Derby County

[LondonBristolian]

1 minute ago, ExiledAjax said:

It's a shame that @havanatopia is no longer here to see his thread title made mockery. 

I'm certainly not mocking the thread title. The EFL sat in their hands for years whilst everyone knew Derby were spending recklessly. I'm glad this action has finally been taken but the thread title certainly made sense at the time and, as @supercidered says above, it's a real shame this came too late for Wycombe. And too late for the man actually responsible for the mess Derby are in to still be at the helm...

[WarksRobin]

1 hour ago, Hxj said:

That's an interesting word choice - not 'with the interested parties.'

Does this mean that someone hasn't actually confirmed interest yet?

Standard wording. Unless and until someone signs a release agreement to get access to the company data, there are no interested parties.

[ExiledAjax]

On 24/05/2021 at 23:09, havanatopia said:

Are the Football League hoping this will quietly disappear?

Will Wycombe have to call the legal team in?

Two weeks after the season has ended and the Pride Park club, via its online newspaper mouthpiece, is already arrogantly discussing the seasons new fixtures in the Championship.

Do they know more than the rest of us? have they paid someone off handsomely to ensure the club remain much more attractive to a buyer?

@LondonBristolian. Probably worth quoting the OP here. Havanatopia, as the rest of us, would presumably love to see that the EFL have not bungled this one (at least not entirely, my thoughts go to Wycombe as well). Derby have, realistically, been handed the relegation that they deserve. The EFL have made a mockery of the thread title...and it's fantastic that they've done so.

[chinapig]

25 minutes ago, supercidered said:

Glad they have been rogered senseless but just about the right punishment. However, the time taken means that Wycombe got f@cked over in the process of everything taking so long. With it being a legal process then I guess the time taken was inevitable and nothing can be done for Wycombe. Shame.

I would describe it as quasi-legal as the courts are explicitly excluded. Consequently it should not take 2 years to conclude. The EFL needs to find ways to speed the process up.

Justice delayed is justice denied and all that.

[Davefevs]

Re Wycombe, the fact that the EFL started this season with interchangeable fixtures highlights that they were hoping for a swift decision.  Is either party at fault for it taking til November to conclude?  Guess it was definitely in Detby’s interest to delay the decision to ensure they remained in Champ this season beyond the initial point where fixtures had to be played..

Do Wycombe still have a case?  I don’t know the legal standpoint, but they’ve lost out big-time, in terms of revenue and players.

[GrahamC]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Re Wycombe, the fact that the EFL started this season with interchangeable fixtures highlights that they were hoping for a swift decision.  Is either party at fault for it taking til November to conclude?  Guess it was definitely in Detby’s interest to delay the decision to ensure they remained in Champ this season beyond the initial point where fixtures had to be played..

Do Wycombe still have a case?  I don’t know the legal standpoint, but they’ve lost out big-time, in terms of revenue and players.

Rumour doing the rounds that both them & Boro are considering legal action, though not sure of the latter’s angle here, but Steve Gibson has been consistent (& right) in calling out FFP cheats like Bournemouth, QPR, Wednesday, Reading & Derby.

[Banjo Red]

1 hour ago, Loco Rojo said:

I wonder if they have any legal case to pursue? They must have lost earnings by dropping to L1 even if they do come straight back up.

You would think so the system is very suspect.

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

@BigTone- any chance of a condensed version please?

[ExiledAjax]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Re Wycombe, the fact that the EFL started this season with interchangeable fixtures highlights that they were hoping for a swift decision.  Is either party at fault for it taking til November to conclude?  Guess it was definitely in Detby’s interest to delay the decision to ensure they remained in Champ this season beyond the initial point where fixtures had to be played..

Do Wycombe still have a case?  I don’t know the legal standpoint, but they’ve lost out big-time, in terms of revenue and players.

Certainly there will be a QC out there who will take Wycombe's case. 

Who exactly they should sue I couldn't be sure. Is it Derby for initially cheating, or is it the EFL for delaying things. 

With Derby in the financial situation they are in I would suggest that the sensible option is to go at the EFL. IIRC Wyconbe want about £6m. I can't see the EFL paying that but maybe they would give Wycombe something.

Thinking a little outside the box but could there be scope for giving Wycombe a promotion, or if they get promoted this season then granting them immunity from relegation next season? I've not read the regs in detail, but presumably if enough clubs agreed to it then that could happen. 

[BigTone]

3 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

@BigTone- any chance of a condensed version please?

Condensed Version 

Derby are doomed

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

Just now, BigTone said:

Condensed Version 

Derby are doomed

Cheers- thought so but just needed your confirmation.

[Davefevs]

Any idea whether they might be in further breach for the latest FFP cycle / period too.  Don’t forget w/o Mel they are down to only £15m losses in the cycle?  £39m is only if backed by owner!

@Hxjinteresting that club still need to produce some accounts even if not at CH (26.2.ii)

[Bristol Oil Services]

3 hours ago, JamesBCFC said:

Could Derby end this season with not just the lowest ever Premier League points tally, but Championship one too?

 

3 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

Blackpool hold the record with 26, I think they will get more than 27 points from their remaining games.

Rotherham, 23 points in 2016/17. Statistically the poorest second tier team in England since 1945. 

[ExiledAjax]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Any idea whether they might be in further breach for the latest FFP cycle / period too.  Don’t forget w/o Mel they are down to only £15m losses in the cycle?  £39m is only if backed by owner!

@Hxjinteresting that club still need to produce some accounts even if not at CH (26.2.ii)

Is this another reason why a sale, and therefore a settlement with the EFL, are so "critical" to the Club's future? They need a new owner asap so that they can get back to that £39m threshold. Do I have that correct? Is that how that would work?

[Davefevs]

Just now, ExiledAjax said:

Is this another reason why a sale, and therefore a settlement with the EFL, are so "critical" to the Club's future? They need a new owner asap so that they can get back to that £39m threshold. Do I have that correct? Is that how that would work?

I can only assume so.

http://www.financialfairplay.co.uk/financial-fair-play-explained.php

Has Mel put any equity in for some of those years?  Maybe it might be somewhere between £15-39m???  

[Mr Popodopolous]

Looked over it, seems a pretty fair settlement to me.

The inclusion of the Revaluation Reserve is now not permissible, certainly for P&S purposes. 

What really pleases me is that the EFL did not crumble in the face of bluster and lawyers...or similar.

Look at the following statements...admittedly the first was specifically about Pride Park and Pride Park only, which as we know was upheld/not appealed.

https://www.dcfc.co.uk/news/2019/09/club-statement-5

That suggested that it was long after the event and could no longer affect Derby County.

https://www.dcfc.co.uk/news/2020/01/club-statement-17th-january-2020

Again denied that much could be done. Threw around terms like unlawful etc.

Then the whole delaying and procrastinating although that cut both ways- an article in mid May suggested procedural defences to stall a deduction or a final decision and it wouldn't surprise me if it had some truth...dunno where specifically in the article but I do remember reading it in May.

Then of course, the final attempt at a hail mary- the attempt to throw in the additional Profit- the amount was not stated but it was claimed to be substantial (we now know it to be £30.3m that remained in the Revaluation Reserve at time of disposal).

https://www.efl.com/contentassets/873a8914e09740d3b3a8848131ea10b8/210630---efl-v-derby-county---decision-on-sanction-final.pdf

They'll survive off the pitch, never much doubt. Hope they do too.

Oh yeah also the whole not crumbling to the appeal by the administrators- there was talk that maybe they would try to get a deal that encompasses both to reduce the total deduction.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

43 minutes ago, BigTone said:

Condensed Version 

Derby are doomed

Expanded Condensed Version

Wayne Rooney's Derby County™ are doomed.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I remember we all discussed this in summer 2019 on the FFP thread- the main one after the mere stadium sale issue- which ironically Derby are in the clear on.

How different the picture looks now eh- @Coppello I recall made some pertinent points about amortisation and FRS 102?

[Mr Popodopolous]

I also remember the following- honourable mentions...

1. Matt Hughes- -21. Honourable mention to him albeit the points deduction would be composed quite differently! He said it would be -21 when they were charged.
2. Matt Lawton...said in March 2019 that Aston Villa, Derby and Sheffield Wednesday could be in big trouble P&S wise- 2 out of 3 isn't bad and it might have been a perfect 3 had Aston Villa stayed down! Wonder if future charges on return, hope so...
3. Kieran Maguire- the man who emailed the EFL in June 2018, regarding concerns about amortisation. He initially got told to go away but vindication!

Oh and Rick Parry entering EFL HQ this afternoon.  Although it's actually maybe a better likeness for Trevor Birch.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[BigTone]

16 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Expanded Condensed Version

Wayne Rooney's Derby County™ are doomed.

Sorry, how remiss of me

[supercidered]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

Certainly there will be a QC out there who will take Wycombe's case. 

Who exactly they should sue I couldn't be sure. Is it Derby for initially cheating, or is it the EFL for delaying things. 

With Derby in the financial situation they are in I would suggest that the sensible option is to go at the EFL. IIRC Wyconbe want about £6m. I can't see the EFL paying that but maybe they would give Wycombe something.

Thinking a little outside the box but could there be scope for giving Wycombe a promotion, or if they get promoted this season then granting them immunity from relegation next season? I've not read the regs in detail, but presumably if enough clubs agreed to it then that could happen. 

I can't see them going after Derby but possibly EFL. If they do go after either, I can't see them getting any justice for their club.

I also can't see any of the last paragraph happening either. 

Life isn't fair, football isn't fair. Unfortunately for Wycombe whilst they have been royally shafted with this. I fear they will just have to suck this up and forever despise Derby County.

[SecretSam]

Looks like there are now only two relegation places left:

Derby get further points deduction

45 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Expanded Condensed Version

Wayne Rooney's Derby County™ are doomed.

If only I had a microscope, I could find my tiny, tiny violin and play it for them

[ExiledAjax]

10 minutes ago, supercidered said:

I can't see them going after Derby but possibly EFL. If they do go after either, I can't see them getting any justice for their club.

I also can't see any of the last paragraph happening either. 

Life isn't fair, football isn't fair. Unfortunately for Wycombe whilst they have been royally shafted with this. I fear they will just have to suck this up and forever despise Derby County.

I believe that Wycombe have already sent an 'invoice' or 'claim' to Derby/Derby's administrators requesting £6m as a creditor. Personally I see that as them simply staking their claim, I suspect they have zero expectation of that being paid, but asking for it shows that they think they deserve it. If they really think they can get something then I would think the real claim will got against the EFL, through proper litigation in the courts. I see their chance of success as minimal at best. 

Personally I would not mind Wycombe getting immunity from relegation following their next promotion to the Championship. Truth is they shouldn't have been relegated last season, and so some small token could be extended. Maybe if not full immunity then they could be 'given' Derby's deducted points? Pie in the sky I know as the other clubs would never agree to it, but it's an idea.

[Clevedon Red]

Title of thread needs changing perhaps?

[supercidered]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

I believe that Wycombe have already sent an 'invoice' or 'claim' to Derby/Derby's administrators requesting £6m as a creditor. Personally I see that as them simply staking their claim, I suspect they have zero expectation of that being paid, but asking for it shows that they think they deserve it. If they really think they can get something then I would think the real claim will got against the EFL, through proper litigation in the courts. I see their chance of success as minimal at best. 

Personally I would not mind Wycombe getting immunity from relegation following their next promotion to the Championship. Truth is they shouldn't have been relegated last season, and so some small token could be extended. Maybe if not full immunity then they could be 'given' Derby's deducted points? Pie in the sky I know as the other clubs would never agree to it, but it's an idea.

I totally get your sentiment and I share that. However, as much as fans and other clubs would also agree with sentiment. Ultimately, clubs would be looking after their own interests and not Wycombe Wanderers. In addition, it would open the biggest can of worms imaginable.

 

[supercidered]

I've not seen anything from Derby fans on here. There was one in particular that was bleating on about it all being unfair and got right on my t!ts. I think they called themselves Another Derby Fan. Have they posted since the new points deduction verdict? 

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by supercidered
spelling

[Pezo]

2 minutes ago, supercidered said:

I've not seen anything from Derby fans on here. There was one in particular that was bleating on about it all being unfair and got right on my t!ts. I think he was called Another Derby Fan. Have they posted since the new points deduction verdict? 

 

@AnotherDerbyFan?

[Mr Popodopolous]

Tbh I welcomed the contributions of @DerbyFan and @AnotherDerbyFan

Different perspective but good not to have an echo chamber- the latter did some very good work on financial/amortisation projections using 4 different methods from 2015/16 to 2023/24 IIRC!

Edited November 16, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Hxj]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

@Hxjinteresting that club still need to produce some accounts even if not at CH (26.2.ii)

Yep - about every angle covered off that has been raised on here - almost as if the EFL read this thread!

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Any idea whether they might be in further breach for the latest FFP cycle / period too.

More than likely in my view.

2020/21 was the sum of 2017/18, 2018/19, plus the average of 2019/20 and 2020/21.

2021/22 will be the sum of 2018/19, the average of 2019/20 and 2020/21, plus 2021/22.

2020/21 was a breach by £2 million and 2017/18 was a guess £20 million profit for FFP.  Consequently 2021/22 will need to be a £22 million profit to avoid another FFP failure.  The princople of 'Loss Reset' does not seem to apply.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Hxj

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Hxj said:

Yep - about every angle covered off that has been raised on here - almost as if the EFL read this thread!

More than likely in my view.

2020/21 was the sum of 2017/18, 2018/19, plus the average of 2019/20 and 2020/21.

2021/22 will be the sum of 2018/19, the average of 2019/20 and 2020/21, plus 2021/22.

2020/21 was a breach by £2 million and 2017/18 was a guess £20 million profit for FFP.  Consequently 2021/22 will need to be a £22 million profit to avoid another FFP failure.  The princople of 'Loss Reset' does not seem to apply.

Would be good to know the figs that go in each box

[Hxj]

3 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Certainly there will be a QC out there who will take Wycombe's case. 

Wycombe's case will have to be a dispute under the EFL Arbitration scheme.  I can see Wycombe mounting a dispute against Derby claiming the £6 million as a 'Football Creditor'.  That should foul up a quick and clean exit from the Administration for some considerable time.

[Hxj]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Would be good to know the figs that go in each box

Some are in the published decisions I think. Will dig them out and see what there is.  What we do know is that 2021/22 has to be a profit £2 million more than 2017/18 ....

[ExiledAjax]

12 minutes ago, Hxj said:

Wycombe's case will have to be a dispute under the EFL Arbitration scheme.  I can see Wycombe mounting a dispute against Derby claiming the £6 million as a 'Football Creditor'.  That should foul up a quick and clean exit from the Administration for some considerable time.

Genuinely interested in why the EFL Arbitration is the correct 'court' for that to be heard.

Also, if admin extends into 2022, and no buyer has been found, then is there a prospect of a serious fire sale of players? If in January, Derby received an offer of £1m for Tom Lawrence, would the Admins be duty bound to accept that offer? I honestly don't remember enough about Admins duties to be certain of the answer. The overriding duty though is to act in the interests of the creditors - and in reality that means making the most cash available for them. My gut is that the would have to accept it as it represents the realisation of an asset, and saves wages, so creating more cash for the creditors' pot.

I guess a full fire sale is out of the question, as that same duty requires the Admins to get market value for each player, so they can't realistically be lowballed by any club that fancies a Derby player on the cheap.

Could see a lot of exits in Jan though?

[Mr Popodopolous]

Paragraphs 23-25 are quite interesting- bit more detail about the suspended -3.

Basically, barring an EFL error if they do not comply with the budget, -9 becomes -12. However that would not be the end of the process, as I have thought that would be a downpayment- as in -3 and then whatever an IDC would award for the breach itself, in the P&S period to 2022 be it losses or anything else- and the 3 pts would not mitigate any penalty for breach.

Paragraph 26.2 is also quite good.

In some ways, arguably more significant than the points deduction.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Hampshire reds]

How can Reading sign Andy Carroll when there is a chance they could also have points deducted 

[Hxj]

7 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Genuinely interested in why the EFL Arbitration is the correct 'court' for that to be heard.

EFL Official Website - Section 9 – Arbitration  Memebership includes an agreement to arbitrate, which precludes any litigation between the clubs outside the written agreement.

 

13 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

My gut is that the would have to accept it as it represents the realisation of an asset, and saves wages, so creating more cash for the creditors' pot.

That would be my expectation, especially where the player is out of contract in the summer.  I could see an alternative argument where Derby are close to not being relegated and in that case the best interests of creditors could be better served by not selling and maintaining Championship status, however I expect that by 1 January that will be a pipe dream.

[Davefevs]

48 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Paragraphs 23-25 are quite interesting- bit more detail about the suspended -3.

Basically, barring an EFL error if they do not comply with the budget, -9 becomes -12. However that would not be the end of the process, as I have thought that would be a downpayment- as in -3 and then whatever an IDC would award for the breach itself, in the P&S period to 2022 be it losses or anything else- and the 3 pts would not mitigate any penalty for breach.

Paragraph 26.2 is also quite good.

In some ways, arguably more significant than the points deduction.

Yep, that was really good to see that….basically another 3 for failing to do what you agreed, but not ruling out other P&S penalties of this current cycle limits are breached too.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, that was really good to see that….basically another 3 for failing to do what you agreed, but not ruling out other P&S penalties of this current cycle limits are breached too.

Wonder how they will calculate that.

My basic assumption is reset 2018/19 and the combined average of 2019/20 and 2020/21 both to £13m.

As such, an FFP target of £13m this season? That said, without knowing the precise figures of each individual restated year it is hard to say.

[Jerseybean]

????????: Derby have accepted a fresh nine-point deduction from the EFL.

This will leave Wayne Rooney’s side 18 points adrift of Championship safety.

 

[exAtyeoMax]

 

 

[Jerseybean]

From the Derby fans forum 

There's only one person to blame for all of this, one..

He's lied to us, conned us and left us high and dry.

The EFL are applying rules that are in place for every single club. 

We've lost more than we should. 

Morris tried to flount the rules, failed and left us.

Putting us in administration was the final nail.

But if you wanna sing F the EFL for applying punishments to us for breaking rules that we knew were there and knew what the punishment would be then go ahead.

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, Jerseybean said:

From the Derby fans forum 

There's only one person to blame for all of this, one..

He's lied to us, conned us and left us high and dry.

The EFL are applying rules that are in place for every single club. 

We've lost more than we should. 

Morris tried to flount the rules, failed and left us.

Putting us in administration was the final nail.

But if you wanna sing F the EFL for applying punishments to us for breaking rules that we knew were there and knew what the punishment would be then go ahead.

Is that you @Mr Popodopolousposting on their forum again

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Is that you @Mr Popodopolousposting on their forum again

Let's not blow cover! 

Whoever it was, I like use of the word 'flount'.

A new word? Quite apt too...

As Mel...

Flaunted his cash

Flouted the regs

Then when things went South he Flounced out of there!

Edited November 17, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[AnotherDerbyFan]

19 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

They'll survive off the pitch, never much doubt. Hope they do too.

There were plenty of occasions when I very much doubted you hoped that

 

16 hours ago, Hxj said:

Yep - about every angle covered off that has been raised on here - almost as if the EFL read this thread!

More than likely in my view.

2020/21 was the sum of 2017/18, 2018/19, plus the average of 2019/20 and 2020/21.

2021/22 will be the sum of 2018/19, the average of 2019/20 and 2020/21, plus 2021/22.

2020/21 was a breach by £2 million and 2017/18 was a guess £20 million profit for FFP.  Consequently 2021/22 will need to be a £22 million profit to avoid another FFP failure.  The principle of 'Loss Reset' does not seem to apply.

The figures appear to reset based on my old calcs, although I am missing about £16m of losses - dependant on what P&S profit/loss was for 2020

 

16 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Would be good to know the figs that go in each box

To 20/21 should include 17/18 and not 21/22
To 21/22 should include 18/19 and not 22/23

My estimates:

14//15 -£5.6m
15/16 -£22.1m
16/17 -£19.9m
17/18 -£0.6m
18/19 -£29.2m
19/20 -£30.1m
20/21 -£12.3m
21/22 -£11.5m

£8m underestimate for 2019
£6m underestimate for 2021

Estimate for 2022 is losses of £45.7m - just under £6m over the limit (let's hope my figures start to balance out )

[AnotherDerbyFan]

30 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

There were plenty of occasions when I very much doubted you hoped that

 

The figures appear to reset based on my old calcs, although I am missing about £16m of losses - dependant on what P&S profit/loss was for 2020

 

To 20/21 should include 17/18 and not 21/22
To 21/22 should include 18/19 and not 22/23

My estimates:

14//15 -£5.6m
15/16 -£22.1m
16/17 -£19.9m
17/18 -£0.6m
18/19 -£29.2m
19/20 -£30.1m
20/21 -£12.3m
21/22 -£11.5m

£8m underestimate for 2019
£6m underestimate for 2021

Estimate for 2022 is losses of £45.7m - just under £6m over the limit (let's hope my figures start to balance out )

I lie. Forgot about the reset values for the 2022 period.

Correction: Estimate for 2022 is losses of £37.2m - just inside the P&S limit (assuming £13m rather than £5m per season)

[Davefevs]

@AnotherDerbyFan ta for the numbers.

here’s my xls

Hope I’ve made the right corrections.

[sephjnr]

8 hours ago, billywedlock said:

Their fans may just wake up and sing F the Morris. He absolutely rung them out . That he is not facing criminal charges shows weakness in our company structures set up. Not sure their damage is over yet, the administrators look to have found a very big pile of poo. 

Peter Risdale never saw court for fleecing Leeds. Steve Dale hasn't seen court for what's happened to Bury. This has to change.

[AnotherDerbyFan]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

@AnotherDerbyFan ta for the numbers.

here’s my xls

Hope I’ve made the right corrections.

What are your thoughts on resets?
Either they're reset and I've overestimated the drop in wage bill and/or change in revenue, or... they don't reset and I've underestimated wage bill and/or revenue increase.

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 hours ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

There were plenty of occasions when I very much doubted you hoped that

I have to say, looking back now my views ebbed and flowed over the time period. I was genuinely outraged by the P&S issues, the denial and had a horrible nagging fluctuating fear that Derby woud get off the hook one way or another, which crystalised my views.

The denial, the obfusucation- and yes in the case of a reasonable chunk of fans, the on strings stuff I saw as quite objectionable. I won't write an essay on my views, there have been nearly 2 years of this haha!

I was also amazed that fans or a lot of them a) Seemed not to grasp or chose to disregard that just because cleared in IDC1 to 2018, was by no means the end of it and b) A few talking of signing Adam Armstrong in Summer 2021. Crazy given an FFP crunch even if only budgetary was coming one way or another. Takeovers don't reset it either.

Perhaps I have been a bit unfair at times but some of the flak on DCFCFans inevitably hardened my position at times.

Oh yes, some of the club statements throughout the piece look a bit hollow now. They grated somewhat as well.

The £30m Revaluation Reserve...did you think there was a realistic chance of inclusion? Apologies if already covered. I had significant doubts let's say.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

35 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

What are your thoughts on resets?
Either they're reset and I've overestimated the drop in wage bill and/or change in revenue, or... they don't reset and I've underestimated wage bill and/or revenue increase.

Dunno, was just plotting your figures!

What are “resets”?

[AnotherDerbyFan]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I have to say, looking back now my views ebbed and flowed over the time period. I was genuinely outraged by the P&S issues, the denial and had a horrible nagging fluctuating fear that Derby woud get off the hook one way or another, which crystalised my views.

The denial, the obfusucation- and yes in the case of a reasonable chunk of fans, the on strings stuff I saw as quite objectionable. I won't write an essay on my views, there have been nearly 2 years of this haha!

I was also amazed that fans or a lot of them a) Seemed not to grasp or chose to disregard that just because cleared in IDC1 to 2018, was by no means the end of it and b) A few talking of signing Adam Armstrong in Summer 2021. Crazy given an FFP crunch even if only budgetary was coming one way or another. Takeovers don't reset it either.

Perhaps I have been a bit unfair at times but some of the flak on DCFCFans inevitably hardened my position at times.

Oh yes, some of the club statements throughout the piece look a bit hollow now. They grated somewhat as well.

The £30m Revaluation Reserve...did you think there was a realistic chance of inclusion? Apologies if already covered. I had significant doubts let's say.

Every club has a section of fans like that - they have no concept of what is affordable. I'm sure I could dig up a thread on this forum wondering why you aren't splashing the cash on £10m signings 

I hoped it would be included, but always excluded it from my calcs for the very reason of it being extremely unlikely to count.

 

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Dunno, was just plotting your figures!

What are “resets”?

If a club fails one period, annual losses exceeding £13m would be 'reset' to £13m to calculate P&S losses for future periods.

So for the 3 years to 2018, the calculation would be £13m + £13m + £0.6m  = totalling £26m losses, rather than £42.6m if using the actual figures.

[Davefevs]

43 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Every club has a section of fans like that - they have no concept of what is affordable. I'm sure I could dig up a thread on this forum wondering why you aren't splashing the cash on £10m signings 

I hoped it would be included, but always excluded it from my calcs for the very reason of it being extremely unlikely to count.

 

If a club fails one period, annual losses exceeding £13m would be 'reset' to £13m to calculate P&S losses for future periods.

So for the 3 years to 2018, the calculation would be £13m + £13m + £0.6m  = totalling £26m losses, rather than £42.6m if using the actual figures.

Ah, got you….guess you can’t compound the penalty, have to take the medicine, “reset” the numbers and go forward from there.

Is there still doubt over the 20/21 actuals (see note 26.2), i.e. could the £40.96m loss be different?

So, going forward, do we see something like this….resets in Orange (halved each £13m in the covid years)

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Every club has a section of fans like that - they have no concept of what is affordable. I'm sure I could dig up a thread on this forum wondering why you aren't splashing the cash on £10m signings 

That is true, but some of it was remarkable. Talking the whole period, I am assuming Mel had significant input into the rousing club statements. He has now gone so that helps..

4 hours ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

I hoped it would be included, but always excluded it from my calcs for the very reason of it being extremely unlikely to count.

Yes, agreed. Towards equity or other similar categories certainly but seems ropey from an accounting, let alone a P&S viewpoint through Profit and Loss. I doubt that final flourish did Derby any favours although the die was probably cast by then.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Interesting post on the Preston forum.

A suggestion that at least two more clubs are close to deductions- one above and one below Preston.

Will try to post the posts later but if it's 2, then I would suggest Stoke would be a decent candidate.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Interesting post on the Preston forum.

A suggestion that at least two more clubs are close to deductions- one above and one below Preston.

Will try to post the posts later but if it's 2, then I would suggest Stoke would be a decent candidate.

Cardiff?

[Unan]

17 hours ago, billywedlock said:

Their fans may just wake up and sing F the Morris. He absolutely rung them out . That he is not facing criminal charges shows weakness in our company structures set up. Not sure their damage is over yet, the administrators look to have found a very big pile of poo. 

Limited liability companies bread innovation, but that’s for another thread 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Marcus Aurelius

[Loosey Boy]

30 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Cardiff?

I do hope so!

[ExiledAjax]

46 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Interesting post on the Preston forum.

A suggestion that at least two more clubs are close to deductions- one above and one below Preston.

Will try to post the posts later but if it's 2, then I would suggest Stoke would be a decent candidate.

Would we be surprised to see further points deductions this season though? Just given how long it can take the EFL to come to these decisions, it feels like even if proceedings were started now we'd see deductions for 2022/23 rather than anymore this term.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, billywedlock said:

I don’t actually agree with FFP . What I disagree with is club owners placing debt on a club with no intention of ever paying it . How can FFP make sense when the league allows the Prem league to artificially inflate the income of relegated clubs . Why is it not possible me for a wealthy owner to provide the same level of financial support to the same level. That is unfair competition and a nonsense .One club gets money via the Prem yet another is not allowed to invest at the same level . That is unfair competition. Why not allow any club to invest the same as a parachute payment club as a cash injection . 
Show the money of course and not a Mel Morris talk but no trousers 

Yep, needs to be cash injection or some form of bond deposited with the EFL.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Cardiff?

Do hope so! Although I struggle to see how, unless they are operating on the lower levels due to equity not being stuck in...

Cardiff

2017/18- Upper Loss Limit £13m

2018/19- Upper Loss Limit £35m

2019/20- Upper Loss Limit £13m

2020/21- Upper Loss Limit £13m

The last two averaged into one of course.

FFP adjusted for Covid in this case is £13m + £35m + £13m + £13m=£74m.

£74m/4 x 3=£55.5m.

They would need to have exceeded *FFP losses of £55.5m

*=Subject to equity, otherwise £15m. Or anything between £15-55.5m.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Do hope so! Although I struggle to see how, unless they are operating on the lower levels due to equity not being stuck in...

Cardiff

2017/18- Upper Loss Limit £13m

2018/19- Upper Loss Limit £35m

2019/20- Upper Loss Limit £13m

2020/21- Upper Loss Limit £13m

The last two averaged into one of course.

FFP adjusted for Covid in this case is £13m + £35m + £13m + £13m=£74m.

£74m/4 x 3=£55.5m.

They would need to have exceeded *FFP losses of £55.5m

*=Subject to equity, otherwise £15m. Or anything between £15-55.5m.

Yeah, very unlikely they fail P&S….wishful thinking.

Cant see any other team below PNE being in for P&S probs, unless Hull’s loan monitoring triggers something.

 

[Port Said Red]

50 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yeah, very unlikely they fail P&S….wishful thinking.

Cant see any other team below PNE being in for P&S probs, unless Hull’s loan monitoring triggers something.

Not us is it?

[Davefevs]

30 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Not us is it?

Nah….although next season might be interesting….as it will be several other clubs.

[Davefevs]

Just been thinking about the Derby v Reading points.

Derby:

If you sum the 3 periods they were over (ignore where they were inside), then they were £21.44m in excess.

Reading:

we’re £18.809m in excess, but worked with the EFL, unlike Mel Morris.

That might account for the 3 points difference, albeit Reading have more points suspended and a longer period that suspended deduction lasts until.

[ExiledAjax]

35 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Just been thinking about the Derby v Reading points.

Derby:

If you sum the 3 periods they were over (ignore where they were inside), then they were £21.44m in excess.

Reading:

we’re £18.809m in excess, but worked with the EFL, unlike Mel Morris.

That might account for the 3 points difference, albeit Reading have more points suspended and a longer period that suspended deduction lasts until.

I think my conclusion is that Derby have got off pretty lightly. They were  egregious in their cheating, audacious with their attitude, frustrated the process at every turn, and yet in some ways have less punishment than Reading.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Yeah, very unlikely they fail P&S….wishful thinking.

Cant see any other team below PNE being in for P&S probs, unless Hull’s loan monitoring triggers something.

 

Agreed- next season could be interesting as they would drop down to the £39m limit going into 2022/23 and starting point would be a greater loss or a loss as well.

Unsure how the provisions- ie for Sala and other legal cases- all fit in, whether it could help or hinder them but their accounts do show provisions for both 2018/19 and 2019/20.

Hull that's a good point, certainly wouldn't be a P&S breach in their case...probably just transfer restrictions but who knows.

3 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

Not us is it?

 

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Nah….although next season might be interesting….as it will be several other clubs.

Definitely not to this year- next season as you say might be interesting but I think we will walk the line and do what is necessary within the rules as we always do- we will take tough decisions on the pitch in order to maintain compliance and some freedom off it.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

I think my conclusion is that Derby have got off pretty lightly. They were  egregious in their cheating, audacious with their attitude, frustrated the process at every turn, and yet in some ways have less punishment than Reading.

Wouldn't disagree with much of that...although justice delayed is justice denied, it looks like justice will finally be served.

Talking of the legal side...and by the way the fact that the EFL still have not seen Derby's 2018/19 and to a lesser extent, 2019/20 accounts is a bit of a shocker- the P&S calculations yes...but the actual accounts though? Even possible that they have not seen the re-stated accounts for 2016, 2017 and 2018!

Wouldn't make a difference to the P&S scenario but it is fairly stunning seeing it written down.

Yes, the legal side- you know the law better than me, you could probably explain a few things to the rest of us.

These seem quite good and as I said the other day significant...

26 i) Well that is or should be a given.

ii) Publish itself- assume that means on their website? That should be the consolidated rather than club surely.

iii) A given but nice to see it upheld.

iv) That seems fairly significant...the EFL must approve in advance any exceptional items that appear in their P&S.

v) Well I wondered and thought it unlikely 

vi) Good. Removes the chance to try it on and reduce the target for this year.

vii) Important- if we recall Sevco 5112 Limited took over and then Gellaw Newco 203 became the new Topco- hopefully it is not the club accounts in isolation for 2021/22 but the whole group in order to get a fair picture of P&S to this season. If we recall, Derby included most of the income from the Group- Club DCFC, The Derby County FC Academy Limited, Stadia DCFC Limited in the club accounts but some of the costs were in the Sevco 5112 Limited.

That above is the group/consolidated...vs the club below. 2018 is comparable 12 months vs 12 months but the above for 2017 is 10 months. Granted the EFL use of the consolidated would halt any FFP issue there but if not...

[AnotherDerbyFan]

13 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Interesting post on the Preston forum.

A suggestion that at least two more clubs are close to deductions- one above and one below Preston.

Will try to post the posts later but if it's 2, then I would suggest Stoke would be a decent candidate.

Stoke and Blackburn would have been where my money went - but both are above Preston 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Stoke and Blackburn would have been where my money went - but both are above Preston 

Stoke - agreed.

Just been tweeting with Andy - a fanalyst for Blackburn.  He reckons they are totally ok, as they sold the training ground and Armstrong.  Although Armstrong might only have netted them a smaller figure due to Newcastle have a 40% sell-on profit clause.  So £15m on a £5m buy ends up being £11m received net….but 3 years into a 4 year deal, so book value £1.25m, so still tidy.

[semblar]

13 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Do hope so! Although I struggle to see how, unless they are operating on the lower levels due to equity not being stuck in...

Cardiff

2017/18- Upper Loss Limit £13m

2018/19- Upper Loss Limit £35m

2019/20- Upper Loss Limit £13m

2020/21- Upper Loss Limit £13m

The last two averaged into one of course.

FFP adjusted for Covid in this case is £13m + £35m + £13m + £13m=£74m.

£74m/4 x 3=£55.5m.

They would need to have exceeded *FFP losses of £55.5m

*=Subject to equity, otherwise £15m. Or anything between £15-55.5m.

Is this how it works with the COVID-averaging? I thought it was 13 + (35 + 13)/2 + 13 = 50