Derby County

[redsapper]

8 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Definitely unfair on Wycombe, the innocent victims in all this.

Their players could be looking at leaving the club due to being in League 1 plus players their are looking to sign may not sign in league.

It also effects budget they would have to spend! 

With them having to redo accounts for previous seasons it may effect the budget they have to spend this season!

The EFL should grow some ball and put Derby down. 

[Davefevs]

39 minutes ago, TomF said:

But will they have enough time to do it.. and how is this fair on Wycombe who don't know what players to realistically sign..

It shouldn’t be a difficult thing to do, even if done manually into a standalone spreadsheet.

[Lord Northski]

Could Wycombe sue Derby?

[Bristol Rob]

I think the EFL are simply trying to look like they are taking this seriously and absolutely nothing will happen.

Derby will consider it 100k well spent as the TV revenue more than covers it, the league will make some noise about them having robust processes in place, and this time next season, there will be a similar story involving another club who aren't in too dissimilar a position.

 

[downendcity]

41 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

While Mel Morris is there, the EFL will pursue as tough a line as possible IMO. Things seem to have broken down significantly.

It's theoretically possible that a Restatement could see Derby fail multiple periods, by varying amounts. Even a 2 point deduction applied to the season just gone, would see them down still with multiple periods to reassess.

They haven’t managed that for the last 3 years, so I am sceptical that they will do so now or in the future.

It seems that everything being done is the metaphorical “kicking it into the long grass” . While , I’m sure the EFL will point to Derby being punished, we all know that a financial fine is designed to show the club being penalised while ensuring it falls short of a points deduction that would relegate them, as the EFL knows full well the absolute 5h1t storm that would create!

This has become less about Derby breaking the rules and more about the EFL’s impotence when it comes to policing, enforcing and administering appropriate punishment with and to clubs that break it’s own financial rules. 

I stand to be corrected and absolutely amazed if the EFL do now pull their fingers out and make a points deduction !!

[Bristol Rob]

2 minutes ago, Lord Northski said:

Could Wycombe sue Derby?

Doubt it.

Would guess that as Derby haven't 'wronged' Wycombe directly and they are just a byproduct of this carry-on, their best chance of success would be to go after the EFL, where loss of gate receipts, television money, 3rd round FA Cup cash and all that other stuff would form a calculation for compo.

Only a guess, mind. I don't know anything.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Derby have released a Statement.

https://www.dcfc.co.uk/news/2021/06/derby-county-club-statement-24th-june-2021

Not read it except elsewhere.

However, a key bit in there is that according to them, they have until 18th August to resubmit Accounts. In practical terms, it makes it highly likely that they will begin at this level IMO.

I would have thought though that the Embargo and EFL restrictions can remain in play, such strict ones that their Approval to renew Marriott was withdrawn.

They also give the usual spiel about unlawful to dock points in season just gone etc.

There is a nuclear option that maybe open to the EFL I guess. Suspend the fixtures of Derby and Wycombe while this is ongoing so that if resolved sometime in say September, both would definitively start on zero points for whatever League.

Would be grossly unfair though...to Wycombe. Would also cause fixture backlog and disruption across not one but two divisions.

[PHILINFRANCE]

32 minutes ago, Lord Northski said:

Could Wycombe sue Derby?

I'm not sure.

Perhaps they can ask Nick Higgs for some advice, as he has some experience of such matters.

[Mr Popodopolous]

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/37680-efl-verdict/page/14/?tab=comments#comment-2143888

Interesting post as well, though I don't think I can find a statement by Wycombe.

Another avenue mentioned there could be to push for a penalty under utmost good faith, a penalty applicable to Season just gone.

The Regulation in q I referred to above.

About theoretically suspending fixtures while Proceedings in play.

[One Team]

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Said it before, but one way I see it FWIW.

Derby can end the uncertainty by formally going on the record with a Statement to the effect of their Accounts being compliant to 2018 no matter what and proving it by cooperating swiftly with the Restated figures. If it doesn't exceed £39m, that is one issue solved.

A lack of swift cooperation and Statement regarding cast iron compliance makes me wonder what the case is there. They can drag it out if they want, but the Embargo and restrictions should certainly stay in place while this issue is ongoing.

Failing that, actually starting to think that the EFL should perhaps look at invoking that Regulation 28.2, to give them a bit of a hurry up- no Accounts, no fixtures while the issue drags- although that is unfeasible in real terms, given that Wycombe and fixture congestion are the other part of the equation.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Derby have come out swinging, by the looks- John Percy.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:8Otm-flUI7MJ:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/06/24/derby-vs-efl-bitter-feud-escalates-county-insist-cannot-relegated/&hl=en&gl=uk&strip=1&vwsrc=0

EFL may well appeal- and rightly so.

Interesting post from the Derby forum- wonder how much they know about their Auditors.

Bit of a rookie error for experienced Auditors- may or may not comply with the letter although clearly not if the EFL Verdict is a guide, but I do believe the Written Reasons suggested that there were no notes from meetings about Accounting Policy change, calculations- then again I do also consider the incompetence theory as one of the sources they were using was Transfermarkt! 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

Wayne Rooney’s Wycombe Wanderers???

[AnotherDerbyFan]

6 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The bit that I don't understand, is why if they're uber confident they pass FFP no matter what-Derby I mean- didn't they just resubmit in the EFL's preferred format nice and early to draw a line under it.

The fine and Reprimand is one thing, the Resubmission of Accounts in the EFL's preferred format is something else entirely.

Based on the EFL's Points Tariff, an overspend of any amount is worth a 3 point deduction, any amount that is between £1-1,999,999.

Of course, talking about the bigger picture, Derby will need to resubmit all Accounts from 2015/16 to I dunno, present to the EFL- even if only internally- using the preferred/prescribed format, this will impact upon FFP/P&S one way or another over many years. Some years will improve, some will get worse.

The ruling also perhaps means that nobody else can use this method for submitting Accounts.

Given the EFL's newfound determination to pursue cases against errant clubs, it's a great shame Aston Villa went up when they did.

Based on past precedent (SWFC), any potential points deduction would have to be reduced due to the time between when the penalty should have been applied (18/19) and the season it would eventually be applied (21/22).

SWFC had their 12 point penalty reduced by 6 for this reason, and we're now going to be 1 season further away...

[Mr Popodopolous]

30 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Based on past precedent (SWFC), any potential points deduction would have to be reduced due to the time between when the penalty should have been applied (18/19) and the season it would eventually be applied (21/22).

SWFC had their 12 point penalty reduced by 6 for this reason, and we're now going to be 1 season further away...

Don't know if that was the technical reasoning behind that case, but happy to re-read the Written Reasons- thought it was more like the EFL had partially approved matters or hadn't forbidden it.

This article appears to be free which could help, well it helped to remind me anyway. One interpretation in the article was that the Stadium Sale was a mitigating factor, which is nuts. Also mentioned excessively severe- yet a 2-3 points deduction applicable to 2020/21 wouldn't be in terms of number...3/2=1.5...rounded up=2.

https://theathletic.com/news/sheffield-wednesday-point-deduction-why/RQQWPE5H9k6N

What do you make the 3 year loss to 2018 anyway? Using a mix of your calcs both on the Amortisation and improvement in the Ince Profit, and the EFL Written Reasons I made it around £2.4m- granted it was a rushed calculation.

£2.4m from memory=4 pts, halve like SWFC=2 pts. Applicable to 2020/21.

One thing that might be getting overlooked by everyone as well, is that the Panel came to their decision on Friday 7th May 2021- was released on Tuesday 11th May 2021, but the decision was actually reached on 7th May- the day before the Regular Playing Season ended. IMO that could constitute grounds to stick a deduction in 2020/21, as it was just in time.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[hertsexile]

The EFL need to impose punishment now on Derby not hang around again it’s taken a few years of appeal after appeal there obviously is a case to answer. 
If a point deduction is imposed it needs to be for last season punishment to fit the irregularities as happened within Sheffield Wednesday! You cannot have one rule for one and different rule for another fair is fair 

Edited June 24, 2021 by hertsexile
Spelling

[Mr Popodopolous]

BBC Radio Derby actually have a special Phone In on it, listening online, could be interesting.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_radio_derby

Edited June 24, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Hxj]

3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Bit of a rookie error for experienced Auditors

No it's not.

Simply put DCFC misled the auditors.  Para 25 of the LAP decision says:

" ... because the explanations in the accounts did not reflect the treatment which the Club
contended, and the DC accepted, was in fact adopted, the DC found the charge proved
as to the fifth particular. Indeed, the erroneous explanation of the treatment in the accounts
mirrored that in the Draft Audit Findings Report of the auditors for each of the relevant
years, which were also incorrect and misleading."

and Para 86 goes on to say:

" ... the Club had misstated in each of the Accounts the treatment which had been adopted by the Club
in relation to amortisation. That seemed to us to raise questions as to how far the Club’s
auditors had fully understood the accounting treatment they were adopting and its basis."

 

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Hxj

[Mr Popodopolous]

17 minutes ago, Hxj said:

No it's not.

Simply put DCFC misled the auditors.  Para 25 of the LAP decision says:

" ... because the explanations in the accounts did not reflect the treatment which the Club
contended, and the DC accepted, was in fact adopted, the DC found the charge proved
as to the fifth particular. Indeed, the erroneous explanation of the treatment in the accounts
mirrored that in the Draft Audit Findings Report of the auditors for each of the relevant
years, which were also incorrect and misleading."

and Para 86 goes on to say:

" ... the Club had misstated in each of the Accounts the treatment which had been adopted by the Club
in relation to amortisation. That seemed to us to raise questions as to how far the Club’s
auditors had fully understood the accounting treatment they were adopting and its basis."

 

 

Thanks- maybe I imagined it then, regarding Derby and the Auditors being in agreement about the policy.

Okay I perhaps owe a bit of an apology to the Auditors then! Maybe they were mislead?

What's your thinking on the unlawful argument? Derby have claimed that a deduction in 2020/21 would be just that. It's an argument I'm unsure on.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Bristol Rob]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Wayne Rooney’s Wycombe Wanderers???

Welease Wodger!

[Southport Red]

8 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Welease Wodger!

2nd Life of Brian quote in here this week

[havanatopia]

Some may recall the malfeasance, or so it was labelled and prosecuted as, about 25-30 years ago; Arthur Andersen, and others, submitted accounts, possibly for Polly Peck. In front of the judge they pleaded ignorance to false accounting because, they said, we can only go on the document from the client. The Judge 'laughed' them out court saying they were, at best, complicit, and at worst directly involved in cooking books. After all, he said, how could you sign off a set of accounts that bore no resemblance to any that had been in the previous 5 tax years in which you represented the client; did you not once stop to ask them what is this?

Polly Peck no longer exists of course and AA closed its doors in the UK as Accountants, soon thereafter.

Unfortunately the Football League is like a timid cat compared to the roaring lion of the FInancial Conduct Authority.

Edited June 24, 2021 by havanatopia

[Hxj]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

What's your thinking on the unlawful argument? Derby have claimed that a deduction in 2020/21 would be just that. It's an argument I'm unsure on.

Round Objects.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Hxj said:

No it's not.

Simply put DCFC misled the auditors.  Para 25 of the LAP decision says:

" ... because the explanations in the accounts did not reflect the treatment which the Club
contended, and the DC accepted, was in fact adopted, the DC found the charge proved
as to the fifth particular. Indeed, the erroneous explanation of the treatment in the accounts
mirrored that in the Draft Audit Findings Report of the auditors for each of the relevant
years, which were also incorrect and misleading."

and Para 86 goes on to say:

" ... the Club had misstated in each of the Accounts the treatment which had been adopted by the Club
in relation to amortisation. That seemed to us to raise questions as to how far the Club’s
auditors had fully understood the accounting treatment they were adopting and its basis."

 

 

Wasn’t the auditor a life-long Derby fan (no issue with that per se) but with links to Morris?

[Hxj]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Wasn’t the auditor a life-long Derby fan (no issue with that per se) but with links to Morris?

More than likely on both counts - small firm - small town - big client - probably had his 'gut feeling' turned a little low - still reckon he was had.

[Hxj]

2 hours ago, havanatopia said:

Some may recall the malfeasance, or so it was labelled and prosecuted as, about 25-30 years ago; Arthur Andersen, and others, submitted accounts, possibly for Polly Peck. In front of the judge they pleaded ignorance to false accounting because, they said, we can only go on the document from the client. The Judge 'laughed' them out court saying they were, at best, complicit, and at worst directly involved in cooking books. After all, he said, how could you sign off a set of accounts that bore no resemblance to any that had been in the previous 5 tax years in which you represented the client; did you not once stop to ask them what is this?

Polly Peck no longer exists of course and AA closed its doors in the UK as Accountants, soon thereafter.

Unfortunately the Football League is like a timid cat compared to the roaring lion of the FInancial Conduct Authority.

Just to clarify the record - Andersen where found guilty of criminal offences in 2001 following Enron later the convictions were reversed by the Supreme Court.  Neither business now exists.

Polly Peck went bust in 1988 and their accountants were admonished by the regulator.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Saw an interesting Thread.

Wycombe have spoken!

Seems they're offering their assistance to EFL in their case, expect EFL to lodge appeal within a couple of days and are exploring a claim for compensation.

Go on Wycombe. Middlesbrough weren't allowed to intervene but given Stevenage got the right with Macclesfield, given Barnsley got the right to put their case with Wigan, maybe the fact it is a club affected by it and it's a live issue, as these 3 cases are whereas Middlesbrough were pushing a claim about an issue which occurred 2-3 years before.

The right to intervene may therefore differ.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[BetterRedthanBlue]

I definitely think Wycombe will be taking legal advice the fact of the matter is Derby have cheated and have benefited from it denying Wycombe a place in the league this year. 

The fact Derby don't have to submit amended accounts until the 18th August in which 2 league games would already be played you know for a fact they'll leave it to the last second. The EFL need to suspend the first 2 league games for both Derby and Wycombe or they shouldn't be given so long to resubmit the accounts.

[Mr Popodopolous]

It surely won't happen but...

Suspend the first month and expedite the Appeal Process, this could definitely help to cover bases- but that said should the recalculation take so long?? Of the Amortisation for 3 years I mean.

I still wonder if no Pay no Play...Strictly speaking that's not correct but basically no Fixtures until such time as Revised Accounts submitted to the Panel.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Harry]

6 hours ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Based on past precedent (SWFC), any potential points deduction would have to be reduced due to the time between when the penalty should have been applied (18/19) and the season it would eventually be applied (21/22).

SWFC had their 12 point penalty reduced by 6 for this reason, and we're now going to be 1 season further away...

I’m sure you are very proud 

[havanatopia]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Wasn’t the auditor a life-long Derby fan (no issue with that per se) but with links to Morris?

Well I beg to differ; if you were a clean owner you surely go out of town, well out of town, to recruit your auditor.

The fact Morris did not sums him up quite nicely. The egregious little ogre should be struck off for life from sitting on a board and should be drop kicked into the rough never to return to the beautiful game which he has so blatantly and flagrantly brought into disrepute. Shame on him and all involved. We are likely talking about criminal offences. I hope they all do time.

2 hours ago, Hxj said:

Just to clarify the record - Andersen where found guilty of criminal offences in 2001 following Enron later the convictions were reversed by the Supreme Court.  Neither business now exists.

Polly Peck went bust in 1988 and their accountants were admonished by the regulator.

I used PP as a mere example but thanks for digging around. I was of the view that AA Consulting was still going... No licence to do audits tho.

Edited June 24, 2021 by havanatopia

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, havanatopia said:

Well I beg to differ; if you were a clean owner you surely go out of town, well out of town, to recruit your auditor.

The fact Morris did not sums him up quite nicely. The egregious little ogre should be struck off for life from sitting on a board and should be drop kicked into the rough never to return to the beautiful game which he has so blatantly and flagrantly brought into disrepute. Shame on him and all involved. We are likely talking about criminal offences. I hope they all do time.

I used PP as a mere example but thanks for digging around. I was of the view that AA Consulting was still going... No licence to do audits tho.

Agreed Hav. Out of town auditors certainly feel the best bet in these scenarios. I could be getting my cases mixed up tbh but I do believe there were no notes documenting the discussion of this Amortisation policy, available for the Hearing last year.

The links between Andrew Delve and Mel Morris seem to go back years. Unsure how much I should post on a public forum even though it's all findable in the public domain.

Let's just say it's not a good look all this, surely.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57604421

Wow, Wycombe's owner has come out swinging!

Labels the actions of Derby as 'systematic cheating' and appears to be threatening a legal claim vs Derby for lost Revenue if indeed they (Wycombe) drop into League One.

Seems to argue that Revenue hit would be £10-15m though that feels overstated. More like £5-10m maybe?

He's American and a lawyer by trade so his actions don't surprise me!

[AnotherDerbyFan]

15 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Don't know if that was the technical reasoning behind that case, but happy to re-read the Written Reasons- thought it was more like the EFL had partially approved matters or hadn't forbidden it.

This article appears to be free which could help, well it helped to remind me anyway. One interpretation in the article was that the Stadium Sale was a mitigating factor, which is nuts. Also mentioned excessively severe- yet a 2-3 points deduction applicable to 2020/21 wouldn't be in terms of number...3/2=1.5...rounded up=2.

https://theathletic.com/news/sheffield-wednesday-point-deduction-why/RQQWPE5H9k6N

15 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

What do you make the 3 year loss to 2018 anyway? Using a mix of your calcs both on the Amortisation and improvement in the Ince Profit, and the EFL Written Reasons I made it around £2.4m- granted it was a rushed calculation.

£2.4m from memory=4 pts, halve like SWFC=2 pts. Applicable to 2020/21.

Just inside the limit.
Bizarrely, KM now believes we'll be safe too.

15 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

One thing that might be getting overlooked by everyone as well, is that the Panel came to their decision on Friday 7th May 2021- was released on Tuesday 11th May 2021, but the decision was actually reached on 7th May- the day before the Regular Playing Season ended. IMO that could constitute grounds to stick a deduction in 2020/21, as it was just in time.

I repeat... Past precedent means that will not happen

[AnotherDerbyFan]

14 hours ago, hertsexile said:

The EFL need to impose punishment now on Derby not hang around again it’s taken a few years of appeal after appeal there obviously is a case to answer. 
If a point deduction is imposed it needs to be for last season punishment to fit the irregularities as happened within Sheffield Wednesday! You cannot have one rule for one and different rule for another fair is fair 

Birmingham, Wednesday and Derby all charged for failing the 3 years to June 2018.

Birmingham received their penalty in 19/20, Weds in 20/21. 

Past precedent means any potential penalty doesn't have to be in the same season as Weds

[AnotherDerbyFan]

8 hours ago, Harry said:

I’m sure you are very proud 

I can hear those tears from 120 miles away

[Harry]

32 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

I can hear those tears from 120 miles away

Ha ha. Couldn’t give a shit to be honest pal. However, if it was my club, I’d be a bit more humble about it. 
In fact, I’d be happily calling my owners out on it. 
All these clubs who seem to be under investigation have a fan base in utter denial. The only fans I ever knew who were humble and acknowledged the wrongdoings of their owners were QPR. 
Get over yourself. 

[Malvern Red]

34 minutes ago, Harry said:

Ha ha. Couldn’t give a shit to be honest pal. However, if it was my club, I’d be a bit more humble about it. 
In fact, I’d be happily calling my owners out on it. 
All these clubs who seem to be under investigation have a fan base in utter denial. The only fans I ever knew who were humble and acknowledged the wrongdoings of their owners were QPR. 
Get over yourself. 

The Owls changed their attitude last season with very few using the points deduction as an excuse to bemoan their sad plight

Edited June 25, 2021 by Malvern Red

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Past precedent means that will not happen

I would think that having Derby & Wycombe's fixtures reported as being interchangeable , I'd say it could. 

[AnotherDerbyFan]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

Ha ha. Couldn’t give a shit to be honest pal. However, if it was my club, I’d be a bit more humble about it. 
In fact, I’d be happily calling my owners out on it. 
All these clubs who seem to be under investigation have a fan base in utter denial. The only fans I ever knew who were humble and acknowledged the wrongdoings of their owners were QPR. 
Get over yourself. 

I haven't been far wrong so far. I may have even stated it'll be a £100k fine months ago.
That somewhat shows my interpretation of events is more balanced than some on this forum demanding massive points deductions, instant relegation, members to be sacked off the EFL board, etc..

15 minutes ago, Marco the red said:

Why are you on this forum?

Because I enjoy most of the conversations with the likes of @Mr Popodopolous, even if we don't agree on a lot of stuff

4 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

I would think that having Derby & Wycombe's fixtures reported as being interchangeable , I'd say it could. 

Face saving from the EFL, based on the 0.0001% chance a deduction could be applied to 20/21.
If Derby play L1 football in 20/21 , I'll record a video of me eating Rooney's underwear and post it on here.

[Harry]

1 minute ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

I haven't been far wrong so far. I may have even stated it'll be a £100k fine months ago.
That somewhat shows my interpretation of events is more balanced than some on this forum demanding massive points deductions, instant relegation, members to be sacked off the EFL board, etc..

Do you genuinely believe that your club have been above board and within the rules? 
If your answer is Yes, you are blinded by your bias. 
If your answer is No, you really should be calling it out. 
Yet you seem to be happy, nay, even arrogant, about the whole situation. 

[054123]

44 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Face saving from the EFL, based on the 0.0001% chance a deduction could be applied to 20/21.
If Derby play L1 football in 20/21 , I'll record a video of me eating Rooney's underwear and post it on here.

Doesn't that make you sad?

Do you accept in any way that your club has done wrong and essentially cheated?

I think that’s the part I struggle with. I completely respect and accept your loyalty and decision to stand by your club, but you are still allowed to acknowledge that they’ve done wrong, tried to cheat and been caught out.

Do you also see how Derby not being punished appropriately just means it’s okay for everyone else to cheat in the same manner?

I just don’t get it.

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by 054123

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Just inside the limit.
Bizarrely, KM now believes we'll be safe too.

I repeat... Past precedent means that will not happen

It's not entirely like with like as the regular playing season had ended after the Verdict reached in the case of Sheffield Wednesday whereas 7th May us still just within the regular playing season. I'm pretty sure that the Sheffield Wednesday Verdict was 25th July or similar?

Had the EFL been looking at a 2-3 pts deduction, a win vs Sheffield Wednesday would still have sufficed- fairly tenuous I accept.

Kieran Maguire's figures seem to swing about which is confusing. I'm sure he mentioned something about £6m 3 year P&S loss on Twitter before his forecasted £30m swing in Amortisation. I have a feeling that he might have been using the Club Accounts in isolation with that calculation, whereas the EFL Written Reasons from last August show that 2016/17 and 2017/18 were the Consolidated Accounts, and there was a £6m swing in the 2015/16 loss too.

Possible of course that Derby are within but his figures seem to vary. What's the methodology for your compliance? Mine is EFL 3 years to 2018, plus the difference (as posted by you) between Club method of Amortisation for those years and Straight Line with Contract Extension, adding to the losses the difference between the two before reducing from the losses a £2m improvement in Profit on Ince which I think you mentioned a while back- which parts am I missing here?

Precedent argument is an interesting one. A problem there is that the cases and timelines differ vastly.

All 3 stand accused or were punished for breaching FFP in the 3 years to 2018...the two completed cases first.

Birmingham

Straight overspend, admission. Signing Pedersen didn't in fact see them punished which was odd but probably escalated matters ie public announcement of an Embargo and Business Plan.

Breach to June 30th 2018, charged early August 2018, punished in March 2019. Nice and neat though I still have a preference for in-season punishment based on the 3rd year Projections.

Sheffield Wednesday

Under Embargo from Summer 2018 to sometime in 2019, been in and out for 3 years and counting and believed that the Stadium Sale and leaseback had saved the day.

Charged in mid November 2019, then Secondary charges aimed at Chansiri, Meire and Redgate which along with Covid ironically took time out and if anything the EFL should have pursued the Personal Charges second if at all. They got relegated in the end but justice delayed etc. These Personal Charges were dropped in say Mid March 2020.

Verdict reached late July 2020, announced July 31st 2020.

Appeal lodged mid August 2020, final verdict by LAP was early November 2020.

Ongoing Derby case

*Charged mid January 2020.

*Verdict mid to late August 2020.

*EFL intention to Appeal first week or so September 2020.

*Stuff about Middlesbrough trying to get involved plus EFL trying to get 2019 factored in too, can't recall the dates but that adds to it all. December 2020 perhaps?

*EFL Appeal finally begun 20th March 2021.

*Verdict reached 7th May 2021, and announced 11th May 2021, ie the guilty bit.

These timelines all differ wildly so unsure how strong the precedent argument is, and besides both Derby and Sheffield Wednesday were charged in 2019/20, Sanction for the latter came in 2020/21, so with that in mind, should Derby's not also apply to 2020/21?

The other thing that surprises me is that given the sheer disregard for the Regulations your hierarchy appear to have, the position of Stephen Pearce on the EFL board is a joke. Get the Barnsley guy on.

[AnotherDerbyFan]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

Do you genuinely believe that your club have been above board and within the rules? 
If your answer is Yes, you are blinded by your bias. 
If your answer is No, you really should be calling it out. 
Yet you seem to be happy, nay, even arrogant, about the whole situation. 

I've simply argued my viewpoint, which is seemingly the same as the IDC's. Go through my previous posts and you'll see I'm not blinded by bias

1 hour ago, 054123 said:

Doesn't that make you sad?

Do you accept in any way that your club has done wrong and essentially cheated?

I think that’s the part I struggle with. I completely respect and accept your loyalty and decision to stand by your club, but you are still allowed to acknowledge that they’ve done wrong, tried to cheat and been caught out.

Do you also see how Derby not being punished appropriately just means it’s okay for everyone else to cheat in the same manner?

I just don’t get it.

 

Wrong? Yes. Cheated? No. Not unless the restated P&S figures show we exceeded the limits anyway.

I feel a fine is suitable for the punishment - improperly stating the amortisation policy in the accounts and using an improper amortisation policy. I don't agree with the verdict of the policy being invalid (just as the original IDC didn't either), but I do feel the punishment is suitable nonetheless. A points deduction wouldn't be suitable for that infraction, but would be for overspending.

31 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It's not entirely like with like as the regular playing season had ended after the Verdict reached in the case of Sheffield Wednesday whereas 7th May us still just within the regular playing season. I'm pretty sure that the Sheffield Wednesday Verdict was 25th July or similar?

Had the EFL been looking at a 2-3 pts deduction, a win vs Sheffield Wednesday would still have sufficed- fairly tenuous I accept.

Kieran Maguire's figures seem to swing about which is confusing. I'm sure he mentioned something about £6m 3 year P&S loss on Twitter before his forecasted £30m swing in Amortisation. I have a feeling that he might have been using the Club Accounts in isolation with that calculation, whereas the EFL Written Reasons from last August show that 2016/17 and 2017/18 were the Consolidated Accounts, and there was a £6m swing in the 2015/16 loss too.

Possible of course that Derby are within but his figures seem to vary. What's the methodology for your compliance? Mine is EFL 3 years to 2018, plus the difference (as posted by you) between Club method of Amortisation for those years and Straight Line with Contract Extension, adding to the losses the difference between the two before reducing from the losses a £2m improvement in Profit on Ince which I think you mentioned a while back- which parts am I missing here?

Precedent argument is an interesting one. A problem there is that the cases and timelines differ vastly.

All 3 stand accused or were punished for breaching FFP in the 3 years to 2018...the two completed cases first.

Birmingham

Straight overspend, admission. Signing Pedersen didn't in fact see them punished which was odd but probably escalated matters ie public announcement of an Embargo and Business Plan.

Breach to June 30th 2018, charged early August 2018, punished in March 2019. Nice and neat though I still have a preference for in-season punishment based on the 3rd year Projections.

Sheffield Wednesday

Under Embargo from Summer 2018 to sometime in 2019, been in and out for 3 years and counting and believed that the Stadium Sale and leaseback had saved the day.

Charged in mid November 2019, then Secondary charges aimed at Chansiri, Meire and Redgate which along with Covid ironically took time out and if anything the EFL should have pursued the Personal Charges second if at all. They got relegated in the end but justice delayed etc. These Personal Charges were dropped in say Mid March 2020.

Verdict reached late July 2020, announced July 31st 2020.

Appeal lodged mid August 2020, final verdict by LAP was early November 2020.

Ongoing Derby case

*Charged mid January 2020.

*Verdict mid to late August 2020.

*EFL intention to Appeal first week or so September 2020.

*Stuff about Middlesbrough trying to get involved plus EFL trying to get 2019 factored in too, can't recall the dates but that adds to it all. December 2020 perhaps?

*EFL Appeal finally begun 20th March 2021.

*Verdict reached 7th May 2021, and announced 11th May 2021, ie the guilty bit.

These timelines all differ wildly so unsure how strong the precedent argument is, and besides both Derby and Sheffield Wednesday were charged in 2019/20, Sanction for the latter came in 2020/21, so with that in mind, should Derby's not also apply to 2020/21?

The other thing that surprises me is that given the sheer disregard for the Regulations your hierarchy appear to have, the position of Stephen Pearce on the EFL board is a joke. Get the Barnsley guy on.

Where have you seen the date for DCFC verdict? Neither the EFL or DCFC mentioned a date in their statements.

Precedent is valid regardless of timelines to reach the point of having a verdict. The precedent is not having enough time to 'right the wrongs' off the pitch on it. SWFC started the season with a points penalty, whereas DCFC haven't had one at all, so it can't be a case of applying the penalty for both in the same season.

You've only used the difference in Ince, whereas there's also Russell, Dawkins, Albentosa, Christie, Shotton and Weimann

Edited June 25, 2021 by AnotherDerbyFan

[Harry]

15 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

I've simply argued my viewpoint, which is seemingly the same as the IDC's. Go through my previous posts and you'll see I'm not blinded by bias

Honestly can’t be arsed to go back through your previous posts - the whole situation bores me. 
It’d just be nice if you and your other fans could categorically state that your club has done wrong and to not defend it. 
 

I couldn’t care whether you get a £1 fine or a 75 point deduction. Just admit your club have broken the rules. 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Harry

[RedRoss]

They clearly have broken the rules and because of sluggish bureaucracy and EFL incompetence they won't be relegated in time in my opinion. There is a collective denial from Derby fans because of the tribal nature of football. It this was our club it would be the same with the personal connection with our club and the bias that comes with that so I don't blame them.

[Harry]

1 minute ago, RedRoss said:

They clearly have broken the rules and because of sluggish bureaucracy and EFL incompetence they won't be relegated in time in my opinion. There is a collective denial from Derby fans because of the tribal nature of football. It this was our club it would be the same with the personal connection with our club and the bias that comes with that so I don't blame them.

I disagree. If it was us I’d be calling for us to hold our hands up. 

[RedRoss]

Just now, Harry said:

I disagree. If it was us I’d be calling for us to hold our hands up. 

Fair enough, I just think you'd be in the minority by holding your hands up.

[Harry]

7 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

Fair enough, I just think you'd be in the minority by holding your hands up.

Again. I disagree. If a handful of fans start calling it out, others will follow. 

[RobArnold10]

14 minutes ago, Harry said:

Again. I disagree. If a handful of fans start calling it out, others will follow. 

Agree to this, I won’t sit here and blow smoke up our own backsides, but I think there’s enough people who went through 82 (like my old man) to not want to play this sort of thing out. Let’s be honest, we are lucky in a number of ways when it comes to ownership stability and I suspect we all (myself included) has gone “why can’t SL just gamble one season and cheat the system like QPR or Wolves or Villa” but would that really make us happy? And there’s no promise that it pays off. 

Of course some fans would rather success at all costs. Of course some fans would blindly back the club even if they were in the wrong, either out of faith or borderline trolling, but I think because of where we’ve been we’d have a better proportion of fans kicking off if we pulled this sort of thing.

[Mr Popodopolous]

52 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

I've simply argued my viewpoint, which is seemingly the same as the IDC's. Go through my previous posts and you'll see I'm not blinded by bias

Wrong? Yes. Cheated? No. Not unless the restated P&S figures show we exceeded the limits anyway.

I feel a fine is suitable for the punishment - improperly stating the amortisation policy in the accounts and using an improper amortisation policy. I don't agree with the verdict of the policy being invalid (just as the original IDC didn't either), but I do feel the punishment is suitable nonetheless. A points deduction wouldn't be suitable for that infraction, but would be for overspending.

Where have you seen the date for DCFC verdict? Neither the EFL or DCFC mentioned a date in their statements.

Precedent is valid regardless of timelines to reach the point of having a verdict. The precedent is not having enough time to 'right the wrongs' off the pitch on it. SWFC started the season with a points penalty, whereas DCFC haven't had one at all, so it can't be a case of applying the penalty for both in the same season.

You've only used the difference in Ince, whereas there's also Russell, Dawkins, Albentosa, Christie, Shotton and Weimann

Nixon said it was Friday 7th May 2021.  Last page of the Written Reasons for that Appeal seem to be dated Friday 7th May 2021. Page 59, the very bottom- the date is there.

https://www.efl.com/contentassets/873a8914e09740d3b3a8848131ea10b8/efl-v-derby-county---appeal-decision.pdf

I seem to recall John Percy also claimed he knew, prior to the end of the season but that legal action was threatened if published.

Not surprised if true, I must say- although the devil is in the detail a bit there, was it just Derby or could it have been the EFL or perhaps even both parties who threatened legal action if published?

Okay let's see...Weimann was in 2018/19 was he not? July 3rd=2018/19, Reporting Period runs until June 30th.

Dawkins as per Transfermarkt joined for £518k in Jan 2014 under straight line method, and was sold for an undisclosed amount 2 years later- there was a pretty negligible Profit on Disposal.

Russell as per Transfermarkt joined July 2013- under Straight Line- for £790k and left at end of Jan under Derby method for £252k. Pretty neglibible again.

As per Transfermarkt, Albenosta was in the final year of contract- pure Profit, cost saving- maybe a small improvement there?

How much Shotton joined for is unclear, again as per Transfermarkt, his outbound fee wasn't huge so a saving but much of one?

Christie joined Derby for £100k as per Transfermarkt so that's surely near enough full Profit.

Does it swing it back by £2m in total or however much the gap was? Debatable. To me, even a single pound over would be worthy of a deduction as per the tariff.

[Mr Popodopolous]

PMSL, take a look at these daft idea!!

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/37695-sports-minister-emails/

@Hxj @Davefevs @havanatopia

The deludamol is strong among some that forum??

Haha, bullying- Wow!

High Court? Don't think that it sits well with your Terms of Membership! 'Membership of the League shall constitute' etc...

Perhaps we and likeminded fans of other clubs should email Crouch and our MPs to praise the EFL here, for finally getting round to a determination with respect to enforcing the Regulations in the correct manner. They should ask fans of compliant Clubs when it comes to the Football Governance Review Body- the Regulations are too lax if anything.

Destruction of a Club? Behave- teams go up, teams go down!

Bullying? 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[REDOXO]

Derby County’s owners having been cheating their supporters for years. Dodgy promises built on dodgy books is the stock in trade. Nevertheless supporters post on multiple forums defending their basket case club rather than do something that will change what is happening in their boardroom and restore sanity  

 

Personally I could not careless what Division Derby are in as it will just add to the entertainment value either way. 

No wonder no one wants to buy them the value sinks on a daily basis! 

 

[downendcity]

4 hours ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Face saving from the EFL, based on the 0.0001% chance a deduction could be applied to 20/21.
If Derby play L1 football in 20/21 , I'll record a video of me eating Rooney's underwear and post it on here.

Wayne or Coleen’s?

Edited June 25, 2021 by downendcity

[Mr Popodopolous]

Another comical take.

It's "Bullies" btw- pah!

All that "Mel has EFL on strings" crap- we remember, also a thread from April 2019 when there was more mirth than concern in respect of reports about a Soft Embargo.

Another interesting take though...that's for sure.

Litigation against the EFL and possibly other clubs- well if you want to breach your terms of Membership, give it a go.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

24 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Wayne or Coleen’s?

Granny pants. 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Interesting to read a few posts about this thread on DCFCFans.

Firstly PearlRam, I can't take full credit for that rule you cited from here. No, the original place I saw it was a Twitter user named Derby5hire. Is it feasible? Who knows. Is it a fairish solution? Maybe.

Second bit to a poster whose name escapes me, criticism of us, saying and other fans should listen to the Kieran Maguire pod is ******* rich.

Good though it was, some of your fans really don't have a clue. You still think you're the victims, the EFL have a vendetta. The Sports Minister thread is priceless, my god.

Drag your heels to 18th August with Accounts if you wish, chances are the Embargo will remain rolling on until then.

EFL and takeover shouldn't give clubs leeway either. Read the thread some of your hard of thinking fans, you might understand how hated your club ownership is.

[daored]

5 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Another comical take.

It's "Bullies" btw- pah!

All that "Mel has EFL on strings" crap- we remember, also a thread from April 2019 when there was more mirth than concern in respect of reports about a Soft Embargo.

Another interesting take though...that's for sure.

Litigation against the EFL and possibly other clubs- well if you want to breach your terms of Membership, give it a go.

I suspect Mel will accept an out of court settlement of his value  of the ground 

[havanatopia]

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/derby-county-fixtures-wycombe-efl-5567991

If you scroll down a fair way they talk about the 'appetising' fixtures for Wycombe next year in league 1.

The arrogance of this paper appears to know no bounds. It is a condescending piece of drivel. The journalist needs reporting for a disgraceful put down of a fellow football club.

If I was editor i would be demanding a full retraction followed by a direct apology to Wycombe.

Every week that goes by and they add fuel to the fire. By now they must be the most hated club in the land. No mean feat that. 

[Monkeh]

18 hours ago, Harry said:

Again. I disagree. If a handful of fans start calling it out, others will follow. 

We called it out when using dodgy agents 5 or 6 years ago

[Mr Popodopolous]

I'm as big a critic of Derby as anyone but that seems merely to be a cut and paste job from the Wycombe website.

https://www.wycombewanderers.co.uk/news/2021/june/202122fixturesrevealed/

The journo in question though, he's quite tame it seems, as in little critique or criticism or firm analysis to be found of Derby and their off the pitch ways.

As for Derby, the Regulation 28.2 I cited on here before, just to be clear for anyone reading from your forum, I wonder if it could be used as leverage in order to bring the Accounts out in a better timeframe.

Compressed version: "Quicker you bring Accounts amended to our specs to the table, quicker it can be resolved (to 2018), quicker you can begin the season, albeit unsure which Division".

[downendcity]

21 hours ago, Harry said:

I disagree. If it was us I’d be calling for us to hold our hands up. 

If it was us you wouldn't need to hold your hands up - Steve Lansdown would have done so well before that!

Therein lies the root of the problem.  SL, in common with the majority of owners/chairmen/chairwomen looks at the rules and takes the appropriate steps to ensure their club stays within those rules. Owners like Morris look at the same set of rules  rules and look for ways around them or, if they should fall foul of them, how they can wriggle out of liability. 

 

 

[exAtyeoMax]

Wycombe owner accuses Derby of 'systematic cheating'
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57604421

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by exAtyeoMax

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 hours ago, daored said:

I suspect Mel will accept an out of court settlement of his value  of the ground 

Unsure what you mean here?

As for litigation, in short if you as a Club sue your Governing body as some appear to be suggesting, then as far as I'm concerned they have no right to participate in the League.

The fact that Clubs have to Agree to Arbitrate in writing as part of their membership makes me hopeful that this is the case.

[Mr Popodopolous]

On a side note, in addition to the Sports Minister, they're talking of lobbying Derbyshire MPs.

Maybe it's a small subsection based on a forum but it's not just the ownership @downendcity the cult (albeit possibly extrapolating unfairly) has deep roots!

[daored]

7 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Unsure what you mean here?

As for litigation, in short if you as a Club sue your Governing body as some appear to be suggesting, then as far as I'm concerned they have no right to participate in the League.

The fact that Clubs have to Agree to Arbitrate in writing as part of their membership makes me hopeful that this is the case.

Tongue in check comment , that Mel will probably want to sell the ground to the EFL to cover the cost of the fine !

[Mr Popodopolous]

May as well post a bit more, seems I missed out some key details.

"Consultation with and consideration of representations from the Clubs involved".

Now, might be comparing Apples and Pears here but I suspect Bury would have  vehemently objected to their Games being suspended for the first month. Poor old Bury but didn't seem to make a difference with the EFL.

Afternoon @Hxj- what's the feasibility of this in your view, could the EFL suspend Derby's fixtures or is it up to the Clubs in q? Granted this isn't a Bury type situation but I do wonder if everyone (Derby aside) wouldn't just be better off if the EFL withdrew Derby's golden share, that would also see off Mel Morris and Stephen Pearce- can't be an EFL Divisional Rep if you haven't got a Club to represent.  

Edited June 26, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[havanatopia]

I am sure it has been discussed; it seems to me an utterly illogical statement for the FL to 'request a re-submission of 2016, 17, and 18 accounts' and somehow word it for us to all be gullible pups and accept that it will be complete before or perhaps up to a month after the season begins. 

First of all there is no prior evidence to suggest Morris will comply and even if he does nothing to expect anything other than a long delay by design. 

Companies House and HMRC no doubt will be waiting in the wings as well. Perhaps they have both been presented with a dossier with overwhelmingly damning evidence. HMRC would have the teeth to wind Derby up. What the toothless FL cannot do they quietly pass the buck for her majesties pleasure.

If you think about it this does not sound implausible by mere token that the request for the accounts vis a vis a minor delay to the campaign is, ie utterly implausible. Everybody knows it is. 

What the point of a pitifully low 100k fine is all about i really don't know but maybe it is part of the bigger picture to come, ticks a box for FL and takes us a step closer to dropping the axe on Derby, the once proud football club now reduced to a pathetic little rump by a criminal. Their fans must hate his guts.

Edited June 26, 2021 by havanatopia

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, havanatopia said:

I am sure it has been discussed; it seems to me an utterly illogical statement for the FL to 'request a re-submission of 2016, 17, and 18 accounts' and somehow word it for us to all be gullible pups and accept that it will be complete before or perhaps up to a month after the season begins. 

First of all there is no prior evidence to suggest Morris will comply and even if he does nothing to expect anything other than a long delay by design. 

Companies House and HMRC no doubt will be waiting in the wings as well. Perhaps they have both been presented with a dossier with overwhelmingly damning evidence. HMRC would have the teeth to wind Derby up. What the toothless FL cannot do they quietly pass the buck for her majesties pleasure.

If you think about it this does not sound implausible by mere token that the request for the accounts vis a vis a minor delay to the campaign is, ie utterly implausible. Everybody knows it is. 

What the point of a pitifully low 100k fine is all about i really don't know but maybe it is part of the bigger picture to come, ticks a box for FL and takes us a step closer to dropping the axe on Derby, the once proud football club now reduced to a pathetic little rump by a criminal. Their fans must hate his guts.

Seemingly not, still see themselves as great victims. Based on their forum they seem to see the EFL as the baddies here.

Indeed, one has claimed that Andrew Bridgen MP (a gobshite from memory) has intimated he will raise the issue with the EFL!?

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/37695-sports-minister-emails/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-2145499

I don't see, are there grounds for winding up- nice thought but I am wondering.

The rest of your post- I wonder, yes Morris will stall and no doubt stall- but of course the Embargo remains in play for as long as this takes. Interesting to see what would happen were Derby to miss the deadline of 18th August...

I wonder about the HMRC bit- I'm not getting my hopes up there, the request for the Accounts in the timeframe needed could be implausible but if all that needed amending was the Amortisation and a few player sales, that can be done relatively quickly.

What right has Mr. Bridgen got to get involved however? Is he on the Sports Select Committee, is he an MP for Derbyshire? Definitely not in the case of the 2nd and no idea on the 1st.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Well run out of time to edit that post, but Hav you say Derby fans must hate Mel Morris...this little snippet, wow.

Still defending to the hilt, well not Spanish but RoyMac5, Indy to some extent and perhaps richinspain.

At least Pearl Ram has criticised Mel Morris and Pearce elsewhere on the forum in terms of bad stewardship IIRC, but it's fairly incredible the victimhood of some of their fans. Words starting to fail me a little.

Disclaimer: I'm willing to accept that it's a minority of course.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous