green football shirts to be banned?

[handsofclay]

1 hour ago, RedM said:

I just posted this on another thread in response to someone saying white is a no no due to colourblindness after someone suggested the away shirt would be white:

 

THE QUOTE; "Absolutely no chance given Colour blindness issues. I’d hope we weren’t that insensitive"

 

MY QUESTION; Serious question. Is white an issue for people with colourblindness? I know very little about this condition, never known anyone with it (by that I mean a friend or relative) so I am pretty much ignorant apart from being aware of the obvious red/green yellow/blue used in simple tests. 

If white is a serious issue as I think you are saying, what colour kits are the best options. I guess the condition must vary so much for each individual its difficult to say but is white one of the worst options?

Edited 3 minutes ago by RedM

Like yourself I don't know much about the condition and rather like yourself I thought that white is a colour that is a good choice. As in American sports one team (usually the home team) wears white and in the Euros last year nearly every match one nation were playing in white to help, I was given to understand, with this condition. I understood that the problem is with green kits that look red to those with colour blindness

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, RedM said:

I just posted this on another thread in response to someone saying white is a no no due to colourblindness after someone suggested the away shirt would be white:

 

THE QUOTE; "Absolutely no chance given Colour blindness issues. I’d hope we weren’t that insensitive"

 

MY QUESTION; Serious question. Is white an issue for people with colourblindness? I know very little about this condition, never known anyone with it (by that I mean a friend or relative) so I am pretty much ignorant apart from being aware of the obvious red/green yellow/blue used in simple tests. 

If white is a serious issue as I think you are saying, what colour kits are the best options. I guess the condition must vary so much for each individual its difficult to say but is white one of the worst options?

Edited 3 minutes ago by RedM

OK, so it depends.

When we are talking about colourblindness and football kits what we are concerned about is whether someone with colourblindness is able to easily distinguish the players on one team from those on the other.

So, really any colour is ok - so long as it is distinguishable from the opposition. Even green could be ok, if the opposition were wearing something very different. In that case, white would probably be very good as the number of people unable to distinguish white form green will be very very few.

However, if you wear white when playing away to, say, Coventry or Man City, then there might be an issues as their often very light blue home kits could blend in with the white. There could also be an issue if a team wore a very light pink away to Fulham or Preston.

This is why the recommendation is often that a tema should try, so far as possible, to have one dark block kit - ie our red home kit, one light block kit - say a white away shirt, and then one third kit that is bright or otherwise distinctive - say a purple or a fluoro yellow.

That kind of design choice, coupled with the freedom to wear any kit at any time, should put clubs and officials in a position to really minimise the number of occasions each season where up to 10% of the watching fans have a less than optimal time.

If the rumours are true that we have a green away kit this season...well then we'd better have a bloody good third kit that we wear when away to Rotherham, Boro etc.

[handsofclay]

3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

OK, so it depends.

When we are talking about colourblindness and football kits what we are concerned about is whether someone with colourblindness is able to easily distinguish the players on one team from those on the other.

So, really any colour is ok - so long as it is distinguishable from the opposition. Even green could be ok, if the opposition were wearing something very different. In that case, white would probably be very good as the number of people unable to distinguish white form green will be very very few.

However, if you wear white when playing away to, say, Coventry or Man City, then there might be an issues as their often very light blue home kits could blend in with the white. There could also be an issue if a team wore a very light pink away to Fulham or Preston.

This is why the recommendation is often that a tema should try, so far as possible, to have one dark block kit - ie our red home kit, one light block kit - say a white away shirt, and then one third kit that is bright or otherwise distinctive - say a purple or a fluoro yellow.

That kind of design choice, coupled with the freedom to wear any kit at any time, should put clubs and officials in a position to really minimise the number of occasions each season where up to 10% of the watching fans have a less than optimal time.

If the rumours are true that we have a green away kit this season...well then we'd better have a bloody good third kit that we wear when away to Rotherham, Boro etc.

Cheers ExiledAjax that's really described it well, in fact judging from that the likes of Plymouth can continue at times to play in their traditional green as long as the opposition wear a kit, most likely white, that doesn't cause issues for the 10% with the condition.

This all seems sensible and fair to me and only requires a bit of cooperation and planning between clubs. 

[ExiledAjax]

11 minutes ago, handsofclay said:

Cheers ExiledAjax that's really described it well, in fact judging from that the likes of Plymouth can continue at times to play in their traditional green as long as the opposition wear a kit, most likely white, that doesn't cause issues for the 10% with the condition.

This all seems sensible and fair to me and only requires a bit of cooperation and planning between clubs. 

Absolutely. Plymouth have a long history of wearing all green. That's unfortunate...but ok. They should just make sure they have an alternative kit like all white, or all light blue, or fluoro yellow. AND THEN WEAR IT when suitable. This new rule can help them do that.

I'd repeat as well that the condition is far from uniform. What I've said here and on other threads is a generalised view. There will be people for whom other specific issues are more acute. There are 3 main variants of colourblindness, and within those there are many levels of severity. Like many disabilities qnd conditions it's not a one size fits all fix. That said, simple, easy solutions can really minimise the impact.

[Dredd]

Does pattern help at all? Again please forgive my lack of knowledge on the subject. 
Say for example using the green/red clash, if one team had a green/white striped kit does that make it better?

[Red Army 75]

Being colourblind I struggle with certain shades of certain colours. Brown- Red etc. Never had a problem watching football as the colours are totally opposite. Only one I have ever had trouble with is the Bournemouth game last season 

[ExiledAjax]

36 minutes ago, Dredd said:

Does pattern help at all? Again please forgive my lack of knowledge on the subject. 
Say for example using the green/red clash, if one team had a green/white striped kit does that make it better?

Better, but it's not perfect. Celtic v Plymouth would be better because of Celtic's white hoops, but it's far from ideal.

Pattern is often used to help. Video games have often used pattern in their "colourblind modes".

Personally the one I find bad that might surprise people is black v red. Especially a team like Boro in all red.

Edited June 10, 2022 by ExiledAjax

[RedM]

3 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

OK, so it depends.

When we are talking about colourblindness and football kits what we are concerned about is whether someone with colourblindness is able to easily distinguish the players on one team from those on the other.

So, really any colour is ok - so long as it is distinguishable from the opposition. Even green could be ok, if the opposition were wearing something very different. In that case, white would probably be very good as the number of people unable to distinguish white form green will be very very few.

However, if you wear white when playing away to, say, Coventry or Man City, then there might be an issues as their often very light blue home kits could blend in with the white. There could also be an issue if a team wore a very light pink away to Fulham or Preston.

This is why the recommendation is often that a tema should try, so far as possible, to have one dark block kit - ie our red home kit, one light block kit - say a white away shirt, and then one third kit that is bright or otherwise distinctive - say a purple or a fluoro yellow.

That kind of design choice, coupled with the freedom to wear any kit at any time, should put clubs and officials in a position to really minimise the number of occasions each season where up to 10% of the watching fans have a less than optimal time.

If the rumours are true that we have a green away kit this season...well then we'd better have a bloody good third kit that we wear when away to Rotherham, Boro etc.

That makes perfect sense and was my understanding too about being able to distinguish.

I'm old enough to remember black and white TV's and we managed then when the clubs were sensible about kit clashes!

My theory is as we have a red shirt for home, which I would say is dark, then we are going to the opposite choice of colour for our away. The obvious is white but could be light green, pale yellow, peach, pink etc if colour blindness or kit clashes are taken into consideration.

[Offside]

2 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Better, but it's not perfect. Celtic v Plymouth would be better because of Celtic's white hoops, but it's far from ideal.

Pattern is often used to help. Video games have often used pattern in their "colourblind modes".

Personally the one I find bad that might surprise people is black v red. Especially a team like Boro in all red.

You’re not alone, I find black v red really difficult as well. 

[ExiledAjax]

29 minutes ago, RedM said:

That makes perfect sense and was my understanding too about being able to distinguish.

I'm old enough to remember black and white TV's and we managed then when the clubs were sensible about kit clashes!

My theory is as we have a red shirt for home, which I would say is dark, then we are going to the opposite choice of colour for our away. The obvious is white but could be light green, pale yellow, peach, pink etc if colour blindness or kit clashes are taken into consideration.

Thanks for understanding. Unfortunately, in general those pastel colours you describe prove quite ineffectual. As I said above, it's not a cut and try issue, but for quite a few people they don't work when you play a team in white, or in a darker shade of that same colour. So to avoid that you either need to go full white or you need a fluoro element. As @handsofclay mentioned, the NFL in America has it pretty much sorted. Every team has a dark kit and a white kit and they just always make sure one is in dark and one is white, refs where the black and white stripes. As you mention/allude to, that's a quirk of that sport being invented and set up in the TV - particularly black and white TV - era, whereas our sport pre-dates that.

Ultimately, there is lots of high level, professional guidance published by UEFA and the FA. It's all drawn up in conjunction with charities like the Colourblind Awareness Association - more info here https://www.colourblindawareness.org/colour-blindness-and-sport/. It is not difficult for clubs and manufacturers to read this and I will be straight onto Gould if we have a green away kit and don't have a good 3rd kit..

Another interesting doc is here from 2018 https://www.colourblindawareness.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Colour-Blind-Awareness-Report-of-Fans-Focus-Group.pdf. It raises another personal pet peeve - the use of red/green/orange on ticketing web pages to indicate unavailable/available/limited supply etc, or to indicate different pricing bands. It can be really, really tricky to use that (also see theatre websites, cinemas, any other audience ticket service.

FYI the reason the Prem isn't doing something like this is Sky and the TV companies. - they want certain colours for certain teams, and they want certain match ups approved and then not changed so that they can set their broadcast saturation levels etc. They have the £ so they have the power. 

[Red-Robbo]

Portugal's shirts must be a 'mare for colour-blind Lusitanians...

 

[ExiledAjax]

4 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Portugal's shirts must be a 'mare for colour-blind Lusitanians...

 

Why would a red shirt be an issue?

[Red-Robbo]

3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Why would a red shirt be an issue?

 

 Can't tell if you're joking or not... 

[Sheltons Army]

7 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Portugal's shirts must be a 'mare for colour-blind Lusitanians...

 

For a blue shirt , that’s not bad 

[ExiledAjax]

3 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

 Can't tell if you're joking or not... 

On a digital screen, motionless, set against white, I can see the green. I'm joking. Others though may not see any green at all on that shirt.

But on a pitch, moving, it would be hard for almost everyone...surely even 'normal' sighted people would have a bit of an issue?

This highlights another issue. Kits are designed and displayed without motion, using often false, digital colours, and set against a plain white background. They often look brilliant. Then they are used in the real world and quelle surprise they they look a little different. They get wet, they can't be seen against the busy background of a crowd or pitch, the unnatural light of a floodlight makes weird shadows appear or just changes the colour entirely. 

Charities are asking manufacturers to be smarter when designing kits, and to maybe just try them out on a few backgrounds to check they still work.

[Red-Robbo]

1 minute ago, ExiledAjax said:

On a digital screen, motionless, set against white, I can see the green. I'm joking. Others though may not see any green at all on that shirt.

But on a pitch, moving, it would be hard for almost everyone...surely even 'normal' sighted people would have a bit of an issue?

This highlights another issue. Kits are designed and displayed without motion, using often false, digital colours, and set against a plain white background. They often look brilliant. Then they are used in the real world and quelle surprise they they look a little different. They get wet, they can't be seen against the busy background of a crowd or pitch, the unnatural light of a floodlight makes weird shadows appear or just changes the colour entirely. 

Charities are asking manufacturers to be smarter when designing kits, and to maybe just try them out on a few backgrounds to check they still work.

 

It's not shirt colours or patterns that create a difficulty for us non-colour blind (but no longer in possession of 20/20 vision) folks, it's the contrast in the numbers/names with the shirt.

Bournemouth at AG last season was particularly bad. Black lettering on a dark green shirt. I couldn't easily make out who was who from my perch in Row 34. 

[MarcusX]

On 16/07/2021 at 19:07, Maltshoveller said:

Do you drive a BMW?

Off topic but we’ve just bought a new BMW. I don’t know if it’s a deliberate ploy to make people indicate but the lane assist function is so forceful it makes it almost impossible to change lanes without indicating 

[GreedyHarry]

3 hours ago, Dredd said:

Does pattern help at all? Again please forgive my lack of knowledge on the subject. 
Say for example using the green/red clash, if one team had a green/white striped kit does that make it better?

For me yes. If only one team was striped and the other was one colour that is pretty perfect. Any kind of shape differentiation is always helpful.

[GreedyHarry]

3 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Better, but it's not perfect. Celtic v Plymouth would be better because of Celtic's white hoops, but it's far from ideal.

Pattern is often used to help. Video games have often used pattern in their "colourblind modes".

Personally the one I find bad that might surprise people is black v red. Especially a team like Boro in all red.

Black and red is absolutely the worst because it is so unexpected by everybody else.

[ExiledAjax]

1 minute ago, GreedyHarry said:

For me yes. If only one team was striped and the other was one colour that is pretty perfect. Any kind of shape differentiation is always helpful.

Yeh, Croatia v Portugal normally isn't an issue.

[chinapig]

More detail:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/10/efl-clubs-allowed-to-wear-away-kits-at-home-to-help-colour-blind-people

[PHILINFRANCE]

51 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

 Can't tell if you're joking or not... 

 

44 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

On a digital screen, motionless, set against white, I can see the green. I'm joking. Others though may not see any green at all on that shirt.

I am relieved you replied.

I laughed at your earlier post, but then had the awful thought that you might have been serious.