Derby County

[Bristol Rob]

If you have a few days to bother, worth going back to the original posts when Derby entered administration.

They were really quite deluded back then, believing it was a cunning ruse to escape a debt (or something), and having blamed everyone else, it finally sunk it that they are in trouble.

Their general outrage at the thought of Mike Ashley getting involved was a very fluid situation 

[Midred]

Will the offers for a league 1 club be lower now?

[chinapig]

1 minute ago, Midred said:

Will the offers for a league 1 club be lower now?

I'm sure Kirchner has already priced that in. As far as we know there are no other bids.

His may still fail if HMRC and the EFL aren't satisfied of course. This is far from over.

[Northern Red]

Rooney on Morris:

"Where the club's been left, it was a complete mess. I know Mel Morris is a big Derby fan, so I'm sure he's sat at home tonight disappointed.

"We are as we've done everything we can to try and not let this happen and worked extremely hard.

"So hopefully he doesn't have a good night's sleep tonight and that plays on his mind, because I think he needs to have a think about it."

[Midred]

3 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

Rooney on Morris:

"Where the club's been left, it was a complete mess. I know Mel Morris is a big Derby fan, so I'm sure he's sat at home tonight disappointed.

"We are as we've done everything we can to try and not let this happen and worked extremely hard.

"So hopefully he doesn't have a good night's sleep tonight and that plays on his mind, because I think he needs to have a think about it."

I presume he's already got his severance agreement (whatever that's worth?) In his lawyer's safe!

[ExiledAjax]

2 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

Rooney on Morris:

"Where the club's been left, it was a complete mess. I know Mel Morris is a big Derby fan, so I'm sure he's sat at home tonight disappointed.

"We are as we've done everything we can to try and not let this happen and worked extremely hard.

"So hopefully he doesn't have a good night's sleep tonight and that plays on his mind, because I think he needs to have a think about it."

Left out the best bit!

"We've earned enough points to stay in this division next season..."

I mean...have you though?

[Hxj]

 

Looks like a three year deal to meet 35% of unsecured creditors to avoid the -15 points, where HMRC fit in that is anyone's guess.

Now waiting for someone to create a legal stink in respect of HMRC.

And so far Kirchner has contributed the massive sum of £1 to his DCFC rescue fund.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Hxj

[Northern Red]

4 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Left out the best bit!

"We've earned enough points to stay in this division next season..."

I mean...have you though?

I assume he means that without the deduction they'd be safe, and to be fair he'd be correct. They'd have 52 points, Reading would be in 22nd with 41.

[East Londoner]

1 minute ago, Northern Red said:

I assume he means that without the deduction they'd be safe, and to be fair he'd be correct. They'd have 52 points, Reading would be in 22nd with 41.

Reading also lost 6 points don’t forget 

[daored]

2 hours ago, billywedlock said:

Zero sympathy , a great club ruined by the corrupt actions of Morris and Pearce. Yet the fans loved it at the time, thinking they were being cute. They were not, they were using the tax payers money to fund a (sadly legal) fraud. 

I hope fans, with a renewed sense of humility , can now hope to find a buyer who will deal with another points deduction, a squad of 7 youngsters, no ground as we speak, and the confinement of a controlled business plan to rebuild a once proud club. They will. 

Morris deserves a jail term but the weakness of our financial controls will mean that apart from sad Derby fans, every person in this country has paid a price for his fraud and he will retire to his hundreds of millions. 

Owners like Morris and the guy at bury should be banned from running companies when they’ve created such a shambles at football clubs. It’s too easy for this owners to walk away with no penalty 

[Northern Red]

2 minutes ago, East Londoner said:

Reading also lost 6 points don’t forget 

Of course, but I doubt he was talking about Reading.

[ExiledAjax]

23 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

I assume he means that without the deduction they'd be safe, and to be fair he'd be correct. They'd have 52 points, Reading would be in 22nd with 41.

Sure. And we've got enough points to be in the play offs if you decide that goals scored by our opponents after the 75th minute don't count.

Sorry, not having a go at you. I'm just a but fed up of the circle jerk over Rooney's performance. 

[Midred]

34 minutes ago, Hxj said:

 

Looks like a three year deal to meet 35% of unsecured creditors to avoid the -15 points, where HMRC fit in that is anyone's guess.

Now waiting for someone to create a legal stink in respect of HMRC.

And so far Kirchner has contributed the massive sum of £1 to his DCFC rescue fund.

A little more than Morris this last few months!

[sephjnr]

48 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

I assume he means that without the deduction they'd be safe, and to be fair he'd be correct. They'd have 52 points, Reading would be in 22nd with 41.

It's either a bonehead retort or a backhand on Morris. I'm reading the latter.

[downendcity]

2 hours ago, sephjnr said:

It's either a bonehead retort or a backhand on Morris. I'm reading the latter.

 

[Waconda]

[TonyTonyTony]

Never thought id be saying this about WR, but the way he has spoken since yesterday has been impressive. Honest, and clearly has the respect of his staff. They will struggle to come back up though - league 1 is extremely tough

[chinapig]

28 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Never thought id be saying this about WR, but the way he has spoken since yesterday has been impressive. Honest, and clearly has the respect of his staff. They will struggle to come back up though - league 1 is extremely tough

Kieran Maguire said he had talked to backroom staff at Derby who spoke very highly of the support Rooney gives them, in contrast to some others at the club and, of course, no longer at the club.

He has certainly enhanced his reputation.

[Northern Red]

Warnock made an interesting point on Sky last night, that, whilst Rooney deserves credit for the way he's conducted himself and has kept them battling hard all season, the pressure has been off him to a certain extent because the points deduction meant that avoiding the drop was always going to be very unlikely. Whereas next season, if the takeover goes through and depending on further sanctions, he will be expected to have them challenging to go back up. That'll be when his managerial credentials are more closely scrutinised, with an eye on him going on to bigger things.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Northern Red

[Hxj]

Well the super efficient solicitors acting for Kirchner have now corrected their errors in the documents filed for Kirchner’s company 9CK …

[Davefevs]

@Mr Popodopolousthis for you?

 

[ExiledAjax]

28 minutes ago, Hxj said:

Well the super efficient solicitors acting for Kirchner have now corrected their errors in the documents filed for Kirchner’s company 9CK …

Clients DOB wrong. Some Paralegal got a bollocking there didn't they.

[Show Me The Money!]

Apologies if this has been said on one of the other 119 pages of this topic but the saddest part of this whole saga is that I’d bet Derby get into the Prem before we do. If we ever do in my lifetime at least

[ScottishRed]

Full respect to Rooney, he has done a very decent job in very difficult circumstances.

I have a sneaky feeling that he may well leave soon unless matters off the pitch get resolved quickly, which looks highly unlikely.

There have been reports this morning that Burnley could be interested and if Everton go down Lampard won’t survive.

 

[Riaz]

Rooney has done terrific.

He had half a team in the week leading up to the season starting. Could only sign frees and loans.

And the real league table, without the deduction, he would have kept them up.

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, Riaz said:

Rooney has done terrific.

He had half a team in the week leading up to the season starting. Could only sign frees and loans.

And the real league table, without the deduction, he would have kept them up.

He has done well, but first half of the season he still had a decent squad with some high earners in it.

[Riaz]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

He has done well, but first half of the season he still had a decent squad with some high earners in it.

Did he have a better squad than us? Definitely not. Nowhere near.

And yet he got more points with all the issues thrown at him.

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, Riaz said:

Did he have a better squad than us? Definitely not. Nowhere near.

And yet he got more points with all the issues thrown at him.

I disagree.  We’d love to have had Curtis Davies, Tom Lawrence, Kristian Bielik, Max Bird, Nathan Byrne….they’d all walk into our starting eleven….plus the likes of Kazim-Richards, Knight, Jagielka (pre-transfer), Buchanan, Sibley, Ebosele, Joswiak (pre-transfer), Shinnie (pre-transfer) etc, aren’t bad either.

Yes, left in a shit position points wise, but a middle eight squad like ours imho.  Easy to think he’s been playing u18s all season…he hasn’t.  But he’s done a good job, I just don’t get the sympathy of the squad for a large part of the season.

[Davefevs]

 

[Hxj]

Interesting from Kirchner, talking about season tickets:

Chris Kirchner

@cskirchner

·

14h

This has to wait until the admins have done their bit… late June maybe? (This is a speculative guess, so please don’t hold me to it) If I get a more firm grasp of that I’ll let you know. Lot to do before that

 

So it's going to be a nervous summer break for DCFC.  Any players out of contract in at the end of June can start negotiations on 1 June.  Would you look for a new deal somewhere or stay and hope it all works out alright?

[Derby_Ram]

On 18/04/2022 at 09:36, Hxj said:

So Kirchner, I guess, will need to start funding pretty soon.

 

He's confirmed he's assuming funding duties from May 7th.

Now relegation confirmed he has confirmed business plan to EFL this Friday with steps of EFL approval, stadium sorted, creditor approval on waterfall, then takeover complete. 

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating but so far I'm cautiously optimistic with how he's been since being announced as PB.

 

We'll all know more by May 8th at the latest if things are going to plan.

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I disagree.  We’d love to have had Curtis Davies, Tom Lawrence, Kristian Bielik, Max Bird, Nathan Byrne….they’d all walk into our starting eleven….plus the likes of Kazim-Richards, Knight, Jagielka (pre-transfer), Buchanan, Sibley, Ebosele, Joswiak (pre-transfer), Shinnie (pre-transfer) etc, aren’t bad either.

Yes, left in a shit position points wise, but a middle eight squad like ours imho.  Easy to think he’s been playing u18s all season…he hasn’t.  But he’s done a good job, I just don’t get the sympathy of the squad for a large part of the season.

5 out the players you called out have come through the U16/18 set up - one can still play for them. Bielek only came back after a year out in Jan and Kazim has only been fit for half the league games including a 3 month spell on the injury table pre-Christmas. Saying that is like me saying Pearson had a better squad and ignored the long term injuries City have had.

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Derby_Ram said:

5 out the players you called out have come through the U16/18 set up - one can still play for them.

Yes, I know….but where they came from is irrelevant to what I’m discussing…I said I thought your squad is better than ours - especially first half of the season / til end of Jan.  My first post qualified that period of time.

Bielek only came back after a year out in Jan and Kazim has only been fit for half the league games including a 3 month spell on the injury table pre-Christmas. Saying that is like me saying Pearson had a better squad and ignored the long term injuries City have had.

whichever way you look at it, inc injuries or exc injuries, I think your squad was a bit better than ours.

Comments above.

If Derby put out this team v us and you ignore finances / points deduction etc

Roos

Byrne / Jagielka / Davies / Buchanan

Knight / Shinnie / Bird

Eboseke / CKR / Lawrence

Subs (from): Morrison, Joswiak, Stearman, Marshall, Sibley, Forsyth etc

might you argue that’s better than City?  I didn’t include Bielik.

All about opinions though, but I think that’s a tad stronger than us….not much, admittedly….but I don’t think it’s weak either.  Bottom end of middle-eight, just like us.

[ExiledAjax]

Anyone want a ticket for Saturday?

Unfortunately circumstances have meant that I will now have to toast Hav and the rest of you in front of a TV screen rather than the Pride Park faithful.

DM me if interested. 

Otherwise it's a museum piece now.

[Derby_Ram]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

All about opinions though, but I think that’s a tad stronger than us….not much, admittedly….but I don’t think it’s weak either.  Bottom end of middle-eight, just like us.

I think this is where we all see an opposition player do something once - in person or on a highlight - and think they're better than the rubbish our own lot turn out each week

I'd have much rather had your squad than ours!

If you'd have let us do a player swap CKR for Martin I think we could have scraped enough points all season. The difference between our squads (having seen less of City than most teams all year but knowing Martin/Weimann well) is you've got players who can stick the ball in the back of the net. We relied on Lawrence wonder strikes.

Seen a few posts from City fans with Roos as a decent keeper. I hope for your sakes he isn't someone you pilfer from us in the summer - that would be a scouting failure. Allsop on the other hand....

But to go back to the original point; the whole club could be knocked from top to bottom yet this season Rooney can be exempted from that - both for dragging the squad to what he did and as importantly galvanising the whole club/fanbase etc  (I didn't want him as a player or then as a manager). He's pleasantly shocked me. Next year though he will have a different pressure and as fans we're always a fickle bunch! But he worked wonders with the players throughout the season

[Davefevs]

21 minutes ago, Derby_Ram said:

I think this is where we all see an opposition player do something once - in person or on a highlight - and think they're better than the rubbish our own lot turn out each week

I'd have much rather had your squad than ours!

If you'd have let us do a player swap CKR for Martin I think we could have scraped enough points all season. The difference between our squads (having seen less of City than most teams all year but knowing Martin/Weimann well) is you've got players who can stick the ball in the back of the net. We relied on Lawrence wonder strikes.

Seen a few posts from City fans with Roos as a decent keeper. I hope for your sakes he isn't someone you pilfer from us in the summer - that would be a scouting failure. Allsop on the other hand....

But to go back to the original point; the whole club could be knocked from top to bottom yet this season Rooney can be exempted from that - both for dragging the squad to what he did and as importantly galvanising the whole club/fanbase etc  (I didn't want him as a player or then as a manager). He's pleasantly shocked me. Next year though he will have a different pressure and as fans we're always a fickle bunch! But he worked wonders with the players throughout the season

As I said I think he’s done a good job.

[Hxj]

2 hours ago, Derby_Ram said:

He's confirmed he's assuming funding duties from May 7th.

That's good to hear, and will be the real test.

[Mr Popodopolous]

It's kinda ancient history now but @Hxj probably knows a few things on it. May as well ask. 

The eventual 'Agreed Decision' showed that Derby indeed wanted to restate the accounts further, to add around £30m to the Profit on disposal ie subtracting £30m from the carrying value at time of disposal to boost the profit accordingly.

As we know Derby eventually accepted that it was unable to be included as a matter of compliance with accounting standards in the context of the EFL's regulations

What were the actual technical grounds that the EFL disallowed it on? That snippet was pretty vague and wooly all told. Don't get me wrong, right decision but clear reasoning?

Edited April 20, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

As for actual football matters.

21 hours ago, Derby_Ram said:

I think this is where we all see an opposition player do something once - in person or on a highlight - and think they're better than the rubbish our own lot turn out each week

I'd have much rather had your squad than ours!

If you'd have let us do a player swap CKR for Martin I think we could have scraped enough points all season. The difference between our squads (having seen less of City than most teams all year but knowing Martin/Weimann well) is you've got players who can stick the ball in the back of the net. We relied on Lawrence wonder strikes.

Seen a few posts from City fans with Roos as a decent keeper. I hope for your sakes he isn't someone you pilfer from us in the summer - that would be a scouting failure. Allsop on the other hand....

But to go back to the original point; the whole club could be knocked from top to bottom yet this season Rooney can be exempted from that - both for dragging the squad to what he did and as importantly galvanising the whole club/fanbase etc  (I didn't want him as a player or then as a manager). He's pleasantly shocked me. Next year though he will have a different pressure and as fans we're always a fickle bunch! But he worked wonders with the players throughout the season

Think Rooney has done quite well, he has certainly carried himself well and represented the club well all told.

Think the squads have some similarities but, one thing (and this is pre January and the mini firesale granted), Derby seem to have less medium term, niggling injuries than us. That's another part of the equation.

Okay our injuries are nothing like last season but...

1. Baker- Has missed the bulk of the season injured. Quite an important player, indeed wonder if we'll ever see him in a City shirt again.
2. Williams- He gives some bite in midfield or can do- he has missed quite a lot of the last two seasons injured.
3. Semenyo- Was out for about 3 months initially and then had another few weeks out. The end product is one thing but he gives us another dimension in our attacking play- when he's out they aren't any like for like in the squad.

Then there are players such as Tanner- undoubtedly still learning his trade but was quite promising for the first couple of months. He's been out for months but more importantly our only real viable option at RB, or at least who can slot between RB and RWB. Atkinson showed some real promise and then got a bout of Covid- same age as Atkinson, he is now starting to show some decent things again. I think James and King in particular- the latter has missed quite some time- and James less but still medium term, thank goodness Weimann has remained fit is is alI can say. Even now Williams is struggling to start two games in a week, granted we're being clever but for a player who started 70-80% of League games on average at Barnsley, Bolton, Wigan it's a huge downturn. James had a near ever-present record last season across two clubs, unlucky or what! King is older and was brought as more of a fringe option, I can accept. Although he has had two medium to long term injuries this season alone!

Just checked- King- he has had hamstring surgery twice in one season.

OTOH I am surprised that Martin has remained as fit for as long as he has. He is certainly over 30 and wasn't someone I had down as starting as many as he has done and remaining relatively effectively- still think he could be used a bit more sparingly but it's been a pleasant surprise his availability. I'd argue we have better strikers but and especially with the injuries being as they were combined with a smaller squad than prior seasons, we've had to patch up, make do and mend somewhat- Weimann at RWB at Blackburn for example sticks out! We've also played a very promising young player called Scott at RWB for a range of games, he's a bit more suited but all things being equal he's a midfielder.

Other example of a knock on effect of Tanner's absence, we've played a left back at both Right Back and in other games Wing Back- DaSilva. Tanner has been out for us since QPR at home at the end of December IIRC.

Forgot to add, Cundy at Centre back, he was also  out for 5-6 months. Whether he gets a new contract is a matter of debate but can ill-afford it when the squad is relatively thin.

Now Byrne, I have him down a) As a decent RB for a start b) In and around peak years, 29 isn't he- WhoScored says he's made 40 starts which is excellent.

Bielik I guess would be your equivalent of Williams- as in often injured but a good CM all the same, both a similar age although Williams now 25, Bielik 24.

Knight has played 35 Championship games for example- midfield is often the engine room of a side, I would suggest Derby have had more stability in CM than us this season.

Bird- another. 38 starts, 1 sub appearance.

Central defence- Davies 43/43 starts.

On the flipside, Shinnie was injured for a time- and then sold, aforementioned Bielik and Jagielka being pulled out did not help.

I also would suggest that Derby had a weaker squad than last season- or a thinner one anyway, even before the January mini firesale. That's credit to Rooney for getting more points with a thinner squad.

1. Wisdom- Gone
2. Clarke- Strong loanee, gone.
3. Waghorn- Gone
4. Marriott- Gone

Plus January loanees in Mengi, Edmundson, Roberts and Gregory. They in a way replaced players such as Evans, Holmes and Whittaker IIRC?

Talking of Wisdom cash permitting, and obviously his fitness will be shot by not being resigned by Derby, he'd be a useful addition for a Championship club on a free IMO.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Waconda]

20 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Comments above.

If Derby put out this team v us and you ignore finances / points deduction etc

Roos

Byrne / Jagielka / Davies / Buchanan

Knight / Shinnie / Bird

Eboseke / CKR / Lawrence

Subs (from): Morrison, Joswiak, Stearman, Marshall, Sibley, Forsyth etc

might you argue that’s better than City?  I didn’t include Bielik.

All about opinions though, but I think that’s a tad stronger than us….not much, admittedly….but I don’t think it’s weak either.  Bottom end of middle-eight, just like us.

Regardless of Derby we have a solid mid table Championship squad and have underperformed this season.

No "Nadine Dorries" style defence can hide that.

[Hxj]

40 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It's kinda ancient history now but @Hxj probably knows a few things on it. May as well ask. 

The eventual 'Agreed Decision' showed that Derby indeed wanted to restate the accounts further, to add around £30m to the Profit on disposal ie subtracting £30m from the carrying value at time of disposal to boost the profit accordingly.

The Agreed Decision is probably sensibly vague as after all it is an Agreed Decision not a litigated one.

My understanding is that DCFC choose to value the stadium in a certain way in the accounts, and as that method is entirely appropriate under the relevant accounting standards then it is fixed.

The fact that other treatments of other amounts were inappropriate under the relevant accounting standards and need to be changed does not give you the right to change other valid decisions because you no longer like them.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, Hxj said:

The Agreed Decision is probably sensibly vague as after all it is an Agreed Decision not a litigated one.

My understanding is that DCFC choose to value the stadium in a certain way in the accounts, and as that method is entirely appropriate under the relevant accounting standards then it is fixed.

The fact that other treatments of other amounts were inappropriate under the relevant accounting standards and need to be changed does not give you the right to change other valid decisions because you no longer like them.

Thanks for that. Trying to understand and summarise it in my mind.

1. Valuation method- Fair enough.
2. Revaluation Reserve credited to profit and loss to bolster profit on disposal- Non compliant with FRS 102?

I remember at the time, Kieran Maguire seemed to think it could be legit.

[Hxj]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Revaluation Reserve credited to profit and loss to bolster profit on disposal- Non compliant with FRS 102?

If they had made the adjustment on the transfer to FRS 102 then it would be compliant.  As they did not then they cannot now change their mind because they don't like the answer as it was was an acceptable accounting treatment.

Contrast with the 'amortisation' that was an unacceptable accounting policy and therefore has to be changed.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Hxj

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, Hxj said:

If they had made the adjustment on the transfer to FRS 102 then it would be compliant.  As they did not then they cannot now change their mind because they don't like the answer as it was was an acceptable accounting treatment.

Contract with the 'amortisation' that was an unacceptable accounting policy and therefore has to be changed.

Thanks- that does clear it up. Too late then basically...spotted too late, they would still highly likely have failed to 2021/22 in any event but that would have required some kinda in-season process and Business Plan from Summer 2021 if even possible.

It did seem like the EFL were minded not to accept it in any event, the extra Revaluation Reserve cash/profit.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[cityexile]

5 hours ago, Hxj said:

If they had made the adjustment on the transfer to FRS 102 then it would be compliant.  As they did not then they cannot now change their mind because they don't like the answer as it was was an acceptable accounting treatment.

Contrast with the 'amortisation' that was an unacceptable accounting policy and therefore has to be changed.

I know this is all technical stuff that I must confess I do not entirely follow, but as an interested (but non accounting) follower it does seem there are two things that can get mixed up a little for those who are interested.:

-   Meeting the requirements of FFP. Sure it’s meant to ensure a level playing field, but it is where most of the games accounting wise seem to get played. ‘How can we treat this to stay within these rules’. Seems from the outside a bit of a arms race with clubs trying to come up with fancy new treatments that the EFL then try and close down:

-   Related, but different, does a club have the funds to pay its debts. You can play all the accounting ruses in the world, but there does come a time you will run out of money and simply cannot pay your bills.

Derby, for all the clever stuff on their stadium etc, still ran out of money. Clearly FFP is designed to reduce the chances of that happening, but it just seems to reinforce that you can  play all the games you like, but if your funding is not secure you will go bust. Can argue till the cows come home about some of their accounting treatments, but rather than a ruse to get round FFP, ultimately it meant they went bust.

Taking us, we could conceivably fall foul of FFP and take a penalty. For all SLs faults I do not believe for one minute he would actually allow us to go bust. This might be naive, but have a sneaky feeling when push comes to shove given all the COVID challenges, the EFL might be slightly more forgiving around FFP in the short term, IF they are convinced there is no real financial risk to the club going forward. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, cityexile said:

I know this is all technical stuff that I must confess I do not entirely follow, but as an interested (but non accounting) follower it does seem there are two things that can get mixed up a little for those who are interested.:

-   Meeting the requirements of FFP. Sure it’s meant to ensure a level playing field, but it is where most of the games accounting wise seem to get played. ‘How can we treat this to stay within these rules’. Seems from the outside a bit of a arms race with clubs trying to come up with fancy new treatments that the EFL then try and close down:

-   Related, but different, does a club have the funds to pay its debts. You can play all the accounting ruses in the world, but there does come a time you will run out of money and simply cannot pay your bills.

Derby, for all the clever stuff on their stadium etc, still ran out of money. Clearly FFP is designed to reduce the chances of that happening, but it just seems to reinforce that you can  play all the games you like, but if your funding is not secure you will go bust. Can argue till the cows come home about some of their accounting treatments, but rather than a ruse to get round FFP, ultimately it meant they went bust.

Taking us, we could conceivably fall foul of FFP and take a penalty. For all SLs faults I do not believe for one minute he would actually allow us to go bust. This might be naive, but have a sneaky feeling when push comes to shove given all the COVID challenges, the EFL might be slightly more forgiving around FFP in the short term, IF they are convinced there is no real financial risk to the club going forward. 

Good post. A lot of people can conflate these issues you are right.

The EFL have actually shut off a range of loopholes, the Fixed Asset one is the big one we have seen exploited from 2017/18 to last season. UEFA have actually had the Fixed Asset one shut since day one of FFP. It seemed to open in the EFL from 2016/17 to 2020/21 and has been shut again.

I do agree on SL. He won't abdicate his wider responsibilities even if we fail FFP and I get docked points.

Neither in fairness, have the owners of Birmingham, Reading or Sheffield Wednesday to date although they seem somewhat questionable.

What made the Derby case unique to date was the fact that they seemed to go into administration at the same time as having an FFP case hanging over them..that is unique and without precedent.

Birmingham, Reading and Sheffield Wednesday didn't run out of cash/owner funding but failed FFP.

Bolton and Wigan ran out of cash or owner funding but didn't lose enough to breach FFP. They just didn't.

Seems pretty hard to have both issues simultaneously but Mel Morris achieved it! He also as he promised years ago took them out of the division...

You might be right but in the interests of fairness and consistency plus all the clubs who were within FFP especially after Covid adjustments the EFL may still have to look at Business Plans at the very least going into 2022/23.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[REDOXO]

3 hours ago, cityexile said:

I know this is all technical stuff that I must confess I do not entirely follow, but as an interested (but non accounting) follower it does seem there are two things that can get mixed up a little for those who are interested.:

-   Meeting the requirements of FFP. Sure it’s meant to ensure a level playing field, but it is where most of the games accounting wise seem to get played. ‘How can we treat this to stay within these rules’. Seems from the outside a bit of a arms race with clubs trying to come up with fancy new treatments that the EFL then try and close down:

-   Related, but different, does a club have the funds to pay its debts. You can play all the accounting ruses in the world, but there does come a time you will run out of money and simply cannot pay your bills.

Derby, for all the clever stuff on their stadium etc, still ran out of money. Clearly FFP is designed to reduce the chances of that happening, but it just seems to reinforce that you can  play all the games you like, but if your funding is not secure you will go bust. Can argue till the cows come home about some of their accounting treatments, but rather than a ruse to get round FFP, ultimately it meant they went bust.

Taking us, we could conceivably fall foul of FFP and take a penalty. For all SLs faults I do not believe for one minute he would actually allow us to go bust. This might be naive, but have a sneaky feeling when push comes to shove given all the COVID challenges, the EFL might be slightly more forgiving around FFP in the short term, IF they are convinced there is no real financial risk to the club going forward. 

Yes cash is what kills businesses as you so succinctly put it! Great post!  

Edited April 20, 2022 by REDOXO

[Waconda]

On 19/04/2022 at 15:45, Davefevs said:

Comments above.

If Derby put out this team v us and you ignore finances / points deduction etc

Roos

Byrne / Jagielka / Davies / Buchanan

Knight / Shinnie / Bird

Eboseke / CKR / Lawrence

Subs (from): Morrison, Joswiak, Stearman, Marshall, Sibley, Forsyth etc

might you argue that’s better than City?  I didn’t include Bielik.

All about opinions though, but I think that’s a tad stronger than us….not much, admittedly….but I don’t think it’s weak either.  Bottom end of middle-eight, just like us.

                         Bentley

       Kakas     Klose     Baker     DaSilva

          HNM     James     Williams

      Weimann     Martin     Semenyo

Subs.

from.

Oleary, Atkinson, Tanner, Pring, King, Bakinson, ODowda, Wells, Palmer. Scott, Benarous etc

 

We have a stronger squad them them for sure.

You know it, I know it.

Your obsession with pretending that our squad is weaker than it is to suit a narrative is embarrassing.

You actually said that Luton have a better squad than us FFS !!

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

I won't stir up the hornets nest but I would say this about the below. 

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/38131-views-from-the-outside-2122/?do=findComment&comment=2328857

Basically we are and have been quite strong believers in FFP as a club and a fanbase. Wasn't just the scale of the losses but how Derby tried to cover it up. Am quite at ease now relegation has occurred but at the same time the EFL have a duty to 72 not one in order to maintain the integrity of the League. To e.g. allow Derby to go carte blanche signing players as they see fit at the same time as a huge amount of debt written off would not sit well at all.

I also have to say that they- by which I mean the EFL- have upheld their rules impressively. They did not bow to pressure, the MPs getting involved didn't lead to them crumbling on FFP or insolvency issues, even refusing the cramdown option for Middlesbrough and Wycombe- this was a bit unexpected.

Many though would see relegation as a fitting punishment- and the same with Sheffield Wednesday. Reading too although that's looking unlikely now? I do on a general note have to wonder whether the EFL goal for flagrant breaches of FFP is a drip-drip effect, embargoes and points to weaken a side to the point of relegation.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

@Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

@Mr Popodopolous

Thanks Dave.

Had a quick look at Kieran's summary, interesting to see that the HMRC debt has shot up by over 1/4. Unsure why the club is listed twice in Secured Creditors, cross-guarantee of some kind...thought there was also a second MSD loan in October 2020 secured against the Training Ground although it could all be bundled in and included as one.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

33 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Thanks Dave.

Had a quick look at Kieran's summary, interesting to see that the HMRC debt has shot up by over 1/4. Unsure why the club is listed twice in Secured Creditors, cross guarantee of some kind...thought there was also a second MSD loan in October 2020 secured against the Training Ground although it could all be bundled in and included as one.

Quantuma and Kirchner seem to have said nothing recently about paying the debt to HMRC. Not so much as a bland "constructive talks are ongoing" statement.

Have I missed something?

[Hxj]

45 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Unsure why the club is listed twice in Secured Creditors

There are two separate pre-administration secured loans created on 6 August 2020 and 8 November 2020, the date in the latest report is an error .  The different security held has an impact on what is paid out on the charge.  

[Mr Popodopolous]

The running costs also appear to be remarkably low for a good sized club that has a category 1 academy.

They are quite happy to transfer revenue to the club from Club DCFC, Stadia DCFC and The Derby County FC Academy but the actual running costs- well relative to infrastructure it appears to run on thin air! Of course it's trading receipts only but given that even in the good times, these companies ran at a deficit it's all rather curious.

No rent to Mel Morris either!

For the sake of comparison, the following was shown in the years in which those 3 chose to release accounts...These are small companies so only have to release limited amounts of info.

Club DCFC Limited

As we can see, Club DCFC ran at a deficit of about £2.9m per season/year when averaged albeit the 1st year was a 13 month period.

Stadia DCFC

Again as above, to June 2017 was 13 months. All the same that is an average of about £3.6m per year deficit, indeed the deficit in both of these was higher in Year 2 than 1!

The Derby County FC Academy

Tbh Academy expenditure net of grants received is excluded from FFP. All the same it is not cheap to run!

Seems somewhat strange that the entire running costs are £13.944m in a 6 month period now!

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

I am interested as to how the costs appear to have fallen to the extent they have. Only £371k in a 6 month period for a Cat. 1 Academy. Although these are cash ins and outs I assume.

I remember for a time they seemed to include income from the subsidiaries while the costs were over at Sevco 5112 Limited but that was up to 2018!

Their running costs were about £75m- the consolidated that is, inclusive of everything from cash and non cash alike- in 2017/18 (Sevco 5112).

Edited April 22, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

50 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Quantuma and Kirchner seem to have said nothing recently about paying the debt to HMRC. Not so much as a bland "constructive talks are ongoing" statement.

Have I missed something?

Think maybe they are planning to offer HMRC the same as Unsecured Creditors ie 35% in 3 years but tbh no idea...gone a bit quiet on HMRC front hasn't it? I'm speculating a bit.

I did read albeit on Twitter a month or 2 ago that Derby had agreed a 25% or 1/3 with HMRC but surely this would have been trumpeted from the rooftops?

[chinapig]

18 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Think maybe they are planning to offer HMRC the same as Unsecured Creditors ie 35% in 3 years but tbh no idea...gone a bit quiet on HMRC front hasn't it? I'm speculating a bit.

I did read albeit on Twitter a month or 2 ago that Derby had agreed a 25% or 1/3 with HMRC but surely this would have been trumpeted from the rooftops?

Either would have other clubs who meet their tax liabilities in full up in arms I would have thought.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Either would have other clubs who meet their tax liabilities in full up in arms I would have thought.

Would have thought so yes. The precise nature of the EFL insolvency policy isn't actually out there in the public domain though, save for snippets that Kieran Maguire found somewhere a few weeks ago- although I cannot find it listed on the EFL site or similar so...

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, chinapig said:

Either would have other clubs who meet their tax liabilities in full up in arms I would have thought.

So Mr Gould, we are deducting your club 4 points because you broke FFP.  Had you held back the PAYE and NI and VAT you wouldn’t have broken FFP.  Unlucky.

Not gonna wash is it.

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

So Mr Gould, we are deducting your club 4 points because you broke FFP.  Had you held back the PAYE and NI and VAT you wouldn’t have broken FFP.  Unlucky.

Not gonna wash is it.

Indeed. I was under the impression, courtesy of the EFL themselves that the starting point of their Insolvency Policy is that no club should gain an advantage via Insolvency.

Quote

"The EFL’s Insolvency Policy is designed to offer guidance to Clubs on how the board might seek to deal with any Club in administration. That policy, which has been accepted by all 72 Clubs, describes how the Members agreed ‘that the starting point is that no Club should gain (or seek to gain) any advantage within the context of professional football over other Clubs by not paying all its creditors in full at all times.’

From their statement in Jan/Feb time around the time Quantuma were seeking to cram down the Middlesbrough and Wycombe claims.

Any kind of HMRC slashing of monies due would constitute a significant advantage, or could.

Aaaah- I wonder, devil in the detail? Is this specifically pertaining to Football Creditors?

Edited April 22, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[downendcity]

3 hours ago, chinapig said:

Quantuma and Kirchner seem to have said nothing recently about paying the debt to HMRC. Not so much as a bland "constructive talks are ongoing" statement.

Have I missed something?

You’ve probably missed an “imminently” somewhere there China. 

 

 

[Derby_Ram]

On 20/04/2022 at 12:35, Mr Popodopolous said:

Now Byrne, I have him down a) As a decent RB for a start b) In and around peak years, 29 isn't he- WhoScored says he's made 40 starts which is excellent.

Bielik I guess would be your equivalent of Williams- as in often injured but a good CM all the same, both a similar age although Williams now 25, Bielik 24.

Knight has played 35 Championship games for example- midfield is often the engine room of a side, I would suggest Derby have had more stability in CM than us this season.

Bird- another. 38 starts, 1 sub appearance.

Central defence- Davies 43/43 starts.

On the flipside, Shinnie was injured for a time- and then sold, aforementioned Bielik and Jagielka being pulled out did not help.

I also would suggest that Derby had a weaker squad than last season- or a thinner one anyway, even before the January mini firesale. That's credit to Rooney for getting more points with a thinner squad.

1. Wisdom- Gone
2. Clarke- Strong loanee, gone.
3. Waghorn- Gone
4. Marriott- Gone

Plus January loanees in Mengi, Edmundson, Roberts and Gregory. They in a way replaced players such as Evans, Holmes and Whittaker IIRC?

Talking of Wisdom cash permitting, and obviously his fitness will be shot by not being resigned by Derby, he'd be a useful addition for a Championship club on a free IMO.

Good post.

Focused on the Derby bit as you know much better than me on anything City related.

Byrne - excellent player and despite being diminutive in size is physically strong. Speed, stamina and ability to stay fit.

Bielek - if he didn't have ACL injuries he'd never be injured . He was out for over a year before coming back in Jan but still not up to match speed. A shame if injuries ruin his career.

Knight is durable and played most weeks but don't mistake that with our CM being stable. He's been the sacrificial lamb covering most roles besides his natural CM position. It's been Bird plus one of the rotation of Shinnie, Thompson, Bielek with a touch of Knight and Morrison occasionally deployed in a more defensive role. I've felt for Knight this year.

Of last years loanees none really established themselves with the exception of Clarke so losing Jags was huge in Jan. Wisdom was always expected to be the next one signed by us throughout the first half of the season and Jan....if the embargo was listed.

Interestingly Rooney has already announced tomorrow's team.

A 4-2-3-1 with Stearman in for Cashin and Forsyth in for Buchanan in defence.

Midfield of Bird, Thompson, Ebiowei, Morrison and Louie Watson, with Cybulski upfront for his first start. Definitely an eye on next season leaving Bielek, Plange, Buchanan and Knight out along with the suspended Lawrence. The hope would be most of these would sign a contract if the takeover comes in time.

Unfortunately I think we'll be too powderpuff going forward tomorrow with the absences. We'll be heavily relying on Ebiowei who is the latest 18 year old to excel. If you could combine his skill on the ball with Ebosele's pace and power you'd have some player! 

I think you're liable to turn us over tomorrow given our line up

[Davefevs]

Could Plange’s omission be a case of Palace asking for him not to play now your relegation has been confirmed, e.g. no point risking injury?

[Derby_Ram]

I doubt it. Cybulski has come off the bench a couple of times when chasing a goal in the last ten minutes so thinks WR does want to give him a shot. Hasn't looked good enough to me in the U23s - Bambi on ice.

Plange is nowhere near prem standard yet and if we had another option would have been dropped/rotated a while ago. Palace will probably need to loan him out again next year so its not impossible they requested it but I'd expect them to want him to get every minute of experience he can. 

[ExiledAjax]

17 minutes ago, Derby_Ram said:

I doubt it. Cybulski has come off the bench a couple of times when chasing a goal in the last ten minutes so thinks WR does want to give him a shot. Hasn't looked good enough to me in the U23s - Bambi on ice.

Plange is nowhere near prem standard yet and if we had another option would have been dropped/rotated a while ago. Palace will probably need to loan him out again next year so its not impossible they requested it but I'd expect them to want him to get every minute of experience he can. 

Yeh but is experience against our defence really "experience"? 

[elhombrecito]

Can't have this thread lingering near the bottom on today of all days.

(Hi, Rams fans )

[Hxj]

On 22/04/2022 at 13:13, Mr Popodopolous said:

Only £371k in a 6 month period for a Cat. 1 Academy. Although these are cash ins and outs I assume.

Looking at the figures this will exclude all salaries and wages.

It's also interesting that the whole club is still spending £1.6 million a month on salaries, cash paid as salaries plus HMRC deductions in list provided.  That annualises at £20 million a season.

 

[chinapig]

A teaser from Kieran Maguire today saying he will be talking about Quantuma's fees in Thursday's Price of Football podcast.

Should be interesting/fun.

[ExiledAjax]

10 minutes ago, chinapig said:

A teaser from Kieran Maguire today saying he will be talking about Quantuma's fees in Thursday's Price of Football podcast.

Should be interesting/fun.

I'd imagine he thinks the fees are fair, reasonable and well-earned. Maybe.

[Mr Popodopolous]

No news although we all see snippets on forums etc.

Found this one interesting...lot of bullishness among Derby fans if this is anything to go by.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[cityexile]

Anyhow. Here is my chaos take for the end of the season.

Derby win their last match and Reading lose. Derby then sue the EFL demanding Reading get another 6 points deduction which is currently suspended, to keep Derby up.

Derby fans claiming from every roof top that cheats should not proper.

Edited April 30, 2022 by cityexile