Derby County

[Lanterne Rouge]

Just now, Davefevs said:

I can only guess @Mr Popodopolousis either shithousing on the Derby forum or having the biggest w*** ever.

He`s signing up as MelMorrisNo1Fan as we speak!

[View from the Dolman]

EFL Statement:

Quote

 

With confirmation from Derby County Football Club that they have filed a notice of intention to appoint administrators, the EFL can tonight confirm that the Club will be subject to an insolvency event under the terms of the EFL’s Regulations.

As a result, the Club faces a 12-point deduction. 

Once the EFL has received formal notification of the application, the deduction will be applied. 

The EFL will in due course engage in discussions with the relevant parties with the aim of achieving a successful outcome for the long-term future for the Club.

The League is disappointed with the comments made by the Club in respect of COVID lending facilities. The EFL entered into a debt raise to provide its Clubs with access to funds that would support them in dealing with the impact of COVID and, as with any loan, this was subject to a timeframe and eligibility criteria which Derby County was unable to meet.

 

https://www.efl.com/news/2021/september/efl-statement-derby-county2

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, View from the Dolman said:

EFL Statement:

https://www.efl.com/news/2021/september/efl-statement-derby-county2

No sign of EFL sympathy there.

[Lanterne Rouge]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

No sign of EFL sympathy there.

I reckon old Mel`s shot himself in the foot whinging about the EFL loan, pissed them off big time.

[The Gasbuster]

3 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

I reckon old Mel`s shot himself in the foot whinging about the EFL loan, pissed them off big time.

Here’s hoping !

Punishment is way overdue in this case.

[downendcity]

1 hour ago, Marco the red said:

-12 for administration and potential additional-9 for efl breaches? Any ideas.

An additional -9 for changing their name from Frank Lampard’s Derby County to Wayne Rooney’s Derby County.

 

[Red Shadow]

Hope the EFL continue to come down hard on the cheats, however big a club thinks it is.

[Davefevs]

Not just fans…major impact on staff, their livelihoods at stake…just like Bolton.  Mel won't be struggling will he?

[BetterRedthanBlue]

13 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

I reckon old Mel`s shot himself in the foot whinging about the EFL loan, pissed them off big time.

As far as I'm aware no other owner has complained about it and I'm sure derby were offered the exact same terms as all the other clubs.

I do hope that the EFL give them the additional 9 points because the people running the club are in no other terms cheats.

I feel sorry for everyone else, the tea lady, the kit man, the chef's and all of these other people because a lot of them will probably lose their jobs as a result of this.

[Port Said Red]

31 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

EFL Statement:

https://www.efl.com/news/2021/september/efl-statement-derby-county2

 

30 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

No sign of EFL sympathy there.

 

27 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

I reckon old Mel`s shot himself in the foot whinging about the EFL loan, pissed them off big time.

Isn't it a lovely polite way of saying "would you lend someone money if they wouldn't agree to repay it in good time?" Good on the EFL for spelling it out so well.

[downendcity]

Remember all the bravado from Derby fans when the fiasco around the “sale” of Pride Park surfaced.

When it was realised they had broken no rules because of the EFL’s rules cock up,  I remember reading comments  from their fans boasting that Derby had cleared the sale with the EFL and that bleating by other clubs was just sour grapes. On one occasion, a fan suggested that Bristol City fans were jealous because we couldn't sell Ashton Gate in the same way. At the same time, many Derby fans defended criticism of their club’s actions and strategy with comments along the lines of “Mel Morris is a lifelong fan and would never do anything to jeopardise the club’s future”.

That went well, didn't it?!

Derby has now been hoist on it’s own petard. Morris did what many owners have done int he past, which is to throw money at attempting to gain promotion to the premier league, the financial rewards for which would recoup the expenditure and give him the return he wanted. Unfortunately, he attempted this under the ffp rules and when Lampard failed at the final hurdle the shit or bust chickens were coming home to roost.

It is now clear that while selling Pride Park might have papered over the ffp cracks, which I suspect many thought to be just paper money, the reality was that the club had real financial issues, which is why Morris has been trying to sell.

Ffp wasn't introduced to create a level playing field, or to somehow punish clubs like Derby. It was to prevent owners/clubs from over extending themselves trying to chase promotion and creating the sort of financial tsunami we saw in Portsmouth’s case. The irony therefore, is that there is a very strong chance that Derby would not be in the financial mess they now find themselves, had Morris not tried to cheat the EFL’s financial rules in order to gain an advantage over most championship clubs in his quest for promotion.

 

 

[Loderingo]

Feel sorry for Wycombe. Derby will be back eventually but Wycombe may not

[Red Shadow]

26 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Not just fans…major impact on staff, their livelihoods at stake…just like Bolton.  Mel won't be struggling will he?

That really is a sad consequence of the cheats. I just hope those affected vent their anger on the club's owner and not the EFL.

[Hxj]

Disappointed with the comments on here.

Yes Morris and Pearce took the proverbial but how sad for a once great club.  Lots of good people up here will be mourning tonight and worried about their jobs

[Wiltshire robin]

25 minutes ago, Loderingo said:

Feel sorry for Wycombe. Derby will be back eventually but Wycombe may not

To be fair Wycombe should never have got promoted in the first place but agree that derby should have gone instead

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Hxj said:

Disappointed with the comments on here.

Yes Morris and Pearce took the proverbial but how sad for a once great club.  Lots of good people up here will be mourning tonight and worried about their jobs

I think most people have added a comment to that effect.

[t_b]

17 minutes ago, Hxj said:

Disappointed with the comments on here.

Yes Morris and Pearce took the proverbial but how sad for a once great club.  Lots of good people up here will be mourning tonight and worried about their jobs

Because of shyster owners. 
 

If football doesn’t learn from the ongoing failures of clubs, how many in the future will suffer the same fate?

 

[downendcity]

11 minutes ago, tommy_b said:

Because of shyster owners. 
 

If football doesn’t learn from the ongoing failures of clubs, how many in the future will suffer the same fate?

It did learn from the Portsmouth collapse, which is why ffp was introduced - to try and prevent exactly this happening.

Morris/Derby chose to ignore/ride roughshod over the financial rules, hoping that cheating financially would secure promotion, the rewards  from which would balance the books and justify the financial exposure. Derby’s plight now would seem to not only justify the need for ffp rules to safeguard clubs from profligate owners, but that those rules need to be tightened and better enforced. 

[Port Said Red]

7 minutes ago, downendcity said:

It did learn from the Portsmouth collapse, which is why ffp was introduced - to try and prevent exactly this happening.

Morris/Derby chose to ignore/ride roughshod over the financial rules, hoping that cheating financially would secure promotion, the rewards  from which would balance the books and justify the financial exposure. Derby’s plight now would seem to not only justify the need for ffp rules to safeguard clubs from profligate owners, but that those rules need to be tightened and better enforced. 

And yet, as recently as Wednesday evening we had people on here advocating for SL to do something similar, like promotion would be a given if we just spent money outside of the rules.

[Davefevs]

52 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

And yet, as recently as Wednesday evening we had people on here advocating for SL to do something similar, like promotion would be a given if we just spent money outside of the rules.

I know.  Imagine 1982 again.

[Bristol Rob]

Quick question.

Has Mel run low on funds, or simply run out of ways to bend the rules?

By that, I mean is he committed to finding a safe pair of hands to take the club on, or does he just want shot regardless of the outcome.

[martnewts]

Some timing by Morris as furlough ends on 30 September, it would be interesting to know how many club staff (not players) have been still furloughed up to now and now that Morris will need to cover those wages going forward he has decided to pull the plug

[Mr Popodopolous]

Wow!

12 hrs ago I was merely pondering their FFP fate. Plus putting queries out there as to the professional standing and whether they could be playing fast and loose with injuries in order to have Baldock AND Kazim Richards for a time. I was looking forward to a possible -9 and 3 suspended plus Business Plan.

Looks like they have bigger issues now??

I thought admin might make it a harder sell but it might also eat into some debt...their Statement is something else however! A key bit that they neglect to mention is that the £8.3m is subject to EFL Regulations and compliance therein- particularly financial ones. Well we all know the answer to the compliance q...

I also forgot to add, it's repayable out of future broadcasting income/Solidarity Payments unless the deal changed- robbing Peter to pay Paul albeit a potential lifesaver all the same.

I saw it earlier when out briefly but my phone died.

I feel sympathy for the following:

• Staff- blameless in these business into admin type scenarios.
• The decent chunk of their fanbase.

I am sure that there will be more that I have not considered but sympathy to those too.

Not much though for those who were gloating as recently as July about EFL on strings, Mel is the man etc etc. Not least when it looked like the £30m Revaluation Reserve bit might change the picture again. Long memories- we all recall the Rooney signing, the stadium sale and leaseback, the gloating about how clever the club was, how bumbling the EFL were/are.

Clearly hope they don't go bust- that said, how must Wycombe be feeling now, the FFP can was kicked down the road and I guess so by the looks of it was the administration one!!

I'm not going to go into gloating but just remember this...

This is how it started.

This is how it's going.

On a dry and technical financial note, what of the MSD debt? That said they appear to have been very supportive based on the statement.

Keogh...would it not be a strong irony indeed if his debt was the tipping point. I doubt it was hefty enough to do that however.

Ironically, either of a) Volunteering for relegation ahead of Wycombe LAST season in exchange for everything and I mean everything wiped clean, stadium allowed to return to club ownership as part of the package etc along the lines of what @Hxj suggested, or b) Not pursuing the sale and leaseback and maybe reforming properly back then, that might have enabled them to take a better path- along the lines of what @downendcity has said at varied times.

Then again, Derby win one of the playoffs- in particular 2019- as it was the final- and he's the hero! The local fan owner who took them back up to the top flight. He didn't cut his losses though, he seemed to double down in some ways- Bielik, the 32Red Rooney deal, Cocu and his staff can't have been cheap, sacking Keogh was reckoned to be an attempt to shuffle FFP away- other attempts to possibly push amortisation away- see the new evidence EFL wanted admitting.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Couple more observations.

1. This surely doesn't annul the FFP situation. They can't surely throw it out of the window given how far the EFL have come.
2. Would Keogh now be classed as a football creditor.
3. Will any regulatory bodies be interested in the myriad of transactions and those involved- not least regarding those who signed off, namely the auditors, but also perhaps the directors and maybe even the valuers albeit the panel upheld that valuation but that transaction enabled further spending that could have been hard to sustain.
4. Given the flak he got, it's at least possible that with FFP + Admin- two cheers for Matt Hughes if it's accurate for he called 21 points albeit in somewhat of a different context!

Edited September 18, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Sir Geoff]

4 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Couple more observations.

1. This surely doesn't annul the FFP situation. They can't surely throw it out of the window given how far the EFL have come.
2. Would Keogh now be classed as a football creditor.
3. Will any regulatory bodies be interested in the myriad of transactions and those involved- not least regarding those who signed off, namely the auditors, but also perhaps the directors and maybe even the valuers albeit the panel upheld that valuation but that transaction enabled further spending that could have been hard to sustain.
4. Given the flak he got, it's at least possible that with FFP + Admin- two cheers for Matt Hughes if it's accurate for he called 21 points albeit in somewhat of a different context!

According to BBC sport this still ongoing and Derby still face a possible further 9 point deduction for breaches.

[BTRFTG]

44 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

According to BBC sport this still ongoing and Derby still face a possible further 9 point deduction for breaches.

It's doesn't annul but the cynic in me thinks Morris gambles the EFL are less likely to hit them with another sizeable points deduction after the administration penalty.

The EFL must punish them heavily. Even the disingenuous administration statement implies all this wasn't Derby's fault, it was others who connived to bring them low.

Nothing against Derby fans but if you are one and cheered and gloated the lying and shyster activities Morris promoted, then don't look for sympathy as you, too, are the problem.

[supercidered]

I don’t consider myself as a a bitter and twisted bloke. However, Derby being rogered senseless is the most pleasing thing for me since the sags were relegated at home by a team borrowing their away kit.

Everything coming home to roost at the same time. At this point it would be usual to feel for the fans but I don’t. My experience of them and their billy big bollocks attitude leaves me enjoying their discomfort. Off to League 1 you go Wayne and Mel. Good riddance. Maybe I am bitter and twisted after all !

 

[steviestevieneville]

As a fanbase , can we be bigger than a lot of other clubs fans. I’m sure forest, Leicester etc are revelling in the news of derby going into administration. Let’s not forget where we were in 1982 please. It’s always the fans that suffer. Anyone reading this that was alive back then & thought we’d have no club to wake up to . Just think back& remember how worrying that was. 

[Bristol Rob]

If buyers are thin on the ground, do League One accept teams in administration?

I'm thinking they probably do (Bolton were still on administration I think), but I have a feeling the Conference don't. Not that they are anywhere near that.

[steviestevieneville]

8 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

If buyers are thin on the ground, do League One accept teams in administration?

I'm thinking they probably do (Bolton were still on administration I think), but I have a feeling the Conference don't. Not that they are anywhere near that.

Conference don’t , you’re right . Football league are one entity though . 

[Major Isewater]

16 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

As a fanbase , can we be bigger than a lot of other clubs fans. I’m sure forest, Leicester etc are revelling in the news of derby going into administration. Let’s not forget where we were in 1982 please. It’s always the fans that suffer. Anyone reading this that was alive back then & thought we’d have no club to wake up to . Just think back& remember how worrying that was. 

Isewater Junior ,Senior ,was born in Derby ( error number 1) and is a dyed in the wool ( pun intended) Rams fan.( error number 2 from me) he is devastated with the threat of Derby folding.

IMHO , they will suck it up and come back stronger in the near future. The club , brand if you like , is too strong to be ignored by the vultures who circle around our football world looking for trinkets.

For all his failures I am really grateful for Uncle Steve and his stewardship of our club.

 

[iamalagerdrinker]

Is it possible for Derby to do a Bury? 

[chinapig]

6 minutes ago, iamalagerdrinker said:

Is it possible for Derby to do a Bury? 

Probably not. I certainly hope not.

But let's face it, there were 5 minutes of crocodile tears in the football media over Bury's demise then they were forgotten.

Will football ever get it's financial act together unless a major club goes to the wall is the question I keep coming back to.

[BTRFTG]

50 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

As a fanbase , can we be bigger than a lot of other clubs fans. I’m sure forest, Leicester etc are revelling in the news of derby going into administration. Let’s not forget where we were in 1982 please. It’s always the fans that suffer. Anyone reading this that was alive back then & thought we’d have no club to wake up to . Just think back& remember how worrying that was. 

There's a world of difference in being 'incompetently run' & 'being incompetently run whilst actively cheating & seeking to blame anybody other than oneself for that failure'.

Therein lies the difference between 1982 & Derby under Morris.

And whilst many (myself included) believe SL contravenes the 'spirit' of FFP (not that's worth much,) they also tend to be those not clamouring for new, expensive & unrealistic signings, or those who throw their toys out the pram when results take a downturn.

City exist because SL has very deep pockets, not you'd know that from much of the abuse & delusion City muppets throw his way.

 

[Simon bristol]

12 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Probably not. I certainly hope not.

But let's face it, there were 5 minutes of crocodile tears in the football media over Bury's demise then they were forgotten.

Will football ever get it's financial act together unless a major club goes to the wall is the question I keep coming back to.

Im sure it wont, you only need to see what happened to barcelona to see even the biggest clubs can mess it up, and paris were there to sign up everyone they could. I believe schalke have messed up too, plenty in russia and china as well

[Port Said Red]

I wonder if the players know what figures were added to their blank contracts yet?

Will the administrators have any say in what those figures are going forward?

[steviestevieneville]

21 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

There's a world of difference in being 'incompetently run' & 'being incompetently run whilst actively cheating & seeking to blame anybody other than oneself for that failure'.

Therein lies the difference between 1982 & Derby under Morris.

And whilst many (myself included) believe SL contravenes the 'spirit' of FFP (not that's worth much,) they also tend to be those not clamouring for new, expensive & unrealistic signings, or those who throw their toys out the pram when results take a downturn.

City exist because SL has very deep pockets, not you'd know that from much of the abuse & delusion City muppets throw his way.

 

I agree but I’m just looking at it from a fans perspective. As a club derby deserve everything they get, but like us they have no say in how the clubs run. 
How SL (footballing wise) has run us I’m critical of but not financially if that makes sense. That for another day though 

[steviestevieneville]

The betting company that paid for Rooneys wages as a player. Are they still actively involved ? 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, BTRFTG said:

It's doesn't annul but the cynic in me thinks Morris gambles the EFL are less likely to hit them with another sizeable points deduction after the administration penalty.

The EFL must punish them heavily. Even the disingenuous administration statement implies all this wasn't Derby's fault, it was others who connived to bring them low.

Nothing against Derby fans but if you are one and cheered and gloated the lying and shyster activities Morris promoted, then don't look for sympathy as you, too, are the problem.

Having looked up the rules I think the exact opposite.

MM wants to sell and sell quick.  Knows he’s gonna get 9 point deduction.  Derby likely to be in amongst the relegation battle anyway.  9 points lost could be the tipping point.  New buyers are gonna be very sceptical about the price of a Championship club with threat of relegation.  So, go into Administration, take minus 21 and that confirms relegation.  They don’t have a squad capable of 65+ points (44+) that might save them, least of all if the Administrators start selling assets.  So the sell becomes a clean League One proposition…and Mel hopes they find new buyers quickly.  He’s intimated as such.  New owners get to keep some of the squad together.

Thats my opinion.  Not sure if it makes sense or not.  What do you reckon?

[chinapig]

4 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

I agree but I’m just looking at it from a fans perspective. As a club derby deserve everything they get, but like us they have no say in how the clubs run. 
How SL (footballing wise) has run us I’m critical of but not financially if that makes sense. That for another day though 

According to the BBC Derby's wage bill went from £16m in 2014 to £47m in 2018.

Now look at our accounts over the Ashton period to see how our wage bill ballooned. Steve was asleep at the wheel and we are now paying the price.

Steve doesn't cheat like Morris but it's possible to sleep walk into FFP problems if you don't keep a tight control over costs.

[steviestevieneville]

12 minutes ago, chinapig said:

According to the BBC Derby's wage bill went from £16m in 2014 to £47m in 2018.

Now look at our accounts over the Ashton period to see how our wage bill ballooned. Steve was asleep at the wheel and we are now paying the price.

Steve doesn't cheat like Morris but it's possible to sleep walk into FFP problems if you don't keep a tight control over costs.

This is true , I’ll back track on SL’s running of the club under Ashton. 
The worst thing for me is Ashton came in as consultant , obviously recruitment wise in 2012-13 and presided over one of the most lopsided squads we’ve ever had under mcciines. Lansdown then reappointed him after Kieth Burt along with SOD & cotts had righted the ship . Unbelievable really . 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

This is true , I’ll back track on SL’s running of the club under Ashton. 
The worst thing for me is Ashton came in as consultant , obviously recruitment wise in 2012-13 and presided over one of the most lopsided squads we’ve ever had under mcciines. Lansdown then reappointed him after Kieth Burt along with SOD & cotts had righted the ship . Unbelievable really . 

Out of interest, what do you reckon SL does with the snake oil Ashton sold him?

[BTRFTG]

55 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Having looked up the rules I think the exact opposite.

MM wants to sell and sell quick.  Knows he’s gonna get 9 point deduction.  Derby likely to be in amongst the relegation battle anyway.  9 points lost could be the tipping point.  New buyers are gonna be very sceptical about the price of a Championship club with threat of relegation.  So, go into Administration, take minus 21 and that confirms relegation.  They don’t have a squad capable of 65+ points (44+) that might save them, least of all if the Administrators start selling assets.  So the sell becomes a clean League One proposition…and Mel hopes they find new buyers quickly.  He’s intimated as such.  New owners get to keep some of the squad together.

Thats my opinion.  Not sure if it makes sense or not.  What do you reckon?

Statement  (believe it if you will as it  contains other garbage,) states there are 'no buyers' on the horizon.

Going into administration kicks in the farcical 'Alcatel' standoff of having to wait 28 days for supporters to dream of emptying the chump change from the back of their sofas or struggling with the math of how many shirts they'd need to sell to turn things around, all before concluding they have nowhere near enough to fund the academy let alone the football club.

There's also the added complication of the ground. Haven't read the full statement so assume the company holding the ground isn't in administration, though that's somewhat moot given it'll receive little income whilst the club is. So assume any buyer would have to tie up deals not only with the administrator but also Morris and there's your first problem for starters . There's great danger in  buying the club without the ground but none if buying the ground not giving two hoots for the club. Suppose Morris is offered a far better return for the latter, where does that leave the administrator to go in finding a buyer for the club?

Edited September 18, 2021 by BTRFTG

[BTRFTG]

49 minutes ago, chinapig said:

According to the BBC Derby's wage bill went from £16m in 2014 to £47m in 2018.

Which is odd as during that period Derby's employees were drastically reduced according to their accounts.

Save they weren't, rather in breaking with accounting convention they shipped folks out to various entities then failed to roll up the wholly owned subsidiaries figures into the controlling company accounts. In truth the headcount increased, hence the numbers you report, but which Derby's accounts did not.

Derby & Morris deserve all that's coming home to roost.

[steviestevieneville]

43 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Out of interest, what do you reckon SL does with the snake oil Ashton sold him?

It’s genuinely amazing Dave . This is a self made billionaire , not some idiot . I’ve said it before & I’ll always say it . He knows absolutely nothing about football . He was never a football man . The only managerial appointment he’s got right was Gary Johnson . Apart from that he’s surrounded himself with nodding dogs . 

[Davefevs]

42 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Statement  (believe it if you will as it  contains other garbage,) states there are 'no buyers' on the horizon.

Going into administration kicks in the farcical 'Alcatel' standoff of having to wait 28 days for supporters to dream of emptying the chump change from the back of their sofas or struggling with the math of how many shirts they'd need to sell to turn things around, all before concluding they have nowhere near enough to fund the academy let alone the football club.

There's also the added complication of the ground. Haven't read the full statement so assume the company holding the ground isn't in administration, though that's somewhat moot given it'll receive little income whilst the club is. So assume any buyer would have to tie up deals not only with the administrator but also Morris and there's your first problem for starters . There's great danger in  buying the club without the ground but none if buying the ground not giving two hoots for the club. Suppose Morris is offered a far better return for the latter, where does that leave the administrator to go in finding a buyer for the club?

Ta….I’ve no idea who owns the ground anymore, or whether it’s part of the myriad of companies included in the administration as per the statement.

Big question, who will buy the club without the ground?

25 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

It’s genuinely amazing Dave . This is a self made billionaire , not some idiot . I’ve said it before & I’ll always say it . He knows absolutely nothing about football . He was never a football man . The only managerial appointment he’s got right was Gary Johnson . Apart from that he’s surrounded himself with nodding dogs . 

Agree…..I’m also grateful for his backing / sensible backing, but he’s made some big mistakes too.

[MC RISK77]

There’s chasing a dream, then there is just irresponsible people running a club. Be careful what you wish for.

[big dosser]

2 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

There's a world of difference in being 'incompetently run' & 'being incompetently run whilst actively cheating & seeking to blame anybody other than oneself for that failure'.

Therein lies the difference between 1982 & Derby under Morris.

And whilst many (myself included) believe SL contravenes the 'spirit' of FFP (not that's worth much,) they also tend to be those not clamouring for new, expensive & unrealistic signings, or those who throw their toys out the pram when results take a downturn.

City exist because SL has very deep pockets, not you'd know that from much of the abuse & delusion City muppets throw his way.

 

spot on sir i for one can never understand why sl gets abuse one of the best chairman in the country

[Port Said Red]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Out of interest, what do you reckon SL does with the snake oil Ashton sold him?

The thing is, like a lot of placebo's there was a period where it looked like it was working, even some of his fervent detractors have admitted as much.

In those circumstances, when things start to go wrong, it's easy to persuaded that it's this period that is out of the norm rather than the previous good period.

By the time the con is in, running them out of town looks like locking the stable after the horse has bolted.

Clearly the main thing to take from this post is that I have watched too many westerns and episodes of the High Chapparel than is healthy.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Port Said Red

[Kodjias Wrist]

Feel so sorry for the Derby fans.

[steviestevieneville]

33 minutes ago, MC RISK77 said:

There’s chasing a dream, then there is just irresponsible people running a club. Be careful what you wish for.

There’s being careful what you wish for & actually just being better at what you’re doing 

[steviestevieneville]

38 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Ta….I’ve no idea who owns the ground anymore, or whether it’s part of the myriad of companies included in the administration as per the statement.

Big question, who will buy the club without the ground?

Agree…..I’m also grateful for his backing / sensible backing, but he’s made some big mistakes too.

Yes, I’m grateful of course . However it’s very Bristol City to get a billionaire owner who keeps having his pants pulled down football wise. 

[Bristol Rob]

37 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

Big question, who will buy the club without the ground?

I think Mark Goldberg somehow bought Palace from Ron Noades (with money loaned to him by Noades) - but that didn't include the ground.

 

[old_eastender]

12 minutes ago, Kodjias Wrist said:

Feel so sorry for the Derby fans.

oh yeah, gutted  

[Bristol Rob]

14 minutes ago, Kodjias Wrist said:

Feel so sorry for the Derby fans.

I wouldn't.

Most of them seem to think it's jealousy and they have done nothing wrong as the EFL said something about something, and anyway, they have Rooney and it's that Gibson bloke at Boro who is the problem and so what if we sold the stadium, that's just being clever... oh, and we are untouchable and Mel is a fan....

Seriously, for those who could see the problems approaching, yes; they have my sympathy. But for the bullish who claimed all manner of reasons why this couldn't happen to them because a mate down the pub is self employed and knows about business... less so.

[Lanterne Rouge]

The people who we should really feel sorry for are all the local suppliers and contractors who now won`t get paid.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Lot of q's about the ground.

The Ground (and Training Ground) for that matter, MSD loaned cash to the club. Was secured against these and everything tbh.

By everything I mean the charges appeared over the following companies:

1) The Derby County Football Club Limited

2) Club DCFC Limited

3) The Derby County FC Academy Limited

4) Stadia DCFC Limited

5) Sevco 5112 Limited

6) Gellaw Newco 203 Limited

Ah that still doesn't cover the ground.

Good thing then that it also seems to appear on.

1) Gellaw Newco 202 Limited- The company listed as owning the ground.

2) Gellaw Newco 204 Limited- The company who control the company who own the ground.

All ultimately under Mel.

@BTRFTG 

Interesting you should mention that. What happened was that in 2015/16 when he took over, as I'm sure you know that's when Sevco 5112, Club DCFC, The Derby County FC Academy and Stadia DCFC all appeared, effective from 2016/17.

However because 2016/17 was 10 months for Sevco and 12 for the club, 2017/18 this is the best comparison.

What appears to have happened is that the, and again hard to compare 2016/17, so 2017/18. Anyway the club included all the revenue from all the new subsidiaries in their accounts but additional costs and employees, perhaps even some existing ones appeared in Sevco 5112. Hence a £15m or so loss gap on roughly the same income.

How can the club include that in their accounts when those subsidiaries like them is/was under Sevco 5112 and not the club directly.

I'm actually surprised it's lawful and above board but there we are. True and fair reflection??

@steviestevieneville

The thing about sympathy for the fans, to a point of course but what about those who were gloating persistently, EFL on strings, we're untouchable etc etc. For those my sympathy is more mixed, they after all were passively happy with the overspending but actively revelling in the methods used in pursuit of it. (Not all obviously but online seemingly a sizeable minority).

Edited September 18, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Ostrich]

With us having been there in 2002 and hours away from going out of business, albeit I am only just old enough to really remember it, I should have more sympathy for their fans but none at all really. Of course, nobody should lose their club, I hope it doesn't come to that. I've felt sorry for Cov fans with some of the stuff they've been through in recent year and I'm not actually displeased to see them doing alright again, despite growing up disliking them far more than Derby. But the fans fell hook, line and sinker for the owners rubbish and repeatedly gave it the biggun, they refused they refused to believe it could end badly, they refused to believe they could be punished, they decided it was a conspiracy against them, they've gone fully down the victimhood route, they thought they'd won the jackpot with the Sheikh despite everyone else telling them otherwise. It's been pure delusion all the way along, it must be something in the water in the northern half of the East Midlands.
Tbf, the only point I feel sorry for them on is that we also had a supposed FFP transgression (in much different circumstances) but got away with it by getting up and out.

Of course the people to feel sorry for are the ordinary people that will lose their jobs and the small creditors who will get stuffed over. There's really only one man to blame and Derby fans expended so much energy defending him it almost became a cult. 

Good thing for them is that they might hopefully be able to take Notts with them. Having the Brian Clough Trophy is about the only point of either club atm.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Ostrich

[Buster Footman's T shirt]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Having looked up the rules I think the exact opposite.

MM wants to sell and sell quick.  Knows he’s gonna get 9 point deduction.  Derby likely to be in amongst the relegation battle anyway.  9 points lost could be the tipping point.  New buyers are gonna be very sceptical about the price of a Championship club with threat of relegation.  So, go into Administration, take minus 21 and that confirms relegation.  They don’t have a squad capable of 65+ points (44+) that might save them, least of all if the Administrators start selling assets.  So the sell becomes a clean League One proposition…and Mel hopes they find new buyers quickly.  He’s intimated as such.  New owners get to keep some of the squad together.

Thats my opinion.  Not sure if it makes sense or not.  What do you reckon?

Nail on head. Derby with a clean slate and fresh start in league one must be an attractive proposition although no guarantees as league one looks to be getting ever more competitive 

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, Buster Footman's T shirt said:

Nail on head. Derby with a clean slate and fresh start in league one must be an attractive proposition although no guarantees as league one looks to be getting ever more competitive 

Talk of a 2 year transfer embargo too. Not so attractive

[Bristol Rob]

Just now, Davefevs said:

Talk of a 2 year transfer embargo too. Not so attractive

I struggle to read the word 'embargo' without thinking of Canadian rapper at patois speaker, Snow.

Licky boom-boom down.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

I struggle to read the word 'embargo' without thinking of Canadian rapper at patois speaker, Snow.

Licky boom-boom down.

I drink it in the Congo!!!

[chinapig]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Talk of a 2 year transfer embargo too. Not so attractive

Does the embargo get dropped if the club comes out of administration?

And, taking Reading's recruitment as an example, is an embargo entirely meaningful anyway?

[Desso]

3 hours ago, big dosser said:

spot on sir i for one can never understand why sl gets abuse one of the best chairman in the country

But he's not chairman, or have I missed something?

[View from the Dolman]

Rooney in an interview with Sky Sports saying he learned of last night's developments by watching it on Sky. You'd think somebody from the board would have given him the heads up between the filing and the statement being released several hours later. 

[REDOXO]

Wycombe must be gutted

[BTRFTG]

8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Lot of q's about the ground.

The Ground (and Training Ground) for that matter, MSD loaned cash to the club. Was secured against these and everything tbh.

By everything I mean the charges appeared over the following companies:

1) The Derby County Football Club Limited

2) Club DCFC Limited

3) The Derby County FC Academy Limited

4) Stadia DCFC Limited

5) Sevco 5112 Limited

6) Gellaw Newco 203 Limited

Ah that still doesn't cover the ground.

Good thing then that it also seems to appear on.

1) Gellaw Newco 202 Limited- The company listed as owning the ground.

2) Gellaw Newco 204 Limited- The company who control the company who own the ground.

All ultimately under Mel.

@BTRFTG 

Interesting you should mention that. What happened was that in 2015/16 when he took over, as I'm sure you know that's when Sevco 5112, Club DCFC, The Derby County FC Academy and Stadia DCFC all appeared, effective from 2016/17.

However because 2016/17 was 10 months for Sevco and 12 for the club, 2017/18 this is the best comparison.

What appears to have happened is that the, and again hard to compare 2016/17, so 2017/18. Anyway the club included all the revenue from all the new subsidiaries in their accounts but additional costs and employees, perhaps even some existing ones appeared in Sevco 5112. Hence a £15m or so loss gap on roughly the same income.

How can the club include that in their accounts when those subsidiaries like them is/was under Sevco 5112 and not the club directly.

I'm actually surprised it's lawful and above board but there we are. True and fair reflection??

@steviestevieneville

The thing about sympathy for the fans, to a point of course but what about those who were gloating persistently, EFL on strings, we're untouchable etc etc. For those my sympathy is more mixed, they after all were passively happy with the overspending but actively revelling in the methods used in pursuit of it. (Not all obviously but online seemingly a sizeable minority).

Caveat Emptor.

For example, there's nothing illegal in accounting practice in switching amortisation method from flatline to ERV provided one makes clear in the accounts what method one's using. After all, in the end one gets to the same place. Accounts are not designed to be an absolute, accredited statement of value/liability at a single point in time, rather give a reflective snapshot against the assumptions listed.  It's 'read the small print'.

I believe Derby did exactly the above with player values to squeeze £20m or so from one year's accounts to the next hence no surprise when 3 or 4 years later the chickens (and write-offs) came home to roost.

With most football intangibles 'True & Fair' is almost impossible to value. I'm sure most Gasheads would say their club title is worth 7 figures. As most realise that's figures AFTER the decimal point.

 

[BTRFTG]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Big question, who will buy the club without the ground?

I'm tempted to say Mark Goldberg....

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Caveat Emptor.

For example, there's nothing illegal in accounting practice in switching amortisation method from flatline to ERV provided one makes clear in the accounts what method one's using. After all, in the end one gets to the same place. Accounts are not designed to be an absolute, accredited statement of value/liability at a single point in time, rather give a reflective snapshot against the assumptions listed.  It's 'read the small print'.

I believe Derby did exactly the above with player values to squeeze £20m or so from one year's accounts to the next hence no surprise when 3 or 4 years later the chickens (and write-offs) came home to roost.

With most football intangibles 'True & Fair' is almost impossible to value. I'm sure most Gasheads would say their club title is worth 7 figures. As most realise that's figures AFTER the decimal point.

 

Erm, I think we're cross purposes here possibly- definitely the amortisation issue is sketchy but to the same place? Yes...unless as the EFL seemed to believe they were attempting varied wheezes to try and get the amortisation excluded from the calculations entirely- see the New Evidence cases.

I get the principle, kicking the can down the road to a more convenient time. The cases in q where the EFL seemed to believe/seem to believe that there was more to it. 

https://www.efl.com/contentassets/873a8914e09740d3b3a8848131ea10b8/efl-v-derby-county---decision-on-new-evidence.pdf

https://www.efl.com/contentassets/873a8914e09740d3b3a8848131ea10b8/efl-v-derby-county---de-novo-decision.pdf

What I was referring to though was something fairly different.

 

Club

Consolidated.

Club

Consolidated.

Strong similarity in turnover in and of itself, breakdown of said turnover. albeit some differences too..however the costs are miraculously lower. £15-16m lower.

Employees.

Club

Consolidated.

Now for FFP it all computes out as it is the consolidated accounts that the EFL would use and rightly so...

The (highly slimmed down) accounts for Club DCFC, The Derby County FC Academy and Stadia DCFC show the following to be the case...

A point that I am probably missing here is this- what is the benefit of including that revenue in the club specific accounts but the costs ultimately appear albeit not itemised in the Sevco 5112 anyway? EFL use the latter for FFP or have done, so I'm wondering what the purpose is- we can see it's clearly not under the club directly in all 3 cases.

In the year of 2018, the losses of these 3 companies ie total P&L - 2017=2018 appear to equate to not far off the gap between the club and the consolidated accounts losses- talking 2018 in isolation.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Lanterne Rouge]

Not sure if I`ve missed this on the thread but Colin Murray just said on the Quest re-run that the nine point deduction for accounting issues has already been agreed with the EFL so the 21 point deduction will apply.

It looks like the `selling the club debt-free in League 1` scenario is what will happen. Still leaves them with the two year admin embargo though. I wonder (if Rooney stays) how many Man Utd youngsters will rock up on loan?