Derby County

[ExiledAjax]

50 minutes ago, chinapig said:

No, you're right. Some people just seem to be taking it as a given.

I. Am. Shocked.

[Davefevs]

Great posts above.  The sooner people realise Morris took advantage of everything and everyone the better.  In many respects I want Derby to get liquidated so Morris is shown up for what he is.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, chinapig said:

Yet Kirchner is said to want the Council to buy the stadium and Rooney is talking about signing 30 players to cover the first team and U21s.

40 was a number I saw a while back, unless it's fallen since.

[ScottishRed]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

Have the council actually come and said they are willing to buy the stadium? I've seen a lot of chat from Derby parties that seem to suggest it's a done deal...but the latest reliable news (from 4 April) suggests that this isn't quite the case.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-60989047.amp

"Derby City Council's chief executive has played down suggestions it could buy Derby County's stadium...In a statement released to the Local Democracy Reporting Service, Mr Simpson said the council has been working with "Team Derby" - made up of business, civic and political leaders in the city - to try and help the Rams survive despite its "extremely challenging financial position"...

"Our preference is for a buyer to purchase the club and stadium outright."

 

 

I suppose it depends to an extent on the amount asked for the ground but I pretty sure there would be uproar in Derby if this were to happen, particularly in the current state public sector finances are in.

Yes ok, one club city, but far from all council tax payers are WRDC fans or even football fans full stop.

Way to many hurdles to overcome and money is running out, I see CK pulling out pretty sharpish.

Administrators have gone for the only game in town with their fingers firmly crossed behind their backs.

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, ScottishRed said:

I suppose it depends to an extent on the amount asked for the ground but I pretty sure there would be uproar in Derby if this were to happen, particularly in the current state public sector finances are in.

£20m, £22m I have seen mooted. Template could be the Plymouth deal in 2010- seen a suggestion of 5% yield ie £1-1.1m and that is commercial but the Plymouth deal was 8-8.5% and when resold it was some multiple of the rent which was slightly above the amount the council purchased for- could work commercially if on true commercial terms, enhanced to reflect the risk with public money.

4 hours ago, ScottishRed said:

Yes ok, one club city, but far from all council tax payers are WRDC fans or even football fans full stop.

Agreed although "majority rules" etc might be another take. Wonder if they might do some kind of local referendum on the matter?

[Derby_Ram]

Head of DCC was up in Preston and met the EFL for around 3 hours today. CK dialled in on Zoom. Although nothing official is announced it strongly feels like there is am agreement between DCC/CK in place. CK is also in Derby tomorrow for a day of meetings with various parties including MPs.

I'm still highly dubious that CK will follow through on completing a deal but I'm cautiously optimistic that the stadium stumbling block is being removed by DCC; albeit in a less than satisfactory way. I'm concerned about what the HMRC will say when it comes down to it - all the noises from local media is thay they're onboard with the 'plan' - but given that's from Quantuma briefings it makes me suspect the opposite!

Though beggars can't be choosers I was always in the MA camp. However CKs twitter Q+As have been remarkably refreshing and if he does complete I think it'll be an interesting journey. Odds are he won't complete....but it really takes a strange individual to do all the things he has done/is doing.

[downendcity]

8 hours ago, ScottishRed said:

I suppose it depends to an extent on the amount asked for the ground but I pretty sure there would be uproar in Derby if this were to happen, particularly in the current state public sector finances are in.

Yes ok, one club city, but far from all council tax payers are WRDC fans or even football fans full stop.

If I were a Derby resident I would be none too happy if my hard earned council tax ( paid out of my net personal income -  net after income tax has been deducted and paid)  were to be used to pay £20m to the man who oversaw the evasion/non-payment of £25m of  tax payments. 

It’s a sort of ironic hypocrisy.

[chinapig]

11 hours ago, Derby_Ram said:

Head of DCC was up in Preston and met the EFL for around 3 hours today. CK dialled in on Zoom. Although nothing official is announced it strongly feels like there is am agreement between DCC/CK in place. CK is also in Derby tomorrow for a day of meetings with various parties including MPs.

I'm still highly dubious that CK will follow through on completing a deal but I'm cautiously optimistic that the stadium stumbling block is being removed by DCC; albeit in a less than satisfactory way. I'm concerned about what the HMRC will say when it comes down to it - all the noises from local media is thay they're onboard with the 'plan' - but given that's from Quantuma briefings it makes me suspect the opposite!

Though beggars can't be choosers I was always in the MA camp. However CKs twitter Q+As have been remarkably refreshing and if he does complete I think it'll be an interesting journey. Odds are he won't complete....but it really takes a strange individual to do all the things he has done/is doing.

How do Derby fans feel about Morris, the man who put them in this position, benefiting from any sale of the ground to DCC? Or is he going to use the proceeds to pay the taxes he thought were optional?

I have been shocked by the relative lack of vitriol he gets from the fans. He doesn't even seem to be top of the hate list, that position being reserved for the EFL for daring to apply its rules. Apparently rules are for little clubs.

[Sir Geoff]

If a Tory Council buy Pride Park for £20m and give the money to MM and not HMRC then there should, imo, be a public outcry.  I would hope that some of the respected (non Tory) Newspapers in this country run with the story.

[Eddie Hitler]

19 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

If a Tory Council buy Pride Park for £20m and give the money to MM and not HMRC then there should, imo, be a public outcry.  I would hope that some of the respected (non Tory) Newspapers in this country run with the story.

 

Yes. Though without the political slant.

As I've said I think it perfectly reasonable that councils buy sports grounds in order to save them for those parts of the city that follows that team, as long as it is at a fair value and a fair rent is charged, or everything just disappears under new build houses and there is nothing left to do.

But giving it to Morris would be wrong.

[PHILINFRANCE]

19 hours ago, billywedlock said:

Morris is why a solution has not been found . 

Club out of money in a few weeks with zero assets . Liquidation is very real . 

Derby fans can blame everyone they want but there is only one multi millionaire that has got them in this mess and has not paid for his own errors and unscrupulous actions . 

Better Ashley buys the ashes , builds a new ground and they start again . DCFC  mk 2 founded 2022

 

With all due respect to and empathy with Derby's fans, I think this would be my preferred outcome.

Derby would still exist, but in another form - think Rangers or Wimbledon - but, more importantly, the main cause of the problem, Mel Morris, would be left with the white elephant that is Pride Park Stadium, and still in hock to MSD.

[Derby_Ram]

1 hour ago, chinapig said:

How do Derby fans feel about Morris, the man who put them in this position, benefiting from any sale of the ground to DCC? Or is he going to use the proceeds to pay the taxes he thought were optional?

I have been shocked by the relative lack of vitriol he gets from the fans. He doesn't even seem to be top of the hate list, that position being reserved for the EFL for daring to apply its rules. Apparently rules are for little clubs.

I guess this is where we differ in opinions and the view in the stadium on match days is different from a lot of what you'll see on social media and in fans forums.

Don't get me wrong there's still plenty of chants 'F the EFL' chants - but you'll find them after an iffy decision and ironically as opposed to being a real point of ire.

I've said it before and to me it still holds true - MM has no presence online. Every other party does. When you have a focal point who you know will see what blame/abuse/constructive discussion is written that's what unsurprisingly comes to the fore. MM has vanished. If he appeared online or heaven forbid at the ground you would see something very different.

 

edit: and to how do we feel about him benefitting from any sale? Everyone I've spoken to detests it. I think you'll know from my posts on here that I feel the same. But it probably also won't shock you that every Derby fan I've spoken to would rather that outcome if it helped facilitate a new owner and us starting next year in League One - even more so if it's on zero point  

Edited April 13, 2022 by Derby_Ram

[downendcity]

24 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

Yes. Though without the political slant.

As I've said I think it perfectly reasonable that councils buy sports grounds in order to save them for those parts of the city that follows that team, as long as it is at a fair value and a fair rent is charged, or everything just disappears under new build houses and there is nothing left to do.

But giving it to Morris would be wrong.

So that’s £80m then?! 

 

[Lanterne Rouge]

Surely if DCC buy Pride Park at, say, £20m then there have to be further EFL consequences over the £80m `sale` in the past?

[downendcity]

Just now, Lanterne Rouge said:

Surely if DCC buy Pride Park at, say, £20m then there have to be further EFL consequences over the £80m `sale` in the past?

Doubt it, because DCFC/MM will argue that this is a fire sale and therefore not a normal market transaction and this explains the disparity between valuation and sale price ( however see my comment below marked #). 

The thing is that you are right to question the validity of the original ffp “sale” valuation. At the time I mentioned that as no open market existed for sale of football club stadia, there were no market comparable available, as there would be with residential property sales, and that this left the door wide open to the valuations being manipulated to be just the figure the owner needed to avoid ffp sanctions. We now have the closest we are likely to see to an open market for the sale of Pride Park, as the prospective owner of DCFC needs to buy the stadium and MM owns the only stadium that is realistically available and suitable.  

You would think that this makes it a sellers market ( # bear in mind that it is not the owner of Pride Park (MM) that is in administration and on the verge of liquidation, so he does not have to sell) Despite this, if the best price MM can achieve is the rumoured £20m then it certainly calls into question the original valuation - and the valuations of all the stadiums that were sold to related 3rd party companies ( including Villa Park!).

This all relates back to the EFL being caught with their pants down regarding the sale of stadia to related third parties. When they realised the loophole that they themselves had created  their embarrassment resulted in the clubs running rings around them - especially so as far as the valuations were concerned. 

 

 

 

 

[Derby_Ram]

1 hour ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Surely if DCC buy Pride Park at, say, £20m then there have to be further EFL consequences over the £80m `sale` in the past?

Am sure the value of the stadium has been done to death on more than one occasion in here .

However as a summary Derby valued it at £81.1m using a DRC model - how much it'd cost to build a replacement for the stadium. When the charge about the stadium was reviewed there was agreement by both sides that DRC was the right approach to take. The commission then determined the valuation should fall between £77.4m - £89.5m with a midpoint of £83.5m. Forgetting the rights and wrongs of clubs being able to sell their own grounds for the purpose of FFP Derby did not overvalue Pride Park here. Conceivably they could have put a few extra £m on it and it would have passed the case brought about it.

Over the last few years one area the EFL did get it wrong re Derby was the appointment of their expert on stadium valuation. His evidence was heavily criticised - in particular using new stadium with a mix of terracing and seats, and with inferior facilities as his comparison to Pride Park to reach his valuation - and he was just not experienced enough to do this (guessing the amount of experience one can get on stadium valuations has massively increased the last few years!!).

As for what the stadium is worth now - should it be £81.1m? No. If you haven't got a football team to play in it what are you going use it for? In 2018 when the case was judged land value was put between £3.2m - £4.1m so a relatively small amount in the scheme of things. If MM (MSD) sell the ground now then the valuation switches to what a buyer would pay not a DRC method, and for a one club city and a stadium with limited demand for other events its a much lower value.

Besides everyone else's understandable scorn and anger there should be no consequences to the club of the stadium being sold for significantly less than the £81.1m it was put on the books at.

The loophole should never of existed in the first place.

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, Derby_Ram said:

Am sure the value of the stadium has been done to death on more than one occasion in here .

However as a summary Derby valued it at £81.1m using a DRC model - how much it'd cost to build a replacement for the stadium. When the charge about the stadium was reviewed there was agreement by both sides that DRC was the right approach to take. The commission then determined the valuation should fall between £77.4m - £89.5m with a midpoint of £83.5m. Forgetting the rights and wrongs of clubs being able to sell their own grounds for the purpose of FFP Derby did not overvalue Pride Park here. Conceivably they could have put a few extra £m on it and it would have passed the case brought about it.

Over the last few years one area the EFL did get it wrong re Derby was the appointment of their expert on stadium valuation. His evidence was heavily criticised - in particular using new stadium with a mix of terracing and seats, and with inferior facilities as his comparison to Pride Park to reach his valuation - and he was just not experienced enough to do this (guessing the amount of experience one can get on stadium valuations has massively increased the last few years!!).

As for what the stadium is worth now - should it be £81.1m? No. If you haven't got a football team to play in it what are you going use it for? In 2018 when the case was judged land value was put between £3.2m - £4.1m so a relatively small amount in the scheme of things. If MM (MSD) sell the ground now then the valuation switches to what a buyer would pay not a DRC method, and for a one club city and a stadium with limited demand for other events its a much lower value.

Besides everyone else's understandable scorn and anger there should be no consequences to the club of the stadium being sold for significantly less than the £81.1m it was put on the books at.

The loophole should never of existed in the first place.

I accept that is accurate but how much of the £81.1m did the football club receive for the "sale" of it's stadium?

Did Derby fans object at the time or did they think it a clever wheeze?

[PHILINFRANCE]

11 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I accept that is accurate but how much of the £81.1m did the football club receive for the "sale" of it's stadium?

Did Derby fans object at the time or did they think it a clever wheeze?

I have seen this question raised before, but can’t recall ever seeing a credible answer, save for the oft-mentioned suggestion it was simply a paper transaction for FFP purposes.

Which, of course, begs the question, if true, as to why MM is the owner.

[REDOXO]

2 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

I have seen this question raised before, but can’t recall ever seeing a credible answer, save for the oft-mentioned suggestion it was simply a paper transaction for FFP purposes.

Which, of course, begs the question, if true, as to why MM is the owner.

I guess at least part of the answer is money to Derby via Morris predicated on the collateral of the stadium, which if I am correct is 20-25 m worth of personal borrowing by Morris....which was flushed down the toilet by the FC. A long way from the stadium valuation of 81M isn't it!

I guess Morris is paying the interest to the finance company or is on the hook at some finite date for the borrowed money plus interest

[Hxj]

29 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I accept that is accurate but how much of the £81.1m did the football club receive for the "sale" of it's stadium?

Absolutely every penny.  It then of course paid the funds received up through the ownership chain to Morris repaying some of the money lent down through the ownership chain.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Hxj

[chinapig]

31 minutes ago, Hxj said:

Absolutely every penny.  It then of course paid the funds received up through the ownership chain to Morris repaying some of the money lent down through the ownership chain.

So not a penny then?

[chinapig]

37 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

I guess at least part of the answer is money to Derby via Morris predicated on the collateral of the stadium, which if I am correct is 20-25 m worth of personal borrowing by Morris....which was flushed down the toilet by the FC. A long way from the stadium valuation of 81M isn't it!

I guess Morris is paying the interest to the finance company or is on the hook at some finite date for the borrowed money plus interest

So we may find in due course that DCC pays off the loan straight to the lender. Let's face it if it was paid to Morris who knows what he would do with it?

[REDOXO]

1 hour ago, chinapig said:

So we may find in due course that DCC pays off the loan straight to the lender. Let's face it if it was paid to Morris who knows what he would do with it?

I guess in theory the club takes on the loan debt and pays it off and Morris hands the ground back. But we don’t know if Morris wants more than the loans secured on the stadium. 
 

However the new owner will be taking on a huge amount of debt that will take years to overcome. The idea of a cram down is out of the question as that will ensure Derby are playing non league next season is my understanding so I don’t see a way out unless the purchaser is super wealthy and doesn’t care about money

[Hxj]

2 hours ago, chinapig said:

So not a penny then?

From a legal standpoint - every penny.

From a reality standpoint it was wasted before it was received.

[Hxj]

3 hours ago, REDOXO said:

I guess Morris is paying the interest to the finance company or is on the hook at some finite date for the borrowed money plus interest

There is no real evidence that he actually is, no one has actually seen the full paperwork.

If there was any hint of a default by the stadium owning company or group company then I am sure that MSD would now put the company in Administration.

[REDOXO]

12 minutes ago, Hxj said:

There is no real evidence that he actually is, no one has actually seen the full paperwork.

If there was any hint of a default by the stadium owning company or group company then I am sure that MSD would now put the company in Administration.

All of this is utterly nuts. It’s at times/comments like this you do feel for Quantuma and particularly The EFL. 
 

I guess the Corporate Veil at Derby County was pierced the day they went into administration….But Mel Morris and his corporations not so much. One of the reasons he did what he did I suppose. But still, how on earth have no crimes been committed? (I guess we don’t know they haven’t yet)

[Mr Popodopolous]

12 hours ago, Hxj said:

From a legal standpoint - every penny.

From a reality standpoint it was wasted before it was received.

The accounts for Derby to June 2018 do show £81.1m in the cash flow but the accounts for Gellaw Newco 202 in 2019 and 2020 seem to show a lot of cash due.

Never could square that circle.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The accounts for Derby to June 2018 do show £81.1m in the cash flow but the accounts for Gellaw Newco 202 in 2019 and 2020 seem to show a lot of cash due.

Never could square that circle.

Makes you wonder doesn’t it?

[Mr Popodopolous]

17 hours ago, Derby_Ram said:

Am sure the value of the stadium has been done to death on more than one occasion in here .

However as a summary Derby valued it at £81.1m using a DRC model - how much it'd cost to build a replacement for the stadium. When the charge about the stadium was reviewed there was agreement by both sides that DRC was the right approach to take. The commission then determined the valuation should fall between £77.4m - £89.5m with a midpoint of £83.5m. Forgetting the rights and wrongs of clubs being able to sell their own grounds for the purpose of FFP Derby did not overvalue Pride Park here. Conceivably they could have put a few extra £m on it and it would have passed the case brought about it.

Over the last few years one area the EFL did get it wrong re Derby was the appointment of their expert on stadium valuation. His evidence was heavily criticised - in particular using new stadium with a mix of terracing and seats, and with inferior facilities as his comparison to Pride Park to reach his valuation - and he was just not experienced enough to do this (guessing the amount of experience one can get on stadium valuations has massively increased the last few years!!).

As for what the stadium is worth now - should it be £81.1m? No. If you haven't got a football team to play in it what are you going use it for? In 2018 when the case was judged land value was put between £3.2m - £4.1m so a relatively small amount in the scheme of things. If MM (MSD) sell the ground now then the valuation switches to what a buyer would pay not a DRC method, and for a one club city and a stadium with limited demand for other events its a much lower value.

Besides everyone else's understandable scorn and anger there should be no consequences to the club of the stadium being sold for significantly less than the £81.1m it was put on the books at.

The loophole should never of existed in the first place.

In which case, insist on a paper rent equal to the Fair Rent as per the valuer who did so well for Derby for FFP purposes. Plus the EFL insist that stadium stays out of the club FFP group ie reconsolidation any time soon is a no.

The bit of the Agreed Decision that would support this is the part pertaining to no change to Reporting Entity for P&S purposes without EFL consent in writing.

Was £4.16m per year. To be clear the club would pay say £1-1.6m per year to the Council in actual cash,but the EFL FFP numbers would reflect the 2018 consolidated Fair Rent in paper terms.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Waconda]

 

Derby will start next season in League One with a new owner and no points deduction.

Let it go !!!

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Waconda said:

 

Derby will start next season in League One with a new owner and no points deduction.

Let it go !!!

If you think other clubs will let it go then you are mistaken especially if there is a major tax reduction- can see significant pressure by other clubs on the EFL to put them under a strict business plan and yes if one bit of the Insolvency is out of place then -15 is a must.

The Agreed Decision I would suggest the EFL can use to tighten those strings.

I'd sooner Derby went bust than the EFL's Insolvency and out of administration requirements were compromised in all honesty. If things get complex and Kirchner doesn't like the requirements, tough.

It's not a personal dig at Derby, more a longstanding view that the EFL's requirements are more important than any one club. No club has a right, or an automatic right to League membership.

There is reference to a cross-class cram down. That would 100% bring about a further deduction.

I'm being a bit deliberately inflammatory but the point is the EFL need to apply without fear or favour in full force. The EFL have a lot of leverage at their disposal, for the integrity of the game it is imperative that they don't waver.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

Mr P, from Athletic. Reference to CCCD.

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Mr P, from Athletic. Reference to CCCD.

 

 

Thanks Dave- will just read it now. Just saw headline snippets.

[Waconda]

27 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

If you think other clubs will let it go then you are mistaken especially if there is a major tax reduction- can see significant pressure by other clubs on the EFL to put them under a strict business plan and yes if one bit of the Insolvency is out of place then -15 is a must.

The Agreed Decision I would suggest the EFL can use to tighten those strings.

I'd sooner Derby went bust than the EFL's Insolvency and out of administration requirements were compromised in all honesty. If things get complex and Kirchner doesn't like the requirements, tough.

It's not a personal dig at Derby, more a longstanding view that the EFL's requirements are more important than any one club. No club has a right, or an automatic right to League membership.

There is reference to a cross-class cram down. That would 100% bring about a further deduction.

I'm being a bit deliberately inflammatory but the point is the EFL need to apply without fear or favour in full force. The EFL have a lot of leverage at their disposal, for the integrity of the game it is imperative that they don't waver.

Think you are going to be surprised and disappointed.

[Mr Popodopolous]

The rent bit is interesting because there is devil in the detail there.

1. The company who valued the ground initially said £4.16m per season/year. Presumably this is for the consolidator.
2. However the club got £1.1m per year owing to an arrangement to have it for 100 days use only.
3. The consolidated might/perhaps should show something different though. The 1st Independent Disciplinary Commission referenced rental payments from Club DCFC and Stadia DCFC. Of course none of the companies, holding companies or subsidaries have released accounts for 3 years now!
4. Usually with a company who purchases a stadium it will show rental paid- if you look at both Birmingham clubs stadium companies- that is the company who purchased the ground but is separately owned- and Sheffield 3 Limited ie the one who purchased Hillsborough- plus of course Reading in year 1 when they initially 'sold' to Renhe it will show the receivable but certainly the 1st 3. Gellaw Newco 202 shows nothing of the kind in either 2019 or 2020. Something for the EFL to continue to press on with.

5 minutes ago, Waconda said:

Think you are going to be surprised and disappointed.

Nixon has already said that there is a lot of anger among other EFL clubs about the tax thing.

The EFL is a members club- why would other clubs permit the EFL to give them some kind of sweetheart deal. I am sure Mr. Couhig is still willing and able to pursue his claim and should be encouraged to do so. He's on Twitter so it would be easy to encourage him to do so if one so desired.

Have you read the Agreed Decision? The EFL have judgements very much on their side.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Wondered when this would come up again.

Last time they wanted to impose a cross-class cramdown this was deemed unacceptable by the EFL. Has something changed? If not, the EFL should take the same stance as before...you can do it but you can't play in the EFL, if the circumstances are the same.

At the very least, this approach should significantly increase the chances of a -15 next season as it is not in keeping with CVAs although a CVA is no longer a must in terms of EFL Insolvency requirements.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

25 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Wondered when this would come up again.

Last time they wanted to impose a cross-class cramdown this was deemed unacceptable by the EFL. Has something changed? If not, the EFL should take the same stance as before...you can do it but you can't play in the EFL, if the circumstances are the same.

At the very least, this approach should significantly increase the chances of a -15 next season as it is not in keeping with CVAs although a CVA is no longer a must in terms of EFL Insolvency requirements.

I guess the EFL can say “fill your boots”….Derby County the business can continue….but not in the EFL.

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

All of which takes time . When May 8 th comes , who is going fund the club ( even with few players to pay ) ? Will Kirchener start paying out ? He has got some serious due diligence to cover yet . Plus it relies on the council buying the stadium . Have they agreed a price yet ?  How deep are those pockets too ?  Is this M Knighton mk 2 ? 
 

CCCD in court , that’s going to take time to resolve . Months , more so if it goes to appeal . HMRC will want to argue this one long and hard as it will create precedence . They will not be rolling over . 

Kirchener is not a multi billionaire , able to take some financial risks .  
 

There are  still no published accounts . EFL will need those before agreeing next steps if they are going to exit administration , as those numbers impact further breaches of conduct . The stadium sale and leaseback will need covering too . If council do not pay 80 m , and it would be strange if they did , many questions still open in the accounts EFL use to establish breach . 
 

Other EFL members agitated too and will be looking over the detail . 

This looks far from over or concluded , at least in the short term . 
 

 

Largely agree with your post. Yep a CCCD should take a very long time I'd have thought- there is also the small matter of the Wycombe claim, CCCD proved a stumbling block in January with Middlesbrough and Wycombe- the first of those two claims might have been resolved but no word on the 2nd.

Quote

There are  still no published accounts . EFL will need those before agreeing next steps if they are going to exit administration , as those numbers impact further breaches of conduct . The stadium sale and leaseback will need covering too . If council do not pay 80 m , and it would be strange if they did , many questions still open in the accounts EFL use to establish breach . 

Agreed most certainly, although the consensus from the Derby end is that they can't be affected by the stadium sale and leaseback- I think one scenario is that it'd be the case that the council pay the amount equal to MSD security and the stadium goes to them- that'd be in the £20-25m bracket.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Anyway I've said it since Day One, Derby going bust? Nah don't see it.

What is important for the integrity of the game though is that the EFL don't give them any shortcuts or special treatment- favours etc.

[Hxj]

How to make a burke of yourself in one easy step.  Write nonsense without doing your research.

The Derby County Football Club Limited do not owe Morris a single bean.  They do owe Sevco 5112 Ltd £8.2 million and they do owe Club DCFC Limited £4.1 million.  Those are all the connected party debts I can see.  By way of contrast HMRC are owed £26.6 million.

In a CVA 75% of creditors have to vote for it.  HMRC have more than 25% of the total debt of the company so can simply say no.

As I, and others, have already said, a Cross Class Cram Down is not simply a question of coming up with a plan.  It takes time and lots of cash, neither of which the company has.  Other cases have taken almost a year from starting the process to getting the court sanction.  As far as I am aware none of the cases so far sanctioned involve stripping a preferential creditor of their rights.

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Hxj

[ExiledAjax]

1 minute ago, Hxj said:

How to make a burke of yourself in one easy step.  Write nonsense without doing your research.

The Derby County Football Club Limited do not owe Morris a single bean.  They do owe Sevco 5112 Ltd £8.2 million and they do owe Club DCFC Limited £4.1 million.  Those are all the connected party debts I can see.  By way of contrast HMRC are owed £26.6 million.

In a CVA 75% of creditors have to vote for it.  HMRC have more than 25% of the total debt of the company so can simply say no.

As I, and others, have already said, a Cross Class Cram Down is not simply a question of coming up with a plan.  It takes time and lots of cash, neither of which the company has.  Other cases have taken almost a year from starting the process to getting the court sanction.  As far as I am aware none of the cases so far sanctioned involve stripping a preferential creditor of their rights/

 

Which means that even if the admin/CK/some magic money fairy can fund a CCCD, and can fund the continued administration, the time it will take to process a CCCD (or any other court proceeding) would mean starting next season in admin, which IIRC brings a further points deduction (-12 by default I think). So off you pop to League 2 for 2023/24. Even Kirchner isn't going to spunk 30m on a League 2 club. Ultimately if they string this out long enough they may end up out of the EFL anyway.

I'd probably be counseling to swallow your medicine, cough up a little more cash now, pay off your creditors, and give the club a small hope of survival.

[Hxj]

41 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

Or who pays the running costs after the last game of this season ( although with vastly reduced player costs ) 

I'm still led to believe that there will be no money on Monday 9 May, that is 25 days away.  The clubs biggest problem is that from that date onwards no real cash is received until August.  Thye have to pay the wages until July from existing cash resources.  I also understand that any central funds will be witheld until all Football Creditors are paid in full.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, Hxj said:

I'm still led to believe that there will be no money on Monday 9 May, that is 25 days away.  The clubs biggest problem is that from that date onwards no real cash is received until August.  Thye have to pay the wages until July from existing cash resources.  I also understand that any central funds will be witheld until all Football Creditors are paid in full.

There have been suggestions that season ticket revenue kicks in of course, and the central funds thing too absolutely- good point- although saw it suggested on their forum a few weeks back that these would be received at the end of the season.

[Hxj]

7 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

season ticket revenue kicks in

The cash may be received, but it creates an obligation in respect of putting matches on next season.  With potential personal liability, there is no prospect of Administrators doing anything other than putting that cash in a different account marked '2022/23 season'.

 

10 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

saw it suggested on their forum a few weeks back

I've seen alot suggested on their forum over the last few years, including Morris playing with EFL puppets 'on strings', purchasers lauded as 'saviours' who turn out to be fake, or publish fake pictures of their wealth, or who get arrested for tax fraud.  Not much evidence of fact finding journalism on there!

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Hxj said:

How to make a burke of yourself in one easy step.  Write nonsense without doing your research.

The Derby County Football Club Limited do not owe Morris a single bean.  They do owe Sevco 5112 Ltd £8.2 million and they do owe Club DCFC Limited £4.1 million.  Those are all the connected party debts I can see.  By way of contrast HMRC are owed £26.6 million.

In a CVA 75% of creditors have to vote for it.  HMRC have more than 25% of the total debt of the company so can simply say no.

As I, and others, have already said, a Cross Class Cram Down is not simply a question of coming up with a plan.  It takes time and lots of cash, neither of which the company has.  Other cases have taken almost a year from starting the process to getting the court sanction.  As far as I am aware none of the cases so far sanctioned involve stripping a preferential creditor of their rights.

 

Thanks, was hoping you’d challenge that…it didn’t sound right.

15 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

There have been suggestions that season ticket revenue kicks in of course, and the central funds thing too absolutely- good point- although saw it suggested on their forum a few weeks back that these would be received at the end of the season.

What season ticket revenue?

https://www.dcfc.co.uk/page/season-tickets

Not got any on sale!!!

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Thanks, was hoping you’d challenge that…it didn’t sound right.

What season ticket revenue?

https://www.dcfc.co.uk/page/season-tickets

Not got any on sale!!!

Tbh was going on snippets I read. In theory one or two on Twitter a little while ago suggested that they could put season tickets on sale under administration- how that'd work in practice however is very different probably!

[Bristol Rob]

4 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Tbh was going on snippets I read. In theory one or two on Twitter a little while ago suggested that they could put season tickets on sale under administration- how that'd work in practice however is very different probably!

Would guess any transactions would need to be in cash, as I can't imagine any credit card companies would want a Section 75 claim if they don't start or complete next season.

[Mr Popodopolous]

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/14043371

Looks like Kirchner has set up a new Holding Company although I thought he was reported to be in his 30s.

That aside, what of a) The remaining issues outstanding on the Embargo service, b) The unresolved (or is it resolved now) Wycombe issue. c)  Would this constitute insolvency and transfer to a Newco- how would this align to EFL regs? Control of the Golden Share reverts back to EFL when Insolvency kicks in IIRC.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Also read that Rooney wanted to sign Adebayo from Luton in Jan had a takeover gone through.

I'm sure he did but on the pitch it would have been an undoubted short term step down given the League position and secondly would that have been possible under the Business Plan to June 2022 agreed as part of the settlement?

Luton certainly wouldn't have sold mid-season either IMO.

[Mr Popodopolous]

As I thought, the budget agreed said no Loan Fee, Transfer Fee so how he signs Adebayo in Jan takeover or not that still applied.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/14043371

Looks like Kirchner has set up a new Holding Company although I thought he was reported to be in his 30s.

That aside, what of a) The remaining issues outstanding on the Embargo service, b) The unresolved (or is it resolved now) Wycombe issue. c)  Would this constitute insolvency and transfer to a Newco- how would this align to EFL regs? Control of the Golden Share reverts back to EFL when Insolvency kicks in IIRC.

I guess the setting up of a limited company can be done regardless of whether he does take over Derby.

Think the age was a input error by CH.

[Mr Popodopolous]

39 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I guess the setting up of a limited company can be done regardless of whether he does take over Derby.

Think the age was a input error by CH.

Agreed on both counts.

Yep, can set up a Limited company irrespective- I understand both Gabay and Alonso did (Rams Investment and Rams Sports Management in the case of Gabay and No Limits Sports in the case of Alonso).

The main priority is that the EFL continue to uphold everything for the wider good of the game.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Hxj]

So we have now passed the date by when a CVA can be started and finished by the end of the season, and the suggested end of the money.

If the end of the money is as suggested someone will have to fund the company to the tune of around £1.5 million a month to get Derby to the start of next season on 30 July.  Even if season tickets are sold, it is highly unlikely that the proceeds are available to fund the club before the ownership has changed.  So Kirchner, I guess, will need to start funding pretty soon.

 

[chinapig]

25 minutes ago, Hxj said:

So we have now passed the date by when a CVA can be started and finished by the end of the season, and the suggested end of the money.

If the end of the money is as suggested someone will have to fund the company to the tune of around £1.5 million a month to get Derby to the start of next season on 30 July.  Even if season tickets are sold, it is highly unlikely that the proceeds are available to fund the club before the ownership has changed.  So Kirchner, I guess, will need to start funding pretty soon.

 

Kieran Maguire said again this morning that on the basis of his bid HMRC are going to have to compromise their position and that unsecured creditors are going to have to take "an absolute hammering".

Far from a done deal still.

[ScottishRed]

31 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Kieran Maguire said again this morning that on the basis of his bid HMRC are going to have to compromise their position and that unsecured creditors are going to have to take "an absolute hammering".

Far from a done deal still.

I simply cannot see HMRC compromising their position one jot. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Don't read the Derby forum so much these days but after his latest rant, I do wonder if Gee Screamer !! had some kinda sense of humour bypass, or context one. Perhaps even some combo of the two!

Fans have celebrated relegating an opposing club for some time so it's nothing new is it.

Secondly if you're Pearson, being the manager of a side who put Derby down at their own ground. Given his suspension, sacking, the other rumours such as drones, being undermined by players with a direct line to Mel Morris well you would, wouldn't you.

I could also add NP is from Nottingham (dunno if he supports either side), managed Leicester and played for Sheffield Wednesday although these might be irrelevant considerations of course.

[Sir Geoff]

On 14/04/2022 at 16:51, Mr Popodopolous said:

Tbh was going on snippets I read. In theory one or two on Twitter a little while ago suggested that they could put season tickets on sale under administration- how that'd work in practice however is very different probably!

Who in their right mind would give a company in administration circa £400 cash? Surely not even the most died in the wool fan would be that foolish.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Oh and another quick search played for Middlesbrough too towards the end of his career. Under a certain Mr Gibson.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Sir Geoff said:

Who in their right mind would give a company in administration circa £400 cash? Surely not even the most died in the wool fan would be that foolish.

Certainly none on sale currently.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, Sir Geoff said:

Who in their right mind would give a company in administration circa £400 cash? Surely not even the most died in the wool fan would be that foolish.

Depends if it's a thought of survival at all costs, not like a normal business emotionally speaking even though I totally get it.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Don't read the Derby forum so much these days but after his latest rant, I do wonder if Gee Screamer !! had some kinda sense of humour bypass, or context one. Perhaps even some combo of the two!

Fans have celebrated relegating an opposing club for some time so it's nothing new is it.

Secondly if you're Pearson, being the manager of a side who put Derby down at their own ground. Given his suspension, sacking, the other rumours such as drones, being undermined by players with a direct line to Mel Morris well you would, wouldn't you.

I could also add NP is from Nottingham (dunno if he supports either side), managed Leicester and played for Sheffield Wednesday although these might be irrelevant considerations of course.

I shouldn't bite tbh but it can be tricky at times.

My position, fwiw...

Derby will probably get relegated.

Derby won't go bust.

EFL need to uphold their rules as they represent 72 and not just one.

[Davefevs]

21 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I shouldn't bite tbh but it can be tricky at times.

My position, fwiw...

Derby will probably get relegated.

Derby won't go bust.

EFL need to uphold their rules as they represent 72 and not just one.

So, does that mean - Lg1 with minus 15….plus penalties for any future indiscretions?

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

So, does that mean - Lg1 with minus 15….plus penalties for any future indiscretions?

Yes. Provided the bid or structure of the deal doesn't satisfy the EFL then a -15 in what is likely to be League 1 next season is a must.

Plus a Business Plan as Kieran Maguire mentioned when they first went into administration- that acts as both a moral hazard and a punishment IMO- as well as a deterrence.

[chinapig]

31 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

So, does that mean - Lg1 with minus 15….plus penalties for any future indiscretions?

Maguire reckoned Kirchner is trying to persuade the EFL to deduct 15 points this season so he presumably accepts there will be a penalty. But Maguire reckons there is no chance of him getting what he wants.

[Lanterne Rouge]

10 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Maguire reckoned Kirchner is trying to persuade the EFL to deduct 15 points this season so he presumably accepts there will be a penalty. But Maguire reckons there is no chance of him getting what he wants.

Past the cut-off point though aren`t they? If they get away with it then it would be outrageous to say the least.

[ExiledAjax]

Ladies and gentlemen, it's been an honour. In indignation we have discovered our virtue and Derby County Football Club Ltd (in administration) will, if still in existence, play out next season in EFL League 1.

I shall be at Pride Park on Saturday, I shall order a beer, and I shall toast to @havanatopia in memoriam. He started this illustrious discussion in the hope of a just relegation last season. Bureaucracy and fate have conspired to delay it, but the punishment has been served. I hope he is basking in a heavenly warmth today. 

To all who have educated, entertained and informed this thread throughout this season. I thank you and salute you.

Edited April 18, 2022 by ExiledAjax

[1960maaan]

Pretty, init 

[Hxj]

On 25/05/2021 at 05:09, havanatopia said:

Are the Football League hoping this will quietly disappear?

Will Wycombe have to call the legal team in?

Two weeks after the season has ended and the Pride Park club, via its online newspaper mouthpiece, is already arrogantly discussing the seasons new fixtures in the Championship.

Do they know more than the rest of us? have they paid someone off handsomely to ensure the club remain much more attractive to a buyer?

To complete the circle as far as we can Derby have been relegated as a result of the actions of Morris and Pearce, no one else is responsible.

The future of the club is still in serious doubt.  I hope they survive, but not sure what this season and starting next season with no squad and minus 15 points will do to Rooney and the remaining squad if tehy do.

Finally a big thank you to @havanatopia.

[chinapig]

10 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Ladies and gentlemen, it's been an honour. In indignation we have discovered our virtue and Derby County Football Club Ltd (in administration) will, if still in existence, play out next season in EFL League 1.

I shall be at Pride Park on Saturday, I shall order a beer, and I shall toast to @havanatopia in memoriam. He started this illustrious discussion in the hope of a just relegation last season. Bureaucracy and fate have conspired to delay it, but the punishment has been served. I hope he is basking in a heavenly warmth today. 

To all who have educated, entertained and informed this thread throughout this season. I thank you and salute you.

I'll add my thanks to those from whom I have learned so much about finance and property in particular. More fans should take note, these things are so important for the game as a whole.

Please respect the day of national mourning for Derby the media will now declare.

[22A]

On 25/05/2021 at 09:01, italian dave said:

From a purely selfish point of view I’d rather they had a big points deduction next season. 

Your wish was granted!