Derby County

[chinapig]

I see Rooney said yesterday that he expects the takeover to be completed within 10 days. Imminent again then.

[ExiledAjax]

5 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I see Rooney said yesterday that he expects the takeover to be completed within 10 days. Imminent again then.

Haha. Rooney has been wrong almost every time he's opened his mouth on this subject. The guy knows chuff all about insolvency, M&A deals, land law and charges. The bloke just says what he has to say in press conferences.

Ps. I see Tom Lawrence "wants to be here, but it has to be right for everyone" and they've had "open conversations" with other clubs. So he's off then isn't he.

[chinapig]

1 minute ago, ExiledAjax said:

Haha. Rooney has been wrong almost every time he's opened his mouth on this subject. The guy knows chuff all about insolvency, M&A deals, land law and charges. The bloke just says what he has to say in press conferences.

But Quantuma told him in their usual good faith so it must be true.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

Haha. Rooney has been wrong almost every time he's opened his mouth on this subject. The guy knows chuff all about insolvency, M&A deals, land law and charges. The bloke just says what he has to say in press conferences.

Ps. I see Tom Lawrence "wants to be here, but it has to be right for everyone" and they've had "open conversations" with other clubs. So he's off then isn't he.

Derby fans will be lapping it up (not all of them admittedly). They’ll be planning their promotion celebrations already.

It is naive to think that the squad they have in August will be anything like it is now.  Fair play to any Derby player who sticks with them out of principle.

Like Ipswich, the change from reasoned Fans in the Champ to deluded ones in relegation to Lg1 amazes me.

In the past week some of their fans genuinely think they could sign Jacob Brown. Antoine Semenyo and yesterday, Lucas Joao.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Derby fans will be lapping it up (not all of them admittedly). They’ll be planning their promotion celebrations already.

It is naive to think that the squad they have in August will be anything like it is now.  Fair play to any Derby player who sticks with them out of principle.

Like Ipswich, the change from reasoned Fans in the Champ to deluded ones in relegation to Lg1 amazes me.

In the past week some of their fans genuinely think they could sign Jacob Brown. Antoine Semenyo and yesterday, Lucas Joao.

Agreed with this although I remember reading and nearly fell off my chair when I did, it was clear that a long battle with the EFL was on the horizon and they had just scraped survival, a suggestion on their forum that they sign Adam Armstrong!

I mean wow! Championship but FFP and no accounts submitted for approaching 2 years at that stage, plus his record and fee but new owner and we sign Armstrong. Never mind the fact he had suitors much better placed on the pitch.

Would assume that they would be under a Business Plan under Kirchner, ie an EFL administration exit one, can't see the EFL remotely letting them splash out for the players you list and then again on the pitch considerations for to name 3, Brown, Semenyo and Joao.

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Like Ipswich, the change from reasoned Fans in the Champ to deluded ones in relegation to Lg1 amazes me.

In the past week some of their fans genuinely think they could sign Jacob Brown. Antoine Semenyo and yesterday, Lucas Joao.

Not Mitrovic? No ambition at all.

[Mr Popodopolous]

FWIW Nixon has said EFL approval by next week or something.

The two year financial conditions bit or however long it is will be interesting. EFL have powers to impose a) Regulation 16.20 to uphold a range of their rules or b) Such other conditions as they see fit and a prospective new owner has to agree to this.

Regulation 16.20 is basically where they can set a budget for a club in varied aspects.

[Derby_Ram]

17 hours ago, cityexile said:

Derby win their last match and Reading lose. Derby then sue the EFL demanding Reading get another 6 points deduction which is currently suspended, to keep Derby up.

What a cracking idea. On it now. "Dear Mr. Parry...."

5 hours ago, chinapig said:

I see Rooney said yesterday that he expects the takeover to be completed within 10 days. Imminent again then.

CK seemed rather bullish in a tweet last night about all of us celebrating at the Cardiff game. I'll still believe it if rather than when anything happens.

5 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Haha. Rooney has been wrong almost every time he's opened his mouth on this subject. The guy knows chuff all about insolvency, M&A deals, land law and charges. The bloke just says what he has to say in press conferences.

I think he's been quite astute in them since being burnt by Quantuma initially. Has at times - with justification - thrown them under the bus and painted himself in the "woe me" position. He'll be much more of a media favourite now than he was six months ago which I'm sure sits in with his plans.

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

In the past week some of their fans genuinely think they could sign Jacob Brown. Antoine Semenyo and yesterday, Lucas Joao.

I think a fair bit of cherry picking with this. Yep some will come out with unrealistic names but the majority know that's not the case. It's not just a Derby thing either - I saw some City fans mentioning Lawrence

[Davefevs]

4 hours ago, Derby_Ram said:

I think a fair bit of cherry picking with this. Yep some will come out with unrealistic names but the majority know that's not the case. It's not just a Derby thing either - I saw some City fans mentioning Lawrence

I was referring to Ipswich fans….but yeah, lots of unrealistic stuff from all fans.

[1960maaan]

5 hours ago, Derby_Ram said:

I think he's been quite astute in them since being burnt by Quantuma initially. Has at times - with justification - thrown them under the bus and painted himself in the "woe me" position. He'll be much more of a media favourite now than he was six months ago which I'm sure sits in with his plans.

I imagine he would have had plenty of media training, and working under Ferguson he would have seen it at first hand. 
Not his biggest fan, but what I've seen and heard I think he's conducted himself well in a mental situation.
Not done too bad with the team either TBF.

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 hours ago, Derby_Ram said:

I think a fair bit of cherry picking with this. Yep some will come out with unrealistic names but the majority know that's not the case. It's not just a Derby thing either - I saw some City fans mentioning Lawrence

It'll depend on the Business Plan won't it? All clubs fans have unrealistic targets tbh you're right, Lawrence certainly won't be coming here- he may well move on IMO to a higher Championship club or lower PL he's been linked with in recent months. Either way we won't be getting him.

Derby wise, think Bolton and Wigan were under quite restrictive business plans post administration. EFL mentioned approval of signings for 2 years and restrictions or 3 if 35p in the £ over 3 years to stop clubs gaining an advantage etc.

Might also ask, what of Wycombe. Have they dropped their claim? Would be an unexpected twist (regardless of the merits of it, the EFL were quite clear that it couldn't just be ignored or disregarded).

Edited May 1, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

The chatter in respect of Pride Park is that the council will buy Pride Park, suggested it would be purchased via borrowed money.

Public Works Loan Board (disclaimer, I know little about this) was one suggested loan source. However devil in the detail a bit?

https://www.ashfords.co.uk/news-and-media/general/hm-treasury-stops-public-loans-to-council-s-for-commercial-property

Would borrowing to purchase Pride Park thereby indirectly paying the MSD loan and structuring a deal in this way fall into this category?

Government should be watching this closely, local rate payers should be watching this closely- what about rate payers elsewhere given that councils are partially subsidised via central funding after all. Any grounds for a Judicial Review or alternative form of legal challenge?

Although a little more devil and detail.

https://www.localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk/projects-and-regeneration/403-projects-news/48010-treasury-guidance-sees-councils-allowed-to-use-public-works-loan-board-to-refinance-commercial-property-debt-that-would-otherwise-be-ineligible-for-support

Edited May 2, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[cityfan1958]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The chatter in respect of Pride Park is that the council will buy Pride Park, suggested it would be purchased via borrowed money.

Public Works Loan Board (disclaimer, I know little about this) was one suggested loan source. However devil in the detail a bit?

https://www.ashfords.co.uk/news-and-media/general/hm-treasury-stops-public-loans-to-council-s-for-commercial-property

Would borrowing to purchase Pride Park thereby indirectly paying the MSD loan and structuring a deal in this way fall into this category?

Government should be watching this closely, local rate payers should be watching this closely- what about rate payers elsewhere given that councils are partially subsidised via central funding after all. Any grounds for a Judicial Review or alternative form of legal challenge?

Although a little more devil and detail.

https://www.localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk/projects-and-regeneration/403-projects-news/48010-treasury-guidance-sees-councils-allowed-to-use-public-works-loan-board-to-refinance-commercial-property-debt-that-would-otherwise-be-ineligible-for-support

Is it just me, they fail to pay between 20 and 30 million in tax, and then the tax payers buy’s their ground for them, a ground that was “sold” as a means of cheating to start with, un real !

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 hours ago, cityfan1958 said:

Is it just me, they fail to pay between 20 and 30 million in tax, and then the tax payers buy’s their ground for them, a ground that was “sold” as a means of cheating to start with, un real !

It's massively objectionable.

For their part, the EFL need to step up and impose a suitably punitive business plan moving forward but it goes beyond football.

It's funny that, well not funny but interesting:

1) Mel Morris is/has been an adviser on Business or ambassador to Derby City Council.

2) If the chatter is accurate they are now covering his debt ie deal structured to pay the debt, get Stadium to the council. Money likely borrowed, Derby would pay interest on the loan in the form of rent.

Imagine the optics! Worth noting too that Mel Morris donated to Patrick McLoughlin MP in June 2017 albeit not a major one or a recurring one.

Tory Donor-Derby City Council Business Ambassador-Recent owner of DCFC- Debt paid off by DCC.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Plus, normal companies I am quite sure can get wound up over far, far less HMRC debt than Derby have. Latest report was £36m now.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Business Plan

I'll start the bidding at no transfer fees for the duration of the Business Plan, cap of £5k per week wages per new signing and perhaps also applicable to contract renewals for the duration of the Business Plan, either a bar on or a massive limitation on loan fees, signing on fees and a small % of the wage only on agents fees.

2 years or 3 if they want the 35% thing plus a - 15 to be applied if the Insolvency Policy not adhered to.

Must also add, what Kirchner has said is massively at odds with what the EFL said in feedback with RamsTrust.

He has stated he believes that the Embargo will be lifted, whereas I am sure it is to remain in place for two years, EFL intimated as such in the past as part of the moral hazard bits. (They said to balance competition and interests etc).

https://ramstrust.org.uk/wp/dcfc-supporters-groups-meet-efl/

Business Plan may supersede Embargo but it needs to be along the lines of the template I've posted I think.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Hxj]

Kirchner has been busy on Twitter recently.

Two points he makes - 

• "I’m fiscally responsible for the club starting in 6 days and it needs to be done for me to write checks."
• "I’m conditional that MM no longer owns the stadium. I’m not directly involved in those discussions, so I don’t have a comment right now."

So he won't pay for the stadium and requires someone else to buy it from Morris.

As I understand things at the moment there are still some significant issues in respect of:

•  The acquisition of the Stadium, the cost and the rent and what hoops the City Council have to jump through to undertake and finance the transaction.
•  Kirchner actually writing a cheque.
•  The Business Plan with the EFL.

There is an impression that CK is setting up the Council and Morris to fail.

Finally his most relevant quote:

• "Hoping we don't have to answer that question" in response to "What happens if it doesn't get sorted by 7 May?"

Not sure 'Hoping' fills me with any confidence at this late stage.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Hxj

[Mr Popodopolous]

34 minutes ago, Hxj said:

Kirchner has been busy on Twitter recently.

Two points he makes - 

• "I’m fiscally responsible for the club starting in 6 days and it needs to be done for me to write checks."
• "I’m conditional that MM no longer owns the stadium. I’m not directly involved in those discussions, so I don’t have a comment right now."

So he won't pay for the stadium and requires someone else to buy it from Morris.

As I understand things at the moment there are still some significant issues in respect of:

•  The acquisition of the Stadium, the cost and the rent and what hoops the City Council have to jump through to undertake and finance the transaction.
•  Kirchner actually writing a cheque.
•  The Business Plan with the EFL.

There is an impression that CK is setting up the Council and Morris to fail.

Finally his most relevant quote:

• "Hoping we don't have to answer that question" in response to "What happens if it doesn't get sorted by 7 May?"

Not sure 'Hoping' fills me with any confidence at this late stage.

Interesting, thanks.

I might also ask, two issues that have pretty much disappeared.

HMRC

Have they just caved and accepted a much lower amount as a) Derby deemed a 'community asset' and b) Something better than nothing.

Wycombe

Has Mr. Couhig literally shelved his claim? It's gone silent, resolved, dropped, still outstanding do we think? I appreciate that the claim is of questionable legal merit...

(A 'community asset' that went into administration with amongst others debts owing to the Council, many local small businesses and, er the Community Trust would you believe).

Edited May 2, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

41 minutes ago, Hxj said:

Kirchner has been busy on Twitter recently.

Two points he makes - 

• "I’m fiscally responsible for the club starting in 6 days and it needs to be done for me to write checks."
• "I’m conditional that MM no longer owns the stadium. I’m not directly involved in those discussions, so I don’t have a comment right now."

So he won't pay for the stadium and requires someone else to buy it from Morris.

As I understand things at the moment there are still some significant issues in respect of:

•  The acquisition of the Stadium, the cost and the rent and what hoops the City Council have to jump through to undertake and finance the transaction.
•  Kirchner actually writing a cheque.
•  The Business Plan with the EFL.

There is an impression that CK is setting up the Council and Morris to fail.

Finally his most relevant quote:

• "Hoping we don't have to answer that question" in response to "What happens if it doesn't get sorted by 7 May?"

Not sure 'Hoping' fills me with any confidence at this late stage.

The timescales smells of “not a hope”.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Quick football related question too.

Pearson said Davies should have reffed on the parks and got a fine.

Rooney queried whether there was a bias in one post match interview and in another said the referee himself should be banned. March and April respectively.

Anything?

Quote

"All animals football clubs/managers etc are equal but some animals football clubs/managers etc are more equal than others"?

Not suggesting I'd like to swap places with Derby, frankly we have the better of it by far given the current off field uncertainty there- not for a moment but it's an interesting q.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Wonder if S8TY- I was browsing their Administration thread earlier- took the moral high ground and showed a strong foresight when Mel Morris purchased Pride Park to swerve FFP and give a bit more headroom moving forward.

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/38855-the-administration-thread/?do=findComment&comment=2333853

[Mr Popodopolous]

:laugh:, old man Gee Screamer on the whisky again.

Not a lot to say other than enjoy League 1 and the Imposed Business Plan.

There's not much sympathy among Championship clubs for Derby or among Championship fans and SOME on DCFCFans are a good reason why.

Not me FWIW but some okay posts.

Relegation occured, kinda sated now provided that the EFL don't cut corners.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

 

[chinapig]

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

I read Kirchner's last comments as saying sign off on the deal now because I am not going to fund the club after Saturday. Will be intetesting to see what happens on that.

And of course the stadium sale is going to take time, even if you think it is acceptable for the local council to be handing Morris £20m.

Still no news on any deal with HMRC, though I suspect any sweetheart deal will infuriate clubs who pay their taxes.

Still not imminent then.

[ExiledAjax]

8 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I read Kirchner's last comments as saying sign off on the deal now because I am not going to fund the club after Saturday. Will be intetesting to see what happens on that.

And of course the stadium sale is going to take time, even if you think it is acceptable for the local council to be handing Morris £20m.

Still no news on any deal with HMRC, though I suspect any sweetheart deal will infuriate clubs who pay their taxes.

Still not imminent then.

I saw a tweet where he referred to a "conditional" share purchase agreement. I very rarely would recommend such a thing, but I suppose it is possible to sign an SPA that transfers voting power (by way of a POA) without transferring legal title or beneficial title to the shares. transfer of the legal and beneficial title, ie "ownership" could then be conditional upon anything, including the sale of the stadium. That would allow him to operate the club using the voting POA, but would not make him the full owner of the shares. It could also have stipulations regarding ongoing funding of the company.

But, the above would be unusual enough to no doubt require "further dialogue" with the EFL. It would be far from straightforward, and if the EFL approved it and then those conditions were not met...potentially very sticky.

Edited May 5, 2022 by ExiledAjax

[Mr Popodopolous]

HMRC have accepted 35p in the £ then?? 2+2=5? Just reading between the lines of Kirchner and the apparent remaining hurdle(s).

Seems odd given that a) The new rules were introduced in December 2020 about a bump up in their status for a variety of types of HMRC debt- and b) We are at a time whereby HMRC need every penny. They also claim not to do sweetheart deals...the silence on the HMRC issue has been deafening for a while.

If they insisted on full payment then either they would get zero or £36m over time...if they folded for 35% it would be barring any interest payments on said debt, £12.6m.

Deafening silence on Wycombe too- surely it would have been reported had Couhig settled.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Derby_Ram]

Reading between the lines, and John Percy's subsequent tweet in reply it does feel like a behind the scenes deal with HMRC could have been agreed.

Grave sticking point remains the ground and I never thought Purdah would have an impact on any takeovers but here we are. My sense is a deal on the ground can't be completed before next week due to the time it takes DCC to follow process on the loan but they can't formally say anything now leaving everyone in the dark. Rumours of MM jacking the price up in the last couple of days abound too. 

I think CK will get approval from the EFL, last couple of i's and t's to be dotted and crossed; he then has to make a call on whether he can complete and fun based on the ground not being fully done and dusted.

Wycombe I have zero concern over, Mr P. CK was very upfront before Christmas that he'd take Couhig on as the claim had no substance in his and his lawyers eyes. Ultimately he may still lose any case but it shouldn't be an impediment to a takeover as he said before he'd underwrite it. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Thanks, does make some sense- although I would expect a fairly hardline Business Plan on Derby if so- 65% of debt written off is an enormous advantage if accurate so...needs some significant EFL countermeasures to compensate.

I thought the Wycombe claim was relatively small in the grand scheme so taking on the potential debt and fighting the case would seem a way to go- I assume Wycombe have not dropped their claim?

He'll get approval yes but will he be happy to work under the Parameters?

Borrowing money is interesting- from whom would they borrow? I mentioned the other day a rule change in respect of borrowing for Commercial purposes.

https://www.ashfords.co.uk/news-and-media/general/hm-treasury-stops-public-loans-to-council-s-for-commercial-property

https://www.localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk/projects-and-regeneration/403-projects-news/48010-treasury-guidance-sees-councils-allowed-to-use-public-works-loan-board-to-refinance-commercial-property-debt-that-would-otherwise-be-ineligible-for-support

As for some on DCFCFans- I do wish I had gone to Pride Park, esp in Hospitality as I was considering. Maybe next season if I am up North!

Derby v Sunderland or Derby v Ipswich, Derby v Bolton or even Derby v Sheffield Wednesday- some reasonable games down there subject to playoffs- am I missing some?

Edited May 5, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

8 minutes ago, Derby_Ram said:

Reading between the lines, and John Percy's subsequent tweet in reply it does feel like a behind the scenes deal with HMRC could have been agreed.

Quite probably, despite HMRC claiming they don't do sweetheart deals. Though I doubt they would do the same for a small business that was struggling because Morris didn't pay the bills. Low hanging fruit and all that.

If I was a club owner I would be tempted to write to HMRC to say I would only pay 35% of taxes due as I didn't see why my club shouldn't benefit from cheating as well.

Grave sticking point remains the ground and I never thought Purdah would have an impact on any takeovers but here we are. My sense is a deal on the ground can't be completed before next week due to the time it takes DCC to follow process on the loan but they can't formally say anything now leaving everyone in the dark. Rumours of MM jacking the price up in the last couple of days abound too. 

I still find it extraordinary in these straitened times that nobody bats an eyelid at a local authority bailing out a scumbag like Morris. What happens if Kirchner doesn't keep up payments to DCC also?

Perhaps we should have asked Bristol City Council to pay for the upgrade to Ashton Gate. I'm sure local tax payers wouldn't have minded.

How plausible are the rumours that Morris has upped the price? Wouldn't surprise me as his aim all along has been to look after number one.

I think CK will get approval from the EFL, last couple of i's and t's to be dotted and crossed; he then has to make a call on whether he can complete and fun based on the ground not being fully done and dusted.

Can the EFL agree if there is no certainty that Derby will have a ground to play at? Again, Morris is looking after his interests while Kirchner is neither willing nor able to buy the Stadium. Though it's all the EFL's fault of course.

Wycombe I have zero concern over, Mr P. CK was very upfront before Christmas that he'd take Couhig on as the claim had no substance in his and his lawyers eyes. Ultimately he may still lose any case but it shouldn't be an impediment to a takeover as he said before he'd underwrite it. 

Kieran Maguire reckoned that Wycombe's claim was for a trivial amount anyway so I don't think it's an issue now.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

@chinapig

Quote

I still find it extraordinary in these straitened times that nobody bats an eyelid at a local authority bailing out a scumbag like Morris. What happens if Kirchner doesn't keep up payments to DCC also?

Hasn't yet been formally confirmed- would we expect a lot more noise and pushback when it goes through and the noise? (Not from Derby but around the country)- I wonder if local MPs elsewhere will kick off.

Remember councils are partially funded by the taxpayer and the irony is not lost that Derby courtesy of Mel Morris owe the taxpayer rather a lot of money...in an ideal world, Pride Park would be seized and sold to pay the creditors from MSD to the local baker- to a financial Investment property firm on a commercial basis, I am sure that they would set a Fair Rent for Derby. Main thing is it would cut out Mel Morris.

[Monkeh]

If a deal with the hmrc has been made, then that's how much I'm reducing my tax by

[Derby_Ram]

Mr P.

Wycombe - nothing announced. Wouldnt surprise me to see Couhig flounce off if challenged. Had a feel of Ambulance chasing.

DCC borrowing money - not an expert, and can't for life of me track it down (still looking) but there was a link somewhere which demonstrated how they could still borrow money. I just don't enough to comment properly but gut says if they had no mechanism to access it we wouldn't be this far down the line.

Plenty of crackers next year - Wednesday, Sunderland, Wycombe could be tasty...., Ipswich, Bolton, 

Your ideal scenario of Pride Park being seized - if serious - is you in cloud cuckoo land

CK has already briefed the Sun who've run the story in the last 15mins about a ground share with Stoke or Leicester next year.

 

Chinapig

HMRC - anyone can do it. They've fought to get preferential status. Would seem odd not to use it but if they deem this is the most they'll get....

EFL agree with no ground? - as above the brinkmanship started. CK obviously has had conversations with 2 other clubs. Could conceivably be he says to EFL " I'm either buying the ground, renting from DCC, or groundsharing. Don't know which yet but here's the worst case groundshare"

Batting eyelids at DCC bailing out Morris - I wouldn't expect you to (it's not your club and there's no need) but you're not looking properly. We don't like it. But if it eliminates MM from the picture you suck it up. 

 

Monkeh

Let me know how you get on so I know if its worth me giving it a go

[Mr Popodopolous]

11 minutes ago, Derby_Ram said:

Mr P.

Your ideal scenario of Pride Park being seized - if serious - is you in cloud cuckoo land

I said ideal not realistic. Seize Pride Park to sell it and pay off creditors- would have no issue with that from an ideal POV.

11 minutes ago, Derby_Ram said:

Batting eyelids at DCC bailing out Morris - I wouldn't expect you to (it's not your club and there's no need) but you're not looking properly. We don't like it. But if it eliminates MM from the picture you suck it up. 

In which case, some kinda formula to subtract central government funding to Derby on a pro rata basis linked to the HMRC debt. Central funding does go to councils, some % of clawback or withhold in terms of the HMRC Derby debt given that the council would be complicit in a dubious bailout of a club who owe the Government £36m. 

Quote

In 2019/20, local authorities in England received 23% of their funding from government grants

Some kind of formula but we know that 23% of funding comes from Central Government for councils in England. Clearly not 23% but my starting point is withholding a certain amount of Central Govt funding and rediverting it to make good the HMRC debt.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

Ground share to undermine Morris I’m in favour of.

[Mr Popodopolous]

One bit that I do wonder about is the EFL Insolvency Policy.

We see snippets online and we saw Kieran Maguire posting snippets of it a few weeks ago but it's not great Governance to have the bulk of the policy seemingly hidden from public view. Those snippets that Kieran posted on Twitter were not findable through regular searching etc.

Certainly not on the EFL website, nor did it materialise via e.g. key word searches.

I don't understand where Kieran sourced the info from- it certainly doesn't seem to be easily findable or in the clearly public domain. Commercial confidentiality? Can't think of many reasons why the overall finer details of their Insolvency Policy shouldn't be readily accessible.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

11 minutes ago, Derby_Ram said:

Batting eyelids at DCC bailing out Morris - I wouldn't expect you to (it's not your club and there's no need) but you're not looking properly. We don't like it. But if it eliminates MM from the picture you suck it up. 

I wouldn't expect Derby fans to be bothered, particularly those who quickly switched the blame to the EFL thus letting MM off the hook.

Presumably local taxpayers in Derby will suck it up as too there seems to be no obvious controversy about it.

That doesn't mean there aren't matters of principle and precedent applying to the game as a whole that others, particularly other club owners, aren't allowed to raise.

CK is going to have to do business with other clubs (including signing 40 players it seems!) so he'd probably be wise not to tell them to suck it up.

[Derby_Ram]

6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

In which case, some kinda formula to subtract central government funding to Derby on a pro rata basis linked to the HMRC debt. Central funding does go to councils, some % of clawback or withhold in terms of the HMRC Derby debt given that the council would be complicit in a dubious bailout of a club who owe the Government £36m. 

If this is in place already, for sure. But if we're creating things to fix broken loopholes then no. You put something in place to address it in future. You've been a firm advocate the last few weeks of EFL sticking to their rules and processes re Derby. We can't suddenly turn around and say the EFL/HMRC/any other interested party puts things in place now as we don't like the outcome. We'd be imminently selling PP to ourselves for the umpteenth time if that could happen!

4 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

Still not convinced your man has the money to do the deal though , I guess we will know on Monday, or you will see Ashely pick up the remains. You not going to die yet ! It just depends where you start the  come back from. That journey in itself could also be fun. 

The EFL have just released a statement which surprise surprise is less than clear. I can't quite work out if they're satisfied with his funding but have other things to resolve, or things to resolve on the funding. I do think MA still has a part to play.

The journey could well be fun. Next season I'm looking forward to the tour of places we've not been to for a long time/ever. It's years 2, 3 and beyond I'm less looking forward to!

[Derby_Ram]

2 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I wouldn't expect Derby fans to be bothered, particularly those who quickly switched the blame to the EFL thus letting MM off the hook.

Presumably local taxpayers in Derby will suck it up as too there seems to be no obvious controversy about it.

That doesn't mean there aren't matters of principle and precedent applying to the game as a whole that others, particularly other club owners, aren't allowed to raise.

CK is going to have to do business with other clubs (including signing 40 players it seems!) so he'd probably be wise not to tell them to suck it up.

We are bothered though. We don't like it. We think it's abhorrent. We know it let's MM off the hook. But if it gets rid of him that's what we suck up.

And CK should be treated like a God in boardrooms up and down the country if he gets it over the line for removing MM from the equation. That has to be worth a load of Man U kids free of charge at least 

[Mr Popodopolous]

One for @Hxj before I forget.

Didn't you say a while back that you had heard the money would run out not long after the Cardiff game. Derby fans certainly found that amusing over on their forum!

Not quite so amusing now? Although the Preferred Bidder being in situ helps matters as vs then.

[Mr Popodopolous]

The original post

The Derby reaction

1,146 and 1,147 of the admin thread. Granted a preferred bidder has improved matters but the initial claim that was scoffed at about money running out following the Cardiff game certainly has more credence than they considered at the time.

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/38855-the-administration-thread/page/1147/

Part 2 seems to have moved along- as in it surely exceeds the MSD bid now what Kirchner is offering?

Edited May 5, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Hxj]

14 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Didn't you say a while back that you had heard the money would run out not long after the Cardiff game. Derby fans certainly found that amusing over on their forum!

I did, my information was that the money would run out by next Monday, and that there were problems with the ground ownership and the business plan.  All have now been confirmed by Mr Kirchner himself. 

I don't mind being mocked on dcfcfans, it's not their fault.

[Hxj]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Part 2 seems to have moved along- as in it surely exceeds the MSD bid now what Kirchner is offering?

My understanding at the time still seems to be correct.

[Mr Popodopolous]

14 minutes ago, Hxj said:

I did, my information was that the money would run out by next Monday, and that there were problems with the ground ownership and the business plan.  All have now been confirmed by Mr Kirchner himself. 

I don't mind being mocked on dcfcfans, it's not their fault.

You clearly have some quite good info. Part 2 sounds relatively intriguing. -15 pts and Insolvency Policy vs what Kirchner is offering?

As for the actual stadium purchase that is planned itself, I wonder if it might be paid for out of council reserves- a guaranteed ROI if done on commercial lines.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Midred]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Ground share to undermine Morris I’m in favour of.

No talk of sharing with Forest then? 

[Hxj]

21 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

You clearly have some quite good info.

I have some good contacts.

I also understand that issues have now been raised over the purchase of the ground by the City Council and whether or not that amounts to 'State Aid'.  'State Aid' is significantly restricted where the recipient of the benefit is an 'Undertaking in Difficulty'.  Benefit is not just cash, so for example a lease at a non-market rent is also 'State Aid'.

Wait until the lawyers really get involved!

Edited May 5, 2022 by Hxj

[Lanterne Rouge]

1 minute ago, Midred said:

No talk of sharing with Forest then? 

Be funny if they shared Meadow Lane with County!

[Hxj]

2 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Be funny if they shared Meadow Lane with County!

Much more appropriate, especially as most of it is painted black and white, and it is was also once owned by a financial manipulator.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Hxj

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, Hxj said:

I have some good contacts.

I also understand that issues have now been raised over the purchase of the ground and whether or not that amounts to 'State Aid'.  'State Aid' is significantly restricted where the recipient of the benefit is an 'Undertaking in Difficulty'.  Benefit is not just cash, so for example a lease at a non-market rent is also 'State Aid'.

Wait until the lawyers really get involved!

I'd assume it would have to be leased at a rate that is favourable to the council- I gave the Plymouth example a while back. 8.5% per year of the purchase price in rent and a buyback option at a bit above the purchase price- but 'State Aid' I wonder? Certainly smacks  of it in some ways!

In these inflationary times, inflation-linked rent would also be fair IMO.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

6 minutes ago, Hxj said:

Wait until the lawyers really get involved!

As you mention lawyers, Kieran Maguire said last week that Quantuma shelled out £145k on lawyers with the intention of appealing against the points deduction for going into administration. An appeal with no hope of success that they didn't pursue.

[Hxj]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I'd assume it would have to be leased at a rate that is favourable to the council

But the real test is what is the open market rent,  We already have a figure £3 million odd a year, see the Disciplinary Committee and League Appeal Panel decisions,

[Mr Popodopolous]

On my more usual level ya boo point scoring bit...

EatonRam is unhappy about the EFL Insolvency Policy but his posts don't follow through so well.

Shouldn't have gone into admin then eh! 

Should have sold some in Jan 2022 then eh, when some seemingly reasonable offers were in situ! Better to get even not a perfect fee and accept the likelihood of League 1 than nothing at all! 

Just now, Hxj said:

But the real test is what is the open market rent,  We already have a figure £3 million odd a year, see the Disciplinary Committee and League Appeal Panel decisions,

£4.16m per year IIRC if we're talking about the same thing.

[Hxj]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

£4.16m per year IIRC if we're talking about the same thing.

I happily stand corrected.

The season ticket issue is a misunderstanding.  An Administrator simply cannot use cash received in respect of future income to fund current cash expenditure.  If they do they might have to repay the sums personally.

[Derby_Ram]

4 minutes ago, Hxj said:

But the real test is what is the open market rent,  We already have a figure £3 million odd a year, see the Disciplinary Committee and League Appeal Panel decisions,

Just over £1m was the agreed outcome post the panel decision in on basis of club only using it x days per year. Remains to be seen if any deal is based on us having full time tenancy.

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Should have sold some in Jan 2022 then eh, when some seemingly reasonable offers were in situ! Better to get even not a perfect fee and accept the likelihood of League 1 than nothing at all! 

This is where you won't be surprised to learn that I do beg to differ .

Honestly, what did selling Shinnie, Williams, Plange, a couple of youth team prospects, and not renewing Jags contract do? Dug the EFL out of a massive hole that's what

No creditors have seen an extra penny because of it, and wouldnt have done had we sold others. All it did is drag the process out and got us to the end of the season when the money runs out and prevented the EFL worst case scenario of us going pop mid season.

This is the extra hidden punishment over and above the -21 that possibly was the thing that did relegate us.

If we'd sold someone extra for £1m in Jan do you believe creditors would get any more money? I don't, I just think what's happening now would happen 6 weeks down the line instead. I don't know how feasible it is but it's one thing I'd look to change about admin rules going forward - player sales = money for creditors and not just extending this period of lining admins pockets.

[REDOXO]

12 minutes ago, Derby_Ram said:

Just over £1m was the agreed outcome post the panel decision in on basis of club only using it x days per year. Remains to be seen if any deal is based on us having full time tenancy.

This is where you won't be surprised to learn that I do beg to differ .

Honestly, what did selling Shinnie, Williams, Plange, a couple of youth team prospects, and not renewing Jags contract do? Dug the EFL out of a massive hole that's what

No creditors have seen an extra penny because of it, and wouldnt have done had we sold others. All it did is drag the process out and got us to the end of the season when the money runs out and prevented the EFL worst case scenario of us going pop mid season.

This is the extra hidden punishment over and above the -21 that possibly was the thing that did relegate us.

If we'd sold someone extra for £1m in Jan do you believe creditors would get any more money? I don't, I just think what's happening now would happen 6 weeks down the line instead. I don't know how feasible it is but it's one thing I'd look to change about admin rules going forward - player sales = money for creditors and not just extending this period of lining admins pockets.

Am I missing something? The players got paid the ongoing suppliers got paid the staff footballing or non footballing got paid. I thought that was why the players had to be sold for current cash flow purposes and to comply with the rules that effectively say that? 

[Mr Popodopolous]

27 minutes ago, Derby_Ram said:

Just over £1m was the agreed outcome post the panel decision in on basis of club only using it x days per year. Remains to be seen if any deal is based on us having full time tenancy.

£1.1m per year based on 100 days usage by/allocation to the Football club IIRC. However the fair rent for a transaction price was £4.16m per year but this included Club DCFC and Stadia DCFC. This would have been a consolidated rather than a club specific rent although not sure it'd be as high as £4.16m. Remember such companies are, would be consolidated for P&S purposes.

Let's say club £1.1m per year, Club DCFC £1m per year and Stadia DCFC £1m per year.

Club accounts=£1.1m but Sevco 5112=£3.1m per year. That's the important FFP number.

27 minutes ago, Derby_Ram said:

This is where you won't be surprised to learn that I do beg to differ .

Honestly, what did selling Shinnie, Williams, Plange, a couple of youth team prospects, and not renewing Jags contract do? Dug the EFL out of a massive hole that's what

No creditors have seen an extra penny because of it, and wouldnt have done had we sold others. All it did is drag the process out and got us to the end of the season when the money runs out and prevented the EFL worst case scenario of us going pop mid season.

This is the extra hidden punishment over and above the -21 that possibly was the thing that did relegate us.

If we'd sold someone extra for £1m in Jan do you believe creditors would get any more money? I don't, I just think what's happening now would happen 6 weeks down the line instead. I don't know how feasible it is but it's one thing I'd look to change about admin rules going forward - player sales = money for creditors and not just extending this period of lining admins pockets.

Not a bad idea that change but IIRC Buchanan, Knight, Lawrence and Sibley all attracted interest.

Would have reduced the amounts required in terms of MSD loans at the very least. What about Football Creditors?

Yes, Derby crashing out of the League mid-season would have been in nobody's interests. Would have caused absolute chaos although arguably if Mel Morris was declining to provide the correct financial guarantees pre August 2021 they shouldn't have been allowed to begin the season anyway. Nixon did suggest that Mel Morris was not providing assurances last August.

Losing some of them for nothing wouldn't help either mind you, but Quantuma perhaps gambled that the Club would be a more attractive proposition staying up.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Hxj]

20 minutes ago, Derby_Ram said:

Just over £1m was the agreed outcome post the panel decision in on basis of club only using it x days per year. Remains to be seen if any deal is based on us having full time tenancy.

I agree that it was the figured mentioned - whether or not that was a real possibility remains open in my view - I honestly do not know what the answer is.

Would a third party agree to that lease?

[Derby_Ram]

I think you are. It's all come to a head now because the cash runs out now. If the cash ran out last Jan it would have all come to a head then. If the cash didn't run out for another couple of months I don't think we'd be where we are tonight with a preferred bidder, an EFL statement, and a potentially imminent takeover.

(sorry - in reply to redoxo)

Edited May 5, 2022 by Derby_Ram

[Mr Popodopolous]

Was the £1.1m actually agreed by the EFL? It's far from crystal clear from the varied docs.

IDC 1 states the Fair Value requirement for Club DCFC and Stadia DCFC rent wise to comply with the P&S rules.

[Derby_Ram]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Would have reduced the amounts required terms of MSD loans at the very least. What about Football Creditors?

Yes, Derby crashing out of the League mid-season would have been in nobody's interests. Would have caused absolute chaos although arguably if Mel Morris was declining to provide the correct financial guarantees pre August 2021 they shouldn't have been allowed to begin the season anyway.

By virtue of not selling players I also don't think additional MSD loans should have been taken. This trickle of money into the club has prolonged everything. A hard deadline without small transfer fees + MSD loans and I think we'd have been in pretty much the same position as we are today, just months ago. Time, or lack of, is great for focusing the minds.

4 minutes ago, Hxj said:

I agree that it was the figured mentioned - whether or not that was a real possibility remains open in my view - I honestly do not know what the answer is.

Would a third party agree to that lease?

Yes *cough DCC cough*

[Davefevs]

In summary:

- CK appears to have bought the club out of administration, I.e. met the requirements to do so legally

- now needs to satisfy EFL rules re membership, points deductions etc.

Realky interested in the HMRC repayment.

[Mr Popodopolous]

EFL P&S rules. Add in a paper Fair Value rent along the lines of IDC 1 substitute for the actual if required.

Don't transfer the Golden Share if Kirchner gets uppity. I believe the hard line should continue.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Potentially interesting line in the EFL statement which I didn't  appreciate at first.

"Finalising the terms of a Membership agreement".

Wonder what terms that might entail. Presumably if Kirchner doesn't like the terms, Derby might have a problem? 4.7.5 I saw referenced on the Derby forum in the past.

[Hxj]

1 hour ago, Derby_Ram said:

Yes *cough DCC cough*

[Mr Popodopolous]

I'm sure a few of them on DCFCFans have the memory of goldfish when it comes to this saga and solely this issue.

1) If Mike Ashley took over the club would still be bound by an EFL Business Plan for x years, 2 or maybe even 3 in limited circs. They still couldn't splash cash quickly.

2) If they were kicked down to League 2 due to Insolvency I an sure that the EFL would impose very strong conditions as the quid pro quo for such a generous gesture. Again no early cash splashing.

[The Constant Rabbit]

Sorry to ask a thick question - and I have to say, the knowledge of some on here is amazing - so thanks for the info.

Also to Derby Ram for being so calm about the situation of his beloved club

 

My question @Mr Popodopolous @Hxj @Derby_Ram How much is CK worth (as in free funds to actually spend - not assets like buildings etc to sell for funds or borrow against) - actual money to spend on DCFC?

I read somewhere (and I can't remember where hence the question) that it was somewhere around £60 million?

 

Surely that is nowhere near enough to pay debts, wages, and sign new players, let alone rent and day to day costs?

Second question (sorry) - if CK falls through AND MA doesn't swoop in at the last second to 'save the day' - what is the outcome?

Is it liquidation, starting in L1 with a huge points deduction or further relegation to L2?

 

Lastly - if CK fails to find funds - when does this all stop - when is the day a final decision is made?

 

Thanks very much.

 

PS: I hope things work out for Derby Fans - I remember us in 82 - I would not wish that on my worst enemy.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I'm sure a few of them on DCFCFans have the memory of goldfish when it comes to this saga and solely this issue.

1) If Mike Ashley took over the club would still be bound by an EFL Business Plan for x years, 2 or maybe even 3 in limited circs. They still couldn't splash cash quickly.

2) If they were kicked down to League 2 due to Insolvency I an sure that the EFL would impose very strong conditions as the quid pro quo for such a generous gesture. Again no early cash splashing.

Is there really an option that ends up with Derby in Lg2?

Isn’t it Lg1 (membership intact) or Non-League (membership revoked)?  What have I missed?

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Is there really an option that ends up with Derby in Lg2?

Isn’t it Lg1 (membership intact) or Non-League (membership revoked)?  What have I missed?

It was mooted as a possible compromise in Jan 2022 by Nixon IIRC, but it feels unrealistic. It would fly in the face of precedent, potentially the EFL Insolvency regs although these are not properly in the public domain- surely a majority or a required majority % of clubs would have to vote on it? No guarantee that they would.

Even if it did though, I see no way that the EFL would just permit them to splash the cash again soon after given such a break with precedent and a bending of the rules. It'd be totally wrong, especially with £36m in public money- the biggest ever HMRC debt for a football club with the possible exception of Portsmouth in 2010...

Edited May 5, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Separate note. Good article by John Percy- an interesting line.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/05/05/derby-takeover-delayed-efl-stadium-ownership-one-sticking-point/

Quote

Kirchner has already provided a business plan and information to fulfil the owner and directors’ test, but the EFL are seeking clarity over issues such as spending levels for next season.

The lower and more muted the better I'd have thought. 2 year Business Plan post admin, advantage gained from offloading some or a good chunk of debt- therefore a strong Business Plan is a sensible solution- it's moral hazard in action. Would also help the club financially speaking as it would compel encourage them to spend sensibly for a given period.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

4 hours ago, billywedlock said:

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/kirchner-stadium-derby-mel-morris-7043997
 

The stadium issue . 

I watched his interview last night on this.  Derby is allegedly quite similar to Kentucky.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just thinking this through, to get it right- if all goes as it might.

1. Derby have an HMRC debt of £36m- that gets cut by 65%.
2. The MSD secured debt- MORE public money. Councils based on a national average unsure about Derby Council, get 23% of their income from central Government,
3. That Council are owed money by the club too...

That'd be bad enough and is indeed bad but there is more of course...

1. While it is not financially directly to his benefit we believe, it gets him- Mel Morris off the hook- for the MSD debt. Possible talk of cross-guarantees, Personal Guarantees etc.
2. The same Mel Morris who is a Derby City Council Business Ambassador...
3. ...Plus who donated to the Tories in 2017 albeit once and at a local MP level.

Quote

This Regulation says the concept of conflicts of interests covers any situation where 'relevant staff members' have a direct or indirect financial, economic or other personal interest which might be perceived to compromise their impartiality and independence in the procurement process.9 Sept 2021

Possible?? 1-3, let alone the morality of the public money aspect. Leader of Derby Council is a Tory of course.

 

With respect to the EFL I was thinking about this and have a starting point for a possible Business Plan for the next 2-3 years- and it needs to be reasonably punitive.

Quote

1. For every £1 of debt waived/gone in this process- ie HMRC, Unsecured creditors etc and possibly even MSD although that was a cross-guarantee so maybe not so much.
2. Could also add in the differential for rent based on IDC 1 vs rent charged on Pride Park.
3. For each £1 of debt waived, that is £1 less that Kirchner/Derby can spend on the side for the next 2-3 years. Simple cash terms maybe the best way although I wonder if % terms could also be valid. That goes for first team and management expenditure, ranging from signings to new contracts.
4. Business Plan reverts to Hard Embargo if he goes against this.
5. -15 still remains on the table, to be activated after 3 years if debt not repaid.

I think both the moral hazard and deterrence factors are important moving forward as well as the actual money.

PPS- nice to see Wycombe win last night. Two more wins for them and justice will be done.

 Wycombe

Derby

Edited May 6, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous