecute and sentence a dead guy? 

[Lrrr]

1 hour ago, BTRFTG said:

Sala's agent doesn't come out smelling of roses either given he wanted the journeys completed at, what he then considered, all cost.

That's one of the mystery's in this case, why were the journeys so urgent and why wouldn't Sala accept the commercial route offered?

From memory wasn't it a case Sala wanted to stay and say goodbye to people/be at the last game before moving? which wouldn't fit with commercial flights

[redsquirrel]

surely the agent should have checked he was insured etc before telling him to get on with it.

[BTRFTG]

15 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

From memory wasn't it a case Sala wanted to stay and say goodbye to people/be at the last game before moving? which wouldn't fit with commercial flights

I think the story at the time was Sala didn't want to go via Paris & Heathrow, but given he was a nervous flyer and Cardiff (though they've behaved dispicably since the accident,) didn't have him on a three line whip to get back it seems odd that he'd risk the flight - NB he'd commented how concerned he was with the flight out.

[PHILINFRANCE]

1 hour ago, BTRFTG said:

Sala's agent doesn't come out smelling of roses either given he wanted the journeys completed at, what he then considered, all cost.

That's one of the mystery's in this case, why were the journeys so urgent and why wouldn't Sala accept the commercial route offered?

What remains a mystery to me is why Willie McKay and/or his son appear to have got off scot free.

[BTRFTG]

Just now, PHILINFRANCE said:

What remains a mystery to me is why Willie McKay and/or his son appear to have got off scot free.

I think that depends upon what evidence they have to suggest he committed a crime? Today's case appears to confirm the authorities think the individual procuring and offering the flight has ultimate responsibility for ensuring that service was legal and safe. Clearly that individual didn't think something might go wrong, such soliciting somebody to turn a blind eye to regulation where one doesn't anticipate harm, I'm not really sure what offence that might be?

[PHILINFRANCE]

2 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

I think that depends upon what evidence they have to suggest he committed a crime? Today's case appears to confirm the authorities think the individual procuring and offering the flight has ultimate responsibility for ensuring that service was legal and safe. Clearly that individual didn't think something might go wrong, such soliciting somebody to turn a blind eye to regulation where one doesn't anticipate harm, I'm not really sure what offence that might be?

Of course, but just as a yellow card is often given for a succesion of 'minor' offences, I was sort of hoping something similar might have happened with Mr McKay.

[BTRFTG]

4 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Of course, but just as a yellow card is often given for a succesion of 'minor' offences, I was sort of hoping something similar might have happened with Mr McKay.

I think the point you make may well get pushed given McKay's actions appear to indicate he considered Sala a Cardiff player (he was) and therefore Cardiff should have had him under their insurance (moot as it's unlikely to have covered trips not organised by the club, though a decent lawyer would push for Cardiff, under vicarious liability, to have actively forbidden their player to have taken unauthorized transport.)

[Maesknoll Red]

2 hours ago, Enter Sandman said:

But you seem to be suggesting the court find him guilty too. How can they prosecute and sentence a dead guy? 

Of course I’m not suggesting a courts can find him guilty, but if he knowingly flew a plane without a licence, he is guilty, it just can’t be nailed on him in court, being dead doesn’t absolve you of crimes, albeit it makes you  immune from prosecution.

[PHILINFRANCE]

29 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

I think the point you make may well get pushed given McKay's actions appear to indicate he considered Sala a Cardiff player (he was) and therefore Cardiff should have had him under their insurance (moot as it's unlikely to have covered trips not organised by the club, though a decent lawyer would push for Cardiff, under vicarious liability, to have actively forbidden their player to have taken unauthorized transport.)

I posted almost from the outset that I considered it inconceivable how it might be considered Sala was not a Cardiff player.

For goodness sake, Sala had signed a contract (subject to international clearance, I know), and the transfer was actually registered by FIFA.

Where I suspect (hope) McKay might be implicated is in the arrangements/organisation of the flight itself. As I recall, Cardiff were arguing that they had arranged a commercial flight, but Sala, presumably aided by McKay, decided to take the ill-fated private flight in order to say Goodbye to his teammates.

Henferson is due to be sentenced for both offences later this month, although I doubt we will hear much more now until after the coroner's inquest.

 

 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

I think the story at the time was Sala didn't want to go via Paris & Heathrow, but given he was a nervous flyer and Cardiff (though they've behaved dispicably since the accident,) didn't have him on a three line whip to get back it seems odd that he'd risk the flight - NB he'd commented how concerned he was with the flight out.

Bloody hell, as a nervous flyer myself with a storm in the channel think I would have opted for commercial flight.

Likely when promised a private jet his thoughts on what he would be travelling in were not the same as what greeted him at the airport. 

Edited November 13, 2021 by LoyalRed