Derby County

[ExiledAjax]

Wonder what it was that happened in "the past 24 hours" to end Kirchner's interest?

Has famed insolvency practitioner Wayne Rooney had a say yet? 

[ExiledAjax]

Admins pinning it on a crap bid from Kirchner. Expected I guess.

[Davefevs]

My take is, they’ve missed the boat to conclude before the end if the year….so are now in a position where the window will be open whilst trying to do a deal.  That will mean a state of flux in valuations if players are sold.  Shifting sands!!

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, ExiledAjax said:

Admins pinning it on a crap bid from Kirchner. Expected I guess.

How convenient.

The other name(s) - Gadsby and Appleton.  Someone suggesting a joint bid???

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/former-derby-county-ownership-duo-6373669

[Waconda]

Not going to end up with Mike Ashley are they ?

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Not going to end up with Mike Ashley are they ?

Who do the biggest mugs?

Derby County fans or Sports Direct

Edited December 24, 2021 by Davefevs

[ExiledAjax]

8 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Not going to end up with Mike Ashley are they ?

To play devil's advocate, and to be fair to Ashley, whilst he may have hacked off the fans, renamed the stadium, and generally been an arse...he did run Newcastle in a financially prudent way. Boring, unambitious, dull maybe, but not profligate or crooked (to my knowledge). They were in a decent financial position when he left. A far cry from Morris' practice style. Ashley could be the kind of steady the ship kind of owner Derby need?

[Waconda]

18 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

To play devil's advocate, and to be fair to Ashley, whilst he may have hacked off the fans, renamed the stadium, and generally been an arse...he did run Newcastle in a financially prudent way. Boring, unambitious, dull maybe, but not profligate or crooked (to my knowledge). They were in a decent financial position when he left. A far cry from Morris' practice style. Ashley could be the kind of steady the ship kind of owner Derby need?

Yep, he would run it as a sustainable business.

 

[chinapig]

37 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

To play devil's advocate, and to be fair to Ashley, whilst he may have hacked off the fans, renamed the stadium, and generally been an arse...he did run Newcastle in a financially prudent way. Boring, unambitious, dull maybe, but not profligate or crooked (to my knowledge). They were in a decent financial position when he left. A far cry from Morris' practice style. Ashley could be the kind of steady the ship kind of owner Derby need?

Only if he poaches Ashton from Ipswich surely?

[Sweeneys Penalties]

4 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

To play devil's advocate, and to be fair to Ashley, whilst he may have hacked off the fans, renamed the stadium, and generally been an arse...he did run Newcastle in a financially prudent way. Boring, unambitious, dull maybe, but not profligate or crooked (to my knowledge). They were in a decent financial position when he left. A far cry from Morris' practice style. Ashley could be the kind of steady the ship kind of owner Derby need?

and a mere 45 minute drive from Sports Direct HQ to Pride Park

[Bristol Rob]

Just now, Sweeneys Penalties said:

and a mere 45 minute drive from Sports Direct HQ to Pride Park

That's awful. Every home game, garenteed to miss at least one half.

#DeliberatelyMissingThePoint

[Clevedon Red]

Great tweet from Kieran.

[Port Said Red]

 

27 minutes ago, Sweeneys Penalties said:

and a mere 45 minute drive from Sports Direct HQ to Pride Park

One of the most depressing places I ever had to visit in a work capacity. An awful, depressing environment, filled with depressed people. There was more security presence and checks than the House of Lords offices I had visited the week before.

[ExiledAjax]

29 minutes ago, Clevedon Red said:

Great tweet from Kieran.

Have I missed something? Suspect Kirchner is no saint but what has he done to deserve such biting comment from Mr. Maguire?

[ExiledAjax]

49 minutes ago, Sweeneys Penalties said:

and a mere 45 minute drive from Sports Direct HQ to Pride Park

The East Midlands really is the best part of England isn't it.

[Davefevs]

18 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Have I missed something? Suspect Kirchner is no saint but what has he done to deserve such biting comment from Mr. Maguire?

Beat me to it.  Over the past 6-8 weeks, Derby fans have seen him as their saviour, despite history telling us that bidders come and go…and now everyone is getting salty about it!!!  I’m sure there’s two sides to it, but it seems very churlish.

Ah well, think we might see the term “expunge” being used in the new year!

[ExiledAjax]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Beat me to it.  Over the past 6-8 weeks, Derby fans have seen him as their saviour, despite history telling us that bidders come and go…and now everyone is getting salty about it!!!  I’m sure there’s two sides to it, but it seems very churlish.

Ah well, think we might see the term “expunge” being used in the new year!

Kirchner's been outbid, and by a fairly modest amount. To be outbid by 7 figures means he's been unable to raise, or doesn't want to commit, an extra £1-9,999,999m. Not a huge amount when you're talking bids in the £50m+ bracket, and frankly embarrassing when you've spent the past two months telling anyone with a Twitter account how serious you are about buying your (newly) beloved Derby County FC and tweeting shite like this as though you're already the owner. He's been sent packing and is trying to save face.

 

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, ExiledAjax said:

Kirchner's been outbid, and by a fairly modest amount. To be outbid by 7 figures means he's been unable to raise, or doesn't want to commit, an extra £1-9,999,999m. Not a huge amount when you're talking bids in the £50m+ bracket, and frankly embarrassing when you've spent the past two months telling anyone with a Twitter account how serious you are about buying your (newly) beloved Derby County FC and tweeting shite like this as though you're already the owner. He's been sent packing and is trying to save face.

 

Fair enough….is it really £50m….seem £100m quoted, or is it £50m plus whatever the stadium costs?

[ExiledAjax]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Fair enough….is it really £50m….seem £100m quoted, or is it £50m plus whatever the stadium costs?

I dunno, I plucked a number from a dodgy memory. If it's £100m then being unable to get another £5m is even worse.

[Davefevs]

Just now, ExiledAjax said:

I dunno, I plucked a number from a dodgy memory. If it's £100m then being unable to get another £5m is even worse.

Yeah I get that, ta.

Could it partly be that deal not concluded by Xmas, means the valuation starts to look too high as assets might be sold in January?

[ExiledAjax]

Just now, Davefevs said:

Yeah I get that, ta.

Could it partly be that deal not concluded by Xmas, means the valuation starts to look too high as assets might be sold in January?

Seems Maguire just thinks he's a time waster.

Just now, Davefevs said:

Could it partly be that deal not concluded by Xmas, means the valuation starts to look too high as assets might be sold in January?

Sure, that;s why I said it could be that CK doesn't fancy it but he's still covering himself up and courting the fans with those sanctimonious messages.

[Son of Fred]

1 hour ago, Port Said Red said:

There was more security presence and checks than the House of Lords offices I had visited the week before.

Pop in for a siesta,,Port Red??.....

[Port Said Red]

3 minutes ago, Son of Fred said:

Pop in for a siesta,,Port Red??.....

The offices are a different proposition, they are the guys who actually do the work.

[Hxj]

15 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

The East Midlands really is the best part of England isn't it.

Absolutely! 

[pongo88]

22 hours ago, VT05763 said:

Surely this was their last/best hope, unless there is some "mystery" buyer hiding in the wings.

Sounds like a "fire sale" and liquidation doesn't it ?

It’s all falling into place. Wael buys Derby once the sale of the Memorial Stadium has gone through and Mike Ashley buys Rovers. 

[Lanterne Rouge]

Just having a quick scan of their forum and they seem to think they know who the successful bidder will now be.

They have serious concerns that this person/people only use one agent - one beginning with W.

[BetterRedthanBlue]

6 hours ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Just having a quick scan of their forum and they seem to think they know who the successful bidder will now be.

They have serious concerns that this person/people only use one agent - one beginning with W.

Don't know why they should be concerned with that I mean it's Derby County who wouldn't want to play for them?

Valverde, Laporte, Aouar, Stones, McKenna all signed with the agent being with W they'll be in the Derby county lineup next season!

[Hxj]

Get your Ponzi scheme here ... www.buydcfc.com!

Get your Multi-Level Marketing scheme here www.buydcfc.com!

Invest in the future of your heritage club's exclusive NFTs available in a fan owned club here www.buydcfc.com!

 

[Lanterne Rouge]

Reading on their forum that HMRC will only accept a long term repayment arrangement (more than two years) if 35% of the debt is paid at the start.

Any of you tax bods know if that is indeed the case?

[Davefevs]

48 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Reading on their forum that HMRC will only accept a long term repayment arrangement (more than two years) if 35% of the debt is paid at the start.

Any of you tax bods know if that is indeed the case?

From what I’ve read on here, payment plans are accepted.

[Lanterne Rouge]

12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

From what I’ve read on here, payment plans are accepted.

But if the 35% thing is a condition that`s £8-10m they`ll need to find up front and quickly.

[Hxj]

10 hours ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

HMRC will only accept a long term repayment arrangement (more than two years) if 35% of the debt is paid at the start.

For a smallish PAYE business like Derby County it will all depend upon the facts.  There are no hard and fast rules other than HMRC want the money.

For any payment plan of this size they will demand detailed cash flows, draft accounts and a host of other details.  HMRC will also want to know why the money wasn't paid previously (there was a winding up order in January 2020) and how it all fits in with the Administration.

As HMRC are third in line for cash after the Administrators and MSD there is absolutely no reason why they should waive their preferential status.  They could just say "pay us before you pay the remaining unsecured creditors (including football creditors)." Which could drop another 15 point penalty onto Derby if the EFL rules on Football Creditors are breached.

[Slippin cider]

Winning at home against WBA after an absolute howler from Sam Johnstone ….

[Jerseybean]

28 minutes ago, Slippin cider said:

Winning at home against WBA after an absolute howler from Sam Johnstone ….

Won 1-0 with just one shot on target and in the 95th minute Ryan Allsop makes a superb save to deny Kyle Bartley a last-minute leveller!

[Wrongagain]

2 minutes ago, Jerseybean said:

Won 1-0 with just one shot on target and in the 95th minute Ryan Allsop makes a superb save to deny Kyle Bartley a last-minute leveller!

Another farce from LINNINGTON, disagreed with linos a few times and seemingly intent on helping WBA - win only for WBA to throw it away!

[Roymand 1]

What a poor performance from West Brom seeing they could have gone second in table 

 

[Slippin cider]

Detest WRDC 

[Lanterne Rouge]

25 minutes ago, TomF said:

Sky Sports absolute Walking themselves into a frenzy over a 1-0 win.   No doubt if they go down they’ll be the first L1 side to feature 35 times on TV next season 

I know, it`s nauseating. `This proud club from this proud city` about five times.

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, TomF said:

if

If?

When. Absolutely it's when.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Piece in today's Times- refers to levelling up and football clubs- example provided is Derby County!?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/football-club-survival-should-be-a-levelling-up-goal-fans-tell-the-pm-rzrtwxhfd

Behind a paywall but I wonder how many of these Derby fans expressed misgivings when Mel 'had the EFL on strings'. I don't wish them bust but they need to suffer the consequences of their actions too- ideally that would constitute a firesale, an EFL business plan and of course relegation this season.

Quote

Frayne’s consultancy, Public First, conducted two focus groups this month for The Times in Derby with fans of Derby County. The club was one of the 12 founder members of the Football League but is now in administration and at risk of liquidation.

The East Midlands city has two constituencies, one an ultra-marginal seat gained by the Conservatives in 2019; the other held by Labour’s Dame Margaret Beckett since 1983, but with a diminished majority at the last election.

The participants in the focus groups saw the survival of their club as a vital component of the civic pride that Johnson wants to sit at the core of levelling up. “It’s 100 per cent integral to the city,” one participant, James, said.

Quote

Few of the 12 participants knew much about levelling up. One, Phil, believed it was about rebalancing the north against the south, a characterisation that would annoy some southern Conservatives. Once the concept was explained to them, several believed that the prospect of Derby County folding was a levelling-up question. “It shouldn’t have been allowed to get this far in the first place,” Dave said.

Levelling up, to the focus group participants, seemed to be mostly a question of pride in their local area. “Yes, [Derby] does want levelling up, and the money should be spent on improving the city centre,” Phil said.

Last month a review chaired by the Conservative MP Tracey Crouch called for an independent regulator to oversee a tougher fit and proper persons test for potential new owners of football clubs.

Almost nobody in the groups had heard of Crouch’s review, but there was broad backing for its aims once they were explained. “If things had been dealt with differently [at Derby County], we wouldn’t be in the whole situation,” Hannah said.

Sounds convenient- bit like clutching onto a passing lifeboat, converts to the cause. very Johnny Come Lately.

Sceptical about some of their points- they only seem to be committed because the gambling went wrong, the fact that almost nobody in the group had heard of the Crouch review at starting point.

"Dealt with differently" can also mean different things- some follow up questions on what they meant or thought they meant would have also been good. Perhaps they thought that the EFL should not have launched investigations into the stadium sale, which in turn led onto the amortisation issue and not challenged them on this point- perhaps this is what they meant by dealt with differently- that's why follow-up questions would be good.

Granted this is only 12 people. I do have some sympathy with the message about football clubs and pride in the area- they all have good Community Trusts as well, but I dunno some aspects of these answers seem a bit superficial or simple on face value- especially the bits about not having heard of the Crouch Review but then on explanation saying that it'd have solved Derby's issues.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Hxj]

An update on the Derby points position at the beginning of 2022, and a 2:2 draw at Reading.

As regards Derby -

With 32 (gross) points from 25 games, which would put them in 14th place. that gives them a generous season total with no deduction of 59 points.  That would see them survive in all of the last 10 seasons. 

With the 21 point deduction a net score of 38 that would see them relegated in all of the last 10 seasons, that is after 10 points in the last 4 games,

Reading, in 21st place (after a six point deduction), are on target for a gross points score of 56 points, with a net of 50 points.

However Cardiff and Hull in 19th and 20th place are currently on target for an ungenerous 44 points.  This simply demonstrates the nearly impossible position Derby are in.

Based on the current performances Derby need 33 points from 21 games, which is the same performance as Huddersfield in sixth have achieved so far.

So after a good fortnight on the pitch the position is still dire.

Off the pitch the 'imminent' announcement of the preferred bidder as detailed by the Administrators is still to happen. My understanding is that all the bidders end up with the football club failing to meet the requirement to pay unsecured non-football creditors 25% of their debt immediately (or 35% in three years) therefore Derby will suffer a 15 point deduction next year.

Oh and the Transfer Window is open, I understand that at the very least Buchanan and Lawrence will be sold.

[Davefevs]

Not sure how long this position will last!

[Port Said Red]

What is Cardiff's position regarding FFP, I can't remember them being mentioned.

[chinapig]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Not sure how long this position will last!

What happened to the "imminent" announcement of a preferred bidder I wonder?

[Kodjias Wrist]

51 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

What is Cardiff's position regarding FFP, I can't remember them being mentioned.

I imagine not great going off comments from their chairmen a few weeks back regarding the transfer window. He alluded to not having money to spend. I was under the impression that this is their last season of parachute payments too?

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Port Said Red said:

What is Cardiff's position regarding FFP, I can't remember them being mentioned.

They’ve just finished their 2 seasons of PPs, they only got 2 seasons as they went up and down.

Their 2 seasons reported (2018/19 and 2019/20) look okay and they looked to be tightening their belts (which could give their owner Vincent Tan nasty nipple rash ) and  making sensible signings in terms of realising their position.

So I doubt they will have issues.

[cider11]

Mike Ashley preparing a 50m bid according to sky sports - https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11696/12511258/mike-ashley-preparing-50m-takeover-bid-to-buy-derby-county?fbclid=IwAR1YmC1brudLVdxBB_dmdtYMYEGlOagwz82OkQBQnpgCrGRh93ebQx7ZfsU

[ExiledAjax]

28 minutes ago, cider11 said:

Mike Ashley preparing a 50m bid according to sky sports - https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11696/12511258/mike-ashley-preparing-50m-takeover-bid-to-buy-derby-county?fbclid=IwAR1YmC1brudLVdxBB_dmdtYMYEGlOagwz82OkQBQnpgCrGRh93ebQx7ZfsU

"Former Newcastle owner Mike Ashley is preparing a formal £50m offer to buy Derby County. Ashley has been in advanced talks with Derby's administrators in the last 48 hours - his bid would be the largest received so far by Derby's administrators, Quantuma."

If 50m is the biggest bid so far then no one so far has been offering to stump up much in the way of coverage for stuff like Wycombe/Boro's claims. Kirchner really was all fart and no brown stuff wasn't he.

[Hxj]

48 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

If 50m is the biggest bid so far

Allegedly beats the other bid by £20 million, which was better than Kirchner's.

It still won't be enough to guarantee that Derby won't get at least a 15 point penalty next season.  If the £50 million includes Pride Park then Unsecured Creditors (including football creditors) could get nothing.  If Pride Park is in addition it is close.

The latter would mean Ashley paying £70 million.

 

 

[ExiledAjax]

11 minutes ago, Hxj said:

Allegedly beats the other bid by £20 million, which was better than Kirchner's.

It still won't be enough to guarantee that Derby won't get at least a 15 point penalty next season.  If the £50 million includes Pride Park then Unsecured Creditors (including football creditors) could get nothing.  If Pride Park is in addition it is close.

The latter would mean Ashley paying £70 million.

 

 

My reading of the Sky report was that the £50m was for the Club only. It suggested that if successful there, then Ashley would approach Morris/MSD about buying the stadium separately. 

[Loosey Boy]

2 hours ago, cider11 said:

Mike Ashley preparing a 50m bid according to sky sports - https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11696/12511258/mike-ashley-preparing-50m-takeover-bid-to-buy-derby-county?fbclid=IwAR1YmC1brudLVdxBB_dmdtYMYEGlOagwz82OkQBQnpgCrGRh93ebQx7ZfsU

Good luck to them if this happens!

[Hxj]

34 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

It suggested that if successful there, then Ashley would approach Morris/MSD about buying the stadium separately. 

Trouble is Administrations don't really work like that.  MSD are entitled to the first £20 odd million in respect of the football club, and there is no guarantee that Ashley and Morris/MSD can go on and agree a deal on Pride Park, which I believe the annual rental is about £1.1 million a year on a long lease for restricted use.  I'd be happier paying that rent than paying out for the stadium, and I bet Ashley would as well!

Edited January 7, 2022 by Hxj

[maxjak]

Poor Derby......it was bad enough to get a points deduction, but it's now getting worse ............  nobody deserves Mike Ashley?          

[Davefevs]

50 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

Why ? He maintained a financially viable club . He is not an asset stripper . 

I agree.  Don’t like the bloke, but he actually managed the ownership of Newcastle very prudently.

[ExiledAjax]

Quite, as I said the last time he was linked, he may be an arse, but he's a responsible and prudent arse.

[Mr Popodopolous]

@Hxj

Surely football creditors are not up for discussion? Paid in full or if needs be central awards diverted to pay these. Unsure if failure to meet these obligations can impact upon the Golden Share.

Rent on Pride Park, I know a £1.1m annual  rent was 'agreed' but surely it should for FFP if nothing else reflect market value? £3.5-4m per season feels fair.

Lastly turning down bids for players- one wonders how well that represents the creditors interests here.

PS. Hopefully the Middlesbrough and Wycombe claims will get a fair hearing through the EFL processes.

[Hxj]

9 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Surely football creditors are not up for discussion?

This is a fundamental question.  Under UK insolvency law the order that creditors are paid is set out in law, simply put in this order:

Secured Creditors - from the assets they have security against

Preferential Creditors - (generally) limited amounts of pay and related pension contributions

2nd Preferential Creditors - HMRC in respect of taxes collected on behalf of others (generally) PAYE, Employees NIC and VAT.

Unsecured Creditors - everyone else

So for Insolvency Act purposes no one can be a 'Football Creditor', they usually fall as unsecured creditors.

The EFL then comes along and says, our membership terms state that 'Football Creditors' have to be paid in full, before all other unsecured creditors.  But that is just a private agreement, not the law.  HMRC object on 'Public policy Grounds', in effect you can't alter the law to the detriment of someone (in this case an unsecured creditor) by saying that you will.  This has never been tested properly in the Courts.  I have to say that HMRC's position is one that I completely agree with.

The position does potentially impact on Derby's share in the EFL and therefore the right to play in the EFL.

9 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Rent on Pride Park, I know a £1.1m annual  rent was 'agreed'

We know that there is lease on Pride Park, which the football club is party to.  If the club adheres to the terms of the lease, and MSD decide not to enforce the rights they hold under the charge, then as long as the club adhere to the terms of the lease there is nothing that the landlord can do.  This is why I don't believe the 'buy the club from Administration then negotiate to buy the ground' story.  If the debt is repaid in the administration then the charge will be removed and Morris, through his companies, will own Pride Park with no debt.

If the tenant and the landlord are not connected parties there is nothing in the EFL rules to enforce a 'commercial price' on any agreement. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Hxj

[Hxj]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

he actually managed the ownership of Newcastle very prudently

Trouble is managing Newcastle very prudently with £176m turnover in 2019 and £53m operating profit is a lot easier than managing Derby's financial position.

I suspect that the locals will tolerate 'prudence' far less than Newcastle fans did.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Hxj

[Kid in the Riot]

11 hours ago, billywedlock said:

Why ? He maintained a financially viable club . He is not an asset stripper . 

Problem is he "maintains" clubs by not investing in infrastructure. Lean times for Derby in the coming years if he's in charge.

The only hope they should have is that ultimately he'll want to sell the club in a decade at significant profit, and that will mean having to return them to Championship minimum, if not Premier League. 

[maxjak]

11 hours ago, billywedlock said:

Why ? He maintained a financially viable club . He is not an asset stripper . 

Have you ever had a conversation with a Newcastle Utd supporter?..............They have an interesting viewpoint.    Although   having now gone from one questionable individual to a whole country of shady characters, who knows where they'll end up?

[Leveller]

2 hours ago, Hxj said:

This is a fundamental question.  Under UK insolvency law the order that creditors are paid is set out in law, simply put in this order:

Secured Creditors - from the assets they have security against

Preferential Creditors - (generally) limited amounts of pay and related pension contributions

2nd Preferential Creditors - HMRC in respect of taxes collected on behalf of others (generally) PAYE, Employees NIC and VAT.

Unsecured Creditors - everyone else

So for Insolvency Act purposes no one can be a 'Football Creditor', they usually fall as unsecured creditors.

The EFL then comes along and says, our membership terms state that 'Football Creditors' have to be paid in full, before all other unsecured creditors.  But that is just a private agreement, not the law.  HMRC object on 'Public policy Grounds', in effect you can't alter the law to the detriment of someone (in this case an unsecured creditor) by saying that you will.  This has never been tested properly in the Courts.  I have to say that HMRC's position is one that I completely agree with.

The position does potentially impact on Derby's share in the EFL and therefore the right to play in the EFL.

We know that there is lease on Pride Park, which the football club is party to.  If the club adheres to the terms of the lease, and MSD decide not to enforce the rights they hold under the charge, then as long as the club adhere to the terms of the lease there is nothing that the landlord can do.  This is why I don't believe the 'buy the club from Administration then negotiate to buy the ground' story.  If the debt is repaid in the administration then the charge will be removed and Morris, through his companies, will own Pride Park with no debt.

If the tenant and the landlord are not connected parties there is nothing in the EFL rules to enforce a 'commercial price' on any agreement. 

So, in short, are we saying that the administrators have to effect the best sale available (financially) for the creditors, which would ignore the way this affects Middlesbrough and Wycombe as “football creditors”? But that doing this would possibly lead the EFL to saying “you broke our rules so you can’t play in our league”? If so, that would in reality prevent any buyer proceeding, no?

[Bristol Rob]

1 hour ago, maxjak said:

Have you ever had a conversation with a Newcastle Utd supporter?..............They have an interesting viewpoint.    Although   having now gone from one questionable individual to a whole country of shady characters, who knows where they'll end up?

Newcastle supporters are generally idiots.

They support a less successful Ipswich Town, but think they are special because they used to get about 2 thousand more fans when they were a lower league club than other sides in the same division.

[maxjak]

14 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Newcastle supporters are generally idiots.

They support a less successful Ipswich Town, but think they are special because they used to get about 2 thousand more fans when they were a lower league club than other sides in the same division.

What a considered and well thought out observation? 

[Hxj]

In short - yep.

[CyderInACan]

1 hour ago, Bristol Rob said:

Newcastle supporters are generally idiots.

They support a less successful Ipswich Town, but think they are special because they used to get about 2 thousand more fans when they were a lower league club than other sides in the same division.

Best fans in the world. Sleeping giant of a club. The Geordie nation will rise again 

[martnewts]

Nixon now reporting EFL want Middlesbrough and Wycombe claims to be included as football creditors totalling over £50 million that isn’t going to help finding a buyer or exiting admin

[chinapig]

7 hours ago, martnewts said:

Nixon now reporting EFL want Middlesbrough and Wycombe claims to be included as football creditors totalling over £50 million that isn’t going to help finding a buyer or exiting admin

I would find it surprising if the EFL supports the claims as I don't know of any basis in the P&S regs for them to do so. I'm prepared to be corrected on that but I would have thought it would have to be decided in the courts.

[Hxj]

9 hours ago, martnewts said:

Nixon now reporting EFL want Middlesbrough and Wycombe claims to be included as football creditors totalling over £50 million

Firstly I don't think that either club will win their case.  As has been said previously the claims appear to be more about disrupting the process, so currently they are achieving their aims.

I think some background is helpful.

If Middlesbrough or Wycombe take their cases forward it has to be through the dispute process in the EFL rules, any amount found due will therefore fall to be a 'Football Creditor'.

I think that what has happened is that the EFL have objected to the Administrators' proposals to leave the Middlesbrough and Wycombe claims to be dealt with by the new owners.  My issue with the proposal is what happens if Derby lose?  The club has to find £50 million to pay those bills, or be thrown out of the league.  I am sure that the EFL have similar concerns.  Low likelihood of this outcome, but it would cause massive damage to all clubs and the EFL.

So that leaves three options:

1. Agree that the amounts are due - the cost of exiting Administration goes up by £50 million - quick, simple but very expensive.
2. Compromise the claims and settle for a reduced sum - cheaper than 1, but it takes time.
3. Fight the claims - if you win fine, it will take a lot of time and cash.  Bear in mind that the loser can appeal.

Time is something Derby do not have.  They are burning cash at around a £1 million a month.  At some point MSD will stop lending and there will be nothing left to spend.

It may be possible to come up with an inventive solution but the clock is still ticking.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Hxj

[Mr Popodopolous]

I think Wycombe's claim has more merit than that of Middlesbrough as a) It is more recent, less remoteness and b) It seems easier to quantity. £6m directly can be sourced back to the loss in TV and Solidarity money as a team who finished 2 points from safety.

Whereas Middlesbrough's £45m numerically feels like wild speculation. If they had put in a claim for the semi final revenue foregone- Gates, corporate, TV etc well that is easier to quantify but falls far below £45m- closer to £4.5m? At an absolute push, could you also include playoff final and associated revenue? Semi final seems like the most realistic however.

Although Rooney the other day was talking renewals and mentioned a possible new signing so who knows anymore.

Remember too, Man Utd could loan Derby a player or 2 for free. Although unsure how that would fit with the EFL budget as part of their settlement etc.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

2 hours ago, Hxj said:

Firstly I don't think that either club will win their case.  As has been said previously the claims appear to be more about disrupting the process, so currently they are achieving their aims.

I think some background is helpful.

If Middlesbrough or Wycombe take their cases forward it has to be through the dispute process in the EFL rules, any amount found due will therefore fall to be a 'Football Creditor'.

I think that what has happened is that the EFL have objected to the Administrators' proposals to leave the Middlesbrough and Wycombe claims to be dealt with by the new owners.  My issue with the proposal is what happens if Derby lose?  The club has to find £50 million to pay those bills, or be thrown out of the league.  I am sure that the EFL have similar concerns.  Low likelihood of this outcome, but it would cause massive damage to all clubs and the EFL.

So that leaves three options:

1. Agree that the amounts are due - the cost of exiting Administration goes up by £50 million - quick, simple but very expensive.
2. Compromise the claims and settle for a reduced sum - cheaper than 1, but it takes time.
3. Fight the claims - if you win fine, it will take a lot of time and cash.  Bear in mind that the loser can appeal.

Time is something Derby do not have.  They are burning cash at around a £1 million a month.  At some point MSD will stop lending and there will be nothing left to spend.

It may be possible to come up with an inventive solution but the clock is still ticking.

Thanks, very informative as usual.

I'm still puzzled as to what EFL rules and regulations (P&S or otherwise) the claims are founded on. Any "debt" to Boro and Wycombe is hypothetical unless and until some competent authority (the EFL or the courts) says otherwise.

I also doubt the EFL would take a line that would increase the risk of Derby being liquidated, unless of course there really is a conspiracy against them.