Derby County

[chinapig]

16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Changed his tune.

 

A good point for a timely reminder from the Portsmouth paper The News:

https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/football/portsmouth-fc/andrew-andronikou-the-controversial-figure-who-tried-to-sell-a-sports-editor-to-blackpool-fc-portsmouth-fans-feel-derbys-pain-as-football-league-step-in-during-takeover-frustration-3729590

The man who stepped in to clear up the mess? Trevor Birch, who Derby fans seem to think is out to kill their club.

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 19/06/2022 at 14:06, chinapig said:

True but you will find claims on their forum for example that the P&S rules are unwritten so the EFL is making them up as it goes along and that the EFL insolvency policy is not in the public domain. Ludicrous claims like these tend not to be challenged by other posters.

Of course it is all on the EFL website so I can only conclude that those posters can write but not read or simply don't know how to find a website.

But of course if they were ever to find and actually read the documents they would just insist that they shouldn't apply to them because they're special.

I agree with this and the other posts on this page- the only bit I would say is that the Insolvency Policy really could do with more transparency.

The only bits in the public domain tbh are the -12 for entering admin and the limited right of appeal there, the -15 for the 25% or 35%/3 and Football Creditors. Beyond that though it is quite opaque- when Kieran Maguire posted snippets of it in March or April, they were findable nowhere- I looked for them, I did keyword searches- did research for a job at one point or was a part of the role- definitely beyond some basic bits, it seems not to be in the public domain Insolvency Policy wise.

[P'head Red]

https://twitter.com/BBCSport/status/1538860953265111042?t=nHGtBI9adqD53-qTXsOuoQ&s=09

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by P'head Red

[ExiledAjax]

5 minutes ago, P'head Red said:

https://twitter.com/BBCSport/status/1538860953265111042?t=nHGtBI9adqD53-qTXsOuoQ&s=09

 

Suggests MSD have finally turned of the magic money tap. Must have finally reached a point where they've lent as much as they think PP is worth - presumably £80m,

Why else would Q be out hawking for another loan.

[chinapig]

4 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Suggests MSD have finally turned of the magic money tap. Must have finally reached a point where they've lent as much as they think PP is worth - presumably £80m,

Why else would Q be out hawking for another loan.

And what would the security be for the loan? A guarantee from one of the alleged potential buyers seems unlikely. So projected season ticket income (something other clubs have done in the past and got into trouble)? Such value as the likes of Knight and Buchanan still have?

Looks like another slippery slope to me.

[Davefevs]

22 minutes ago, P'head Red said:

https://twitter.com/BBCSport/status/1538860953265111042?t=nHGtBI9adqD53-qTXsOuoQ&s=09

 

16 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Suggests MSD have finally turned of the magic money tap. Must have finally reached a point where they've lent as much as they think PP is worth - presumably £80m,

Why else would Q be out hawking for another loan.

If they don’t pay wages on time this month (any month for that matter), they face an automatic 3 point penalty as per the suspended terms of the 9 point deduction (Reading have a 6 point suspended penalty hanging over them).

[ExiledAjax]

6 minutes ago, chinapig said:

And what would the security be for the loan? A guarantee from one of the alleged potential buyers seems unlikely. So projected season ticket income (something other clubs have done in the past and got into trouble)? Such value as the likes of Knight and Buchanan still have?

Looks like another slippery slope to me.

No idea. If it's a short term loan to be paid back by a buyer then in 'normal' companies you might be getting into the territory of shareholders/directors securing loans against their own homes and cars etc. Short term loan, short security - it all goes away when the company exits insolvency. It's desperate measures really, but it happens sometimes when there's a need for it. Alternatively, if they don't want to pay it off when they buy the club then as you say you might get a buyer guaranteeing the loan - but ultimately that's another burden that any buyer is assuming for the pleasure of purchasing a basket case company.

Just to explore the idea of securing against a player's contract. Would a lender really secure a loan against a player contract? If so I think you'd have to a) renew the contract, and b) have the repayment term be less than or at least equal to the contract's length otherwise by the time you get to the end of the loan your security is worthless. It would also basically render the player unsellable. It's an incredibly high risk security.

No idea if that is even allowed by the EFL btw. Would they allow a club to be funded by way of a loan secured against a personal asset - I'd hope not tbf.

Just now, Davefevs said:

If they don’t pay wages on time this month (any month for that matter), they face an automatic 3 point penalty as per the suspended terms of the 9 point deduction (Reading have a 6 point suspended penalty hanging over them).

So possibly starting 2022/23 with -18, only 3 more than they got deducted last season. They'd be relegated again almost instantly. Doubt the bookies would even offer odds.

Ultimately though unless something improves drastically in terms of the squad, I don't see how the EFL can sanction them starting the season. No players, and no money to pay travel costs, hotel costs etc. The likelihood of them completing 2022/23 is looking very slim in their current situation.

[Port Said Red]

Difficult to see who would agree to supply a loan, even at some ridiculous interest rate, as there is no guarantee of even minimum repayments being made.

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I agree with this and the other posts on this page- the only bit I would say is that the Insolvency Policy really could do with more transparency.

The only bits in the public domain tbh are the -12 for entering admin and the limited right of appeal there, the -15 for the 25% or 35%/3 and Football Creditors. Beyond that though it is quite opaque- when Kieran Maguire posted snippets of it in March or April, they were findable nowhere- I looked for them, I did keyword searches- did research for a job at one point or was a part of the role- definitely beyond some basic bits, it seems not to be in the public domain Insolvency Policy wise.

From the point of view of a supporter of an affected club I would suggest the EFL's recent statement tells you all you need to know:

No insolvent Club has an absolute right to continue in membership, and on entering insolvency a Club is  served with a Notice of Withdrawal of the membership (currently suspended). The EFL’s Insolvency Policy  provides guidance on how the EFL will address issues that might arise with a Club in administration. The  aims of the Policy are to try and ensure a continuation of a football Club, the settlement of all football debts  and the satisfaction of creditors. If a buyer cannot be found who can meet the requirements for continued  membership, then the Club may liquidate, and its membership withdrawn. The Policy provides discretion  for the EFL Board as to how to deal with any particular Club and does not cover every eventuality.  

This reserves the right to review and amend the procedures for each individual case in line with the  League’s Articles of Association and Regulations.  

Part of the League’s rationale for requiring the settlement of creditors is to preserve competition integrity.  The Policy, and associated regulations, have been agreed by Clubs and seek to act as a disincentive to  individuals from running Clubs in such a way that they gain a financial advantage over competitors and  subsequently rely on insolvency legislation to compromise the unpaid debts incurred.  

Edited June 20, 2022 by chinapig

[Davefevs]

I’m sending the end is nigh as an EFL club.

Would Ashley or Appleby pick them up (with the stadium) for a small amount and start them in non-league.

Morris owned Pride Park would make a nice Baseball Ground for a U.S. team!

[chinapig]

18 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

No idea. If it's a short term loan to be paid back by a buyer then in 'normal' companies you might be getting into the territory of shareholders/directors securing loans against their own homes and cars etc. Short term loan, short security - it all goes away when the company exits insolvency. It's desperate measures really, but it happens sometimes when there's a need for it. Alternatively, if they don't want to pay it off when they buy the club then as you say you might get a buyer guaranteeing the loan - but ultimately that's another burden that any buyer is assuming for the pleasure of purchasing a basket case company.

Just to explore the idea of securing against a player's contract. Would a lender really secure a loan against a player contract? If so I think you'd have to a) renew the contract, and b) have the repayment term be less than or at least equal to the contract's length otherwise by the time you get to the end of the loan your security is worthless. It would also basically render the player unsellable. It's an incredibly high risk security.

No idea if that is even allowed by the EFL btw. Would they allow a club to be funded by way of a loan secured against a personal asset - I'd hope not tbf.

So possibly starting 2022/23 with -18, only 3 more than they got deducted last season. They'd be relegated again almost instantly. Doubt the bookies would even offer odds.

Ultimately though unless something improves drastically in terms of the squad, I don't see how the EFL can sanction them starting the season. No players, and no money to pay travel costs, hotel costs etc. The likelihood of them completing 2022/23 is looking very slim in their current situation.

Thanks, yes of course, the value of a player is actually the value of their contract. Or is it their registration? A pedantic distinction perhaps.

Either way it's surely not something that can be used as security.

[Eddie Hitler]

I think that this is the charge under which Quantuma is drawing:

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/00049139/charges/TpkBicKPVsGIALm1McZp3HHM5mQ

PDF at link below:

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/rvHiOXxNmcqHYgVQeXZd89fd4QVMYAHLvZ7UT4k8EG0/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAWRGBDBV3KCWGUAUN%2F20220620%2Feu-west-2%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20220620T142048Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEBUaCWV1LXdlc3QtMiJIMEYCIQDDBkXxxQtf8CxVGWFdf0jyYXt0D1zCEsBUZLmO%2FQ548wIhAMX6%2BnujvCx3CvaMblavQSqMpU109wigAJ7LTDN8bJ3yKtMECC4QBBoMNDQ5MjI5MDMyODIyIgwwV2LkjL5FcofY0ysqsASiUwlrN9BFZODUVV9EoeAYX4ZxvfbbCnKVIIZUjYvIQnYfWYB1xXaYvtoxZzBgB6b5H3OwlGKWNsls%2BKkWfyCOLqoUQ9Xw8ucuU6bsvoh7bPyfP%2Flei1v3np5lh%2FPQaVMfREQm22ic4BI6PHD7e422wCyZp2tZ4LDF0VynVfuVn8I3ZweAj9aeSzlyDIjpwPrSgydEYgfIP1sm6fNSRGs6cbR3c4c2XTV9VB3W8UE743AH91gJ8BuaAdGtFWuV8dZNkzWE%2FQ%2FOzhTgYf7dhhhgZzKQWdNqbh4G8WZCxIYchcyUu4G6Mq%2BRhMkKFHb30ySOZqfAWEWQOonM7gnwNv7vA9GVqOAhML1ORpBxZQ0YyrjPh0o5yWUwY2MytDjbDx9Vqbe6QlaYM9zV4B22QtUP0wRshW2vjiwoSHqbyNkRkggyMNHUxOqhpNoehjlw5dMYbECiUA%2Fowt%2Bc%2FFjDwkOBVe8EP6TEN77k%2F9PGe4kg2mgHoHFJ34eKQIjGZ3M4%2BL3xe92hkaZhr49VS8dIckjrUH7RirtbEhCU05dgJgPBna%2BoE0SbkcvxrTR%2Bw7ORnaxFtR7oprKvMdTPu7h6tuHKpwjKzH8NWu%2F5uNubrrFv%2FSz3OP2yzyJef7u0HxO%2BARSs2YNdDnfiZX1ccaMR3keFtkM6Kj0Wt0qtQpKDLzXME%2BHMw95xOa4kfABIBRK7nPlS%2BXFt0VICge%2B5%2F1Qyq6si2xWw0vls86wyc5FJdjCNoDDe1cGVBjqoAf08odyegGyPScUGlwxM2mXtKeyxcCUIOPTvOgA6WR08JjUWcPiZ0HxG9NQsELcUnfUkSz5nfCuUDOt7IvHmkt5R2%2BA5kHjP3uEBNXQq%2Bq4nJeN%2FjeD5FRErn%2FVGJ939CPeAWZtxbYf2llTNpMjXcIdPxgGBW0%2BZdSNm3uDQ%2FwkexryEmCkntCHDVz5qEsLbJ5zUgOF%2FTCHe4lZp7a7coc6qgrdTtbfmGg%3D%3D&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&response-content-disposition=inline%3Bfilename%3D"00049139_mr01_2021-11-30.pdf"&X-Amz-Signature=41a95a312704a9c93e854aaa2da4b1eac79cce7110a41836c8306b86b1061bce

 

MSD UK Holdings was incorporated in June 2020 to lend money to football clubs using Cayman Island funds; presumably at very high rates of interest such as the loans Nick Higgs took out for Rovers.

They have $200m of loans outstanding at the year end.

And charge a decent rate of interest.

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/12701276/filing-history

Accounts pdf:

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/3uEP2sEFHcOeSsIY0MQntDjNkXdzrk30KUNI9uw5-QQ/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAWRGBDBV3KCWGUAUN%2F20220620%2Feu-west-2%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20220620T142321Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEBUaCWV1LXdlc3QtMiJIMEYCIQDDBkXxxQtf8CxVGWFdf0jyYXt0D1zCEsBUZLmO%2FQ548wIhAMX6%2BnujvCx3CvaMblavQSqMpU109wigAJ7LTDN8bJ3yKtMECC4QBBoMNDQ5MjI5MDMyODIyIgwwV2LkjL5FcofY0ysqsASiUwlrN9BFZODUVV9EoeAYX4ZxvfbbCnKVIIZUjYvIQnYfWYB1xXaYvtoxZzBgB6b5H3OwlGKWNsls%2BKkWfyCOLqoUQ9Xw8ucuU6bsvoh7bPyfP%2Flei1v3np5lh%2FPQaVMfREQm22ic4BI6PHD7e422wCyZp2tZ4LDF0VynVfuVn8I3ZweAj9aeSzlyDIjpwPrSgydEYgfIP1sm6fNSRGs6cbR3c4c2XTV9VB3W8UE743AH91gJ8BuaAdGtFWuV8dZNkzWE%2FQ%2FOzhTgYf7dhhhgZzKQWdNqbh4G8WZCxIYchcyUu4G6Mq%2BRhMkKFHb30ySOZqfAWEWQOonM7gnwNv7vA9GVqOAhML1ORpBxZQ0YyrjPh0o5yWUwY2MytDjbDx9Vqbe6QlaYM9zV4B22QtUP0wRshW2vjiwoSHqbyNkRkggyMNHUxOqhpNoehjlw5dMYbECiUA%2Fowt%2Bc%2FFjDwkOBVe8EP6TEN77k%2F9PGe4kg2mgHoHFJ34eKQIjGZ3M4%2BL3xe92hkaZhr49VS8dIckjrUH7RirtbEhCU05dgJgPBna%2BoE0SbkcvxrTR%2Bw7ORnaxFtR7oprKvMdTPu7h6tuHKpwjKzH8NWu%2F5uNubrrFv%2FSz3OP2yzyJef7u0HxO%2BARSs2YNdDnfiZX1ccaMR3keFtkM6Kj0Wt0qtQpKDLzXME%2BHMw95xOa4kfABIBRK7nPlS%2BXFt0VICge%2B5%2F1Qyq6si2xWw0vls86wyc5FJdjCNoDDe1cGVBjqoAf08odyegGyPScUGlwxM2mXtKeyxcCUIOPTvOgA6WR08JjUWcPiZ0HxG9NQsELcUnfUkSz5nfCuUDOt7IvHmkt5R2%2BA5kHjP3uEBNXQq%2Bq4nJeN%2FjeD5FRErn%2FVGJ939CPeAWZtxbYf2llTNpMjXcIdPxgGBW0%2BZdSNm3uDQ%2FwkexryEmCkntCHDVz5qEsLbJ5zUgOF%2FTCHe4lZp7a7coc6qgrdTtbfmGg%3D%3D&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&response-content-disposition=inline%3Bfilename%3D"companies_house_document.pdf"&X-Amz-Signature=55eaf191db16bae4b0f73114d678aa70f27b1333b7408419f2e9777cc6bcb782

[Mr Popodopolous]

In terms of players their Retained list actually seems to be fuller than the reported 5.

Granted it is fastracking of youth, they also appear to have somehow retained Byrne and Buchanan through contractual classes or options for another year. Selling some players and fast tracking youth could at least keep the lights on.

Although they have not actually published a retained list on their website or similar which is unique among clubs, something is at least findable on the EFL website.

(o) means contract offered, under 24 I think but player expiring in the summer.

Rather more shockingly, they apparently have offers in for Barkhuizen and a Rotherham defender- how on earth can that be allowed??

Edited June 20, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

I think that this is the charge under which Quantuma is drawing:

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/00049139/charges/TpkBicKPVsGIALm1McZp3HHM5mQ

PDF at link below:

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/rvHiOXxNmcqHYgVQeXZd89fd4QVMYAHLvZ7UT4k8EG0/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAWRGBDBV3KCWGUAUN%2F20220620%2Feu-west-2%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20220620T142048Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEBUaCWV1LXdlc3QtMiJIMEYCIQDDBkXxxQtf8CxVGWFdf0jyYXt0D1zCEsBUZLmO%2FQ548wIhAMX6%2BnujvCx3CvaMblavQSqMpU109wigAJ7LTDN8bJ3yKtMECC4QBBoMNDQ5MjI5MDMyODIyIgwwV2LkjL5FcofY0ysqsASiUwlrN9BFZODUVV9EoeAYX4ZxvfbbCnKVIIZUjYvIQnYfWYB1xXaYvtoxZzBgB6b5H3OwlGKWNsls%2BKkWfyCOLqoUQ9Xw8ucuU6bsvoh7bPyfP%2Flei1v3np5lh%2FPQaVMfREQm22ic4BI6PHD7e422wCyZp2tZ4LDF0VynVfuVn8I3ZweAj9aeSzlyDIjpwPrSgydEYgfIP1sm6fNSRGs6cbR3c4c2XTV9VB3W8UE743AH91gJ8BuaAdGtFWuV8dZNkzWE%2FQ%2FOzhTgYf7dhhhgZzKQWdNqbh4G8WZCxIYchcyUu4G6Mq%2BRhMkKFHb30ySOZqfAWEWQOonM7gnwNv7vA9GVqOAhML1ORpBxZQ0YyrjPh0o5yWUwY2MytDjbDx9Vqbe6QlaYM9zV4B22QtUP0wRshW2vjiwoSHqbyNkRkggyMNHUxOqhpNoehjlw5dMYbECiUA%2Fowt%2Bc%2FFjDwkOBVe8EP6TEN77k%2F9PGe4kg2mgHoHFJ34eKQIjGZ3M4%2BL3xe92hkaZhr49VS8dIckjrUH7RirtbEhCU05dgJgPBna%2BoE0SbkcvxrTR%2Bw7ORnaxFtR7oprKvMdTPu7h6tuHKpwjKzH8NWu%2F5uNubrrFv%2FSz3OP2yzyJef7u0HxO%2BARSs2YNdDnfiZX1ccaMR3keFtkM6Kj0Wt0qtQpKDLzXME%2BHMw95xOa4kfABIBRK7nPlS%2BXFt0VICge%2B5%2F1Qyq6si2xWw0vls86wyc5FJdjCNoDDe1cGVBjqoAf08odyegGyPScUGlwxM2mXtKeyxcCUIOPTvOgA6WR08JjUWcPiZ0HxG9NQsELcUnfUkSz5nfCuUDOt7IvHmkt5R2%2BA5kHjP3uEBNXQq%2Bq4nJeN%2FjeD5FRErn%2FVGJ939CPeAWZtxbYf2llTNpMjXcIdPxgGBW0%2BZdSNm3uDQ%2FwkexryEmCkntCHDVz5qEsLbJ5zUgOF%2FTCHe4lZp7a7coc6qgrdTtbfmGg%3D%3D&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&response-content-disposition=inline%3Bfilename%3D"00049139_mr01_2021-11-30.pdf"&X-Amz-Signature=41a95a312704a9c93e854aaa2da4b1eac79cce7110a41836c8306b86b1061bce

 

MSD UK Holdings was incorporated in June 2020 to lend money to football clubs using Cayman Island funds; presumably at very high rates of interest such as the loans Nick Higgs took out for Rovers.

They have $200m of loans outstanding at the year end.

And charge a decent rate of interest.

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/12701276/filing-history

Accounts pdf:

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/3uEP2sEFHcOeSsIY0MQntDjNkXdzrk30KUNI9uw5-QQ/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAWRGBDBV3KCWGUAUN%2F20220620%2Feu-west-2%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20220620T142321Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEBUaCWV1LXdlc3QtMiJIMEYCIQDDBkXxxQtf8CxVGWFdf0jyYXt0D1zCEsBUZLmO%2FQ548wIhAMX6%2BnujvCx3CvaMblavQSqMpU109wigAJ7LTDN8bJ3yKtMECC4QBBoMNDQ5MjI5MDMyODIyIgwwV2LkjL5FcofY0ysqsASiUwlrN9BFZODUVV9EoeAYX4ZxvfbbCnKVIIZUjYvIQnYfWYB1xXaYvtoxZzBgB6b5H3OwlGKWNsls%2BKkWfyCOLqoUQ9Xw8ucuU6bsvoh7bPyfP%2Flei1v3np5lh%2FPQaVMfREQm22ic4BI6PHD7e422wCyZp2tZ4LDF0VynVfuVn8I3ZweAj9aeSzlyDIjpwPrSgydEYgfIP1sm6fNSRGs6cbR3c4c2XTV9VB3W8UE743AH91gJ8BuaAdGtFWuV8dZNkzWE%2FQ%2FOzhTgYf7dhhhgZzKQWdNqbh4G8WZCxIYchcyUu4G6Mq%2BRhMkKFHb30ySOZqfAWEWQOonM7gnwNv7vA9GVqOAhML1ORpBxZQ0YyrjPh0o5yWUwY2MytDjbDx9Vqbe6QlaYM9zV4B22QtUP0wRshW2vjiwoSHqbyNkRkggyMNHUxOqhpNoehjlw5dMYbECiUA%2Fowt%2Bc%2FFjDwkOBVe8EP6TEN77k%2F9PGe4kg2mgHoHFJ34eKQIjGZ3M4%2BL3xe92hkaZhr49VS8dIckjrUH7RirtbEhCU05dgJgPBna%2BoE0SbkcvxrTR%2Bw7ORnaxFtR7oprKvMdTPu7h6tuHKpwjKzH8NWu%2F5uNubrrFv%2FSz3OP2yzyJef7u0HxO%2BARSs2YNdDnfiZX1ccaMR3keFtkM6Kj0Wt0qtQpKDLzXME%2BHMw95xOa4kfABIBRK7nPlS%2BXFt0VICge%2B5%2F1Qyq6si2xWw0vls86wyc5FJdjCNoDDe1cGVBjqoAf08odyegGyPScUGlwxM2mXtKeyxcCUIOPTvOgA6WR08JjUWcPiZ0HxG9NQsELcUnfUkSz5nfCuUDOt7IvHmkt5R2%2BA5kHjP3uEBNXQq%2Bq4nJeN%2FjeD5FRErn%2FVGJ939CPeAWZtxbYf2llTNpMjXcIdPxgGBW0%2BZdSNm3uDQ%2FwkexryEmCkntCHDVz5qEsLbJ5zUgOF%2FTCHe4lZp7a7coc6qgrdTtbfmGg%3D%3D&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&response-content-disposition=inline%3Bfilename%3D"companies_house_document.pdf"&X-Amz-Signature=55eaf191db16bae4b0f73114d678aa70f27b1333b7408419f2e9777cc6bcb782

Thanks- they'd probably add it to that then? Secured against Training Ground.

Which in itself raises a q as my understanding is that while Derby own the buildings for the Training Ground,, Academy etc the land is on a long term lease owned by someone else- local land owners perhaps?? How would that impact on security or enforceability.

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

In terms of players their Retained list actually seems to be fuller than the reported 5.

Granted it is fastracking of youth, they also appear to have somehow retained Byrne and Buchanan through contractual classes or options for another year. Selling some players and fast tracking youth could at least keep the lights on.

Although they have not actually published a retained list on their website or similar which is unique among clubs, something is at least findable on the EFL website.

(o) means contract offered, under 24 I think but player expiring in the summer.

Rather more shockingly, they apparently have offers in for Barkhuizen and a Rotherham defender- how on earth can that be allowed??

Buchanan and his agent are disputing that his option has been exercised.

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Buchanan and his agent are disputing that his option has been exercised.

Thanks. I'd also add Werder Bremen are keen or have been keen on him and as we know pre-contract options can be put in place from January for foreign clubs over here and vice versa with us and foreign clubs...could a pre-contract from a patently solvent club trump some kind of option that may or may not have been exercised from one who have not released accounts for 3 years and are in admin? Seems like a question for FIFA's transfer committee or something.

Does seem strange tbh that options can be triggered or exercised when under a multi layered Embargo including administration. Only justification I can see is if the player is to be quickly sold the following season to help with funding,

Edited June 20, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Hxj]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Buchanan and his agent are disputing that his option has been exercised.

I understand that they have seen an opportunity to come to an advantageous settlement given the dire need for cash.

[chinapig]

Just now, Davefevs said:

Buchanan and his agent are disputing that his option has been exercised.

Yet surely Rooney (and indeed Derby fans) said all the players were desperate to stay at the club? Anybody would think it was a sinking ship.

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Thanks. I'd also add Werder Bremen are keen or have been keen on him and as we know pre-contract options can be put in place from January for foreign clubs over here and vice versa with us and foreign clubs...could a pre-contract from a patently solvent club trump some kind of option that may or may not have been exercised from one who have not released accounts for 3 years and are in admin? Seems like a question for FIFA's transfer committee or something.

Does seem strange tbh that options can be triggered or exercised when under a multi layered Embargo including administration. Only justification I can see is if the player is to be quickly sold the following season to help with funding,

You can re-contract club developed players within the limits of the embargo.

[SBB]

At this point I’m more concerned about the future of this thread than I am Derby, it’s been a bloody good read. 

[NcnsBcfc]

23 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Buchanan and his agent are disputing that his option has been exercised.

Ebosele has gone to Udinese hasn't he?

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Ebosele has gone to Udinese hasn't he?

Signed a pre-contract….which of course may never make it out the drawer!!!  But, yes, expect that to happen on 1/7.

[NcnsBcfc]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Signed a pre-contract….which of course may never make it out the drawer!!!  But, yes, expect that to happen on 1/7.

So the 8 (O)'s might disappear quickly after the 1st July then.

I wonder how many of the remaining players will exercise their right to terminate their contracts if they don't get paid again? A few there that will have no problems finding new clubs.

[chinapig]

On 18/06/2022 at 13:37, chinapig said:

Looks like there could be a joint bid to stop Ashley. Also the EFL is prepared to wait  beyond Thursday when the fixtures are published. Which Derby fans will find a way of claiming is all part of the conspiracy against them no doubt.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/derby-takeover-latest-mike-ashley-27267532

Radio Derby are now reporting that this is not true and that Appleby is "continuing to launch his own pursuit of a deal for the Rams..." Whatever that means.

[Eddie Hitler]

56 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Thanks- they'd probably add it to that then? Secured against Training Ground.

Which in itself raises a q as my understanding is that while Derby own the buildings for the Training Ground,, Academy etc the land is on a long term lease owned by someone else- local land owners perhaps?? How would that impact on security or enforceability.

 

The investment that they have made there in the training ground, faclities and football centre suggests that the land is held on a very long lease.

I have seen leases of 999 years but I'm not suggesting that!  Maybe 75 - 100 years.  Which would mean that it had decent value for a long time to come.

These are the two relevant deeds if anyone has a Land Registry account.

 

Edit: best information that I could find:

Q) You said there is a long lease on Moor Farm [the training ground]. A long lease from whom, who technically owns the Moor Farm Training Ground?

Carl Jackson: It is a local landed family and we will be engaging with those people very shortly.

 

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/derby-county-efl-administrators-points-5990668

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by Eddie Hitler

[Hxj]

Let's cut the rubbish on bids.

There are none.

Any potential discussions are at a number at a point where the -15 would be a good outcome.

There is a big salary liability in 10 days, bigger than normal as there are end of contract and end of year bonuses.

There is also a bigger than normal PAYE/NIC liability on 22 July, not only the tax/NIC on the enhanced June pay, but also the NIC liability on the taxable benefits provided which are generally vast due to Agents Fees and the like.

Currently there is no cash to pay any of the above.

Most of the established first team players are out looking for new deals elsewhere.  Yes they are desperate to stay, but a new championship contract will be sadly more appealing, and unfortunately they have liabilities and WAGs and kids to pay for ...

If and only if Derby can raise the funds to pay for the above, in reality they will have too few players to compete, as I have said before sadly either a quick short painless death or a long slow painful one.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Hxj

[Mr Popodopolous]

12 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

The investment that they have made there in the training ground, faclities and football centre suggests that the land is held on a very long lease.

I have seen leases of 999 years but I'm not suggesting that!  Maybe 75 - 100 years.  Which would mean that it had decent value for a long time to come.

These are the two relevant deeds if anyone has a Land Registry account.

 

Edit: best information that I could find:

Q) You said there is a long lease on Moor Farm [the training ground]. A long lease from whom, who technically owns the Moor Farm Training Ground?

Carl Jackson: It is a local landed family and we will be engaging with those people very shortly.

 

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/derby-county-efl-administrators-points-5990668

 

Thanks. Yes looks a long lease.

Wondering how that works then- seems messy that?? Like the whole thing really- but if you have loaned cash secured against a property owned by an entity but the land it stands on is a long lease...what a mess!

[Ska Junkie]

They're going to go aren't they?

Sad to see it happen to any club but flouting the rules etc etc.

The two things people can't avoid in life, are death and taxes, it seems Derby have been avoiding one which may well end up with the other.

Sad but they should be treated as Bury were IMHO.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Ska Junkie

[chinapig]

5 minutes ago, Hxj said:

Most of the established first team players are out looking for new deals elsewhere.  Yes they are desperate to stay, but a new championship contract will be sadly more appealing, and unfortunately they have liabilities and WAGs and kids to pay for ...

Curtis Davis said recently that if he gets an offer from a Championship club he would have to take it.

[2015]

If Derby go under that will be really sad because at the end of the day its the fans who lose out and imagine if it was us

[Ska Junkie]

1 minute ago, 2015 said:

If Derby go under that will be really sad because at the end of the day its the fans who lose out and imagine if it was us

I totally agree 2015. It seems the admins have tried so many different approaches and passed so many deadlines without anything concrete. That spells a very unfortunate end for DCFC to me. 

Insisting on such as Ashley is demanding just isn't going to happen so I hope there's a white knight around to save them at the last minute but I fear they would have surfaced by now.

[Monkeh]

I wonder if Ashley wants them to go to the wall then bank roll them as a non league club up the leagues then sell for a tidy profit

[Mr Popodopolous]

20 minutes ago, Hxj said:

Let's cut the rubbish on bids.

There are none.

Any potential discussions are at a number at a point where the -15 would be a good outcome.

There is a big salary liability in 10 days, bigger than normal as there are end of contract and end of year bonuses.

There is also a bigger than normal PAYE/NIC liability on 22 July, not only the tax/NIC on the enhanced June pay, but also the NIC liability on the taxable benefits provided which are generally vast due to Agents Fees and the like.

Currently there is no cash to pay any of the above.

Most of the established first team players are out looking for new deals elsewhere.  Yes they are desperate to stay, but a new championship contract will be sadly more appealing, and unfortunately they have liabilities and WAGs and kids to pay for ...

If and only if Derby can raise the funds to pay for the above, in reality they will have too few players to compete, as I have said before sadly either a quick short painless death or a long slow painful one.

Seems the circus might roll on? Using loans to sign players when no accounts in 3 years in the public domain, an HMRC debt of £36m as well as all the other issues- it is an interesting look not least for the credibility of the League!

Apologies- someone else already posted it.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Monkeh]

Also I'm pretty sure they are only able to sign free players,

And with what's going on who in their right mind will move there with the possibility of not actually getting paid or even a guarantee of starting the season

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, Monkeh said:

Also I'm pretty sure they are only able to sign free players,

And with what's going on who in their right mind will move there with the possibility of not actually getting paid or even a guarantee of starting the season

Barkhuizen and a Rotherham defender might have deals lined up although could be Twitter chat- yes it would be frees, in theory could they circumvent yet further and have Everton and Man Utd loan them some young players at no cost given the Rooney connection.

[CiderJar]

2 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Also I'm pretty sure they are only able to sign free players,

And with what's going on who in their right mind will move there with the possibility of not actually getting paid or even a guarantee of starting the season

A Derby supporting colleague of mine says that they have a total of 5 (FIVE) first team players currently under contract.

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, CiderJar said:

A Derby supporting colleague of mine says that they have a total of 5 (FIVE) first team players currently under contract.

Add Byrne and Buchanan to that given reported contract options (although Buchanan or his reps are disputing this)- but the Retained List shows a number of scholars or young players theoretically available to play too- so no need for new signings while in admin!

Suggested in that BBC article too that rules need to be changed to allow them to sign players too. A good compromise might be get all of your financials in to the EFL up to last season- all done in the correct format- and we can discuss.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Monkeh]

12 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Add Byrne and Buchanan to that given reported contract options (although Buchanan or his reps are disputing this)- but the Retained List shows a number of scholars or young players theoretically available to play too- so no need for new signings while in admin!

Suggested in that BBC article too that rules need to be changed to allow them to sign players too. A good compromise might be get all of your financials in to the EFL up to last season- all done in the correct format- and we can discuss.

I'm pretty sure the rules around this is they can sign unattached players to make up a squad of 23 +2 goalkeepers,

My main point is what player in their right mind will go there with all the uncertainty 

[Davefevs]

Just now, Monkeh said:

I'm pretty sure the rules around this is they can sign unattached players to make up a squad of 23 +2 goalkeepers,

My main point is what player in their right mind will go there with all the uncertainty 

Within agreed parameters set by EFL…parameters we don’t know….but I’d be amazed if they let Derby register any new players at this point.

[Bristol Rob]

20 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Barkhuizen and a Rotherham defender might have deals lined up although could be Twitter chat- yes it would be frees, in theory could they circumvent yet further and have Everton and Man Utd loan them some young players at no cost given the Rooney connection.

Be surprised if Utd or Everton want to send players, even as a favour.

'What did you learn this week?'

'Well, on the pitch, 3 new corner routines, and the importance of tracking back, off the pitch, a lady who works in the kitchen is about to be made homeless because she hasn't been paid in weeks. Can I come home?'.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Within agreed parameters set by EFL…parameters we don’t know….but I’d be amazed if they let Derby register any new players at this point.

Agreed. They actually in fact wanted to retain and add to their squad in January which I imagine caused a lot of anger among other clubs to say the least. They can fall back on young players and scholars and only then should signings  under very strict limits be considered if they need 2-3 more IMO.- maybe make it conditional on compliance with some regulations.

[chinapig]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Within agreed parameters set by EFL…parameters we don’t know….but I’d be amazed if they let Derby register any new players at this point.

I would have thought the minimum requirement before they can sign players would be proof of funding sufficient to ensure they can complete the season.

A loan to pay the June wages doesn't cut it at all.

[Curr Avon]

43 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

They're going to go aren't they?

Sad to see it happen to any club but flouting the rules etc etc.

The two things people can't avoid in life, are death and taxes, it seems Derby have been avoiding one which may well end up with the other.

Sad but they should be treated as Bury were IMHO.

How long until we see the book: Derby County: (Yet Another) Warning From History

or maybe: Ram, Hell, Thank You Mel!!

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by Curr Avon

[chinapig]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agreed. They actually in fact wanted to retain and add to their squad in January which I imagine caused a lot of anger among other clubs to say the least. They can fall back on young players and scholars and only then should signings  under very strict limits be considered if they need 2-3 more IMO.- maybe make it conditional on compliance with some regulations.

Aren't there limits on the number of games scholars can play in a given period though?

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I would have thought the minimum requirement before they can sign players would be proof of funding sufficient to ensure they can complete the season.

A loan to pay the June wages doesn't cut it at all.

Totally agree, but is that stopping Quantuma from trying?

Nixon just said if it comes with a guarantee of funding for the season. Think based on that tweet Quantuma's plan is to get a loan in order to fund June wages, fund putting season tickets on sale and then sign players with some revenue streams- how you can sell season tickets in their position- well it is unusual?

4 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Aren't there limits on the number of games scholars can play in a given period though?

Are there? Can be upgraded I read somewhere- will be honest not too familiar with that side of things.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I would have thought the minimum requirement before they can sign players would be proof of funding sufficient to ensure they can complete the season.

A loan to pay the June wages doesn't cut it at all.

Yes, EFL are pushing for that.  Starting to come to a head me thinks.

[chinapig]

11 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Are there? Can be upgraded- will be honest not too familiar with that side of things.

I seem to recall it was an issue for Bolton who were playing kids until their problems were sorted. Not allowed to play two games a week or some such.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Looking at how it it stumbling along, do we think that even if the funding for the season and the roadmap out somehow materialises, that Quantuma will even be able to hit the March 2023 final final deadline to get a compliant takeover over the line?

It's about halfway into the period given it was mid-late September 2021- and that in itself creates a potential issue as no EFL club can be in admin for more than 18 months- and if it came to that, both the top end and bottom end of League 1 could be thrown into disarray if Derby were suspended/ejected during March 2023, results, remaining fixtures and seasonal record expunged etc.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Bristol Rob]

How will the administrator get paid if they have sold everything and none of the people supposedly waiting in the wings think they have done a good job and don't think they offer anything like fair value?

[Midred]

2 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

How will the administrator get paid if they have sold everything and none of the people supposedly waiting in the wings think they have done a good job and don't think they offer anything like fair value?

Oh dear.....

[Mr Popodopolous]

Dunno if this has been posted but Supporters Groups are now asking Kwasi Kwarteng to intervene.

https://ramstrust.org.uk/wp/supporters-groups-send-letter-to-kwasi-kwarteng/

[ExiledAjax]

8 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Dunno if this has been posted but Supporters Groups are now asking Kwasi Kwarteng to intervene.

https://ramstrust.org.uk/wp/supporters-groups-send-letter-to-kwasi-kwarteng/

He's a bit busy ignoring Staines FC's slavery issue.

[downendcity]

2 hours ago, SBB said:

At this point I’m more concerned about the future of this thread than I am Derby, it’s been a bloody good read. 

Gives War & Peace and Lord of the Rings a run for their money!

[ScottishRed]

4 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Dunno if this has been posted but Supporters Groups are now asking Kwasi Kwarteng to intervene.

https://ramstrust.org.uk/wp/supporters-groups-send-letter-to-kwasi-kwarteng/

That is wrong on every level. No political party should get involved in a situation like this. They are grasping at straws.

[Midred]

12 hours ago, ScottishRed said:

That is wrong on every level. No political party should get involved in a situation like this. They are grasping at straws.

Given up with the local MPs?

[Monkeh]

12 hours ago, ScottishRed said:

That is wrong on every level. No political party should get involved in a situation like this. They are grasping at straws.

It won't happen as that would be state aid which would see English clubs banned from European comps such as the champions league

[exAtyeoMax]

[Sleepy1968]

1 hour ago, exAtyeoMax said:

The driver gets free entry into games as long as he's willing to play in goal.

[REDOXO]

I’m so fed up with this charade. Mike Ashley playing chicken with the league and HMRC knowing he will have some backing in Westminster. 
 

Appelby trying to raise money, but clearly can’t get enough  

The EFL bending over backwards as the pressure on them to throw the integrity of the competition and it’s rules out of the window by MPs and others. 
 

Now the specter of Derby starting the season in admin, again having to get statements to show the club can be funded in administration, with a playing staff amounting to five 19 year olds!

[chinapig]

It seems Appleby's bid is in its "final strokes". So a takeover may be <ahem> coming soon.

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/derby-county-andy-appleby-takeover-7234131

[PHILINFRANCE]

3 minutes ago, chinapig said:

It seems Appleby's bid is in its "final strokes". So a takeover may be <ahem> coming soon.

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/derby-county-andy-appleby-takeover-7234131

Or, as it is also known, the vinegar strokes.

I wonder if it will leave a sour taste.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

I raised a point about the relative lack of transparency of the EFL Insolvency Policy- ie the detail the other day. Found and looked at it again, this Tweet from Kieran Maguire back in April- it certainly isn't in the public domain this stuff! Perhaps it shouldn't be but can't help but think it's not great governance to keep it hidden?

The specifics of it certainly are not within the public domain or easily accessible- section 9.5.7...I looked through back in April the entire EFL Regulations for 2021/22 and this was nowhere to be seen I think.

Maybe it's contained within their Articles of Association or obscure bit of their site or some such - the EFL that is- but it's not readily accessible or easy to find even if it is.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[ExiledAjax]

48 minutes ago, chinapig said:

It seems Appleby's bid is in its "final strokes". So a takeover may be <ahem> coming soon.

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/derby-county-andy-appleby-takeover-7234131

Quantuma are all ready for the money shot.

[phantom]

So this afternoon Ashley is claiming he kept a small number of shares in Newcastle

His name is also now being muted as sniffing around investing in Sheffield Utd

This could get more interesting still yet

[downendcity]

17 hours ago, ScottishRed said:

That is wrong on every level. No political party should get involved in a situation like this. They are grasping at straws.

With £30m+ owed to HMRC, any involvement by the Govt in "brokering" a deal that involved the buyer paying a fraction of that debt would surely cause an absolute 5h!tstorm!

 

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, downendcity said:

With £30m+ owed to HMRC, any involvement by the Govt in "brokering" a deal that involved the buyer paying a fraction of that debt would surely cause an absolute 5h!tstorm!

 

 

 

Totally agree- although Nixon seems adamant that some kind of deal has been done HMRC wise, depends how big a % too doesn't it?

I think they should be paid in full- £35m last time I saw- Kieran Maguire suggested 80%, someone on the Derby forum suggested one of the bids was 50% over 3 years. However yes given Mel Morris donated to the Conservative Party in 2017- albeit once and not a lot- what can be ruled out here.

Ironically Quantuma themselves wrote a piece early into Covid on their website which suggested that HMRC had to be paid in full.

To clarify my point slightly, Derby and HMRC may agree a deal but I am surprised that nobody in the media considers the Tory donation of Mel Morris in 2017 to be of relevance given he still is playing an integral role here. Any Government involvement and...well.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Midred]

22 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Dunno if this has been posted but Supporters Groups are now asking Kwasi Kwarteng to intervene.

https://ramstrust.org.uk/wp/supporters-groups-send-letter-to-kwasi-kwarteng/

Have they tried contacting Nadine?

Presumably she's optimistic that they'll still be available to play in the T20 blast next season?

[Mr Popodopolous]

Two caveats here- I am unsure if this is Scotland specific and secondly it was written before the finalised restoration of Crown Preference came in, during Covid- but check the authors...company wise at least.

For those who are interested. 

https://www.quantuma.com/insights/rescuing-football-clubs-thing-past

[ScottishRed]

33 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Totally agree- although Nixon seems adamant that some kind of deal has been done HMRC wise, depends how big a % too doesn't it?

I think they should be paid in full- £35m last time I saw- Kieran Maguire suggested 80%, someone on the Derby forum suggested one of the bids was 50% over 3 years. However yes given Mel Morris donated to the Conservative Party in 2017- albeit once and not a lot- what can be ruled out here.

Ironically Quantuma themselves wrote a piece early into Covid on their website which suggested that HMRC had to be paid in full.

To clarify my point slightly, Derby and HMRC may agree a deal but I am surprised that nobody in the media considers the Tory donation of Mel Morris in 2017 to be of relevance given he still is playing an integral role here. Any Government involvement and...well.

@Mr Popodopolous If any sweetheart deal has or will be done with HMRC there will be hell to pay in the country generally and not just amongst supporters of other clubs.

IF, a deal in done I would be saying to SL for example, fill your boots and don’t bother paying the taxman you will get away with it as a precedent has been set.

Also, ANY, political party that gets involved in this and tries to influence are utterly insane.

For me time is up - liquidate them.

[Lanterne Rouge]

11 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

@Mr Popodopolous If any sweetheart deal has or will be done with HMRC there will be hell to pay in the country generally and not just amongst supporters of other clubs.

IF, a deal in done I would be saying to SL for example, fill your boots and don’t bother paying the taxman you will get away with it as a precedent has been set.

Also, ANY, political party that gets involved in this and tries to influence are utterly insane.

For me time is up - liquidate them.

This. My VAT is due at the end of the month and I wonder what would happen if I only paid 25% of the bill and told HMRC I was a bit strapped for the rest......................................