Derby County

[BTRFTG]

7 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Erm, I think we're cross purposes here possibly- definitely the amortisation issue is sketchy but to the same place? Yes...unless as the EFL seemed to believe they were attempting varied wheezes to try and get the amortisation excluded from the calculations entirely- see the New Evidence cases.

I get the principle, kicking the can down the road to a more convenient time. The cases in q where the EFL seemed to believe/seem to believe that there was more to it. 

https://www.efl.com/contentassets/873a8914e09740d3b3a8848131ea10b8/efl-v-derby-county---decision-on-new-evidence.pdf

https://www.efl.com/contentassets/873a8914e09740d3b3a8848131ea10b8/efl-v-derby-county---de-novo-decision.pdf

What I was referring to though was something fairly different.

 

Club

Consolidated.

Club

Consolidated.

Strong similarity in turnover in and of itself, breakdown of said turnover. albeit some differences too..however the costs are miraculously lower. £15-16m lower.

Employees.

Club

Consolidated.

Now for FFP it all computes out as it is the consolidated accounts that the EFL would use and rightly so...

The (highly slimmed down) accounts for Club DCFC, The Derby County FC Academy and Stadia DCFC show the following to be the case...

A point that I am probably missing here is this- what is the benefit of including that revenue in the club specific accounts but the costs ultimately appear albeit not itemised in the Sevco 5112 anyway? EFL use the latter for FFP or have done, so I'm wondering what the purpose is- we can see it's clearly not under the club directly in all 3 cases.

In the year of 2018, the losses of these 3 companies ie total P&L - 2017=2018 appear to equate to not far off the gap between the club and the consolidated accounts losses- talking 2018 in isolation.

Haven't looked into it in detail but wasn't it suggested the difference in costs related to the differential accounting periods Derby decided to deploy when establishing the various subsidiaries? Again it's robbing Peter to pay Paul for short term improvement. In the end it'll all catch up.

[Waconda]

5 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Haven't looked into it in detail but wasn't it suggested the difference in costs related to the differential accounting periods Derby decided to deploy when establishing the various subsidiaries? Again it's robbing Peter to pay Paul for short term improvement. In the end it'll all catch up.

Neo Liberal Capitalism you could say !

[Hxj]

I am struggling to see how DCFC can survive at all, let alone until a buyer is found.  This is significantly more complex than other recent insolvency events.

Who is going to fund the ongoing cash cost of the club?

For how long are they going to do so?

Would a failure to pay the players in September result in the 3 point suspended penalty being activated?

Are MSD (who once the administrations of DCFC and the parent are formalised - which is probably a default event) going to exercise their rights to everything, including the shares in the football club? 

Can MSD recover more from a Liquidation than they can from a fire sale?

How will the football creditors be paid to allow the 'share' in the EFL to be transferred?

How much cash is the buyer or Morris going to need to stop the otherwise inevititable liquidation?  £20 million plus a £1 to 2 million a month?  £30 million plus £2 to £3 million a month?

What do you do about the onging FFP issues?

What about the 12 point penalty?

How do you keep your best (or any) players in January with a 20 point deduction?

If you really wanted a football club could you get the likes of Barnsley, Wigan, Preston, or Sheffield Wednesday for less and significantly less hassle?

 

Edited September 19, 2021 by Hxj

[chinapig]

Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive comes to mind. To think Morris and those Derby fans who cheered him on thought it was terribly clever.

The Administrators are going to have a hell of a job untangling that web. Is there a real possibility that there will be no club to sell and that they could end up like Bury?

[Davefevs]

This is the key bit for me:

 

@BigTone condensed version.

Cheating bastards - got caught.

 

[Hxj]

Morris just admitted on Radio Derby that resubmitted accounts breach FFP for 2017/18.

That is a watershed moment.

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Hxj said:

Morris just admitted on Radio Derby that resubmitted accounts breach FFP for 2017/18.

That is a watershed moment.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Finally!!

Might listen to interview, if it's on catchup as it could be interesting.

Have read that a) The breach to 2018 was £4m. That's a 4 point deduction and b) Surely to 2019 and beyond there would be FFP/P&S issues?

I should add as well, his £1.5m per month thing is still ambiguous although I'd have to listen to the interview in case he clarifies in full.

A) Is it £1-1.5m a month in CASH losses?

B) Is it the CLUB in isolation or Consolidated to which he is referring? Remember the latter is the assessment point for FFP.

C) See point A, that doesn't distinguish between cash losses and the Profit and Loss account.

D) Also following up on B, in 2017/18- in 2015/16 the subsidiaries and Sevco 5112 weren't so relevant and in 2016/17 it was 10 month accounts for Sevco 5112, and 12 month for the club so. It's hard to get a fair comparison.

Like I said before, all the revenue of Club DCFC etc in the club, but the costs associated with said revenue in Sevco largely. I wonder if he's using that criteria for his £1-1.5m per month.

[BTRFTG]

I thought Derby had until the end of August to submit revised accounts for 3 reporting periods to the EFL. I know the were late and granted an extension but does anybody know:

Have they now been submitted?

Are they to be made public, or does the EFL have eyes only for a period and we only find out detail from their considered report?

Are the revised accounts to be filed at Companies House, or if the previously filed accounts were legal is it the case the new ones simply reflect demands required of standards by the EFL?

[chinapig]

39 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

I thought Derby had until the end of August to submit revised accounts for 3 reporting periods to the EFL. I know the were late and granted an extension but does anybody know:

Have they now been submitted?

Are they to be made public, or does the EFL have eyes only for a period and we only find out detail from their considered report?

Are the revised accounts to be filed at Companies House, or if the previously filed accounts were legal is it the case the new ones simply reflect demands required of standards by the EFL?

From the Derby Telegraph:

The initial deadline for the club to complete this progress was Wednesday, August 18, although the EFL has now said in a statement that "constructive discussions" have led to that deadline being extended to Tuesday, August 24.

Edited September 19, 2021 by chinapig

[Hxj]

28 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Have they now been submitted?

Yes - along with further information

29 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Are the revised accounts to be filed at Companies House

Probably not - normally when submitting the accounts for the next year you would simply show all the adjustments in the previous year's figures used as comparables in the latest accounts.  So when submitting the 2019 accounts  you would adjust the 2018 accounts including all errors from all previous years and use those adjusted figures as the comparables, with a pile of notes to explain.

43 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

if the previously filed accounts were legal is it the case the new ones simply reflect demands required of standards by the EFL?

Companies House, The Companies Acts, HMRC and the EFL all require accounts to be submitted in line with the same standards - in this case FRS102.  Derby did not comply with that standard.

[BetterRedthanBlue]

Right so they have breached FFP for possibly numerous years will they be punished for that as well as the 21 points from administration and the EFL thing.

[Port Said Red]

The important question out of all of this must be......

Have any of their fans offered @Mr Popodopolous an apology yet?

[BTRFTG]

2 minutes ago, Hxj said:

Yes - along with further information

Probably not - normally when submitting the accounts for the next year you would simply show all the adjustments in the previous year's figures used as comparables in the latest accounts.  So when submitting the 2019 accounts  you would adjust the 2018 accounts including all errors from all previous years and use those adjusted figures as the comparables, with a pile of notes to explain.

Companies House, The Companies Acts, HMRC and the EFL all require accounts to be submitted in line with the same standards - in this case FRS102.  Derby did not comply with that standard.

Thanks, though I'm still unclear whether the accounts are public (one imagines they'd need to be if a buyer is being sought)?

I also thought the accounts submitted to Companies House were compliant to that standard, though as you'll know there are many variables one may flex within the standard (for good reason) as to reporting periods, methods of valuation and assessment et al, all with the caveat you've explained what you've done and why? My understanding was Derby sought to play the 'three card trick', keeping variations in periods and methodology moving, divesting to newly created subsidiaries, splitting/transferring assets within the group such unless you're a forensic accountant it's difficult to see the wood for the trees.

I'm no accountant but struggle ,(the amortization change, for example,) to understand if the accounting standard is followed why the overall and true position wouldn't materialise eventually?  Some suggest Derby sought to omit player write downs but I've never seen an explanation as to how they would eventually be able so to do?

[Bristol Rob]

So Wycombe were royally screwed by both the EFL and Derby then.

[Mr Popodopolous]

35 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

So Wycombe were royally screwed by both the EFL and Derby then.

Blame Derby mainly- the EFL wanted to relegate them by their own admission- they could not get the relevant info in time for a variety of reasons, a mix of delaying tactics by Derby, in and out of lockdown, and maybe even the whole wanting to admit new info and Gibson's intervention- this all took up valuable time! Daily Mail also said Derby knew there was a race against the clock and that they were using procedural defences to stall, buy time- one possible reason for the strategy taken there would be to seek to ensure Derby can be sold as a Championship club not a League One club.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Bristol Rob]

10 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Blame Derby mainly- the EFL wanted to relegate them by their own admission- they could not get the relevant info in time for a variety of reasons, a mix of delaying tactics by Derby, in and out of lockdown, and maybe even the whole wanting to admit new info and Gibson's intervention- this all took up valuable time! Daily Mail also said Derby knew there was a race against the clock and that they were using procedural defences to stall, buy time- one possible reason for the strategy taken there would be to seek to ensure Derby can be sold as a Championship club not a League One club.

And to bring in several million in solidarity payments.

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

And to bring in several million in solidarity payments.

Good point- had forgotten about that!

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Port Said Red said:

The important question out of all of this must be......

Have any of their fans offered @Mr Popodopolous an apology yet?

@Hxj too, he's called things very nicely.

Matt Hughes and Kieran Maguire, possibly Nixon- a lot of doubters on their forum about this lot...and talking of their forum, some are quite bullish in varied aspects- I'm paraphrasing but.

1. Offer HMRC a settlement, which would be £10m of the £26m debt as the alternative is we go bust and you get zero.
2. MSD might yet be the new owners which means no admin.
3. Take it to court.
4. Queries as to whether Cocu and his staff would be classed as football creditors.

PS to anyone on DCFCFans who thinks I'm glad about admin, not necessarily but a points deduction is long overdue. Should have been last season really.

It also shows the importance of staying within the P&S Regs- stay within them and maybe your club won't run into issues.

I've said it before and I'll say it again but I have sympathy for the following:

1. Low paid and medium paid blameless staff. (That said, would the accounting dept at DCFC not have some degree of culpability here??)
2. The usual array of small local businesses who may well be DCFC fans- some will likely be screwed over, St Johns Ambulance too maybe- always happens with clubs who go into admin.
3. The fans- or should that be the fans who weren't revelling in the EFL on strings and so on- how can one feel sympathy for those who laud cheating?
4. Wycombe Wanderers.

Clearly no sympathy for Mel Morris, Stephen Pearce- those fans who were gloating, not only about the cash but the ways in which the loopholes were being exploited- it's difficult to feel sympathy for them with a straight face.

Not been to Pride Park before but it might be worth a trip this season.

Also forgot to add, if Gellaw Newco 202 and Gellaw Newco 204 don't go into admin then surely the administrators and MSD don't, provided repayments kept up, get to access the ground.

Some Derby fans are suggesting that he should gift it back or sell it at a low rate but can't see the EFL accepting that willingly given a) The £81.1m sale price which was defended at great length and b) The fact that there is a 25 or was it 20 year lease on it, effective from 2018/19.

Would make an absolute mockery of the initial valuation and the vehement defence of it...EFL have the right to revisit cases etc if required. I understand 3rd party vs RPTs etc but the EFL would not accept that I'm sure, maybe as part of a final settlement.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[RedorDead BCFC]

On 18/09/2021 at 16:00, View from the Dolman said:

Rooney in an interview with Sky Sports saying he learned of last night's developments by watching it on Sky. You'd think somebody from the board would have given him the heads up between the filing and the statement being released several hours later. 

They probably thought it would be easier for him to see it on TV so Coleen can explain it to him. 

[Lanterne Rouge]

Just reading the thread on their forum about the Mel Morris interview today on Radio Derby. It sounds a bit of a car crash.

[Hxj]

2 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

I also thought the accounts submitted to Companies House were compliant to that standard

Nope - they failed to correctly account for the amortisation on the player contracts - they used a methodology that would have been allowable in different circumstances.

 

2 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Thanks, though I'm still unclear whether the accounts are public (one imagines they'd need to be if a buyer is being sought)?

Or the company can simply provide them along with the underlying details to the prospective buyers.

 

2 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

I'm no accountant but struggle ,(the amortization change, for example,) to understand if the accounting standard is followed why the overall and true position wouldn't materialise eventually?

The overall position for each indiviudal contract will, over the entire period of the contract (or on earlier sale), will be the same under the Derby methodology and under an FRS 102 compliant methodology.  It will simply be the difference between the purchase price and sale price.  Simplifying things slightly, Derby decided that they could charge nil amortisation on contracts until the final year when they would write the entire balance of the fee off.  On a £6 million fee over a three year contract they would gain the advantage of a reduction of £2 million in FFP losses in years 1 and 2 but suffer £4 million additional losses in the final year.

But if you buy such a player every year you effectively gain a permanent £6 million advantage, so it never reverts to the true position.

2 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Some suggest Derby sought to omit player write downs but I've never seen an explanation as to how they would eventually be able so to do?

I suspect that it would be on the treatment of goodwill on the acqusition of teh football club by the new parent.  Haven't worked it all through.

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Haven't looked into it in detail but wasn't it suggested the difference in costs related to the differential accounting periods Derby decided to deploy when establishing the various subsidiaries? Again it's robbing Peter to pay Paul for short term improvement. In the end it'll all catch up.

Interesting, would be interesting to read that further. There was definitely a 10 month for 2017 for the consolidated- Sevco 5112 vs a 12 month for the club, simply by dint of Mel Morris's takeover concluding in late August 2015.

However both club and consolidated are 12 month periods for 2018 and we see the inclusion of consolidated revenue in the club accounts but the costs only in the consolidated. That's why I used 2018 as my comparison as comparing 10 and 12 month periods and reconciling them feels harder...

2 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

I'm no accountant but struggle ,(the amortization change, for example,) to understand if the accounting standard is followed why the overall and true position wouldn't materialise eventually?  Some suggest Derby sought to omit player write downs but I've never seen an explanation as to how they would eventually be able so to do?

@Hxj beat me to it, treatment of goodwill on acquisition feels the most likely route- as goodwill is excluded from FFP calcs be it amortisation or impairment. Trying to theoretically hide some of it maybe.

On a side note, listening to the interview now- Mel Morris says he's not an accountant, never been an accountant- would Stephen Pearce be the villain of the piece here as he IS a qualified accountant?? Although he is explaining various aspects of it and defending the policy in itself.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

Just for info, this is my crude (but fairly accurate - based on prior years accounts) view of City’s amortisation costs each year going forward.  We can argue £0.5m here or there, but shows how Nige has wiped c£5m off of our amortisation.  In 19/20 it was £11.4m (expect 20/21 to be a similar amount).  That saving carries into 22/23 as well and if we bought nobody woukd be a £10m saving in 23/24.  Can add significant wage bill drop too that as well.

 

[Hxj]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Offer HMRC a settlement, which would be £10m of the £26m debt as the alternative is we go bust and you get zero.

So HMRC put you into Compulsory Liquidation and the club ceases to exist, nice outcome for DCFC!

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

MSD might yet be the new owners which means no admin.

MSD would have to have been informed of the intention to appont an administrator, a week I think, before the notice was issued.  If they were at all interested in the club they had to time to make that clear.

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Take it to court.

Read the Regulations!

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Queries as to whether Cocu and his staff would be classed as football creditors.

Read the Regulations!  Particularly 51.6.1 and the following note!

"51.6.1 due to any other Club (or club) (including but not limited to any Transfer Fee, Compensation Fee, Loan Fee, other contributions due pursuant to the terms of any Temporary Loan Transfer, or any subsequent payments which become due under the terms of any original transfer(s), ticket monies, or other payments pursuant to the terms of any other agreement);

Examples of what are considered to be ‘other agreements’ in Regulation 51.6.1 could include compensation agreements relating to managers / coaching staff.

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Also forgot to add, if Gellaw Newco 202 and Gellaw Newco 204 don't go into admin then surely the administrators and MSD don't, provided repayments kept up, get to access the ground.

That will depend upon the Loan Agreement and the definition of 'Default Event' in that agreement.  As the Football Club is the tenant I would be very surprised if their insolvency wasn't a default event, given the close connection between all the parties.  That would allow MSD to recover under the charge, which covers virtually everything including ownership of the football club and the name 'Derby County FC' or any other guarantees it has.

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Some Derby fans are suggesting that he should gift it back or sell it at a low rate but can't see the EFL accepting that willingly given a) The £81.1m sale price which was defended at great length and b) The fact that there is a 25 or was it 20 year lease on it, effective from 2018/19.

It isn't his to sell or give away.  The ground is owned by a Company with restrictions on the disposal due to the charge from MSD.  Whilst I understand the pendantic nature of this comment, in reality given the compex situation MSD have more powers than Morris. 

 

Edited September 19, 2021 by Hxj

[BTRFTG]

1 hour ago, Hxj said:

Nope - they failed to correctly account for the amortisation on the player contracts - they used a methodology that would have been allowable in different circumstances.

 

Or the company can simply provide them along with the underlying details to the prospective buyers.

 

The overall position for each indiviudal contract will, over the entire period of the contract (or on earlier sale), will be the same under the Derby methodology and under an FRS 102 compliant methodology.  It will simply be the difference between the purchase price and sale price.  Simplifying things slightly, Derby decided that they could charge nil amortisation on contracts until the final year when they would write the entire balance of the fee off.  On a £6 million fee over a three year contract they would gain the advantage of a reduction of £2 million in FFP losses in years 1 and 2 but suffer £4 million additional losses in the final year.

But if you buy such a player every year you effectively gain a permanent £6 million advantage, so it never reverts to the true position.

I suspect that it would be on the treatment of goodwill on the acqusition of teh football club by the new parent.  Haven't worked it all through.

Interesting info but not sure if matters  aren't conflated between legal obligation to file at Companies House and the farce that is FFP.

I know there's been suggestion of complicity with Derby's auditors but surely if the accounts weren't fit to file there would have been an impairment noted, else the auditors themselves would be shown to have been negligent with one or both liable to censure? I thought I'd read there was nothing wrong with the accounts filed, per se, rather their construction and methodology would set alarm bells ringing with the blindest of Pews.

I also get the principle about short-termism re FFP but can't get my head around what one should have in 'cash & assets' and where one explains any difference between what one can demonstrate is held at any given point in time plus what's been written off? To my knowledge the entities weren't some contrived SPV swop con, so ultimately, once the cards stopped moving, the write offs become visible. Even if the intangibles are devalued 'losses' (sic) get 'written down'.

Of course one might argue that whilst Derby are duplicitous in the construction of their accounts, are City really that dissimilar? Do we for one minute believe SL's loans will be repaid in full, or he receive the face value of his stock returned once he cedes control? My money's on City's financial position improving significantly when SL (most likely his estate,) write off much of that owed him as irrecoverable debt.

[cider11]

I read this from the Sun this morning about Mel losing 200m during his time as owner. 
 

Also says no new owners would want to fund 3m losses each month. If perhaps he’d run a tighter ship and adhered to FFP rules he wouldn’t have been spunking so much money out each month. Plus spending like he was fuels other clubs to also try and keep up. 
 

artical - https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/16182184/morris-spent-200m-derby-administration-owner/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=sunfootballfacebook200921&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1632080292

[chinapig]

3 minutes ago, cider11 said:

If perhaps he’d run a tighter ship and adhered to FFP rules he wouldn’t have been spunking so much money out each month. Plus spending like he was fuels other clubs to also try and keep up.

Still doesn't seem to cross his mind. Still blaming the EFL for expecting him to play by the rules I see. How sad.

[Davefevs]

The interview:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p09wdhd3

[RedRaw]

The guy makes all the same buzz words and sounds just like Ashton….smarmy bstard

[Davefevs]

11:40 - COVID and PPs blamed

15:40 - amortisation / FRS102

21:05 - resubmit accounts - been prepared - admission of breach

22:45 - buying players (Darren Bent type etc) / managers (Clement, Rowett, Cocu)

Cocu hamstrung by above. His payoff was £8m (MM less than that but a big sum).  Deflects to Nottingham Forest.

29:00 - COVID killing P&S

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Davefevs

[mjd]

Read somewhere one person on the consortium who were trying to take over, are asking the supporters to get on social media and complain about this happening to them .

[SE23Red]

14 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Interesting info but not sure if matters  aren't conflated between legal obligation to file at Companies House and the farce that is FFP.

This is key.

Loads of excellent analysis has been done on the paper money tricks MM has employed, but usually from the angle that Derby gained a sporting/competitive advantage from accounting differently to other clubs.

Administration is a different ballgame.

MM has spent years playing the rich man, bending rules to allow him to put as much of his money into the club as he could, as quickly as he could to chase the dream.

What I find amazing is, even having taken the club into Admin, he still doesn't appear to comprehend that FFP is there to protect clubs against people exactly like him. Of course a club operating outside of FFP rules is going to be hit worst by Covid. That doesn't make it Covid's fault!

[BTRFTG]

24 minutes ago, SE23Red said:

he still doesn't appear to comprehend that FFP is there to protect clubs against people exactly like him.

As has amply been demonstrated by those who write about such matters FFP has NOTHING to do with protecting football clubs and their finances and is a wholly driven initiative to ring-fence elite European clubs from being threatened by nascent upstarts with rich backers. Always was, always will be.

Look at clubs finances since FFP was introduced and there are more on the brink now than ever (and that's nothing to do with the pandemic.)

If you don't believe me look no further than our own club, net liabilities approaching £130m, about to drop accounts reporting record losses, a wage bill recently significantly higher than turnover, with no realistic means of paying the owner back his 'loans' (sic).

[Monkeh]

54 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

As has amply been demonstrated by those who write about such matters FFP has NOTHING to do with protecting football clubs and their finances and is a wholly driven initiative to ring-fence elite European clubs from being threatened by nascent upstarts with rich backers. Always was, always will be.

Look at clubs finances since FFP was introduced and there are more on the brink now than ever (and that's nothing to do with the pandemic.)

If you don't believe me look no further than our own club, net liabilities approaching £130m, about to drop accounts reporting record losses, a wage bill recently significantly higher than turnover, with no realistic means of paying the owner back his 'loans' (sic).

Explain man City then 

[SE23Red]

35 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

As has amply been demonstrated by those who write about such matters FFP has NOTHING to do with protecting football clubs and their finances and is a wholly driven initiative to ring-fence elite European clubs from being threatened by nascent upstarts with rich backers. Always was, always will be.

Look at clubs finances since FFP was introduced and there are more on the brink now than ever (and that's nothing to do with the pandemic.)

If you don't believe me look no further than our own club, net liabilities approaching £130m, about to drop accounts reporting record losses, a wage bill recently significantly higher than turnover, with no realistic means of paying the owner back his 'loans' (sic).

Fair point, and I'd definitely be open to a scheme where owners were obliged to underwrite debt and projected losses more robustly. E.g. depositing funds with EFL or trusted third party. I wasn't arguing in favour of the current rules, just that it takes some balls to run your club in breach of them every year and then blame everyone else when it turns out this is unsustainable.

[BTRFTG]

8 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Explain man City then 

Easy. Sheikh Mansour acquired Man City mid 2008. 

The 'historic' major European clubs already witnessing what Abramovich was achieving at Chelsea responded by proposing to UEFA outlines for FFP in 2009. UEFA implemented them in 2011. Pure protectionism and NOTHING about preventing clubs living beyond their means.

So to answer your question, in City's case the horse had already bolted.

 

[BTRFTG]

19 minutes ago, SE23Red said:

Fair point, and I'd definitely be open to a scheme where owners were obliged to underwrite debt and projected losses more robustly. E.g. depositing funds with EFL or trusted third party. I wasn't arguing in favour of the current rules, just that it takes some balls to run your club in breach of them every year and then blame everyone else when it turns out this is unsustainable.

FFP is meaningless. It's a game to be played and as with most games the richer one is the easier it is to win. In truth the difference between Morris & SL is SL has sufficient financial clout to provide an additional range of 'options', all legal, all within the rules, yet equally not within the spirit of what FFP claims to achieve.

What's disgraceful is the way in which UEFA now attempt to circumvent the rules they've introduced on behalf of the historic clubs, the ones who do not have seriously mega wealthy owners. Real & Barca cases in point.

[Davefevs]

55 minutes ago, SE23Red said:

Fair point, and I'd definitely be open to a scheme where owners were obliged to underwrite debt and projected losses more robustly. E.g. depositing funds with EFL or trusted third party. I wasn't arguing in favour of the current rules, just that it takes some balls to run your club in breach of them every year and then blame everyone else when it turns out this is unsustainable.

Me too.

The current rules don’t stop clubs becoming a mess / going bust, nor do they promote fair(ish) competition either.

[Mr Popodopolous]

19 hours ago, Hxj said:

So HMRC put you into Compulsory Liquidation and the club ceases to exist, nice outcome for DCFC!

MSD would have to have been informed of the intention to appont an administrator, a week I think, before the notice was issued.  If they were at all interested in the club they had to time to make that clear.

Read the Regulations!

Read the Regulations!  Particularly 51.6.1 and the following note!

"51.6.1 due to any other Club (or club) (including but not limited to any Transfer Fee, Compensation Fee, Loan Fee, other contributions due pursuant to the terms of any Temporary Loan Transfer, or any subsequent payments which become due under the terms of any original transfer(s), ticket monies, or other payments pursuant to the terms of any other agreement);

Examples of what are considered to be ‘other agreements’ in Regulation 51.6.1 could include compensation agreements relating to managers / coaching staff.

That will depend upon the Loan Agreement and the definition of 'Default Event' in that agreement.  As the Football Club is the tenant I would be very surprised if their insolvency wasn't a default event, given the close connection between all the parties.  That would allow MSD to recover under the charge, which covers virtually everything including ownership of the football club and the name 'Derby County FC' or any other guarantees it has.

It isn't his to sell or give away.  The ground is owned by a Company with restrictions on the disposal due to the charge from MSD.  Whilst I understand the pendantic nature of this comment, in reality given the compex situation MSD have more powers than Morris. 

 

Thank you, this clears up a lot...perhaps I should stop taking as gospel some of what I read on their forum.

[Mr Popodopolous]

The thing is, the P&S regs also have provision for the cash losses- and it is cash flow that can cause serious problems for businesses, in this case clubs.

Now the robustness and enforceability of it, this maybe different!!

Nixon was reporting through August and maybe beyond that the EFL were asking for assurances from Derby/Mel Morris. Perhaps these were the assurances in q?

Plus in more detail.

The regulations aren't necessarily the problem, P&S combined with the above should keep clubs safe- unless an owner literally runs out of cash, which seems not to have been the case here.

The stadium loophole has now been shut, had it been shut throughout then some of these cases wouldn't have arisen and dragged, with the resulting collateral damage.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[REDOXO]

On 17/09/2021 at 16:43, Hxj said:

Disappointed with the comments on here.

Yes Morris and Pearce took the proverbial but how sad for a once great club.  Lots of good people up here will be mourning tonight and worried about their jobs

Yes the schadenfreude can be galling, but to be fair some of the hi jinx of the club and the myopia of some supporters is galling too. All that, we’ve done nothing wrong stuff on here, when it now appears that the EFL have let the board of Derby disappear up their own rectums at the expense of a freshly relegated Wycombe Wanderers. I expect that will run and run!
 

But I do take your point.  There will be a lot of suppliers with a headache this morning expecting pennies on the pound and maybe not even that if a buyer can not be found. I would be furious if I were a Derby fan and most are furious for Derby fans, particularly as now they (Derby supporters) ALL have to admit its not a conspiracy against them, by other clubs, its always been other clubs and there supporters pointing out Derby County’s constant shiftiest de’ jour and gaminess with the rules and by extension with their competitors and fellow clubs, who try to stay within the common bounds of decency and integrity expected in sport!

[Mr Popodopolous]

I have a feeling that they will be trying to slime their way out of the -12 for Admin. "Force Majeure" don't you know.

Mind you Wigan tried that albeit earlier into Covid. For the integrity of the League, ie the wider interests of the game, the EFL need to keep full throttle at Derby from all angles.

Some are also claiming that the -4 ie the overspend to that number in the 3 year sto 2017/18 should be the end of it ie it'd be unfair to punish for 2019 and perhaps beyond...unsure it's how it works. Every other club got assessed on every other period.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[REDOXO]

I have just taken this from The DCFC fans forum…Nicely sums up a lot for me….particularly as it forecast this shiftiest….Good luck to the fans of Derby, one or two may want to have a little more humility in the future mind you!

DCFC Supporter as below

I have posted this on my personal facebook but want to let everyone else know as well hence why I have started a new thread. As fans we need to be collectively acting now on the back of the group Club 84 raising various issues over the past week or so. Do no bury your heads in the sand any longer. I am concerned.

Spent this last week focusing on something that means a hell of alot to me, Derby County.

This past year has been tough on me, sure you all know that and my primarily focus has been on my business and family. A new addition in Phoebe, a house move that now risks having houses built at the back of us replacing the green belt land that reside on the land and then working most nights delivering Uber to bring some income in, not to mention home schooling. So I haven't had the time to think about Derby County but it has now come to a tipping point where I am very concerned about our club.

Regardless of the result on Saturday, this club in my opinion is in serious danger and when I say that I mean it in the strongest of terms. Should this takeover not happen then I worry that we will have no club to return to.

Over the past few weeks many supporters group and the local press have requested that either Mel Morris or Stephen Pearce just come out and gives us fans some 'reassurance' that our club will be secure in the event of the takeover collapsing. This has been refused many times.

I have been involved with the club for around 15 years now and have attended many meetings including the supporters committee that meet every couple of months and improving the atmosphere etc etc... Always had a very good relationship and a mutual respect with both Mel & Stephen. There was plans for a protest after the game on Saturday (now been called off due to safety concerns with the Arena Vaccines) and originally this could have simply been avoided by either of them coming out to give us fans reassurance. I asked the question a couple of days ago and they have refused to come out and say 'anything'.

It does not need a genius to work out that this is an absolute disgrace of respect for us fans. The same people who asked fans to donate their Season Ticket money to the club in the middle of a pandemic to help it be run as opposed to having a refund. The absolute pure cheek of it is astounding.

When things go silent and when people in authority refuse to speak to the biggest stakeholders of this football club, which if you didn't know, is us fans, then questions and concerns need to be raised and answered and unfortunately certain people are hiding - draw your own conclusions on that.

The focus without doubt needs to be on the game on Saturday but irrespective of the outcome, Derby County are in serious danger and as fans we need to act. Do not say to me that it will all be okay if we stay up, it won't be. Do not be naïve to think that. We are in a huge mess. There is a reason why accounts get published and that is so fans can understand the situation of our club. This is way overdue, why?.

Mel Morris has invested alot of money in this football club but whilst doing so has made us an absolute embarrassment in the football world and has failed. Selling the stadium to himself was done because he overspent and screwed up. So many thought it was clever, it really wasn't - it was hiding his mistakes as custodian to this football club which resulted in the football club no longer owning the biggest asset which in turn will make any takeover complicated. Let's not even go there with the Arab failed takeover, due diligence of any interested party failed big time there and weeks were wasted with it.

Under his command we have seen absolute appalling recruitment. This has never been addressed despite being raised time and time again. In fact, we may as well appoint him as manager as I always thought it should be the football club manager that targets & buys players. I dont need to name names with this one but there is a player at this club who has never played second time around and is getting paid very well, wonder why...

Clearly our season has been nothing short of a shambles. You cannot blame the kids and you cannot blame the players to a degree, it isn't there fault they are not good enough. The captain of the ship is responsible for this. Important we back the lads tomorrow and hope and pray they get us over the line to keep our Championship status.

This post is not a rant. Its reality that our football club and the fab Derby people that work within it are in serious danger of being no more. Please do not say to me that this derails tomorrow, I am sorry but the situation is far worse than the potential relegation we face tomorrow. Feel free to bury your heads in the sands but things need to change at Derby County and quick before it really is to late.

I would say to Mel & Stephen, feel free to respond and give us reassurances, but they have already refused to do so. That my friends is all you need to know about who we currently have running our beloved Derby County.

Stephen Pearce needs to resign. Any CEO of any business does not hide like what you have.

Mel Morris needs to depart this football club and take all the debt with him. The stadium should be given back to the football club and included in any sale. He should swallow his pride and sell this great football club to the 'best' candidate and not just who he prefers. We both know there are offers on the table and you know who they are from.

After all, you are Derby through and through - said no one ever but you.

Nick

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Good post @REDOXO

I do criticise that forum but some good content on there- I googled it and it was back in May 2021, so yeah...a strong take on it and a lot of good points. Their wage bill is ever vanishing, apparently it's only £1m per month now!

Talking of humility, the following threads- and I'm not one to gloat, but the following threads make for interesting reading in this context...

Quote

Signing of Rooney and what a clever wheeze it was

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/33154-how-much-is-rooney-really-on/

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/33191-damned/

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/34167-derby-preston-32red-the-star-clause/

 

Quote

Talk of trouble on the horizon about FFP- and the fans view

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/32065-trouble-ahead/

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/32054-soft-transfer-embargo/

 

Quote

This aged well...

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/37683-please-don’t-blame-morris-and-pearce/

...As did this!

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/35363-amortisation-policy/

The original stadium sale thread might make for good reading but could take some finding.

Not much humility on display in these periods! They were so smart...their owner was so smart- it's hard to muster up significant sympathy for some of the fans on there I'd say.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[sh1t_ref_again]

A good article for anyone who wants a simplified overview

https://www.football365.com/news/derby-county-administration-failure-opinion

[REDOXO]

23 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Good post @REDOXO

I do criticise that forum but some good content on there- I googled it and it was back in May 2021, so yeah...a strong take on it and a lot of good points. Their wage bill is ever vanishing, apparently it's only £1m per month now!

Talking of humility, the following threads- and I'm not one to gloat, but the following threads make for interesting reading in this context...

 

 

The original stadium sale thread might make for good reading but could take some finding.

Not much humility on display in these periods! They were so smart...their owner was so smart- it's hard to muster up significant sympathy for some of the fans on there I'd say.

BuckTaylor spelled it all out in April 2019 and didn’t he catch shit for it. God I hope some people have given the decker an apology. Probably not!

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

BuckTaylor spelled it all out in April 2019 and didn’t he catch shit for it. God I hope some people have given the decker an apology. Probably not!

Yes he did, that was a good thread, with some strong points...not entirely in the way he laid out but he suggested big trouble could be on the way.

Found the thread which contains stuff about the stadium sale once the financial results had emerged...

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/31968-1718-financial-results/

A couple more interesting ones too...these I found when looking for the one in Spring 2019.

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/31925-business-steps-to-administraton/

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/31992-mel-morris/

Not read many of the threads in depth or anything, but I bet not many are expressing concern etc.

[REDOXO]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yes he did, that was a good thread, with some strong points...not entirely in the way he laid out but he suggested big trouble could be on the way.

Found the thread which contains stuff about the stadium sale once the financial results had emerged...

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/31968-1718-financial-results/

A couple more interesting ones too...these I found when looking for the one in Spring 2019.

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/31925-business-steps-to-administraton/

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/31992-mel-morris/

Not read many of the threads in depth or anything, but I bet not many are expressing concern etc.

No not really. The posts about the EFL being somehow at fault or are picking on Derby over the last few days are also nauseating. Good luck to Derby and there fans rebuilding. Also good luck to Wycombe with all the impending law suits that are bound to follow. The administrators have one hell of a job with this one. And that’s not even taking criminal law into account. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

30 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

No not really. The posts about the EFL being somehow at fault or are picking on Derby over the last few days are also nauseating. Good luck to Derby and there fans rebuilding. Also good luck to Wycombe with all the impending law suits that are bound to follow. The administrators have one hell of a job with this one. And that’s not even taking criminal law into account. 

When I get time, I might read those threads- all those I posted, will take some time but I expect to see a lot of crowing...

Yep, the Derby as victims narrative even to today, that is nauseating- for those fans, let alone the gloaters I struggle to muster up much sympathy. Sensible fans however that's a different matter of course.

Yep, good luck in rebuilding, good luck to Wycombe- certain people ie Matt Hughes, Kieran Maguire to name two- these can also feel vindication in their views about their compliance.

It's funny, there should be a thread front and centre on DCFCFans stating that Mel Morris admitted they failed FFP. Maybe not pinned but that's a watershed moment!

Criminal law eh? Wonder if any q's will be asked of the auditors...

Edited September 20, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

That word humility again @REDOXO

...

I don't particularly think that Couhig has a case. How you quantify the losses, who you pursue etc I think elements of wishful thinking exist. Let alone within the League system where clubs and the League agree to arbitrate.

What is striking however, is the tone of Derby fans below the line. Crowing, arrogant. The one who said the bit about allowed to pick own amortisation policy under FFP and only failed when restated is baffling.

Even a) Going into administration and b) Owner admitting that when restated, accounts to 2018 fail FFP, wow still like this.

I don't remember such arrogance and shrillness combined with claims of unfair treatment for so long from Birmingham or Sheffield Wednesday fans when FFP failed.

Derby's delaying tactics helped to prevent any penalty from being applied to 2020/21.

Tbh it's possible that I'm blaming the minority unfairly but in this instance. Think of the fans? Half inclined in DCFC case to say bollocks to the fans.

EFL process must go through all layers or significant agreed penalties ie administration plus the - 9, - 3 suspended with business plan. Plus the - 3 remains in play for non-payment of wages and CVA - 15 NEXT season if no agreement. Everything has to apply in full, fans or not, new owners or not.

IF there was some default transfer from Mel to Dell, surely EFL regs couldn't be bypassed just like that?

Edited September 20, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Dolman_Stand]

Not sure if it's been posted already but Wycombe looking at legal action now claiming they are down £15m to 20m from not being a Championship club this season.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Not that it wouldn't be unawarranted but it feels a pointless exercise possibly. To repeat and add to what I said when he spoke of it months ago.

A) His figures feel sketchy. I've always thought £5-7m at the upper end. Unsure where £20m comes from??

B) League and Clubs have to submit to pursuit of action under arbitration. Middlesbrough's cases were through this method. How much can an arbitration panel award? 

C) Who would the club pursue? EFL, Derby? Other parties involved but not directly?

[REDOXO]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Not that it wouldn't be unawarranted but it feels a pointless exercise possibly. To repeat and add to what I said when he spoke of it months ago.

A) His figures feel sketchy. I've always thought £5-7m at the upper end. Unsure where £20m comes from??

B) League and Clubs have to submit to pursuit of action under arbitration. Middlesbrough's cases were through this method. How much can an arbitration panel award? 

C) Who would the club pursue? EFL, Derby? Other parties involved but not directly?

The whole thing with reporting is sketchy. What will be found now is anyone’s guess. I really don’t know the rules regarding arbitration so I will defer to you, however this is now a shiftiest that breaks or could break completely new ground….Which anyone with an attention span longer than a goldfish could have predicted. 
 

Asfor who would get pursued  who knows. But that will all be about what becomes uncovered and enters the public domain. This is about to get uglier than ugly because the EFL for whatever reason didn’t relegate a club that six games later it was found were an utter financial mess. 
 

The EFL and the appeals commission have a lot to answer for as do the board of Derby and the main player, who will I suspect bring loads of people down with him. 
 

The EFL has been severely compromised and now looks like a weak Lilly liveried institution..That’s not good for anyone!

[Monkeh]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Not that it wouldn't be unawarranted but it feels a pointless exercise possibly. To repeat and add to what I said when he spoke of it months ago.

A) His figures feel sketchy. I've always thought £5-7m at the upper end. Unsure where £20m comes from??

B) League and Clubs have to submit to pursuit of action under arbitration. Middlesbrough's cases were through this method. How much can an arbitration panel award? 

C) Who would the club pursue? EFL, Derby? Other parties involved but not directly?

There would of been extra money due to Norwich and Watford winning promotion as their parachute payments get divided up between the rest of the championship clubs

[Mr Popodopolous]

16 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

There would of been extra money due to Norwich and Watford winning promotion as their parachute payments get divided up between the rest of the championship clubs

Was always under the impression that Parachute Payments no longer due to clubs promoted back were redistributed back among PL clubs.

On a side note, to any readers from DCFCFans I don't want the club to go bust but a good period of suffering on the pitch would be quite warranted.

Full implementation of EFL regulations is a must.

[Davefevs]

29 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

There would of been extra money due to Norwich and Watford winning promotion as their parachute payments get divided up between the rest of the championship clubs

If a promoted Championship club comes straight back down they get 2 years PPs.  The 3rd years gets divvied back amongst the PL clubs, not the championship…..it’s crap, but that’s what happens.

[reddoh]

21 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

If a promoted Championship club comes straight back down they get 2 years PPs.  The 3rd years gets divvied back amongst the PL clubs, not the championship…..it’s crap, but that’s what happens.

why it seems just pie in the sky

[Mr Popodopolous]

Interesting bit, found the quotes from Mel Morris on FFP.

 

That is the confirmation of the breach to 2018- the exact wording.

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/derby-county-mel-morris-interview-5939387

Scratch that, found another link.

How do they go about continuing to fight on the FFP front when in admin- @Hxj would the administrators fund this? Given they need paying themselves on top of the running costs of the club...legal fees? Who pays for these if Derby don't want to accept the -9 or -9 + 3 and Business Plan.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[REDOXO]

@Hxj The corporate veil is/has been pierced. Where this goes now no one knows. Good Luck!

[frenchred]

Just listened to the whole Morris interview on radio derby, wow all to do with covid, and derby effected more than others! Man is a deluded fool!!

[Hxj]

7 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

How do they go about continuing to fight on the FFP front when in admin- @Hxj would the administrators fund this? Given they need paying themselves on top of the running costs of the club...legal fees? Who pays for these if Derby don't want to accept the -9 or -9 + 3 and Business Plan.

The Administrators (if they are appointed) have to run the company for the benefit of the creditors as a whole, the directors also lose all powers over the company.  So I can see that if there is the reasonable prospect of a sale it would fall within the Administrators' role to continue the fight.  That said it will all come down to cash.  Are there sufficient funds available to meet the ongoing costs?  Is any external funding available?

On a related issue it is possible to appeal the 12 point penalty for the insolvency event.  However the EFL rules are surprisingly tight on this issue:

• 12.12 Any Sporting Sanctions Appeal must be in writing and be received by The League at its registered office no later than seven days after The League serves the Notice. The Sporting Sanctions Appeal must contain a statement setting out the grounds of appeal and provide copies of any documentation upon which the Club intends to rely in support of the Sporting Sanctions Appeal.
• 12.13 The Club must also lodge with The League, at the same time as the Sporting Sanctions Appeal, a deposit of £5,000 in respect of the costs of the Sporting Sanctions Appeal.
• 12.14 Upon receipt of the Sporting Sanctions Appeal The League shall refer the matter to the League Arbitration Panel in accordance with the provisions of Section 9 of these Regulations, supplemented by the provisions of this Regulation 12, and in the event of any conflict between Section 9 and this Regulation, this Regulation shall prevail.
• 12.15 The League shall, immediately upon receipt of the Sporting Sanctions Appeal, instruct a firm of independent accountants to carry out a review of the activities of the Club and/or any Group Undertaking for the purposes of preparing an independent report into the circumstances surrounding and leading up to the relevant Insolvency Event(s). The Club shall meet the costs of preparation of that report in any event. The report shall be provided to the Club, the League Arbitration Panel and The League. The League Arbitration Panel shall take into account the contents of that report when determining whether the insolvency proceedings arose solely as a result of a Force Majeure event.
• 12.16 The League Arbitration Panel shall hear any Sporting Sanctions Appeal within 21 days of the lodgement of the Sporting Sanctions Appeal.
• 12.17 The Club shall bear the burden of proof in relation to the matters set out in the Sporting Sanctions Appeal on the balance of probabilities.
• 12.18 The League Arbitration Panel shall have the power to: 12.18.1 confirm the deduction of 12 points; or 29 12.18.2 set aside the deduction of 12 points and substitute a deduction of such lower number of points as it shall deem appropriate; or 12.18.3 order that there shall be no sanction at all.
• 12.19 Any costs incurred by any party in proceedings brought before the League Arbitration Panel shall be met by the Club in any event and shall be considered as a sum due to The League for the purposes of Article 48

So if the Administrators wish to appeal (no one else can) they are then incurring a significant cost burden, plus they need to act rapidly.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Hxj

[Davefevs]

8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Interesting bit, found the quotes from Mel Morris on FFP.

 

That is the confirmation of the breach to 2018- the exact wording.

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/derby-county-mel-morris-interview-5939387

Scratch that, found another link.

How do they go about continuing to fight on the FFP front when in admin- @Hxj would the administrators fund this? Given they need paying themselves on top of the running costs of the club...legal fees? Who pays for these if Derby don't want to accept the -9 or -9 + 3 and Business Plan.

I love how he is so “vague” about it….almost like there’s more to it, but he’s trying his usual hard-done-by look.

[AnotherDerbyFan]

5 hours ago, frenchred said:

Just listened to the whole Morris interview on radio derby, wow all to do with covid, and derby effected more than others! Man is a deluded fool!!

Percentage of income lost last season would have been about 50% (£15m). Name another club which lost a higher percentage.

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Percentage of income lost last season would have been about 50% (£15m). Name another club which lost a higher percentage.

Will let you know when our accounts come out.

[chinapig]

6 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Percentage of income lost last season would have been about 50% (£15m). Name another club which lost a higher percentage.

Taking your figure at face value, it may have a bearing on the club going into Administration but I don't see how it is relevant to pre-Covid breaches of P&S.

[Monkeh]

50 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Percentage of income lost last season would have been about 50% (£15m). Name another club which lost a higher percentage.

Us most likely as well as about 13 other championship clubs who stuck to the rules

 

You're getting what you deserve for cheating 

 

[Hxj]

59 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Will let you know when your accounts come out (if ever).

Just corrected that one for you!

Edited September 21, 2021 by Hxj

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Percentage of income lost last season would have been about 50% (£15m). Name another club which lost a higher percentage.

Have you any thoughts though on the owner admitting a P&S breach of 4 points to 2018 under the restated method? 

There's little denial now, HE admitted it in an interview.

Overarching settlement seems the best bet. Otherwise it's into administration, - 12 and the EFL continue with the embargo, the charges and the process which has no timescale on it.

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 hours ago, Hxj said:

The Administrators (if they are appointed) have to run the company for the benefit of the creditors as a whole, the directors also lose all powers over the company.  So I can see that if there is the reasonable prospect of a sale it would fall within the Administrators' role to continue the fight.  That said it will all come down to cash.  Are there sufficient funds available to meet the ongoing costs?  Is any external funding available?

On a related issue it is possible to appeal the 12 point penalty for the insolvency event.  However the EFL rules are surprisingly tight on this issue:

• 12.12 Any Sporting Sanctions Appeal must be in writing and be received by The League at its registered office no later than seven days after The League serves the Notice. The Sporting Sanctions Appeal must contain a statement setting out the grounds of appeal and provide copies of any documentation upon which the Club intends to rely in support of the Sporting Sanctions Appeal.
• 12.13 The Club must also lodge with The League, at the same time as the Sporting Sanctions Appeal, a deposit of £5,000 in respect of the costs of the Sporting Sanctions Appeal.
• 12.14 Upon receipt of the Sporting Sanctions Appeal The League shall refer the matter to the League Arbitration Panel in accordance with the provisions of Section 9 of these Regulations, supplemented by the provisions of this Regulation 12, and in the event of any conflict between Section 9 and this Regulation, this Regulation shall prevail.
• 12.15 The League shall, immediately upon receipt of the Sporting Sanctions Appeal, instruct a firm of independent accountants to carry out a review of the activities of the Club and/or any Group Undertaking for the purposes of preparing an independent report into the circumstances surrounding and leading up to the relevant Insolvency Event(s). The Club shall meet the costs of preparation of that report in any event. The report shall be provided to the Club, the League Arbitration Panel and The League. The League Arbitration Panel shall take into account the contents of that report when determining whether the insolvency proceedings arose solely as a result of a Force Majeure event.
• 12.16 The League Arbitration Panel shall hear any Sporting Sanctions Appeal within 21 days of the lodgement of the Sporting Sanctions Appeal.
• 12.17 The Club shall bear the burden of proof in relation to the matters set out in the Sporting Sanctions Appeal on the balance of probabilities.
• 12.18 The League Arbitration Panel shall have the power to: 12.18.1 confirm the deduction of 12 points; or 29 12.18.2 set aside the deduction of 12 points and substitute a deduction of such lower number of points as it shall deem appropriate; or 12.18.3 order that there shall be no sanction at all.
• 12.19 Any costs incurred by any party in proceedings brought before the League Arbitration Panel shall be met by the Club in any event and shall be considered as a sum due to The League for the purposes of Article 48

So if the Administrators wish to appeal (no one else can) they are then incurring a significant cost burden, plus they need to act rapidly.

7 days then? Seems unlikely but as you say maybe wider interest of creditors.

Thinking more of the FFP appeals and cases, would be interesting to know how a club in administration could afford to keep fighting on that front.

Could be wrong but don't ever remember a case with  a club going into administration with P&S issues running concurrently.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous