Derby County

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 04/07/2021 at 01:17, Hxj said:

Apologies, but I simply don't agree with the criticism of the EFL on this. 

The issue always was about FFP and the charges brought in respect of the amortisation were always secondary on the path of did they breach FFP?

If DCFC have not breached FFP then there is no further offence, if they have the charges will run again.

In the meantime, DCFC have an owner who wants to get rid, and no one who wants to buy, plus they are either on a soft embargo (buy players at a wage of less than £600,000 a year), or a hard one (buy no one).  To date no one has come in and a significant part of their squad has left. Currently looking very much like a favourite for relegation.

 

 

Agreed, although it's worth noting of course that the 3 years to 2018 have a knockon effect to those that come after- better and worse but a knock on and arguably before if we're talking the 3 years to 2017.

What's your thinking on Pearce's claim that Pride Park sale has an additional Profit, perhaps a significant one?

I do believe that the EFL wanted Derby down in this case though- and justifiably so.

18 hours ago, havanatopia said:

The criticism of the FL is on many subjects and on many levels. In the event you are carte blanche dismissing them all then you will find very few agreeing with you.

On public relations and swiftness of action alone they have been utterly useless. That is enough. 

As a direct result as I said before they bring the rules of the game into disrepute. They are a busted flush and need replacing.

You really don't need to go into the minutae; if you act like there is plenty of time, as they clearly have, you will eventually run out of it and then scratch your heads and blame somebody else which is exactly what they have done. 

Agree, by no means beyond criticism. My significant criticism is two fold- 1) The fact they did not do work of a sufficient standard and quality in 2018 to prevent some of this nonsense and b) The sheer timescale it takes. That said, these are old cases they are attempting to unpick, it's difficult! Some unbelievable aspects from the 1st Hearing in 2020...

Valuation flexing

In short, there were two valuations- one with DRC, and one with the Profit methods and the EFL permitted both for FFP/P&S purposes. ie the 3 years to 2017/18 with the Lower one, but allowed the Club to leave open the option to uplift to Profit Method in 2018/19.

Profit method feels less common in football and less reliable as Profits fluctuate- DRC is more steady.

Would argue for these purposes and possibly from a stability POV that DRC is more applicable but no...well yes and then no.

At least the Rent is clear-cut surely- the Independent Valuers- not the EFL and Derby but the Independent Valuers themselves, ie JLL, allocated the Rent as £4.16m per year for both methods I assume but anyway- good starting point! £4.16m is around 5-6%, maybe slightly higher as a % than some of the others but broadly in line.

Well, no!

£3.06m per Annum knocked off the rent due to the 100 days claim...

More flexing...

The 100 days usage? "No restriction on the number of days for which the Club would have access to Pride Park for football purposes". The EFL should have acted very differently as soon as that bit came to light.

Despite...

Independent Valuers here, though I question the valuation the rent seems fine- in black and white, market rent=£4.16m per year on the basis of a sale and leaseback agreement. Maybe it would be lopped down a bit if it was the DRC basis. £3.81m if extrapolated- but also means a lower Profit on Disposal for FFP.

Cake and eat it springs to mind?? On a few levels! WTF were the EFL thinking- and then there's the whole allowing Sheffield Wednesday to sell Hillsborough as and when they pleased and seemingly lifting aspects of that Soft Embargo in August 2018. They should've been charged in August 2018 once it became obvious that the Stadium was not sold in time, then the EFL should have imposed some kind of Business Plan for 2018/19 and perhaps beyond, while pushing for the full whack of 12 pts for breach and 3 for progressively bigger overspending. While Derby and Aston Villa...well the EFL under their Regulations didn't technically have to allow them to spend as they did in 2018/19 even with the loopholes, Soft Sanctions short of a deduction can be imposed to restrict and set right, depending on the size of the prior loss- Aston Villa and Sheffield Wednesday definitely would have qualified. Maybe Future Financial Info can help with this too.

12 hours ago, Loco Rojo said:

What this says to me is clubs can now knowingly break the rules for £100k but they don't need too worry about points deduction or relegation. Precedence has been set now. 

Nope, that is only one aspect of the Process- they remain under some kind of Embargo and have a deadline of 18th August 2021 to Restate Accounts to the EFL. If it shows a breach, any breach then fresh Charges should follow- and this in turn has a knock on in 3 years to 2019, and arguably working back to 2017?

Edited July 5, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Forgot to add, one reason for this delayed process and two valuations is that Derby seemingly wanted a quick conclusion before the Summer Window opened or at least not long into it, in order to 'net off' the process. Is that understandable? Absolutely, from the perspective of a Club. What is less excusable and understandable is why the EFL (dog) was allowing itself to be wagged by the tail (Derby). Tail wagging the dog- if it takes time, it takes time- if Derby want to justify the higher valuation then they have to do so at the time, if it eats into the Window it's not really a concern for the EFL- far better to get the process correct, not that I'm convinced that they did, at the time than it still to be rolling on some time later due to a rushed or botched job.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Jerseybean]

What a mess! https://talksport.com/football/efl/905728/efl-derby-liverpool-jordon-ibe/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=talksportfacebook&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR2_dOCT_yuGTkHgsU2xtFwMVWkPZdW28UvimAtDmFVxpOLTuBl2RG4-ZKA#Echobox=1625245543
 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Davies and Wisdom too, subject to wage limits, what they can agree and the like? Their contracts technically up but could renew terms still...

[Mr Popodopolous]

I also must add, that if this is broadly accurate it's not quite a Soft Embargo...

I assumed it was just no Transfer Fees, no Wages above £x.

@Hxj you might have an idea, is this more of a P&S related Embargo ie maybe to June 2021 or is it more related to other matters- or perhaps the Disciplinary Process itself.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Hxj]

7 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

@Hxj you might have an idea, is this more of a P&S related Embargo ie maybe to June 2021 or is it more related to other matters- or perhaps the Disciplinary Process itself.

Sounds like a hard embargo to me, could be just as promised by the EFL for all clubs where the 2020 accounts and disclosure not agreed by the end of June.

[AnotherDerbyFan]

14 hours ago, Jerseybean said:

What a mess! https://talksport.com/football/efl/905728/efl-derby-liverpool-jordon-ibe/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=talksportfacebook&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR2_dOCT_yuGTkHgsU2xtFwMVWkPZdW28UvimAtDmFVxpOLTuBl2RG4-ZKA#Echobox=1625245543
 

13 'senior' players, but 17 who were regulars in the matchday squad towards the end of last season - 2 of those were in at least 50% of the squads throughout the season. 18 when Davies signs a new deal. It's not too concerning at this point, with a month before the season starts.

 

13 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I also must add, that if this is broadly accurate it's not quite a Soft Embargo...

I assumed it was just no Transfer Fees, no Wages above £x.

@Hxj you might have an idea, is this more of a P&S related Embargo ie maybe to June 2021 or is it more related to other matters- or perhaps the Disciplinary Process itself.

This too sounds odd. First time anyone has suggested a soft embargo means you can't extend contracts. My guess would be him looking at the Marriott situation and concluded 2+2=5

No transfer/loan/agents fees were well known restrictions, so too was the wage cap.

[downendcity]

27 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

...... and concluded 2+2=5

Are you Derby’s accountant?  

 

[Never to the dark side]

https://thisisfutbol.com/2021/07/blogs/championship/derby-county/derby-county-football-finance-expert-gives-derby-county-update/

[Mr Popodopolous]

The way that was written only partially gives the story.

What that piece didn't mention- but many who read this thread often will of course know- is that the Restatement of the Accounts is due by August 18th. These will also have a knock on effect to 2019 and beyond- some improvements, some declines but they will have a knock on- perhaps even working back to 2017 though nobody has referenced it at all outside of thread speculation on here and the Derby forum but if you did work back, I suspect Derby with a reworked ie Straight Line method might fail as it predated the Stadium Sale- ie 3 years from 2014/15 to 2016/17 but reworked Accounts would certainly impact upon this period.

Kieran Maguire also unless again it's merely taking a bit of a snippet of headline grabbing info, that the EFL likely wouldn't accept a further proposed method that is neither Derby's or Straight Line, could see that ending in dispute...

...Same goes for suggestions that up to £30m could be added to the Pride Park sale- not a chance the EFL roll over and accept IMO. They have come this far, they are likely under some pressure from Clubs- indeed we know Clubs are or have been becoming more hawkish in the approach to Financial 'Crimes' how can they just step back and ease it down?

Edited July 9, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[downendcity]

39 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The way that was written only partially gives the story.

What that piece didn't mention- but many who read this thread often will of course know- is that the Restatement of the Accounts is due by August 18th. These will also have a knock on effect to 2019 and beyond- some improvements, some declines but they will have a knock on- perhaps even working back to 2017 though nobody has referenced it at all outside of thread speculation on here and the Derby forum but if you did work back, I suspect Derby with a reworked ie Straight Line method might fail as it predated the Stadium Sale- ie 3 years from 2014/15 to 2016/17 but reworked Accounts would certainly impact upon this period.

Kieran Maguire also unless again it's merely taking a bit of a snippet of headline grabbing info, that the EFL likely wouldn't accept a further proposed method that is neither Derby's or Straight Line, could see that ending in dispute...

...Same goes for suggestions that up to £30m could be added to the Pride Park sale- not a chance the EFL roll over and accept IMO. They have come this far, they are likely under some pressure from Clubs- indeed we know Clubs are or have been becoming more hawkish in the approach to Financial 'Crimes' how can they just step back and ease it down?

Have they put up a kitchen extension, loft conversion, built a car port and landscaped the garden?

[Mr Popodopolous]

17 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Have they put up a kitchen extension, loft conversion, built a car port and landscaped the garden?

Surely put up something alright...

Might not be the case that they are claiming an extra whack, more that the Book Value was lower- ie Sale Proceeds-Historicish Book Value=Profit or Loss on Disposal.

I just wonder how it translates in reality though, given that:

1. It was included on the Balance Sheet by the time of the 'Sale' and Leaseback.
2. When Transferred- we're going on Kieran Maguire's post last week- it went from Revaluation Reserve to Profit and Loss Reserves/Retained Earnings. However surely you cannot just cherry pick one aspect of that Retained Earnings/cumulative P&L- because even after and including that Reserves Transfer, it was around £44m in the Red- if they wish to suggest that they carry that whole one to Profit and Loss, be my guest.  This was in 2017/18, and will have only deteriorated since then all things being equal...
3. Accounting Policy at time of Sale was Sale Price-Carrying Value=Profit or Loss on Disposal- see Point One, the cumulative rise in that valuation post 2007 included it, hence the rise to £55m in those 2007/08 Accounts.
4. Even if accepted for Accounting, would the EFL accept for FFP given that a) This appears to be something new introduced/being proposed long after those Audited Accounts were made up to and signed off. b) There is no Provision in the FFP Regs for such a Transaction to bolster the figures in this way. c) There is no Provision in the FFP Regs for Reserves Transfers.
5. Nothing in Sevco 5112 Limited Accounts- the consolidated ones used for FFP in 2016/17 and 2017/18- about Revaluation Reserve, Club only- EFL would surely raise that issue.

There are definitely holes to pick in their proposal if it's as Kieran Maguire implies, therefore I'm quite hopeful that the EFL would be all over it well and truly.

Edited July 10, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Plus hey, if I'm wrong and it's all watertight then rattle out those amended Accounts, to the EFL and then once finalised but fairly quick after, to CH and prove the innocence..not only to 2018 but beyond!

Edited July 10, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

PPS, a few might be interested in this post.

I am sure it won't happen but Derby you might recall fielded a Youth Team or not far off at Chorley in the FA Cup in January due to Covid...

...Technically, one game could mean Professional Standing- a lot of those in that game have not played for Derby before or after! Wonder if the EFL could impose this restriction while the issues remain live.

[Never to the dark side]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57785793

[Mr Popodopolous]

Already covered in a bit of depth on the FFP thread.

That last line is misleading anyway, it wasn't that the EFL chose not to dock Derby points for the prior season, it's that the Independent Panel didn't think it appropriate in this case.

The EFL chose not to appeal as their lawyers apparently told them they had little chance of success with that bit of the charge.

Edited July 10, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[havanatopia]

Well, Parry is turning out to be an unmitigated disaster. I estimate there will be plenty more teams breaking similar rules this season knowing full well the little slap on the wrist will be so slight they will barely feel it.

There needs to be a revolution.

[Hxj]

4 hours ago, havanatopia said:

Well, Parry is turning out to be an unmitigated disaster.

I think that he has been incredibly successful at tightening up the rules, increasing transparency and keeping the majority of clubs onside.  

[havanatopia]

3 minutes ago, Hxj said:

I think that he has been incredibly successful at tightening up the rules, increasing transparency and keeping the majority of clubs onside.  

I agree to his smoochie talents on the last bit alright. In time they'll see through his salesmanship if not already just biding their time.

As for the first bit... Tightening rules? What rules? And if we assume there are some, actually fit for purpose, using them would be a good start. 

[AnotherDerbyFan]

On 10/07/2021 at 01:53, Mr Popodopolous said:

PPS, a few might be interested in this post.

I am sure it won't happen but Derby you might recall fielded a Youth Team or not far off at Chorley in the FA Cup in January due to Covid...

...Technically, one game could mean Professional Standing- a lot of those in that game have not played for Derby before or after! Wonder if the EFL could impose this restriction while the issues remain live.

Technically 27 but the rest still stands.

Marshall, Roos, Byrne, Ebosele, McDonald, Buchanan, Forsyth, JBrown, Bielik, Shinnie, Bird, Knight, Sibley, Watson, Lawrence, Jozwiak, Kazim, Stretton and Hutchinson have all played first team games (Hutchinson only in L1 and L2)

Bardell, Williams, Solomon, LThompson, Aghatise, Ibrahim, Duncan and Cybulski played in the Chorley game.

 

The confusing but is further down on the EFL's embargo page.

 

Given we've been told we can't sign anyone yet, the 'professional standing' rule applies as the 'established player' rule would only include 10 current players (Marshall, Roos, Byrne, Forsyth, Bielik, Shinnie, Hutchinson, Lawrence, Jozwiak, Kazim)

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Technically 27 but the rest still stands.

Marshall, Roos, Byrne, Ebosele, McDonald, Buchanan, Forsyth, JBrown, Bielik, Shinnie, Bird, Knight, Sibley, Watson, Lawrence, Jozwiak, Kazim, Stretton and Hutchinson have all played first team games (Hutchinson only in L1 and L2)

Bardell, Williams, Solomon, LThompson, Aghatise, Ibrahim, Duncan and Cybulski played in the Chorley game.

 

The confusing but is further down on the EFL's embargo page.

 

Given we've been told we can't sign anyone yet, the 'professional standing' rule applies as the 'established player' rule would only include 10 current players (Marshall, Roos, Byrne, Forsyth, Bielik, Shinnie, Hutchinson, Lawrence, Jozwiak, Kazim)

I can only guess that the distinction in rules for “Professional Standing” and “established player” is down to the embargo reason.  Looks like you can be under Registration Embargo for reasons other than P&S.  Derby themselves have 5 counts against them, one of which is P&S.  Perhaps if Derby’s only issue was P&S, the established player rule might be applicable….but as we see, Derby have 4 other issues.  That’s the only thing I can come up with.

Derby County

Regulation 16.2 - Failure to provide audited annual accounts

Regulation 16.3 - Annual Accounts not filed with Companies House

Regulation 17 - Default in payments to HMRC

Regulation 51.2.3 - Default in paying transfer fee instalments

Profit and Sustainability Rules - non-submission of audited accounts

[Hxj]

58 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That’s the only thing I can come up with.

It's where I got too as well - so it must be right!

[AnotherDerbyFan]

23 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I can only guess that the distinction in rules for “Professional Standing” and “established player” is down to the embargo reason.  Looks like you can be under Registration Embargo for reasons other than P&S.  Derby themselves have 5 counts against them, one of which is P&S.  Perhaps if Derby’s only issue was P&S, the established player rule might be applicable….but as we see, Derby have 4 other issues.  That’s the only thing I can come up with.

Derby County

Regulation 16.2 - Failure to provide audited annual accounts

Regulation 16.3 - Annual Accounts not filed with Companies House

Regulation 17 - Default in payments to HMRC

Regulation 51.2.3 - Default in paying transfer fee instalments

Profit and Sustainability Rules - non-submission of audited accounts

22 hours ago, Hxj said:

It's where I got too as well - so it must be right!

That was the conclusion I came to shortly after posting too 

[Hxj]

Wow!  Derby have paid their outstanding transfer fees!

[Pugofwar]

More odd behaviour from Derby, shutting off a guaranteed steam of income. Administration looming perhaps?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/derby-county-tickets-lockdown-covid-24547868.amp?__twitter_impression=true

 

[cityloyal473]

37 minutes ago, Pugofwar said:

More odd behaviour from Derby, shutting off a guaranteed steam of income. Administration looming perhaps?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/derby-county-tickets-lockdown-covid-24547868.amp?__twitter_impression=true

 

That is very, very strange. What business delays opening up revenue streams. 

[Lanterne Rouge]

Derby County face starting season without a centre-back, says Wayne Rooney - BBC Sport

Is that the sound of the world`s smallest violin I hear?

[chinapig]

15 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Derby County face starting season without a centre-back, says Wayne Rooney - BBC Sport

Is that the sound of the world`s smallest violin I hear?

Come now, apparently poor little innocent Derby are being victimised by the evil EFL. Have a heart. Or not as the case may be.

Of course if it wasn't for the grossly unfair transfer embargo they could have signed Richard Keogh to solve their centre back problem.

[downendcity]

1 hour ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Derby County face starting season without a centre-back, says Wayne Rooney - BBC Sport

Is that the sound of the world`s smallest violin I hear?

The world’s smallest violin without any strings.

[Loco Rojo]

Really, really hope the EFL don't reverse the decision out of sympathy. 

[Lanterne Rouge]

Just now, Loco Rojo said:

Really, really hope the EFL don't reverse the decision out of sympathy. 

You just know they will give them some sort of emergency dispensation though now the sainted Wayne has spoken.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Rules is Rules! Could they even grant it if the rules in play as they appear to be, they would be breaching their own Regulations and quite rightly I am sure the rest of the League would have something to say about that!

Today they started with the following- the players are and will be in bold for a reason...

The EFL have them where they want them to a decent extent, no grounds for clemency and no quarter should be given- oh they could drag the Accounts out to mid August, or thereabouts ie the submission to the EFL but that'll merely restrict them in the market...yet why drag out if all compliant and compliant using the EFL's accepted methodology?

Anyway yes, the Starting XI.

                     Roos

Byrne Jagielka Davies? Buchanan

                 Bird Shinnie

   Aluko Morrison Lawrence

                   Baldock

Subs also included Stearman.

That's 4 trialists starting and one on the bench- not contracted due to the current situation, potentially trialists? As for Davies, who knows- he was at the Club but contract up in Summer and no news yet publicly as to renewal- no sign of Wisdom either on bench or in team, he like Davies saw his contract expire in the Summer, status unknown? Seen Ryan Allsop also mentioned elsewhere but he wasn't either in the team or on the bench.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

I like this Tweet in response to the news today too.

Indeed they shouldn't have- wonder if they've paid him his £2m or thereabouts in reported compensation yet.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Never to the dark side]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57887861

[Lanterne Rouge]

5 minutes ago, Never to the dark side said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57887861

Well, there`s a turn up - who could have predicted that!

[downendcity]

Don't know what they’ve got to moan about - we had to play the last 6 months with no midfield and no striker!

Edited July 19, 2021 by downendcity

[chinapig]

14 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Well, there`s a turn up - who could have predicted that!

Though I suspect we can predict the outcome. The phrase "there is some sympathy .." points in a certain direction.

If the EFL say, "Tough, you knowingly broke the rules and you knew what the sanctions were" I might even start to believe they take the issue seriously though.

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by chinapig

[WarksRobin]

The embargo does allow them to make signings but limits apply to contract lengths and fees that can be paid. They can put a team together but it will be weaker under the embargo. Sounds fair to me given their past behaviour that caused the embargo to be imposed.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Like I said Sunday, no quarter should be given by the EFL here. Derby have made their bed with their actions in the past and indeed present- Pearce wanted to build bridges and that can come in time but is- or should be- irrelevant to the matter in hand.

There are different types of Embargo and for different reasons @WarksRobin

For FFP/ P&S ie the Reading one- that's gone somewhat quiet apart from having signed nobody yet, the situation for them IIRC was something like:

1. Wages not exceeding £600k per year.
2. No Transfer fees payable.
3. No loan fees payable.
4. Contract length not exceeding 1 year for permanent signings and 6 months for loan signings.

For Derby, as their issue is HMRC- yes lots of Clubs will be deferring with Agreement but I can only assume that if the EFL are involved, then there must be some falling behind on that, as well no Accounts at all for 2 years, Restatement etc- well to allow them to make signings no matter how limited in scope would risk giving them an unfair advantage between restrictions and Accounts submitted to the EFL's satisfaction.

As such, it's quite possible that they are not allowed to sign anyone at all right now- Jagielka, Aluko, Morrison, Baldock- all starters- were trialists. Davies I have no idea, he was there last season, Stearman as sub also possibly a trialist or non contracted- Wisdom though he didn't make the team or bench, see also Davies and Allsop see the first 4 though no sign in the squad.

@chinapig Think that just means that some Championship clubs have sympathy- ie among some other Clubs, whether it sways the EFL who knows.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

What about this, though it won't happen in a million years.

EFL approach Derby and offer a significant easement- in exchange for an agreed say 15 point deduction effective 2021/22 OR for the Interchangeable fixture list to finally have a use and accept swapping divisions with Wycombe effective immediately.

Or maybe Derby approach and offer a significant price (ie a huge deduction in 2021/22 or swap divisions with Wycombe now) in exchange for a significant improvement of their situation- otherwise IMO no deal, the Restrictions stay!

Two theoretical ideas- but the point remains that I'd be looking to extract a significant concession or set of concessions/price if I was the EFL here

Edited July 19, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, chinapig said:

Though I suspect we can predict the outcome. The phrase "there is some sympathy .." points in a certain direction.

If the EFL say, "Tough, you knowingly broke the rules and you knew what the sanctions were" I might even start to believe they take the issue seriously though.

 

Maybe the likes of Reading, the ones spending too much with little regard for the rules.

The best thing Derby can do is get their accounts sorted, show some willing.  Leaving it to 18th August is just giving the EFL opportunity to (rightly) play hardball.

I sense administration and a points deduction….plus a tightrope on further points deducted if the accounts are not in order.

Rooney can bleat all he likes.

[chinapig]

38 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Maybe the likes of Reading, the ones spending too much with little regard for the rules.

The best thing Derby can do is get their accounts sorted, show some willing.  Leaving it to 18th August is just giving the EFL opportunity to (rightly) play hardball.

I sense administration and a points deduction….plus a tightrope on further points deducted if the accounts are not in order.

Rooney can bleat all he likes.

Yes, it's hard to see why clubs would be sympathetic unless they are in a similar position. Or in other cases would like the regime weakened in case they find themselves facing sanctions in future.

I fear that the fact that it's Rooney doing the bleating as opposed to a manager who is not a celebrity may carry more weight than it should.

[Loco Rojo]

I hope clubs that have had to make some tough decisions over the last year to keep their books in order (to keep within the rules) lose their shit if the EFL back down on this. 

Rooney needs to wind his neck in, accept it and plan ahead accordingly.

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Maybe the likes of Reading, the ones spending too much with little regard for the rules.

The best thing Derby can do is get their accounts sorted, show some willing.  Leaving it to 18th August is just giving the EFL opportunity to (rightly) play hardball.

I sense administration and a points deduction….plus a tightrope on further points deducted if the accounts are not in order.

Rooney can bleat all he likes.

Agree with much of this, though my gut feeling is that they won't go into admin for a while longer and perhaps may avoid it entirely.

4 hours ago, Loco Rojo said:

I hope clubs that have had to make some tough decisions over the last year to keep their books in order (to keep within the rules) lose their shit if the EFL back down on this. 

Rooney needs to wind his neck in, accept it and plan ahead accordingly.

I wonder if they're entitled or just shall we say not terribly acquainted with the facts up there- look at the below the line comments on an article...Beaufort1 a notable exception!

Agree with your post btw.

"Even neutrals will now recognise that the EFL really does have a vendetta against the club and Mel Morris"!?

Well, pretty sure most clubs will support the EFL in terms of the toughest of measures with respect to Derby County.

Not as petty as Mel in 2020 Hearing when he suggested the EFL, especially Shaun Harvey, had an axe to grind or the blah blah woe is me enemy of the EFL State etc blah.

An even more empowered Regulator would probably step in quicker with regards to questionable Accounting and might have taken stronger steps more quickly against Clubs- not just but certainly including this one- with less recourse for Appeal- suggest they go back to the drawing board.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Saw this a few mins ago, made I laugh.

As for one particular fool on DCFCFans who shall remain nameless.

Quote

Prize of a night out with Bristol's saddest banker if you guess who came up with this solution to embargo.  The only clue I'm giving is that it's the same person your going on the night out with.   

What about this, though it won't happen in a million years.

EFL approach Derby and offer a significant easement- in exchange for an agreed say 15 point deduction effective 2021/22 OR for the Interchangeable fixture list to finally have a use and accept swapping divisions with Wycombe effective immediately.

Or maybe Derby approach and offer a significant price (ie a huge deduction in 2021/22 or swap divisions with Wycombe now) in exchange for a significant improvement of their situation- otherwise IMO no deal, the Restrictions stay!

Two theoretical ideas- but the point remains that I'd be looking to extract a significant concession or set of concessions/price if I was the EFL here

Happy to see the fool took a bit of bait- I was fishing a little though the EFL certainly need to play hardball- the 2nd Prize is two nights out with them, or better yet the booby prize! No prizes for guessing this one took a bite though.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[awbb]

By and large, I have a lot of sympathy for fans in this situation as none of this is really their doing but there comes a point where they defend lunacy.
 

Their owners and administrators have tried every tactic, greasy or otherwise, to get out of this and it appears that they have breached every single time it comes to audit. Not only that but there’s clearly a godawful culture at the club and absolute garbage being served up on the pitch.
 

We, of all clubs know, from bitter, first-hand experience, that what would be best for them is a reset. All this manipulation just looks ridiculous, every football fan I talk to thinks Derby are basically a joke at this point. By refusing to accept they’ve broken the rules this ridiculous limbo will carry on and on and will probably end up with them being relegated in front of disinterested, dwindling support.
 

Just take the punishment and relegation! Sort out the squad, culture and the pointless excesses! Restore some pride (it’s the name of their stadium for god’s sake)! Basically, get the house in order. Find the right manager and within a couple of seasons they’ll be right at the top of the 3rd tier.

If it’s done well then it’s only likely to be a season or 2. It’s not the end of the world.

Most of their fans will be loving it and they can be back in the Championship in a much better place than they are now. Yes they’ll lose a bit of sponsorship and TV money in the short term but if they’re in such a state to genuinely think that is going to make a difference they’re absolutely stuffed anyway. 

Edited July 20, 2021 by awbb
Clarity

[Davefevs]

If I was the EFL I’d say, look at Bristol City, they had to play:

Ryley Towler, Sam Bell, Alex Scott, Louis Britton, Tommy Conway, Sam Pearson, Opi Edwards, Owura Edwards, Saikou Janneh, James Morton, whilst Harvey Wiles-Richards and Zac Smith made the bench….several of those all featured in many squads.

They had to deal with Covid too….maybe you should have been more careful.  Get on with it, stop bleating.

[downendcity]

51 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

If I was the EFL I’d say, look at Bristol City, they had to play:

Ryley Towler, Sam Bell, Alex Scott, Louis Britton, Tommy Conway, Sam Pearson, Opi Edwards, Owura Edwards, Saikou Janneh, James Morton, whilst Harvey Wiles-Richards and Zac Smith made the bench….several of those all featured in many squads.

They had to deal with Covid too….maybe you should have been more careful.  Get on with it, stop bleating.

Don't forget we also had to play Famara! 

[exAtyeoMax]

17 hours ago, WarksRobin said:

The embargo does allow them to make signings but limits apply to contract lengths and fees that can be paid. They can put a team together but it will be weaker under the embargo. Sounds fair to me given their past behaviour that caused the embargo to be imposed.

probably would've been better for them if they had been relegated…

[Mr Popodopolous]

Sadly they will be allowed to 'staff up'- albeit under very strict conditions.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57902385

Salary limit imposed per individual, only 1 year for permanent and half a year for loanees- closely monitored by the EFL.

Although how can you sign players of any kind ie take on an additional cost when a) There is an outstanding HMRC issue and b) No Accounts for 2 years!

Quote

In addition, the four separate reasons for Derby's transfer embargo being imposed in the first place still remain. Until that situation changes, the embargo will stay.

They can sign players but the Embargo and reasons for it remain? Poor reporting in some ways.

That club, from top to bottom- have to wonder everything- one even wonders about Mel's so called ill-health in February that was reported.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[downendcity]

EFL to Derby :ok this is your last chance

Fast forward. 

EFL to Derby: That was your penultimate chance but this your last chance. 

Fastt fiward. 

EFL to Derby : Those were your penultimate chances but this your last chance. 

Rinse and repeat. 

 

[Davefevs]

[Mr Popodopolous]

I do suggest fans email the EFL in disgust tbh, seems that slight leniency once more unwarranted...

enquiries@efl.com

[chinapig]

I'm shocked I tell you, shocked! I can't imagine that Parry would bend the knee to please a celebrity manager. Would he?

I have on occasion been told I am too hard on the EFL but I'm afraid the evidence keeps reinforcing my view.

[downendcity]

12 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I'm shocked I tell you, shocked! I can't imagine that Parry would bend the knee to please a celebrity manager. Would he?

I have on occasion been told I am too hard on the EFL but I'm afraid the evidence keeps reinforcing my view.

Or to give them their full title Wayne Rooney’s Derby County's EFL.

[Mr Popodopolous]

This should be a bit of a watershed- fans of clubs should enmasse email the EFL, those compliant clubs and those who were punished- granted those they can sign are of limited wage and limited number and the case is still ongoing, but I'd like to see fans really let the EFL know, mass email campaign.

[chinapig]

I wonder if we are approaching a tipping point when it comes to FFP. Unless the so -called fan led review mandates a Board with a majority of independent non-Executives with extensive powers , which I doubt, and given the current regime's continuing spinelessness, I suspect enough influential Championship clubs will want to weaken the rules even further.

At which point FFP will become even more of a pretence than it is now, assuming it doesn't wither altogether.

Let's face it, Steve Gibson is the only owner to stick his head above the parapet. Our owner has maintained radio silence on the other hand.

My money's on the bad guys winning.

[Mr Popodopolous]

12 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I wonder if we are approaching a tipping point when it comes to FFP. Unless the so -called fan led review mandates a Board with a majority of independent non-Executives with extensive powers , which I doubt, and given the current regime's continuing spinelessness, I suspect enough influential Championship clubs will want to weaken the rules even further.

At which point FFP will become even more of a pretence than it is now, assuming it doesn't wither altogether.

Let's face it, Steve Gibson is the only owner to stick his head above the parapet. Our owner has maintained radio silence on the other hand.

My money's on the bad guys winning.

That's the odd thing however- just the other week, or a few weeks back clubs voted to a) Stop the Stadium Loophole moving forward b) To publish Embargoes and reasons for these c) To tighten the regulations.

Doesn't really feel like the direction of travel is for a loosening at this stage.

Plus Gibson's CEO is one of the new Club Directors- Forest- another Club who are within FFP and shock horror Risdale are the others, but he is quite pro FFP by dint of Preston.

Derby fans are still complaining that the EFL have it in for them etc, in some cases. I wonder if there should be a mass email campaign by fans of a majority of Championship Clubs to the EFL.

I don't remember the perpetual whining by Sheffield Wednesday and Birmingham fans, yes there was kickback but not like this- they really are as far as a decent proportion goes, a fairly despicable fanbase with a Scumbag of an Owner- CEO also scum as are their Auditor mates- with a strong sense of entitlement Derby.

My hatred of them aside, it seems that they are allowed to sign up to 5 players, within strict wage limits and probably free/loan. Free Transfer=Contract not above 1 year, Loan=Contract not above 6 months.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

22 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

This should be a bit of a watershed- fans of clubs should enmasse email the EFL, those compliant clubs and those who were punished- granted those they can sign are of limited wage and limited number and the case is still ongoing, but I'd like to see fans really let the EFL know, mass email campaign.

That presupposes they give a toss what fans think. We know what our club's owner thinks of us for instance and he is one of the relative good guys.

There has been much talk for instance about how important fans are recently following the Super League scandal but does anybody believe there will be anything but cosmetic changes?

Edited July 20, 2021 by chinapig

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, chinapig said:

That presupposes they give a toss what fans think. We know what our club's owner thinks of us for instance and he is one of the relative good guys.

There has been much talk for about how important fans are recently following the Super League scandal but does anybody believe there will be anything but cosmetic changes?

Stadium Sale profit ban is quite positive. Embargo Reporting Service ie the transparency surrounding Embargoes, that is a good start, maybe club fans should lobby their Clubs enmasse which in turn could feed into the EFL.

On a sidenote, people say "Oh think about the fans" when it comes to clubs being punished, "It's not fair on the fans"- but Derby have a weird mix of aggression, arrogance, entitlement and ignorance in their fanbase on these matters at least- I say in this instance bollocks to the fans, **** the fans- deserve all they get a decent number of their fanbase.

I reiterate, I don't recall Birmingham and Sheffield Wednesday being so objectionable for so long, from a fans perspective.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

That's the odd thing however- just the other week, or a few weeks back clubs voted to a) Stop the Stadium Loophole moving forward b) To publish Embargoes and reasons for these c) To tighten the regulations.

Doesn't really feel like the direction of travel is for a loosening at this stage.

Plus Gibson's CEO is one of the new Club Directors- Forest- another Club who are within FFP and shock horror Risdale are the others, but he is quite pro FFP by dint of Preston.

Derby fans are still complaining that the EFL have it in for them etc, in some cases. I wonder if there should be a mass email campaign by fans of a majority of Championship Clubs to the EFL.

I don't remember the perpetual whining by Sheffield Wednesday and Birmingham fans, yes there was kickback but not like this- they really are as far as a decent proportion goes, a fairly despicable fanbase with a Scumbag of an Owner- CEO also scum as are their Auditor mates- with a strong sense of entitlement Derby.

You can write all the rules you want but the issue is one of enforcement. If the EFL backs down as it has here, if disciplinary bodies come up with weak sanctions and/or appellate bodies reduce sanctions, as they did with Sheff Wed despite their egregious offences, and if other clubs just stand by, the rules fall into disrepute.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, chinapig said:

You can write all the rules you want but the issue is one of enforcement. If the EFL backs down as it has here, if disciplinary bodies come up with weak sanctions and/or appellate bodies reduce sanctions, as they did with Sheff Wed despite their egregious offences, and if other clubs just stand by, the rules fall into disrepute.

EFL have Regulation 16.20 at their disposal which needs minimal criteria to invoke- that compels a Club to stick to a budget until such time as the EFL are satisfied.

That Stadium Sale loophole isn't coming back- a Club can do it but it simply won't count for FFP- good example.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Their fans, I dunno Trump and Shane Warne would be proud of some of the spin by Mel and their fans are like followers of a weird cult in places- they're uniquely objectionable some of them.

Take a look at this joker- G Star Ram- the Star bit is ironic with his logic but...

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/37683-please-don’t-blame-morris-and-pearce/page/8/?tab=comments#comment-2156692

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/37683-please-don’t-blame-morris-and-pearce/page/9/?tab=comments#comment-2156856

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/37683-please-don’t-blame-morris-and-pearce/page/9/?tab=comments#comment-2156871

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/37683-please-don’t-blame-morris-and-pearce/page/9/?tab=comments#comment-2156912

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/37683-please-don’t-blame-morris-and-pearce/page/10/?tab=comments#comment-2156932

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/37683-please-don’t-blame-morris-and-pearce/page/10/?tab=comments#comment-2156958

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/37683-please-don’t-blame-morris-and-pearce/?do=findComment&comment=2156986

Well I can't print screen and on other matters maybe he's more balanced but he seems to know better than the Independent Expert and LAP.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

9 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Stadium Sale profit ban is quite positive. Embargo Reporting Service ie the transparency surrounding Embargoes, that is a good start, maybe club fans should lobby their Clubs enmasse which in turn could feed into the EFL.

On a sidenote, people say "Oh think about the fans" when it comes to clubs being punished, "It's not fair on the fans"- but Derby have a weird mix of aggression, arrogance, entitlement and ignorance in their fanbase on these matters at least- I say in this instance bollocks to the fans, **** the fans- deserve all they get a decent number of their fanbase.

I reiterate, I don't recall Birmingham and Sheffield Wednesday being so objectionable for so long, from a fans perspective.

The stadium sale loophole, mysteriously appearing with nobody seeming to notice, has served its purpose. The clubs who wanted it got what they wanted, perhaps encouraged by the former EFL CEO, so the stable door has been shut after the horse has bolted.

[Mr Popodopolous]

32 minutes ago, chinapig said:

The stadium sale loophole, mysteriously appearing with nobody seeming to notice, has served its purpose. The clubs who wanted it got what they wanted, perhaps encouraged by the former EFL CEO, so the stable door has been shut after the horse has bolted.

Was in the PL rules at the time the EFL took on the PL FFP Regs. Goes against UEFA's of course...the old ones adjusted it (Profit or Loss) out, as indeed for all Tangible Fixed Asset sales.

Perhaps the PL wanted it- or perhaps nobody noticed...until such time as the loophole was required.

I'd also like to see Training Ground Sale and Leaseback get the same treatment btw and perhaps other Tangible Fixed Assets but these are the big 2 for Football Clubs.

Is a shame that their Auditors aren't being probed more closely as well- not by the EFL but by those that matter in that respect.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

9 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

EFL have Regulation 16.20 at their disposal which needs minimal criteria to invoke- that compels a Club to stick to a budget until such time as the EFL are satisfied.

Again, the question is less what regulations they have at their disposal but whether they apply them without fear or favour. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, chinapig said:

Again, the question is less what regulations they have at their disposal but whether they apply them without fear or favour. 

This could be similar to Derby's one if there are wage limits, player limits and contractual length limits.

[Hxj]

I know I'll get slated for this, but I have some sympathy for Derby on the player position.

The club still has a mountain of debt and no one wants to own them.

Whilst they can sign players, they are limited and start their campaign in 18 days time, and haven't signed anyone yet.

Plus of course we are still awaiting the FFP position.

[Loco Rojo]

So the EFL punish Derby because they broke the rules (and I'm sure some would say they got off lightly) and then reduce that punishment because Derby don't like it. 

Then impose new, lenient, conditions.....wonder how long those conditions will last.

Great message to send all the other teams.

The EFL everyone. The Borris Johnson of the football world. 

[chinapig]

30 minutes ago, Hxj said:

I know I'll get slated for this, but I have some sympathy for Derby on the player position.

The club still has a mountain of debt and no one wants to own them.

Whilst they can sign players, they are limited and start their campaign in 18 days time, and haven't signed anyone yet.

Plus of course we are still awaiting the FFP position.

All of which is a consequence of multiple breaches of the rules. They knew what they were doing and what the sanctions were so I don't see much cause for sympathy. Any more than I would expect any if ,say, I knowingly break traffic law and have my right to drive suspended.

But the EFL has predictably rowed back so it's a bit academic now.

Edited July 20, 2021 by chinapig