Derby County

[Davefevs]

14 minutes ago, semblar said:

Is this how it works with the COVID-averaging? I thought it was 13 + (35 + 13)/2 + 13 = 50

That’s how I thought it would work too….but Mr P did it explain it to me once before…..he’s gonna need to explain it again!

[Hxj]

50 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That’s how I thought it would work too

But being FFP it doesn't - @Mr Popodopolous is correct, the regulations state:

3.4          In respect of Season 2020/21, the Lower Loss Threshold and Upper Loss Threshold for each Club shall be calculated based on the aggregation of the Club’s Annual Lower Loss Threshold and Annual Upper Loss Threshold for T, T-1, T-2 and T-3 as per the figures set out table in Rule 3.1 as amended by dividing those figures by 4 and then multiplied them by 3.

[Hxj]

10 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

vii) Important

What vii) also does is keep the Stadium Group outside the FFP group.  Under the current rules the new owner could put a new TopCo in place above both the 'Football Group' and the 'Stadium Group' and unilaterly decide to nominate 'TopCo' as the FFP group.  It also means that the lease rent will be a deduction for FFP purposes, restricting the losses that can be incurred elsewhere.

[Davefevs]

22 minutes ago, Hxj said:

But being FFP it doesn't - @Mr Popodopolous is correct, the regulations state:

3.4          In respect of Season 2020/21, the Lower Loss Threshold and Upper Loss Threshold for each Club shall be calculated based on the aggregation of the Club’s Annual Lower Loss Threshold and Annual Upper Loss Threshold for T, T-1, T-2 and T-3 as per the figures set out table in Rule 3.1 as amended by dividing those figures by 4 and then multiplied them by 3.

Ta.

Ah, I recall this now….that is the formula for working out the overall “threshold”.  However am I right in thinking the actual amount of losses is still what is submitted, but the 19/20 and 20/21 years are aggregated and halved?

So a club with a PL season will be 35,13,13,13 = 74 / 4 * 3 = 55.5 allowance

But in terms of inside or outside the allowance.

£10m loss in 18/19

£20m loss in 19/20

£30m loss in 20/21

£30m loss in 21/22

would not be £90m / 4 * 3 = £67.5m

but £10m + (£50m/2) + £30m = £65m?

Edited November 18, 2021 by Davefevs

[Hxj]

17 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

would not be £90m / 4 * 3 = £67.5m

but £10m + (£50m/2) + £30m = £65m?

Yep. There's a simple way of doing things ......

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, Hxj said:

What vii) also does is keep the Stadium Group outside the FFP group.  Under the current rules the new owner could put a new TopCo in place above both the 'Football Group' and the 'Stadium Group' and unilaterly decide to nominate 'TopCo' as the FFP group.  It also means that the lease rent will be a deduction for FFP purposes, restricting the losses that can be incurred elsewhere.

Thanks.

Interesting to see how that plays out and what the rent- or fair value rent substituted in for FFP purposes- might be.

[AnotherDerbyFan]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Ta.

Ah, I recall this now….that is the formula for working out the overall “threshold”.  However am I right in thinking the actual amount of losses is still what is submitted, but the 19/20 and 20/21 years are aggregated and halved?

So a club with a PL season will be 35,13,13,13 = 74 / 4 * 3 = 55.5 allowance

But in terms of inside or outside the allowance.

£10m loss in 18/19

£20m loss in 19/20

£30m loss in 20/21

£30m loss in 21/22

would not be £90m / 4 * 3 = £67.5m

but £10m + (£50m/2) + £30m = £65m?

Surely not?

4 seasons in the Championship would be 13,13,13,13 = 52/4*3 = £9.75m 

[Hxj]

15 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

4 seasons in the Championship would be 13,13,13,13 = 52/4*3 = £9.75m 

Looks like your calculator is the one that Morris and Pearce used!

[AnotherDerbyFan]

56 minutes ago, Hxj said:

Looks like your calculator is the one that Morris and Pearce used!

oh dear...

*delete* *delete* *delete* 

Edited November 18, 2021 by AnotherDerbyFan

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Surely not?

4 seasons in the Championship would be 13,13,13,13 = 52/4*3 = £9.75m 

26 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

oh dear...

*delete* *delete* *delete* 

The calculator is working to an EFL conspiracy!

[Jerseybean]

Wayne’s delusions seem to be getting worse…..https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59263716

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Jerseybean said:

Wayne’s delusions seem to be getting worse…..https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59263716

No guarantees they’ll even make it through the season.

[Lanterne Rouge]

Just trying to get a siege mentality going - us against the world.

[GreedyHarry]

3 hours ago, Jerseybean said:

Wayne’s delusions seem to be getting worse…..https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59263716

I never expected him to stick out the rough times like he has. I’ve a bit of grudging respect for that.

[Davefevs]

Just now, GreedyHarry said:

I never expected him to stick out the rough times like he has. I’ve a bit of grudging respect for that.

….and give up £100k p.w?

[GreedyHarry]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

….and give up £100k p.w?

How much!!!!!!!!! Bloody hell. Grudging respect removed

[Hxj]

The Statements of Affairs for the Derby companies in Administration are at Companies House, but not yet viewable.

Should make some interesting reading.

[Bristol Rob]

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 18/11/2021 at 10:51, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Stoke and Blackburn would have been where my money went - but both are above Preston 

Blackburn, I've always thought they're on the cusp but the right side of the line. Although selling Armstrong absolutely will have helped. I have my questions about the training ground sale and leaseback, group 

Stoke, think they have to be the next big candidates.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Had a quick look at the Statement of Affairs for the Club, Sevco and Gellaw Newco 203. Pretty limited information all told.

No reference to Middlesbrough or Wycombe's claims. Think it said Middlesbrough due £500 or something, but the actual mooted claims have they been ignored?

I've seen other statements of affairs that have stated a basic profit and loss for the last few years. Not this one! Unsure even what their current running costs are though haven't looked in depth.

[Loosey Boy]

7 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Blackburn, I've always thought they're on the cusp but the right side of the line. Although selling Armstrong absolutely will have helped. I have my questions about the training ground sale and leaseback, group 

Stoke, think they have to be the next big candidates.

Blackburn look to be OK - as you say, Stoke could be next……sense Cardiff not far behind too

[Davefevs]

19 minutes ago, Loosey Boy said:

Blackburn look to be OK - as you say, Stoke could be next……sense Cardiff not far behind too

Cardiff ok from FFP imho

[Mr Popodopolous]

While seeing creditors stiffed is not at all amusing, two entries made me laugh a bit.

Smith Cooper.

Their auditors. Pretty small violin!

DCFCFans.

A lot sang the praises of Mel and defended him until quite late in the day, do we now know why!

[Hxj]

Morris is owed £123 million.

Stadium debt of £75 million doesn't appear, so repaid.

 

 

 

[chinapig]

18 minutes ago, Hxj said:

Morris is owed £123 million.

Stadium debt of £75 million doesn't appear, so repaid.

 

 

 

Crikey, £123m?!

I imagine Derby fans will expect him to write it off as penance but I doubt he is in any position to do so.

Talk about hero to zero. You'd have to have a heart of stone not to laugh.

[Davefevs]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59358676

[Bristol Rob]

With debts of that size, liquidation must be a possibility.

[Davefevs]

Just now, Bristol Rob said:

With debts of that size, liquidation must be a possibility.

Lot of money for a Lg1 club isn’t it?

How much do think (realistically) someone would have to pay to buy them (and satisfy creditors).

Man City are on the list of creditors…they are owed £10.  Yes you read that correctly.

[chinapig]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Lot of money for a Lg1 club isn’t it?

How much do think (realistically) someone would have to pay to buy them (and satisfy creditors).

Man City are on the list of creditors…they are owed £10.  Yes you read that correctly.

If a new owner is to take on the debts surely they would expect to buy for a nominal sum?

Though it is complicated by there being 6 companies involved.

[ExiledAjax]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Lot of money for a Lg1 club isn’t it?

Almost a write off surely? As in the debts are pretty close to being more than the club is actually worth?

The consequences of selling your main concrete asset coming back to bite you.

[Bristol Rob]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Lot of money for a Lg1 club isn’t it?

How much do think (realistically) someone would have to pay to buy them (and satisfy creditors).

Man City are on the list of creditors…they are owed £10.  Yes you read that correctly.

The club has zero value, the fact that the day one investment will be in the 10s of millions and that is before you buy the stadium off another company means only an idiot would entertain the idea.

[Hxj]

33 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

How much do think (realistically) someone would have to pay to buy them (and satisfy creditors).

My best guess at the moment is that the cash needed to fund the football club to repay everyone would be around £70 million, plus the costs of the Administration.  That assumes that the funds owing to connected companies are not paid.  Bear in mind that HMRC are in a position to block any CVA in respect of the Football Club, so if they follow their published practice that is what will have to happen.

The split between Morris and any purchaser would need to be agreed.

Something about a barge pole springs to mind.

Liquidation still looks like a real outcome.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Hxj

[HappyClapper]

1 hour ago, Hxj said:

My best guess at the moment is that the cash needed to fund the football club to repay everyone would be around £70 million, plus the costs of the Administration.  That assumes that the funds owing to connected companies are not paid.  Bear in mind that HMRC are in a position to block any CVA in respect of the Football Club, so if they follow their published practice that is what will have to happen.

The split between Morris and any purchaser would need to be agreed.

Something about a barge pole springs to mind.

Liquidation still looks like a real outcome.

If liquidation is the outcome I wonder what the split regarding blame would be. EFL v Morris?

[chinapig]

9 minutes ago, HappyClapper said:

If liquidation is the outcome I wonder what the split regarding blame would be. EFL v Morris?

It will be:

1. The EFL

2. Steve Gibson

3. Kieran MaGuire

4. Mel Morris

5. @Mr Popodopolous

[Hxj]

Oh and if Morris found the £75 million to pay for the stadium he has paid in £198 million, plus the £55 million he wrote off in Sevco 5113 in the corporate restructuring which saw the Stadium group formed.

And let's assume that he contributed £13 million a year in line with EFL requirements, he joined in August 2015, so that would be the 2015/16, 2016/17, 2017/18, 2018/19, 2019/20 and 2020/21 seasons or another £78 million.

So that makes a loss of around £325 million.

To create a business worth nothing.

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Hxj

[Davefevs]

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 20/11/2021 at 13:58, chinapig said:

It will be:

1. The EFL

2. Steve Gibson

3. Kieran MaGuire

4. Mel Morris

5. @Mr Popodopolous

To add-

6. Rob Couhig

7. Assorted journos- Nixon, Matt Hughes and even at times John Percy aren't loved over there but especially Matt Hughes...

[Mr Popodopolous]

Two quick Derby notes.

One positive- some of their fans looking to raise the amount they owe to St John's Ambulance at the time of administration. I'm a big critic but some credit there...then again it's £8k so it should be easy but credit to those who contribute.

https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/stjohndcfc?

On an amusing note, I listened into Radio Derby last week and their phone in after the -9 for FFP confirmed along with not contesting the -12. About 45 mins in on Tuesday's episode there was a pillock named David. Felt "cheated", how I laughed...bewildered.

Strong shades of the joker who runs their site not seeing administration coming at all- might try and post the link later/tomorrow. It's on catchup anyway. Wonder if it was him!

Edited November 22, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

On a side note, does anyone know whether match day hospitality at Pride Park is home fans only...

...As if not, seeing their on pitch demise into League One when we are there from a comfortable vantage point in the Spring could be pleasant.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Hxj]

23 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

whether match day hospitality at Pride Park is home fans only

Any one can book as long as you go in disguise!  I was taken by a client about 10 years ago - we had a meeting at the Stadium and a tour beforehand - which given the state of Ashton Gate at the time was a revelation.

At the end of the tour we stood on the edge of the hallowed turf and got asked if we had any questions - "Where's the free bar mate?" was the response, luckily I was on the train and a taxi home!

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 22/11/2021 at 21:17, Hxj said:

Any one can book as long as you go in disguise!  I was taken by a client about 10 years ago - we had a meeting at the Stadium and a tour beforehand - which given the state of Ashton Gate at the time was a revelation.

At the end of the tour we stood on the edge of the hallowed turf and got asked if we had any questions - "Where's the free bar mate?" was the response, luckily I was on the train and a taxi home!

 

Haha I would definitely be going in disguise given some of the posts about Derby! More sensibly, yeah whatever corporate area dresscode is, no display of alliegance etc.

This might interest us all. The usual q's and special pleading but in amongst it, reference to suspension of withdrawal of membership. Wasn't aware it was even on the table!?

https://ramstrust.org.uk/wp/efl-response-to-ramstrust-questions/

Question 1.

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Haha I would definitely be going in disguise given some of the posts about Derby! More sensibly, yeah whatever corporate area dresscode is, no display of alliegance etc.

This might interest us all. The usual q's and special pleading but in amongst it, reference to suspension of withdrawal of membership. Wasn't aware it was even on the table!?

https://ramstrust.org.uk/wp/efl-response-to-ramstrust-questions/

Question 1.

Yeh I saw that as well.

I wondered if it's automatically delivered upon entering administration? The EFL might feel they want the option to expel a club pretty quickly if an admin goes badly or liquidation becomes obvious. If they get the notice in straight away then the option is there ready to go. Might also explain why it's been withdrawn, as it seems the admin is going fairly smoothly.

[Davefevs]

55 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Yeh I saw that as well.

I wondered if it's automatically delivered upon entering administration? The EFL might feel they want the option to expel a club pretty quickly if an admin goes badly or liquidation becomes obvious. If they get the notice in straight away then the option is there ready to go. Might also explain why it's been withdrawn, as it seems the admin is going fairly smoothly.

Love the bit about not being able to play youngsters because that would mean they couldn’t get a free transfer in.  If Rooney thought they would’ve played normally, then why is looking at costlier players (albeit on free transfers)?  Cake an eat it.

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Yeh I saw that as well.

I wondered if it's automatically delivered upon entering administration? The EFL might feel they want the option to expel a club pretty quickly if an admin goes badly or liquidation becomes obvious. If they get the notice in straight away then the option is there ready to go. Might also explain why it's been withdrawn, as it seems the admin is going fairly smoothly.

Good point, might well be. Bury of course had fixtures suspended and were eventually expelled and Bolton seemed to have some kind of deadline/notice period. Bury were in an insolvency situation but still owned by Dale IIRC, and Bolton I think were in administration- it's harder to say how routine it is as those two played out in the public domain more than this one...Wigan I don't recall but that could be a difference between going into administration mid-season and the starting a season in administration.

12 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Love the bit about not being able to play youngsters because that would mean they couldn’t get a free transfer in.  If Rooney thought they would’ve played normally, then why is looking at costlier players (albeit on free transfers)?  Cake an eat it.

Cake and eat it big time.

Done a little bit of reading and this time DCFCFans seems to have an answer...it's in the articles of association somewhere.

Seems to cover it.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Having said that, their administrators seem very bullish- and one tactic that was mooted could be a goer, which I've never heard of in a football context. Helping to fund a shortfall if needed through non-refundable deposits from prospective buyers.

They are also talking about putting the club and ground or club and ground companies back into one holding company...significant FFP issue there IMO, 20 year lease, rent- fair value rent for FFP purposes, of course the cost of the ground mooted as £20m ie the cost of MSD debenture.

Hope they survive off the pitch but feel that they deserve quite a hard landing financially speaking for a while.

https://ramstrust.org.uk/wp/supporters-group-meeting-with-quantuma-23-11-2021/

It also says that bids for players have been turned down.

[JackofromSanJavier]

16 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Haha I would definitely be going in disguise given some of the posts about Derby! More sensibly, yeah whatever corporate area dresscode is, no display of alliegance etc.

This might interest us all. The usual q's and special pleading but in amongst it, reference to suspension of withdrawal of membership. Wasn't aware it was even on the table!?

https://ramstrust.org.uk/wp/efl-response-to-ramstrust-questions/

Question 1.

Am I correct in recalling that the 'old' club shop used to stock subtle BCFC ties?  Tried to buy one online before heading to the Riverside but had no joy.  If anyone can find a source (I can't) i'd appreciate a link.  

[Simez]

3 hours ago, JackofromSanJavier said:

Am I correct in recalling that the 'old' club shop used to stock subtle BCFC ties?  Tried to buy one online before heading to the Riverside but had no joy.  If anyone can find a source (I can't) i'd appreciate a link.  

I bought a club tie back in about 1992 so they defo used to sell them. 

[Hxj]

Thought I would update the Derby points position.  Hull wining three in a row and Cardiff two out of has not helped. Derby wining one and drawing two in the last three hasn't really made much impact,

As regards Derby -

With 22 (gross) points from 19 games that gives them a generous season total with no deduction of 53 points.  That would see them survive in all but one of the last 10 seasons. 

With the 21 point deduction a net score of 32 that would see them relegated in all of the last 10 seasons.

However Reading in 21st place are currently on target for an ungenerous 49 points, with Cardiff & Hull on 18 points on target for an ungenerous 44 points.  This simply demonstrates the nearly impossible position Derby are in. Based on current performance Derby need 43 points from 27 games, in line with a 10th place performance.

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Hxj

[ExiledAjax]

1 minute ago, Hxj said:

Thought I would update the Derby points position.  Hull wining three in a row and Cardiff two out of has not helped Derby wining one and drawing two in the last three hasn't really made much impact,

As regards Derby -

With 22 (gross) points from 19 games that gives them a generous season total with no deduction of 53 points.  That would see them survive in all but one of the last 10 seasons. 

With the 21 point deduction a net score of 32 that would see them relegated in all of the last 10 seasons.

However Reading in 21st place are currently on target for an ungenerous 49 points, with Cardiff & Hull on 18 points on target for an ungenerous 44 points.  This simply demonstrates the nearly impossible position Derby are in. Based on current performance Derby need 43 points from 27 games, in line with a 10th place performance.

Plus they have an already small squad, that may well get yet smaller in January. This is unlikely to increase their chances of winning points.

[cider11]

Derby still burning through cash, a £1.2mil loss in the last 8 weeks - Derby County lose £1.2m in first eight weeks in administration - BBC Sport

[Hxj]

51 minutes ago, cider11 said:

Derby still burning through cash, a £1.2mil loss in the last 8 weeks

It would help if journalists could understand what they are writing about!

Whilst the headline figure is a loss of £1.2 million the stated income includes a loan of £1.25 million from MSD.  The actual cash deficit for the football club was nearer £2.5 million which annualises to over £16 million a year.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Had a quick look at it all, have to say their running costs are remarkably low for a Championship club- granted it's a snapshot but the whole club only costs in cash terms up to £20m or not much more than in a year to run??

No sign of rent, let alone arguably a fair value one on Pride Park either...hopefully the EFL are taking note.

Sevco 5112- to 30th June 2018

Cost of Sales was £52,576,437 and seems to have been a further £23,232,060 in administrative expenses.

Now after admittedly 2 months of a 12 month reporting period...

The latest picture

Lots of devil in the detail- is this just club wages or inclusive of all up to and including PAYE, NI etc?

Remember too that this is cash it seems- e.g. MSD loan wouldn't count towards revenue for FFP and non cash items e.g. Depreciation and Amortisation of Player Registrations seem not to appear in this.

The running costs of the other companies appear to be non-existent though pretty much- unless they are all included in the above. Of course they are transferring revenue from the other companies to the club but the business expenses- hope the EFL are examining all of this forensically and have more detailed information to hand.

[Hxj]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

running costs are remarkably low for a Championship club

This is just cash in and cash out.  So if PAYE/NIC or any other cost hasn't actually been paid for it won't be shown.

[Davefevs]

Mr P….and without the MSD loan they would’ve lost £2.5m in that 8 week period.  As you say FFP is a different matter.

[Hxj]

A bad weekend of results for Derby - Reading (21st), Cardiff (20th) and Hull (19th) all won.

With 22 (gross) points from 20 games Derby have a generous season total with no deduction of 51 points.  That would see them survive in all but one of the last 10 seasons. 

With the 21 point deduction that's net points of 30 that would see them relegated in all of the last 10 seasons.

However Reading in 21st place are currently on target for an ungenerous 53 points (net of the six points), with Cardiff & Hull on 21 points on target for an ungenerous 48 points.  This simply demonstrates the nearly impossible position Derby are in. Based on current performance Derby need 47 points from 26 games, in line with a 3rd place performance.

They really need to win next Saturday to drag another club into the mix.

[PHILINFRANCE]

30 minutes ago, Hxj said:

A bad weekend of results for Derby - Reading (21st), Cardiff (20th) and Hull (19th) all won.

With 22 (gross) points from 20 games Derby have a generous season total with no deduction of 51 points.  That would see them survive in all but one of the last 10 seasons. 

With the 21 point deduction that's net points of 30 that would see them relegated in all of the last 10 seasons.

However Reading in 21st place are currently on target for an ungenerous 53 points (net of the six points), with Cardiff & Hull on 21 points on target for an ungenerous 48 points.  This simply demonstrates the nearly impossible position Derby are in. Based on current performance Derby need 47 points from 26 games, in line with a 3rd place performance.

They really need to win next Saturday to drag another club into the mix.

Tonight’s result will not have helped and, hopefully, the late winner will have disillusioned them and made them less competitive for Saturday.

Was it against Derby that Semenyo got his harsh red card?

If it was, perhaps he will play and score to get his revenge.

Edited November 29, 2021 by PHILINFRANCE

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Hxj said:

A bad weekend of results for Derby - Reading (21st), Cardiff (20th) and Hull (19th) all won.

With 22 (gross) points from 20 games Derby have a generous season total with no deduction of 51 points.  That would see them survive in all but one of the last 10 seasons. 

With the 21 point deduction that's net points of 30 that would see them relegated in all of the last 10 seasons.

However Reading in 21st place are currently on target for an ungenerous 53 points (net of the six points), with Cardiff & Hull on 21 points on target for an ungenerous 48 points.  This simply demonstrates the nearly impossible position Derby are in. Based on current performance Derby need 47 points from 26 games, in line with a 3rd place performance.

They really need to win next Saturday to drag another club into the mix.

I’m confused.  I thought we were only outside of bottom three because of points deductions.  And now you tell me Derby have picked us less points than us regardless of the EFL.

As have Barnsley, Hull, Peterborough and Cardiff.

Well I’ll be jiggered!

[Davefevs]

Honest from Rooney.

Derby manager Wayne Rooney told BBC Radio Derby:

"We started very well even before we scored, on the front foot.

"We scored the goal and we dropped back too quickly, didn't get the press right like we worked on.

"I said to the lads at half-time the warning signs are there, we had to wake up, we had to be better. We were giving the ball away too easily.

"It's a tough one to take but I think we got what we deserved."

[Hxj]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I’m confused.  I thought we were only outside of bottom three because of points deductions.

Shhh - don't let the truth get in the way!

[Davefevs]

Things just got very serious if this article is anywhere near accurate:

Wycombe and Middlesbrough’s claims total £50m!!

Good article too.

[zippycar]

As the article alludes, if it was a normal business, it would have no value and so why pay money for an asset that has negative value.

A football stadium has a very specific use and cannot be easliy or commercially used for other activities, which also makes me wonder why someone would build a stadium on the Fruit Market, but of course that is a totally different topic!

[ExiledAjax]

12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Things just got very serious if this article is anywhere near accurate:

Wycombe and Middlesbrough’s claims total £50m!!

Good article too.

Interesting. You'd think the best that they can hope for is some sort of payment plan with HMRC. You know, pay £5m per year for 6 years or something. HMRC should absolutely not start writing off tax debt.

[The Bard]

8 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Interesting. You'd think the best that they can hope for is some sort of payment plan with HMRC. You know, pay £5m per year for 6 years or something. HMRC should absolutely not start writing off tax debt.

100%

[Hxj]

Derby County could be liquidated is old news on here.

In order for Derby County to exit the Administration debts need to be paid in full.  Failing that the Administrators need to propose a Corporate Voluntary Arrangement (CVA) (which results in writing off of debt), which needs to be agreed by 75% of unsecured creditors, one £1 debt equals 1 vote.

HMRC's published position is that they will oppose any CVA where any unsecured creditor is treated more favourably than any other unsecured creditor.  Football creditors are unsecured creditors and the local pie supplier is not.  So if the CVA proposes that a football creditor is paid in full and the local pie supplier receives 25% (in both cases to meet the EFL requirements), HMRC should vote against.

The rub here is that HMRC have enough votes, 27.2 million, out of the total of 83,.4 million, to block any CVA.

If a CVA cannot be agreed then the only possible exit is by liquidation.

A further charge was registered by MSD at the end of November against the long lease training ground.  That effectively stops the property being realised to fund payments to unsecured creditors.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Hxj

[Davefevs]

30 minutes ago, Hxj said:

A further charge was registered by MSD at the end of November against the long lease training ground.  That effectively stops the property being realised to fund payments to unsecured creditors.

Does your final sentence mean MSD put a charge on the training ground to stop Derby deciding who to pay and not to pay, I.e. protecting themselves and becoming a secured creditor?

[Hxj]

33 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

protecting themselves and becoming a secured creditor?

It simplifies their rights, particularly if (for instance) they have lent further funds to the Football Club, or if the original charge (across the Stadium Group and Football Group) is repaid or otherwise dealt with, or entities (other than the football club are liquidated.

It also ensures that MSD are are at the front of the queue.

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Hxj

[CodeRed]

3 hours ago, Hxj said:

Derby County could be liquidated is old news on here.

In order for Derby County to exit the Administration debts need to be paid in full.  Failing that the Administrators need to propose a Corporate Voluntary Arrangement (CVA) (which results in writing off of debt), which needs to be agreed by 75% of unsecured creditors, one £1 debt equals 1 vote.

HMRC's published position is that they will oppose any CVA where any unsecured creditor is treated more favourably than any other unsecured creditor.  Football creditors are unsecured creditors and the local pie supplier is not.  So if the CVA proposes that a football creditor is paid in full and the local pie supplier receives 25% (in both cases to meet the EFL requirements), HMRC should vote against.

The rub here is that HMRC have enough votes, 27.2 million, out of the total of 83,.4 million, to block any CVA.

If a CVA cannot be agreed then the only possible exit is by liquidation.

A further charge was registered by MSD at the end of November against the long lease training ground.  That effectively stops the property being realised to fund payments to unsecured creditors.

 

 

Well, according to Wayne Rooney there's no chance of liquidation !!

This club will exist. This club will grow," Derby boss Rooney said.

"I've seen the headlines in the papers the last couple of days and that's news to me. I don't think there's even an option of the club going into liquidation.

"I know some of the staff, when they read that, get worried, but from my point of view there's quite a few buyers who are very interested in the club.

"It's not through lack of people wanting to come in and take over the club, it's purely just getting it done, getting it over the line and there are details that need sorting out before that can happen."

Just a matter of details then,  nothing to see move on .

[Hxj]

30 minutes ago, CodeRed said:

Just a matter of details then

Absolutely, just minor ones like the £27.2 million owed to HMRC.

To be entirely fair to Rooney, what else can he say?

 

[Davefevs]

Rooney could offer to rip up his contract and work for free, that’s £3m saved between now and the end of the season, if he thinks that’ll smooth things along.

[cityexile]

I don’t wish that upon their fans, really...but just as a throwaway comment both Barnsley and Peterborough beat Derby. In the event Derby disappeared mid season they would both lose three points.