Derby County

[Hxj]

1 minute ago, downendcity said:

Im guessing I'm right in thinking that your wealth of knowledge didn't come from a skim read of "Accounting for Dummies"? 

Nope - it was very long read! And no I am not an accountant.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just putting aside my slating of Derby, a substantial minority of their fans, a certain forum and so on- he's become a proper rogue owner hasn't he, FFP or otherwise.

Not a loveable rogue, of course.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Hxj]

23 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Do have to wonder if this is yet another attempt to swing FFP for 2019 and beyond in their favour again- "Can't charge us with overspending if you don't have the Consolidated data as we have deliberately let Sevco 5112 and the other 3 relevant companies be struck off"- kinda thing? Or "All you have to go on is the Club/Gellaw Newco 203 (as prepared by us) Revenue v Costs...Sevco 5112, Stadia and Club DCFC and the Academy are no more so that data has disappeared".

I doubt that the Treasury Solicitor will care what happens to the football club, and they definitely wont fund the ongoing losses.

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, Hxj said:

I doubt that the Treasury Solicitor will care what happens to the football club, and they definitely wont fund the ongoing losses.

My 2nd part of the 'cunning plan' would be that because Gellaw Newco 203 might be the controlling entity, you keep up obligations for those two, let the other half fall away and debts fall away as do past costs making FFP assessment from 2019 to 2020 and maybe 2021 that much harder.

IIRC it's:

Quote

Derby County FC

Under

Gellaw Newco 203

Quote

Club DCFC

Stadia DCFC

DCFC Academy

Under

Sevco 5112

Then finally.

Quote

Club and Sevco 5112

Under

Gellaw Newco 203

EFL for one surely will have views here!! That whole 2nd bit with lines through it all disappears in this theory...maybe it still needed to be consolidated under Gellaw Newco 203 however.

How would my wild theory fit with their insolvency Regulations- and FFP. I've got a feeling not very well.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Hxj]

The football club is directly owned by Sevco 5112 which is directly owned by Gellaw Newco 203 Ltd which is directly owned by Morris.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Ah okay I stand corrected!

I just wonder what the angle/action plan of Mel Morris is here...there must be a significant benefit at someone's expense in letting Sevco 5112 and others fall away?

Edited August 19, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Hxj]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I just wonder what the angle/action plan of Mel Morris is here

There isn't one!  This is just a computer in Companies House applying the Companies Acts and saying your accounts are so late we will now strike you off if you don't submitt the accounts soon.

[Mr Popodopolous]

16 minutes ago, Hxj said:

There isn't one!  This is just a computer in Companies House applying the Companies Acts and saying your accounts are so late we will now strike you off if you don't submitt the accounts soon.

Seems so but then the same hasn't been applied to either Derby County FC or Gellaw Newco 203 Limited yet so I have to wonder if he's given assurances there to CH that he hasn't for the others.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Hxj]

18 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Seems so but then the same hasn't been applied to either Derby County FC or Gellaw Newco 203 Limited

I think (but cannot guarantee) that that is because they've been issued where both the accounts and confirmation statements are overdue.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Hxj said:

I think (but cannot guarantee) that that is because they've been issued where both the accounts and confirmation statements are overdue.

Could be.

From memory, the following is the case:

*Club DCFC, Derby County FC Academy, Stadia DCFC- no Confirmation Statement for 2021, no Accounts for 2019 and 2020.

*Sevco 5112- No Accounts for 2019 and 2020, no Confirmation Statement for 2021 or 2020.

*Gellaw Newco 203- No Accounts for 2019 and 2020, no Confirmation Statement for 2021.

Derby County Football Club- No Accounts for 2019 and 2020, no Confirmation Statement until November 2021...the most recent one on time.

Happen to think he's up to something.

As for some Derby fans they're proposing what they would see as an acceptable compromise.

1) A 3-6 points deduction.

2) In exchange for all Embargo conditions lifted.

3) Case or cases otherwise closed.

Now I don't know if they mean just to 2018 or to also include in it any assessment periods to 2019, 2020 and 2021 combined average, maybe to 2017 if you work backwards and maybe parts of the deduction suspended too.

Any merit in that proposed compromise or thoughts as to whether the EFL would consider? Seems a bad deal for the EFL to me!!

[Hxj]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Happen to think he's up to something.

Keep dreaming!

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 minutes ago, Hxj said:

Keep dreaming!

Haha, eh? Well maybe but...

He does appear to like to push the limits let's say- 'cunning plan'?

[AnotherDerbyFan]

19 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Don't even know how much they tried to cut back after the Stadium sale in reality.

Season on season or overall from then 'til now?

Season on season
18/19 would have seen a modest decrease in the wage bill. Vydra, Weimann, Jerome, Shackell, Bent, Baird, Ledley all out permanently. Hard to see the wages of Waghorn, Marriott, Malone, Jozefzoon, Holmes, Evans, Wilson, Mount and Tomori exceeding what we offloaded.
19/20 would have been another decrease. Nugent, Butterfield, Blackman, Pearce, Johnson, Bryson, Thorne, Keogh, Olsson all out. Bielik, Shinnie, Rooney and a few cheap loans in.
20/21 another decrease. Martin, Anya, Huddlestone out, with Jozwiak, Byrne, Marshall and Kazim in.
21/22 another decrease. Malone, Carson, Marriott, Waghorn, Jozefzoon, Wisdom out. Allsop, Stearman, Jagielika, Morrison and Baldock in.

 

Overall
Squad list at the time of the stadium sale:
Carson, Roos, Mitchell, Keogh, Davies, Shackell, Pearce, Wisdom, Forsyth, Olsson, Huddlestone, Thorne, Baird, Johnson, Ledley, Butterfield, Bryson, Hanson, Palmer (loan), Anya, Lawrence, Weimann, Russell, Bennett, Blackman, Vydra, Martin, Nugent, Jerome, Bent, Winnall (loan)

Squad list now:
Roos, Allsop, Marshall, Davies, Jagielka, Stearman, Byrne, Ebosele, Forsyth, Buchanan, Bielik, Bird, Shinnie, Knight, Sibley, Morrison, Watson, Hutchinson, Jozwiak, Lawrence, Baldock, Kazim, Stretton

 

I think it's fair to say we've made considerable cutbacks.

[NcnsBcfc]

And now Reading sign Junior Hoillett on a free as well.

I guess they're taking their cost cutting seriously.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, NcnsBcfc said:

And now Reading sign Junior Hoillett on a free as well.

I guess they're taking their cost cutting seriously.

I doubt he’s got £60k p.w. this time around

[NcnsBcfc]

53 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I doubt he’s got £60k p.w. this time around

Indeed.

But still a decent wage, and Reading are well over then FFP threshold, plus on some sort of embargo i think? @Mr Popodopolous?

It just makes a bit of a mockery of us, playing by the rules.

Just like Derby signing Baldock, because of an injury to Kasim-Richards. Just deal with injury like we had to last season.

Either you are on a hard embargo or you're not.

[Davefevs]

Just now, NcnsBcfc said:

Indeed.

But still a decent wage, and Reading are well over then FFP threshold, plus on some sort of embargo i think? @Mr Popodopolous?

It just makes a bit of a mockery of us, playing by the rules.

Just like Derby signing Baldock, because of an injury to Kasim-Richards. Just deal with injury like we had to last season.

Either you are on a hard embargo or you're not.

Couldn’t agree more.

[CyderInACan]

1 hour ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Indeed.

But still a decent wage, and Reading are well over then FFP threshold, plus on some sort of embargo i think? @Mr Popodopolous?

It just makes a bit of a mockery of us, playing by the rules.

Just like Derby signing Baldock, because of an injury to Kasim-Richards. Just deal with injury like we had to last season.

Either you are on a hard embargo or you're not.

It’s a massive pisstake. Hopefully justice will be done. 

[Guest Respectful visitor]

In the interests of balance...

https://ramsreviewpodcast.wixsite.com/home/post/the-wrong-coloured-shorts

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 20/08/2021 at 15:26, NcnsBcfc said:

Indeed.

But still a decent wage, and Reading are well over then FFP threshold, plus on some sort of embargo i think? @Mr Popodopolous?

It just makes a bit of a mockery of us, playing by the rules.

Just like Derby signing Baldock, because of an injury to Kasim-Richards. Just deal with injury like we had to last season.

Either you are on a hard embargo or you're not.

In terms of Reading- though I largely agree with the point you are making.

Nixon said a few weeks ago that they're capped at £8.5k per week, 1 year deal- free agent or loans without loan fees etc.

Derby adding Baldock and Jagielka feels one too many...pick one, they were allocated 5 signings on EFL terms, Baldock is number 6.

It's there in Black and White "Breach of Profit and Sustainability Rules"- btw Derby's is egregious, outstandingly bad but Reading under those Embargo conditions, they differ a bit to Derby's...

Reading have under 24 Established Players as it stands so...but Charges these absolutely should follow.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Won't add much to this as I was initially intending to take a bit of a vow of silence on Derby for a while but I did read the other day that Rooney would like to add- he was asked ideally basically- as many as 8 new players.

Can sign all the players he wants...if the EFL get what they want in the manner in which they want it- otherwise I'd urge the EFL to keep these conditions in place indefinitely if necessary, but overall for as long as it takes.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

Iirc the original deadline for Derby to present their revised accounts was 18th August  The EFL reportedly gave them a 6 day extension, though I have not seen any reports as to why. Perhaps Derby's pet auditor is on holiday?

So presumably the accounts should be presented this week. Unless:

1. I have my timeline wrong.

2. The EFL grant another extension without explanation.

3. A plea bargain is being negotiated to allow the EFL to claim to be tough while minimising the actual punishment.

Thought I suspect the process will drag on a long while yet. A points deduction when Derby are already down or comfortably safe would suit both parties perhaps.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, chinapig said:

Iirc the original deadline for Derby to present their revised accounts was 18th August  The EFL reportedly gave them a 6 day extension, though I have not seen any reports as to why. Perhaps Derby's pet auditor is on holiday?

So presumably the accounts should be presented this week. Unless:

1. I have my timeline wrong.

2. The EFL grant another extension without explanation.

3. A plea bargain is being negotiated to allow the EFL to claim to be tough while minimising the actual punishment.

Thought I suspect the process will drag on a long while yet. A points deduction when Derby are already down or comfortably safe would suit both parties perhaps.

There are 5 threats to Audit Independence and these are as follows:

1. Self-Interest Threat
2. Self-Review Threat
3. Advocacy Threat
4. Familiarity Threat
5. Intimidation Threat

I'll leave any commentary to others.

Should be this Tuesday, and a rumour is that their Embargo will be lifted on the same day- there is also a counter-rumour that there will be a 3 point deduction as well as the Embargo being lifted.

What is unclear is how 2019, 2020 and 2021 joint period would fit into this, or how it feeds into 2021/22 or even working back to 2016/17, that particular 3 year period. It's unclear as to what any final settlement would look like or what periods it would cover...

Edited August 22, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Is Derby's wage bill now actually <£10m??

That would be in reference to a mooted £1.5m sell on clause for Will Hughes- could it really have dropped by 80% or so in just 3-4 years? Inclusive of all the non playing staff, non football staff, PAYE bits- what about Keogh compensation, Cocu and his mates etc. Remember the total consolidated wages in 2017/18 were £46m or thereabouts. Decent numbers of their fans seem to think their wage bill is now a bit of a pittance etc.

I remember reading this on Friday but phone died before I could respond properly. A constructive post in parts merits a constructive response. Charlotte Ram, well the less said about them the better!

"A clear hate for Derby and their fans".

Not entirely fair. I certainly have no time whatsoever for Mel Morris and since Derby started to get Billy big stuff in 2018 onwards, naturally I have grown in antipathy- and a lot of the fans seem to laud and condone and praise it, not least the loopholes and Mel has EFL on strings and that too deserves a certain level of slating let's say. Strike me as having a pretty arrogant chunk to their fanbase, with a decent level of entitlement- in these respects anyway.

On the other hand there are sensible Derby fans absolutely- maybe I'm unfairly blaming a majority for a loudmouth minority, but a decent majority of fans aside? Mel Morris is a slimy weasel with a pet auditor, a decent number of the fans seem to condone and laud attempts to get one over and the Club itself are pompous and entitled. Unsure what to make of Stephen Pearce- article I read said even his critics said he was a nice chap but he was at the wheel during this time, Financial Director IIRC?

Stephen Pearce did mention a substantial additional Profit potentially- Kieran Maguire flagged the £30m from 2007/08, ie the Remainder of the Revaluation Reserve on disposal- an issue is that feels like Double Counting, potentially in some respects. Seems pretty sketchy to suddenly bring up to an extra £30m into the FFP calcs...

It's due to a lack of Accounts and Confirmation Statements probably- though interestingly not for the Club itself and Gellaw Newco 203- but the problem with this is that allowing them to be struck off can potentially obscure the FFP figures for 2019, 2020 and 2021 even- but certainly the first two. There are costs contained within Sevco 5112 Limited yet the Club itself (Kieran Maguire again) account for the income in their own Accounts. 2018 is the best example of this- the income for Sevco 5112 and the Club are virtually the same, but the gap is about £14-15m in terms of Profit or Loss before tax. It's unacceptable if the Club are seeking to hide this from the EFL for the 2019, 2020 and maybe 2021 Accounts.

Likewise there was a dispute in respect of Impairment in Gellaw Newco 203 Limited- one of the many sets of Written Reasons out in May covered this but there was a substantial additional Impairment in these which the EFL alleged was Player Amortisation tied up with Goodwill and an attempt to exclude it from the calculations entirely.

Accept? EFL hold certain cards, they can just keep the Embargo going I assume if they don't believe the Accounts reflect what they should, keep it going pending further enquiries and the like and that seems reasonable to me- a minor agreed punishment given how many years there are that need to be recalculated potentially I wonder about- what about the 2019 Accounts? These showed a £31m loss as per the 2020 Written Reasons even before we get onto extra Amortisation analysis but also a possible uplift in Profit on certain Player Disposals, what about the period to 2017 prior to the Stadium Sale but which would require some adjusted Amortisation?

I will though agree that the EFL made plenty of blunders. In 2018 they allowed Derby to pick two valuations. They allowed them to go with the DRC for P&S, but apply to uplift to the Profits method- £74.4m and £81.1m- for P&S you make them pick the lower and budget accordingly. They also allowed the issue to be kicked down the road as Derby wanted the issue shut off ahead of the Summer window- this was at the EFL's privilege so to speak, what should have happened was that outstanding issues were thrashed out before Derby were deemed good to go, compromise might be the more commonly used DRC ie £74.4m for FFP but £81.1m- Profits method- in the Accounts if they wish.

Rent, there's another one- the Independent Valuer themselves stated Annual Rent of £4.16m per season (Paper Transaction or not, it'd still show). Yet the EFL let Derby haggle them down to £1.1m for the spurious bits about days usage for Football- again as a condition to include in P&S I'd be insisting on the Independent Valuation and Rent even if only for P&S purposes and further to that, the more commonly used valuation for the Football Industry. Otherwise enquiries go on through 2018 and restrictions stay in play to give the EFL a proper period to analyse.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

50 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Should be this Tuesday, and a rumour is that their Embargo will be lifted on the same day- there is also a counter-rumour that there will be a 3 point deduction as well as the Embargo being lifted.

My expectation has long been that a deal would be done in a (non) smoke-filled room. A 3 point deduction fits nicely with that. We shall see.

Of course it would send a message to other clubs that egregious behaviour leads to no serious consequences but maybe that suits all parties.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Bit that I couldn't add to that post as ran out of edit time.

FFP and wages? How do you mean? The EFL 2020 Written Reasons showed that Consolidated Accounts were the ones to be used- Sevco 5112 Limited- and this was inclusive of the full wage bill except probably for Academy wages under Allowables. The striking off of certain companies, or potential striking off anyway could well be due to a lack of Accounts or Confirmation Statements for varied periods but interestingly does not include Derby County FC ie the Club or Gellaw Newco 203 last time I looked even though they too have not submitted and the only ones without an overdue Confirmation Statement=the Club as it's due in November sometime.

Could that be a deliberate ruse by the owner to obscure FFP costs- ie "Can't assess the Consolidated Accounts to 2019, 2020 and 2021 if they no longer exist". "Can't check the Rent due for Sale and leaseback if Club DCFC and Stadia DCFC no longer exist". I'd hope the EFL keep all the pressure on if the Club are attempting to deceive them in this manner.

Accept a minor punishment? Well maybe but are you factoring in that Restatement messes up multiple periods? Some for the better and some for the worse but I make it a minimum of 3 FFP periods that have to be re-analysed as a result:

1. 2015/16, 2016/17 and 2017/18
2. 2016/17, 2017/18 and 2018/19
3. 2017/18, 2018/19 and combined average of 2019/20 and 2020/21.

Then if we work back, the EFL site says that 2016/17 is the first year in which the rules take place...

Could therefore be argued that:

2014/15, 2015/16 and 2016/17

Would be adversely or positively affected- but nonetheless affected all the same by the need to Restate.

Hell it could even feed into:

2018/19, combined average of 2019/20 and 2020/21 and 2021/22.

Because what is restated in one period could knock on for better, worse or a mix of the two into subsequent periods and one prior period.

I'm glad you mentioned the EFL and their errors as they have made a lot.

1. When Derby and other Clubs approached them in Summer 2018 or Spring 2018, they held a certain amount of leverage.
2. They IMO could have been within rights to insist that loose ends were tied up before lifting Embargo conditions- read the Written Reasons.
3. Derby wanted it lifted quickly due to the Summer Window opening up- this left a lot of uncompleted issues to return to.
4. EFL seemed to permit two valuations to come into consideration for P&S calcs. The DRC (£74.4m) and the Profits method (£81.1m). They needed positive answers more quickly than the EFL needed to be bounced into it- DRC is much more commonly used for Football Stadia Valuation and Profits method looks a bit of a joke now what with Covid etc decimating Revenues- they seemed keen to let Derby have their cake and eat it to an extent "Yes you can do this and yes we can discuss the higher valuation later- now go and spend!" A better solution might have been to make the case for £74.4m at DRC for P&S purposes and to hold the Embargo in play while negotiations still ongoing...played their hand poorly I think, the EFL. Look at how reluctant they are to lift Embargoes now- this is the way it should have been in Summer 2018, better to get things right at the time than have to argue later. It's a give and take- Mel and Derby just wanted to take, insist on a condition of accepting and lifting the embargo swiftly the £74.4m DRC for P&S.
5. The Rent! Independent Valuer themselves stated £4.16m per season. Now even if this is a Paper Transaction, it ended at £1.1m per season due to some spurious reasons- there was also reference to rent in terms of Club DCFC and Stadia DCFC but this could disappear if the Accounts do- unclear if that was in addition to or part of the £1.1m.

[Davefevs]

City up to 14th

[chinapig]

9 minutes ago, Marco the red said:

Percy reporting this MAY be coming to an end, efl pointing towards 9 point deduction, derby have to decide whether they accept it or if not stay transfer embargoed plus potential potential penalties 

They will surely appeal and the deduction will be reduced given the Sheff Weds precedent. Even if the embargo is lifted do they have the money to make significant signings?

[Davefevs]

Just now, chinapig said:

They will surely appeal and the deduction will be reduced given the Sheff Weds precedent. Even if the embargo is lifted do they have the money to make significant signings?

They’ve certainly left it late in the window….to appeal would surely take them beyond the end of the window?

[chinapig]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

They’ve certainly left it late in the window….to appeal would surely take them beyond the end of the window?

Yes of course you are right. Perhaps they will accept the sanction and have deals lined up. Though short of a takeover I don't see where the money will come from.

They're between a rock and a hard place of their own making. And Morris still probably thinks he's a smart operator.

[Hxj]

3 minutes ago, chinapig said:

the deduction will be reduced given the Sheff Weds precedent.

The penalty was reduced in Wednesday's case partly because the EFL went off on a tangent charging individuals as well as the club, which caused delays and those charges were eventually withdrawn.

The delays in this case are entirely the fault of Derby County.

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

to appeal would surely take them beyond the end of the window?

Technically if Derby are made a formal offer of a sanction they have 14 days to accept or it goes to a disciplinary commission to determine.  There could be an appeal from the DC by either party.

[chinapig]

8 minutes ago, Hxj said:

The penalty was reduced in Wednesday's case partly because the EFL went off on a tangent charging individuals as well as the club, which caused delays and those charges were eventually withdrawn.

The delays in this case are entirely the fault of Derby County.

Technically if Derby are made a formal offer of a sanction they have 14 days to accept or it goes to a disciplinary commission to determine.  There could be an appeal from the DC by either party.

Thanks, understood. It seems to me that all parties are tainted by everything from incompetence to outright venality.

Love the game, hate the business and all that.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I understood the proposed penalty was 9 points, with a further 3 suspended and an EFL Business Plan.

Some Derby fans are of course saying nothing doing guilt wise, EFL have no leg to stand on as looking for a settlement etc.

https://theramswriter.wordpress.com/2021/08/26/derby-county-close-to-efl-settlement-with-a-points-deduction-still-possible/

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/38137-points-deduction-incoming/

Just keep the hard Embargo on if they can't agree and keep the Wheels of Justice grinding on, giving no quarter.

[Mr Popodopolous]

One thing that the Article doesn't mention is what happens with the 2019, 2020 Accounts and those periods ie into 2019 and the combined 2020 and 2021.

Or would the 9 pts, plus 3 suspended and a Business Plan be part of an all encompassing Settlement that includes all the other period affected by Restatement of the Accounts?

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

One thing that the Article doesn't mention is what happens with the 2019, 2020 Accounts and those periods ie into 2019 and the combined 2020 and 2021.

Or would the 9 pts, plus 3 suspended and a Business Plan be part of an all encompassing Settlement that includes all the other period affected by Restatement of the Accounts?

Will be interesting to see the breakdown, eventually…..might be a breakdown from Derby fans too.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Will be interesting to see the breakdown, eventually…..might be a breakdown from Derby fans too.

It will.

Like I say, lots seem still to be defiant, proclaiming innocence, that they should keep fighting etc.

I actually have suggested before that Derby propose a settlement but slightly different.

Double figure deduction in exchange for all Transfer Embargoes being lifted save for FFP obligations being monitored for the ongoing season.

9 pts with 3 suspended plus a Business Plan, quite similar. Had Derby been the ones to propose it they might even have got a better deal.

As it is, Mel and his stubbornness- well they can just remain under Embargo for many months with the possibility of charges for this or subsequent periods. Entirely self-inflicted, they have their 23 after all so no more signings necessary.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I note that a poster on there referred to a 'halfwit on OTIB'.

Given some of your fans still argue a) That the Amortisation was FRS 102 compliant and b) That the EFL have little to go on, I scoff to an extent.

What some of your fans clearly fail or choose not to grasp, talking of foolish, is that the EFL don't necessarily have to lift the Embargo until all is agreed.

9 points, 3 suspended and a 2021/22 Business Plan or no more inbound Transfers allowed for the foreseeable and investigations rolling on, time for a bit of pragmatism? 

Especially if it removes liability and potential risk for Accounts and FFP to 2019, average of 2020 and 2021, plus 2017 working back.

Makes a takeover harder too the current impasse. Prevailing uncertainty and messy issues tend to...

PPS, interesting to see the sudden turning on John Percy. Always thought he was very reliable on Midlands Football, pretty strong for Derby as a source and not bad on EFL FFP matters.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Hxj]

At least my chat seems to have been correct Settlement being negotiated. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

They're in a bit of a League of their own tbh, some Derby fans.

On FFP matters anyway. Okay maybe I'm being unfair but in terms of Championship FFP cases, old and new methods does anyone else remember:

*As much complaining for as long.

*As much rubbishing of expert witness.

*Claims for as loudly and as long that the Accounts still were in-line with FRS 102.

*Suggestions still of submitting via tricky methods to try and get round.. 

*...While failing/refusing to accept that approach may well prolong the Embargo and limbo in which they find themselves.

The EFL have come this far, they need to see things through to the bitter end, unless a mutually agreed and conclusive Settlement is agreed.

I don't see Mel Morris agreeing to matters, as it would mean an Admission that yes the Club have done wrong.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Still confused as to how 2019, 2020/21 combined Assessment would fit into it.

Think they would leave the 3 years to 2017 well alone even though it's possible technically that Restatement leads to a breach.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Are misconduct charges also applicable here, in due course?

Remember they would be in addition and separate to any invoking of the powers contained within Regulation 16.8.

Clearly the EFL should also look closely at whether this is applicable, in addition to the FFP issue if Derby continue to resist a settlement.

16.3 you could make a case for I expect.

I mean he's a good poster, but I have to wonder about this bit..

3 years to 2018 first full 3 year period? Well that's not what the EFL site suggests...

I don't see how it fits with first 3 years to 2018 then. That said I doubt they'll work backwards.

Never mind me going on, @AnotherDerbyFan so much to report in developments...very interested in your take, so much in the last few weeks!

Edited August 27, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Hxj]

 

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

but I have to wonder about this bit..

I agree - clearly deranged suggesting a 15 point penalty!  Even better is Charlotte Ram who says:

'You are also correct that Amortisation policy of an intangible asset i.e. the players contract, is up to the company concerned and is not covered by FRS 102, so the EFL's stance has no legal basis on fact. Just because the other clubs do straight line amortisation is irrelevant, we did not break any laws or regulations, so my view is "see you in court axs wipes"  '

Clearly they haven't read the FRS or the LAP decision ...

[Mr Popodopolous]

30 minutes ago, Hxj said:

 

I agree - clearly deranged suggesting a 15 point penalty!  Even better is Charlotte Ram who says:

'You are also correct that Amortisation policy of an intangible asset i.e. the players contract, is up to the company concerned and is not covered by FRS 102, so the EFL's stance has no legal basis on fact. Just because the other clubs do straight line amortisation is irrelevant, we did not break any laws or regulations, so my view is "see you in court axs wipes"  '

Clearly they haven't read the FRS or the LAP decision ...

Ha the take of some of them on this, especially Charlotte Ram.

GoC I'm a bit surprised at, usually a good grasp of the facts but that poster usually good. Them aside, some of their takes on the EFL issue are baffling! Don't see where some of them are coming from at all. Decent numbers still in recent days or maybe it's posts by a few posters, debating the accuracy of the decision about FRS 102.

Interesting to see that Club DCFC still seems to be active and trading while under the 1st Gazette notice, it's got just short of 2 months to sort it out. 

No clue on Stadia DCFC, I assume Derby County FC Academy is still there, no clue on Sevco 5112.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Forgot to ask you @Hxj

Is over on the FFP thread, but Hillsborough. £60m price and the £38m profit surely overdone?? Think that the EFL would have grounds to delve back in (Independent Valuation in 2014, DRC=£22.25m plus Land at £1.5m). Cost combined at the equivalent £11-12m.

Sale 2018 or 2019, £60m. Presumably DRC for P&S. Land inflation in Hillsborough area eh, wow!!

[Hxj]

To be honest I’m not bothered at the moment - they had a points deduction and got relegated - if they get promoted this season maybe look at things then?

[Mr Popodopolous]

Fair, they did go down after all- yeah maybe you're right, but I hope the EFL do their job correctly if they bounce straight back.

It drops off after this season in any event.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Couple of little bits.

Ha, will there be a retrospective ban for this- ref missed it- ouch! Saw it on Quest earlier. Although is there also a question of intent or lack of, ie standing/stumbling back. This was 10 mins in, he got the assist but then again they should possibly have had a pen as well.

On a side note, the claims of conspiracy are stacking up a bit! I remember a while ago, it was Kieran Maguire hated them, the EFL (obviously!), they think/thought that Matt Hughes and the Daily Mail weren't terribly fond of them, vice versa I am sure, now they're mentioning Sky and EFL refs! Oh plus Gibson, never forget Gibson!

Is there in fact a Grand conspiracy vs the club- we should be told! Or is it actually:

1. Flagging of questionable Accounting practices as a a matter of interest. He is after all a Football Finance Blogger/Author whatever, plus publicity sells does it not!
2. A Regulator and fellow clubs sick to the back teeth and beyond of never ending attempted loopholes.
3. A reporter feeding info he had found- yes indeed probably with the aim to sell papers/generate content.
4. Sky- Well the hype is the hype and bad news sells!
5. Gibson- Seeking to establish the facts perhaps but with genuine suspicions about the Practices, worth noting that in Spring 2019 Pulis changed his tune a few times on the FFP issue in the same interview!
6. EFL Refs? Well, they could be secretly in cahoots to send the club down, but then Championship/EFL Officiating has been poor for years! I remember reading last year in a couple of papers that Championship Clubs maybe a large number or even as a collective were flagging concerns about the standard of EFL Refs etc. Tbh some of it could all be a bit of fun on their part "Ah they've all got it in for us etc" or could be useful to foster a siege mentality but I wonder if any believe it, lock stock and barrel.

It's a strange coalition if true...EFL, Kieran Maguire, Matt Hughes, Nixon too maybe, Sky Sports, Steve Gibson and random EFL refs- Rick Parry and (formerly of their club)Trevor Birch!

The coalition of...? Anyone?

Edited August 29, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Had a little delve into the most recent EFL Financial Regs.

It's the first time they mention Revaluation Reserves in any context, albeit it's for League One so may not be applicable here as such but...

https://www.efl.com/contentassets/b3cd34c726c341ca9636610aa4503172/regulations-season-2021-22-final.pdf

2.9 and arguably 2.10...however "Any revaluation reserves do not qualify for inclusion". Sounds to me as if the EFL most definitely would not be inclined to accept the apparent extra Profit on the disposal of Pride Park for P&S/FFP purposes if it's as Kieran Maguire suggested. Could call it Other Income I guess, but again they wouldn't accept.

Under Football Fortune Income.

If it's Accumulated Profit you're looking at, that's negative for Club and the consolidated Sevco 5112 alike- even with the £30m added in/included.

Wonder what will happen first- acceptance of EFL terms or a new IDC...new IDC how long will that take? Can't see it being done and dusted if the latter by February, can you...? As it stands that would mean that they sit out the January window and quite possibly lose Jagielka and Baldock- their contracts run until January.

Bit tricky to sell the club in that position too?

Edited September 2, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Lrrr]

Well they’ve just about got more points then EFL charges 

[1960maaan]

Here we go again .....

Meanwhile in other news:

Derby County left-back Craig Forsyth has been banned for three games after admitting a charge of violent conduct.

The incident, in the fifth minute of the Rams' Championship draw with Nottingham Forest on Saturday, was not seen by officials at the time.

It means Forsyth, 32, will miss league games against Birmingham, West Brom and Stoke after the international break.

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Now I'm sure the club in q will step back from this but who knew that the EFL had such powers?

https://the72.co.uk/249479/details-of-possible-transfer-ban-revealed-as-deadline-set-for-derby-county-to-pay-off-outstanding-transfer-fees/

The full story is online, but if they don't settle their Transfer debts that show on the EFL Rap Sheet by the end of the month, they will have a Transfer ban- presumably for fees and the like in January 2022, Summer 2022 and January 2023- normal service resumed by Summer 2023??

I don't know what it means, whether it simply means no fees, or no fees and wage limit or similar.

We'll know in about a month.

Edited September 5, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[1960maaan]

14 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Now I'm sure the club in q will step back from this but who knew that the EFL had such powers?

https://the72.co.uk/249479/details-of-possible-transfer-ban-revealed-as-deadline-set-for-derby-county-to-pay-off-outstanding-transfer-fees/

The full story is online, but if they don't settle their Transfer debts that show on the EFL Rap Sheet by the end of the month, they will have a Transfer ban- presumably for fees and the like in January 2022, Summer 2022 and January 2023- normal service resumed by Summer 2023??

I don't know what it means, whether it simply means no fees, or no fees and wage limit or similar.

We'll know in about a month.

If Reading's embargo, in which they signed a player who earns around £120,000 a week, is anything to go by. It wont mean much.

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

If Reading's embargo, in which they signed a player who earns around £120,000 a week, is anything to go by. It wont mean much.

Reading have a possibly unique relationship with Chelsea- that's pretty abnormal, they've helped Reading out before at varied times- usually Embargoes severely restrict clubs.

Of more importance perhaps with Reading is why have they not been charged over FFP yet. EFL site says breached FFP Regs.

Under the terms of their breach, they are allowed to sign players on frees or loans- 1 year deals, to take them up to 24 players and their wage cap was £8,500 per week per player and I think they were allowed to sign 6,

It just so happened that Chelsea chose to subsidise a minimum of 90% of it- combined wages at that club are £170k per week- for Rahman and Drinkwater. 

Edited September 5, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[1960maaan]

I've pretty much given up with the powers that be.

If the EFL were a gate .....

 

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by 1960maaan

[downendcity]

28 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

I've pretty much given up with the powers that be.

If the EFL were a gate .....

If the EFL were a gate, this is Derby, Reading et al....

Edited September 5, 2021 by downendcity

[Mr Popodopolous]

EFL are attempting to right historic wrongs in some cases, though the Reading situation is baffling.

The treatment of the latter does seem to be significantly more favourable than Birmingham in 2018 though.

I have to wonder if the EFL only have capacity to pursue one Championship P&S/FFP case at a time. Seems that way in some respects.

Reading aside, it's strange really- fans of the club who are subject of this thread and have not far off as many offences to their name than the other 71 clubs put together, they or some of them anyway still complain bitterly that the EFL are unfair, have an agenda against them etc.

Edited September 5, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Possibly clutching at straws but one more bit to wonder about maybe.

EFL insolvency Regs don't just include the Club but Group Undertakings as well. Unsure how Parent Undertakings fit.

Were Sevco 5112 Limited to be struck off due to Non Submission how would this cross over?

Insolvency Event constitutes an automatic 12 point deduction. Could a compulsory strike off due to Non compliance be deemed an Insolvency Event and would Sevco 5112 Limited be applicable in any event?

[Hxj]

A compulsory strike off is not an insolvency event.

It won't happen as much as I am sure Her Majesty would enjoy owning and running a football club, would make a change from the racehorses

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Hxj said:

A compulsory strike off is not an insolvency event.

It won't happen as much as I am sure Her Majesty would enjoy owning and running a football club, would make a change from the racehorses

Oh, so Sevco 5112 Limited, Club DCFC Limited, Stadia DCFC Limited and Derby County FC Academy Limited if they got compulsorily struck off would have no consequences for the club?

No Golden share issues? Group, Parent, Subsidiary undertakings...

Club DCFC Limited is still trading at the very least, updates its Twitter daily.

[Hxj]

28 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

if they got compulsorily struck off would have no consequences for the club?

It would be a change in control event.  That said I doubt that the EFL would argue that Her Majesty in her Official capacity was not a 'Fit and Proper Person' 

[Bristol Rob]

1 hour ago, Hxj said:

It would be a change in control event.  That said I doubt that the EFL would argue that Her Majesty in her Official capacity was not a 'Fit and Proper Person' 

She'll put Andrew in charge.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Derby. Looks like the talks still ongoing.

It's not so much negotiations I expect as the EFL propose a Sanction and the Club have a period to decide whether to accept it- whereas rejection or ignoring the proposal escalates it back to an IDC.

I would expect it possible that an IDC would drag and surely Embargo sanctions would remain during said period- wonder how long it takes? January window?

I also assume this would be to cover the outstanding periods to 2019, the combined 2020 and 2021 average and to 2022- or at least the Business Plan with suspended deduction to keep the Club in check).

Working back to 2017? Could that be theoretically possible, but tbh the EFL have never mentioned it so...

Some on their forum still argue it's within FRS 102 btw- which is debatable and arguable probably.

Interesting line of argument from a couple as well- what they did didn't break the rules as such, but merely wasn't covered by the rules.

This post sums up a possibility EFL wise/

Seems to be under 85.4 and so on.

I think we can all safely agree, despite possible disagreements on other threads- Mel Morris is an arrogant POS who thinks he is above everything, esp the first 4 words- the arrogance of that line "wants the rules changing as we havn't broken any rules, just done them a different way".

As for the law courts, erm- terms of membership??

As for all that, whether the poster has any validity or basis in truth to their post is one thing but I certainly think Mel Morris is an arrogant POS. "Ill"- or was that a timely bit of PR!?

Edited September 8, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Key bit I forgot to add, should have written first tbh.

Derby's offences are down to 4- unsurprisingly they chose to pay the instalment that was due.

[Davefevs]

Saw that, just need Cardiff to pay for Sala now.

Re Derby proposed points deduction, think Percy put up another tweet saying 9 points plus 3 suspended.  But agree with you, a lot of people saying why are Derby getting to negotiate, I see it as the EFL have decided, and Derby need to accept or challenge it.  If they challenge it, it’s gonna drag on, they’ll be kept under sanction and run the risk of impacting January too

[Mr Popodopolous]

Agree with that.

Sala, Cardiff v Nantes all in the hands of the CAS atm. Could be wrong but wonder if all parties have to wait for that to conclude before the next move.

Little update on Derby. They've submitted at last 2021 Confirmation Statements for:

Club DCFC

Derby County FC Academy

Stadia DCFC

Plus CH says that for Sevco 5112 the 2020 one has now arrived.

Threat of strike off now gone, but don't think it was ever likely that the Club or ownership would have let it slide to strike off, I had a small conspiracy theory but not necessarily serious.

Likewise the two year Transfer Ban would have been hilarious but in reality they were likely to have paid up an instalment.

In both cases, needed to do something small to avoid the immiment big problems. They have.

On a general note, it is possible at least that I have misattributed certain aspects of Mel Morris any his actions as Machievellian as opposed to rank bad management.

Still think he has and has had plenty of cunning plans but these two bits of brinkmanship may not have been.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

Hahahaha

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58501958

Wayne Wooney whining again.

[chinapig]

18 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Hahahaha

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58501958

Wayne Wooney whining again.

The penalty for being Wayne Rooney's Derby County as the law requires Sky to televise their games as often as possible. Or something.

[Slippin cider]

Blues 1 up 

[Loco Rojo]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Hahahaha

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58501958

Wayne Wooney whining again.

You really would think he'd learn to keep his mouth shut and pick his battles given how lightly Derby have been punished.  Don't want to anger the Gods and all that (I appreciate the irony in that in this case, the FA Gods more of your fake Wizzard of Oz type God).

I guess he's still got a lot to learn  

[Slippin cider]

Blues 2 up ….