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havanatopia

By havanatopia
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cidered abroad

cidered abroad

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

This. My VAT is due at the end of the month and I wonder what would happen if I only paid 25% of the bill and told HMRC I was a bit strapped for the rest......................................

Which would hurt the most?

Hanging, drawing or quartering?

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Davefevs

Davefevs

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Totally agree- although Nixon seems adamant that some kind of deal has been done HMRC wise, depends how big a % too doesn't it?

I think they should be paid in full- £35m last time I saw- Kieran Maguire suggested 80%, someone on the Derby forum suggested one of the bids was 50% over 3 years. However yes given Mel Morris donated to the Conservative Party in 2017- albeit once and not a lot- what can be ruled out here.

Ironically Quantuma themselves wrote a piece early into Covid on their website which suggested that HMRC had to be paid in full.

To clarify my point slightly, Derby and HMRC may agree a deal but I am surprised that nobody in the media considers the Tory donation of Mel Morris in 2017 to be of relevance given he still is playing an integral role here. Any Government involvement and...well.

Perhaps the HMRC deal is all of the money but over 10 years or something.

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CyderInACan

CyderInACan

Posted
Posted

It’s like death by a thousand cuts, this sorry saga. It’s clear they’ve got no money, no ground and no chance. The EFL have been strung along for far too long now, it’s time to put them out of their misery. The EFL’s credibility tank is running on fumes now. 

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Monkeh

Monkeh

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Totally agree- although Nixon seems adamant that some kind of deal has been done HMRC wise, depends how big a % too doesn't it?

I think they should be paid in full- £35m last time I saw- Kieran Maguire suggested 80%, someone on the Derby forum suggested one of the bids was 50% over 3 years. However yes given Mel Morris donated to the Conservative Party in 2017- albeit once and not a lot- what can be ruled out here.

Ironically Quantuma themselves wrote a piece early into Covid on their website which suggested that HMRC had to be paid in full.

To clarify my point slightly, Derby and HMRC may agree a deal but I am surprised that nobody in the media considers the Tory donation of Mel Morris in 2017 to be of relevance given he still is playing an integral role here. Any Government involvement and...well.

I think we can dismiss nixon at this point after the ck debacle 

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Rich

Rich

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Yep. Be made to actually go to their games.

Ahh! I forgot that bit. When I say I support City, I mean that I actually go and support them. Rovers seem to have always had the "supporters" that don't actually go to the games. Used to be found in Broadmead with their scarves on while, Rovers were playing a mile and a half down the road.

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Hxj

Hxj

Posted
Posted
36 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Watch their fans turn on their heroes now.

Already happened, old news on their forum.

Biggest concern now seems to be the two pre-season matches arranged.  Away at Bradford and Stevenage.  Still no acceptance that they will be lucky to paddle in that pool, let alone League One next season.

I'd post a link to their forum, but it won't work.  The Administration Thread - Page 2175 - Derby County Forum - DCFC Fans

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chinapig

chinapig

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, Hxj said:

Already happened, old news on their forum.

Biggest concern now seems to be the two pre-season matches arranged.  Away at Bradford and Stevenage.  Still no acceptance that they will be lucky to paddle in that pool, let alone League One next season.

I'd post a link to their forum, but it won't work.  The Administration Thread - Page 2175 - Derby County Forum - DCFC Fans

I only have a look at their forum occasionally as the entitlement, ignorance of the rules, special pleading and conspiracy theories get a bit wearing.?

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phantom

phantom

Posted
  • Admin
Posted

Interesting post over there:

Just reading what happened with Rangers.  "If a player wishes to object to being transferred to the new owner his contract of employment would immediately come to an end leaving him with no contract, no dismissal and no right to compensation from either old club or new club

"Both the club and the player are then free from their contractual obligations."

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chinapig

chinapig

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, phantom said:

Interesting post over there:

Just reading what happened with Rangers.  "If a player wishes to object to being transferred to the new owner his contract of employment would immediately come to an end leaving him with no contract, no dismissal and no right to compensation from either old club or new club

"Both the club and the player are then free from their contractual obligations."

I wonder if the fact that Rangers were liquidated by HMRC means there is no direct comparison with Derby as it stands though. Yet.

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Hxj

Hxj

Posted
Posted
38 minutes ago, chinapig said:

there is no direct comparison with Derby as it stands though. Yet.

The rules apply to a 'Transfer of an Undertaking' so until 'NewCo' appears agreed, until then the players are bound by their contracts.

The TUPE rules allow an individual to refuse the transfer to a NewCo or to treat the contract as ending through breach of contract on the transfer.

So in reality there is a case.

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Monkeh

Monkeh

Posted
Posted
33 minutes ago, sephjnr said:

From the "good luck with that" files, Leicester City have said they have a preseason friendly against Derby coming up.

To be fair Bolton and Bury did the same only for the game to be called off last minute,

I suspect Leicester are doing them a favour and it's most likely their under 23's

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Coombsy

Coombsy

Posted
Posted

If they are successful in terminating their contracts with the change of ownership then there is less value in the business to warrant a buyer shelling out the cash, and no potential income by selling them to rebuild the squad.

This is possibly the straw that breaks the camels back and forces liquidation.

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Hxj

Hxj

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, chinapig said:

John Percy in the Telegraph is now saying that Mike Ashley has ramped up his bid to buy Derby after depositing £50m to buy the club and the Stadium.

Meaningless PR.

That will be £50 million that covers, his bid for the club including Administrators fees, his bid for the stadium, the running costs for three years, and anything he wants to withdraw after the press release was issued.

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chinapig

chinapig

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, Hxj said:

Meaningless PR.

That will be £50 million that covers, his bid for the club including Administrators fees, his bid for the stadium, the running costs for three years, and anything he wants to withdraw after the press release was issued.

Quite, saying he has £50m in a bank account means nothing more than, erm, he has £50m in a bank account.

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chinapig

chinapig

Posted
Posted

Predictably the BBC headline on the fixtures being announced is:

Rooney's Derby host Oxford United in League One opener.

Though there should be a * , perhaps anybody who might take over the club should just rename it and have done with it.

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Grey Fox

Grey Fox

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

No idea why they are still messing around. Ashley has the money and obviously wants to get them to the Prem so he can sell it on again. Newcastle fans disliked him, but he ran a tight ship, and many fans struggle with that concept. His business is based in Derbyshire, and it is reported he is the richest man in Derbyshire. He is not buying it to close it now is he ? How can the incompetent administrators approve a bid from someone with no money when they have a  billionaire on their doorstep. Seemed more like Mel Morris wanted anyone but Ashely to own the club. 

Whilst I agree with the others '£50m lodged" is just PR , he is basically saying I can transfer the funds today. There are many many more worse owners a club could have. Mel Morris springs to mind. 

They (The Administrators) don’ like him because he has said he will not pay their excessive fee, I’m starting to like the guy

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ExiledAjax

ExiledAjax

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, chinapig said:

Predictably the BBC headline on the fixtures being announced is:

Rooney's Derby host Oxford United in League One opener.

Though there should be a * , perhaps anybody who might take over the club should just rename it and have done with it.

Balliol or Bailiffs?

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t_b

t_b

Posted
Posted

Apologies if it has been covered and I missed it, but does anyone know who the mystery benefactor who paid for May’s wages was? Price of Football podcast comment today that said individual is known to them / journalists but not publicly named. 
Gave the money to CK but has since apparently asked for it back after it all fell through. 

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Port Said Red

Port Said Red

Posted
Posted
24 minutes ago, tommy_b said:

Apologies if it has been covered and I missed it, but does anyone know who the mystery benefactor who paid for May’s wages was? Price of Football podcast comment today that said individual is known to them / journalists but not publicly named. 
Gave the money to CK but has since apparently asked for it back after it all fell through. 

Perhaps it was Nixon himself. ?

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cider11

cider11

Posted
Posted

Now they’ve got the stadium sorted. The same guy/company going to put a formal bid in later today:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/61923835?at_custom4=24669668-F3A3-11EC-95B0-83EF15F31EAE&at_medium=custom7&at_custom1=[post+type]&at_campaign=64&at_custom2=facebook_page&at_custom3=BBC+Sport&fbclid=IwAR26RltRRpAkPP617e2S9Vcex0MFrt0KAZxV3ZQweuVNO4OhNL60SmdNwDs

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chinapig

chinapig

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Good luck to him….honestly didn’t think it would get sorted.

Clowes secured the stadium on 17 June at which point Kirchner had been preferred bidder for something like 2 months.

Let's allow him a month to do due diligence. That brings into question why Quantuma indulged his claims that the cheque was in the post for so long.

What were their motives and why was he unable to transfer the money despite allegedly repeated attempts? Questions we will probably never get the answer to but it looks distinctly murky.

Still, it looks like Derby may be about to be taken over by a lifelong fan. Which went well last time.?

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Davefevs

Davefevs

Posted
Posted
33 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

Well at least that is one less Morris hook for the club . The only asset , as such , was the ground . That is a big step forward . The funding for the season is the next one , and getting out of admin . But a real step forward after so many false promises . Still think they should be looking at a deal with Ashley and share the burden. 

5 weeks to get out of admin, or else there’s another points deduction isn’t there???

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Hxj

Hxj

Posted
Posted
45 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

5 weeks to get out of admin, or else there’s another points deduction isn’t there???

No further penalty.  Just get thrown out of the league if in Administration for 18 months.

Further sanctions will arise if:

1. Exit Administration with unpaid football creditors - expulsion

2. Exit Administration and unsecured creditors paid less than 25%, or less than 35% over three years - minus 15 points

3. Fail to pay wages before 30 June 2023 - 3 point penalty plus any other appropriate penalty for offence

4. Fail to meet FFP for years to 2022 - Who knows

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ExiledAjax

ExiledAjax

Posted
Posted

What!? You mean Sir Wayne Rooney, licensed insolvency practitioner, speaker of truth and scourge of Quantuma, Lord of Derbyshire, Grand Master of the Rams, Lord Protector of the Park and indeed its Pride, and Free Man of Derby...he's left?

I'm shocked.

Shocked. 

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Ska Junkie

Ska Junkie

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

For Rooney to leave, says to me that the takeover isn't as close as I thought and he's hamstring and unable to put a squad together, or he had to take a massive wage cut

That really doesn't sound good for Derby's survival chances at all.

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BTRFTG

BTRFTG

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Hxj said:

No further penalty.  Just get thrown out of the league if in Administration for 18 months.

Further sanctions will arise if:

1. Exit Administration with unpaid football creditors - expulsion

2. Exit Administration and unsecured creditors paid less than 25%, or less than 35% over three years - minus 15 points

3. Fail to pay wages before 30 June 2023 - 3 point penalty plus any other appropriate penalty for offence

4. Fail to meet FFP for years to 2022 - Who knows

And then there's the one the EFL seem to make up as they go.

The EFL supposedly retain sanctions against clubs who exit administration but in having done so have gained an advantage over their peers where secured debt is not repaid in full. It's said this is usually in the form of further transfer embargoes but I don't think there's a hard and fast rule as to how these are calculated. Suppose the New Derby emerge having done (by agreement) HMRC out of £20m. Is there a time Vs cost calculation as to how this isn't 'repaid' (sic)? There couldn't be a blanket embargo as Derby wouldn't have a playing squad with which to continue, so what might be the punishment?

Seems to me the EFL are as duplicitous as some of their members. For example, in response to Derby fans questioning why Derby were denied access to emergency Covid loans the EFL correctly responded they weren't, Derby didn't apply for them. Of course what the EFL didn't widely publicise was for Derby to have applied for the new loans they'd have to have consolidated all existing football related loans AND demonstrated they had means to repay the consolidated loans, which Derby clearly weren't in a position to do. 

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chinapig

chinapig

Posted
Posted
Just now, Bristol Rob said:

Further to the other comments.

I've seen at least one report in the past that he was on £90k a week. Probably overstated but either way under the business plan the EFL will impose they certainly can't afford him any more.

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BTRFTG

BTRFTG

Posted
Posted (edited)

Derby fans will be heartened to learn of Clowes 'Principle Activity & Business Model' from the Holding Group's strategic report: 

"The group’s principal activities are the acquisition of land, buildings 
and property to achieve development sales. Properties are rented out 
whilst the group seeks appropriate opportunities and permissions to 
develop individual properties on the sites on which they are located. 
The group always considers reasonable offers for all of its properties, 
but has the financial strength that it will never be a forced seller. If the 
group considers there is substantial long-term value in a property, 
it will retain the asset until the right opportunity to sell or re-develop 
the property arises and can afford to carry all assets indefinitely"

What might possibly go wrong?

Edited by BTRFTG
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chinapig

chinapig

Posted
Posted

It's worth bearing in mind that Rooney very much committed himself to Kirchner and that Kirchner reportedly planned to have Paul Stretford on the Board.

Paul Stretford is Rooney's agent and has something of a controversial past.

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ExiledAjax

ExiledAjax

Posted
Posted
Just now, Sweeneys Penalties said:

Thought his salary was paid by a betting company. 32Red.com or something. 

When he first signed as a player 32Red happened to sponsor Derby for about the same amount as Rooney was paid. He also happened to wear 32. But 32Red never directly paid his wages.

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Hxj

Hxj

Posted
Posted (edited)

My understanding is that Rooney is not happy with the Clowes takeover.

The Clowes family run a very successful property business, very well, very carefully and very astutely.  They are simply funding the continued existence, there is little extra money for development and cost cutting (probably the Category 1 Academy) is required.

Edited by Hxj
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Leveller

Leveller

Posted
Posted
Just now, Hxj said:

My understanding is that he is not happy with the Clowes takeover.

The Clowes family run a very successful property business, very well, very carefully and very astutely.  They are simply funding the continued existence, there is little extra money for development and cost cutting (probably the Category 1 Academy) is required.

Why would a well run club pay a League One manager £4-5m pa? Perhaps they asked him to walk and he did the decent thing. His £80-90Kpw would pay a whole team at that level, with Liam Rosenior as an adequate manager.

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Sweeneys Penalties

Sweeneys Penalties

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, Leveller said:

Why would a well run club pay a League One manager £4-5m pa? Perhaps they asked him to walk and he did the decent thing. His £80-90Kpw would pay a whole team at that level, with Liam Rosenior as an adequate manager.

Spoke to a friend this evening about this very thing. Friend was a Derby player years ago. He didn't exactly rule out Liam as a replacement 

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Leveller

Leveller

Posted
Posted
52 minutes ago, Sweeneys Penalties said:

Spoke to a friend this evening about this very thing. Friend was a Derby player years ago. He didn't exactly rule out Liam as a replacement 

I’ve now read on the BBC website that Quantuma asked Rooney to stay on. Seems odd, if they’re acting for the creditors.

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