England vs Hungary

[Super]

Can Scotland hold on?!

[Super]

So poor again.

[The Original OTIB]

Just now, And Its Smith said:

No you aren’t.  You are talking about him in general terms.  I.e. he is so overrated.  That’s not about tonight 

1. He is overrated. Misses more than scores, gets more chances to start than most, same for Kane. Reputation selections over form.

2. Poor tonight.

3. Southgate right to hook both tonight.

 

[Super]

Tammy injured.

[Slippin cider]

Tammy off for Watkins 

[And Its Smith]

Hold on Scotland. Good win if they can 

[Rob k]

Shaw has had a shocker tonight hasn’t he 

[Engvall’s Splinter]

Southgates had a shocker tonight. 

[Super]

Pretty poor midfield were all over the place definitely didn't work. Fair result.

[cityexile]

Poor, and Hungary in fairness unrecognisable from the home match. Far from terminal of course, but well deserved by Hungary.

[Gazred]

Unlucky Faroe Islands!

[Kodjias Wrist]

3 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Hold on Scotland. Good win if they can 

**** the bitter jocks

[Red Army 75]

Thank **** that’s over. Shit game. Positives city’s back Saturday 

[bcfcredandwhite]

Well done Nagy!!!

[Super]

1 minute ago, Red Army 75 said:

Thank **** that’s over. Shit game. Positives city’s back Saturday 

We are at home....

[Gazred]

Fair play to Hungary, they played well. England off form for sure. Grealish off was an odd one and i don't think it did us any favours.

 

[Red Army 75]

1 minute ago, Super said:

We are at home....

Very true . 

[Northern Red]

People regularly ask why Southgate doesn't go more attacking in midfield.

Tonight provided the answer. Hungary are no world beaters yet they walked through the midfield regularly.

[And Its Smith]

8 minutes ago, Kodjias Wrist said:

**** the bitter jocks

No thanks. Some of my best friends are jocks!

[Merrick's Marvels]

13 minutes ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

Southgates had a shocker tonight. 

At home, against a bunch of fascists with nothing to play for, he's entitled to pick one less defensive midfielder and pick an attacking one instead.

The rest is down to the players.

Disappointing result, against an entirely negative opponents, that still lives us in command of our own destiny.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Merrick's Marvels

[ScottishRed]

14 minutes ago, Kodjias Wrist said:

**** the bitter jocks

Thanks for your support.

[RedRock]

We are soooo painfully slow in attacking mode. 
 

STOP ******* knocking around the back. Every time. Simply allows the opposition to set up their rigid defensive formation. Vary it. Just on occasions, attack with pace in a fast, direct forward movement. 
 

Sako what is the point if all you are going to do is receive, pass backwards 10 yards. 
 

No wonder Kane doesn’t get a sniff. He’s constantly surrounded by 3 defenders because they’re giving time to group up around him. 
 

Grealish was the only one who showed any spark and Southgate bewilderingly takes him off. 

[Engvall’s Splinter]

3 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

At home, against a bunch of fascists with nothing to play for, he's entitled to pick one less defensive midfielder and pick an attacking one instead.

The rest is down to the players.

Disappointing result, against an entirely negative opponents, that still lives us in command of our own destiny.

I’m not knocking the decision to start Foden deeper. I’m talking about his substitutions. Southgate’s inability to make the right changes and at the right time, has hindered us previously and will continue to do so.  

[2015]

Well it was poor lets be honest.

Slow.

Took the wrong attacking player off the earliest in Grealish.

We haven't looked good in my opinion since the Euro semi finals

[Merrick's Marvels]

2 minutes ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

I’m not knocking the decision to start Foden deeper. I’m talking about his substitutions. Southgate’s inability to make the right changes and at the right time, has hindered us previously and will continue to do so.  

I think he was spoilt for choice about who to take off!

[cityexile]

Just as an aside, BBC showing Albania v Poland still playing at 90+27. Either that is wrong or that is a lot of extra time!

[Engvall’s Splinter]

Just now, Merrick's Marvels said:

I think he was spoilt for choice about who to take off!

Yet took Grealish off who arguably appeared the most likely to create us something. 

[Reigate Red]

Albania v Poland now into the 27th minute added time - what went on there?

Edit : Finished at 29 minutes

Edited October 12, 2021 by Reigate Red

[Northern Red]

1 minute ago, cityexile said:

Just as an aside, BBC showing Albania v Poland still playing at 90+27. Either that is wrong or that is a lot of extra time!

 

1 minute ago, Reigate Red said:

Albania v Poland now into the 27th minute added time - what went on there?

Was suspended due to crowd trouble and has just restarted.

[BS4 on Tour...]

5 minutes ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

Southgate’s inability to make the right changes and at the right time, has hindered us previously and will continue to do so.  

We’ve made it to the semi final and final of the last two tournaments - is that evidence of how Southgate has “hindered us previously” ... ?!

[Engvall’s Splinter]

4 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

We’ve made it to the semi final and final of the last two tournaments - is that evidence of how Southgate has “hindered us previously” ... ?!

Whilst I appreciate you still have to get there and they are “achievements”, we pretty much had home advantage during the Euros. Until Italy, the highest ranked side we faced were Denmark. At the WC we had a glorious route to the final before coming up against proper competition in Croatia. 

[TV Tom]

14 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

We’ve made it to the semi final and final of the last two tournaments - is that evidence of how Southgate has “hindered us previously” ... ?!

Didn’t watch the game myself but my boy just rang me and from Wembley and said Grealish was taken off after an hour but was the best England player by a distance, typical of some of the very strange and questionable decisions that Southgate seems to make at times

[AshtonGreat]

53 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Shaw has had a shocker tonight hasn’t he 

He's not had the best of seasons so far generally

[ScottishRed]

I am typing this as a proud Scot but most certainly not anti- English, having lived here more than half my life.

Let me be totally clear, I want England to win unless of course it is against Scotland.

I think  Southgate is a very negative coach, the quality and the talent of the front six that England currently have is unprecedented but he is scared, in my opinion to open up. He simply does not want to lose.

In the Euros final you go 1-0 nil then for me, and I have managed at a hugely lower level, you go for the kill, at 2-0 that game was over.

World Cup in Russia the semi was a different story but still too conservative. 

You will get to Qatar, no issue, but the end result will not be a trophy and with the talent available you should be favorites.

[Bris Red]

1 hour ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

Southgates had a shocker tonight. 

Why, may i ask? Southgate has picked the most in form team available to him tonight, he went for a very attacking line - up and the players ultimately didn’t perform. International football isn’t easy these days and as much as your Foden’s and Grealish’s are top players they haven’t got a divine right to be unlocking very organised and resilient defences at will..

[IdliketoRogerMoore]

53 minutes ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

Whilst I appreciate you still have to get there and they are “achievements”, we pretty much had home advantage during the Euros. Until Italy, the highest ranked side we faced were Denmark. At the WC we had a glorious route to the final before coming up against proper competition in Croatia. 

We lost 3 times in that World Cup! 
we were better in the euros beat Germany and Denmark but had home advantage! And similar climates too the next World Cup in a dessert I would imagine it’s warm even if it is in the winter!

Southgate as we know is no tactical magician (not the greatest club record) but he seems to man manage well as has got very lucky with the draw in the knockout rounds!
 
 So in summery we won’t win a tournament with him in charge unless we have another easy run in! I’d say quarter finals and we got knocked out!  

[The Original OTIB]

47 minutes ago, bris red said:

Why, may i ask? Southgate has picked the most in form team available to him tonight, he went for a very attacking line - up and the players ultimately didn’t perform. International football isn’t easy these days and as much as your Foden’s and Grealish’s are top players they haven’t got a divine right to be unlocking very organised and resilient defences at will..

There's only one Foden and one Grealish, why pluralise?

[Red7]

8 hours ago, The Original OTIB said:

Foden’s and Grealish’s

 

8 hours ago, The Original OTIB said:

There's only one Foden and one Grealish, why pluralise?

They're possessives, which is even more wrong than pluralising.

[Red7]

10 hours ago, ScottishRed said:

In the Euros final you go 1-0 nil then for me, and I have managed at a hugely lower level, you go for the kill, at 2-0 that game was over.

Yep, best way to defend a 1-0 lead is to score a second, third...

[Son of Fred]

9 hours ago, IdliketoRogerMoore said:

similar climates too the next World Cup in a dessert I would imagine it’s warm even if it is in the winter!

Winter weather in Qatar is like pleasant summer weather here- 22-25°.....dropping to 17-19° at night...shouldn't be an issue.

[1960maaan]

9 hours ago, IdliketoRogerMoore said:

So in summery we won’t win a tournament with him in charge

Starting to think this more and more.
World Cup, should have been more front foot and Vs Italy IMO they were there for the taking. Bringing players on to take Pens when they were sitting deeper ? The same subs 20 minutes earlier may have won it, but he wants "not to lose" more than win. Now qualifying that isn't so bad, last night was another point to qualification, but in a knock out setting? Madness.

[TwoSheds]

Very poor last night, should have taken Stirling of after an hour, bring  on Tammy he would feed of Grealish. Gareth wrong subs and far too late to win the game. Playing like this against decent opposition will end in tears again. 

[2015]

13 minutes ago, TwoSheds said:

Very poor last night, should have taken Stirling of after an hour, bring  on Tammy he would feed of Grealish. Gareth wrong subs and far too late to win the game. Playing like this against decent opposition will end in tears again. 

His subs have always baffled me. I am also unsure why he loves Mason Mount so much as whenever I see him play for England he is totally anonymous

[Super]

3 minutes ago, 2015 said:

His subs have always baffled me. I am also unsure why he loves Mason Mount so much as whenever I see him play for England he is totally anonymous

Have to agree with Mount shouldn't really be in the starting line up.

[LondonBristolian]

Southgate's achievements surpass those of any England manager in my lifetime. People can say the Euros was an easy draw but we got to the semis without conceding and, for the most part, controlled matches in a way I have not seen England do before.

HIs record - a semi-final and a final from two tournaments - is better than any manager since Sir Alf Ramsey and the culture of togetherness in the squad is seriously impressive. I think a lot of people underestimate quite how good a manager he is. I'd definitely put him above any manager since Sir Bobby Robson and I think there is a reasonable argument for saying his achievements are more impressive than Robson's. (People forget how much we laboured through most of the group games and second round at Italia '90).

BUT the caveat is that he is not quite in the best of the best category. He makes mistakes, he gets tactically out-thought by the absolute best managers and, disciplined as the team is, it maybe doesn't quite get the best out of the players.

Which gives the FA a real dilemma.

If we changed managers, the new manager is extremely likely to do worse than Southgate has done. However I don't think Southgate will ever quite win a major tournament and there is a small chance a new manager will be an improvement and might do so.

Really hard to say whether the FA should stick and twist. Personally I think Southgate may leave after '22 so I'd focus on planning for getting the right appointment then, who can continue with the culture and structure Southgate has created but maybe with the tactical acumen on the biggest stages. 

 

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Southgate's achievements surpass those of any England manager in my lifetime. People can say the Euros was an easy draw but we got to the semis without conceding and, for the most part, controlled matches in a way I have not seen England do before.

HIs record - a semi-final and a final from two tournaments - is better than any manager since Sir Alf Ramsey and the culture of togetherness in the squad is seriously impressive. I think a lot of people underestimate quite how good a manager he is. I'd definitely put him above any manager since Sir Bobby Robson and I think there is a reasonable argument for saying his achievements are more impressive than Robson's. (People forget how much we laboured through most of the group games and second round at Italia '90).

BUT the caveat is that he is not quite in the best of the best category. He makes mistakes, he gets tactically out-thought by the absolute best managers and, disciplined as the team is, it maybe doesn't quite get the best out of the players.

Which gives the FA a real dilemma.

If we changed managers, the new manager is extremely likely to do worse than Southgate has done. However I don't think Southgate will ever quite win a major tournament and there is a small chance a new manager will be an improvement and might do so.

Really hard to say whether the FA should stick and twist. Personally I think Southgate may leave after '22 so I'd focus on planning for getting the right appointment then, who can continue with the culture and structure Southgate has created but maybe with the tactical acumen on the biggest stages. 

 

I think in general we miss having a true world class player….a player that “does it” when needed, a Ronaldo, Modric, etc.  We have good international players, but not truly world-class.

[Northern Red]

34 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Southgate's achievements surpass those of any England manager in my lifetime. People can say the Euros was an easy draw but we got to the semis without conceding and, for the most part, controlled matches in a way I have not seen England do before.

HIs record - a semi-final and a final from two tournaments - is better than any manager since Sir Alf Ramsey and the culture of togetherness in the squad is seriously impressive. I think a lot of people underestimate quite how good a manager he is. I'd definitely put him above any manager since Sir Bobby Robson and I think there is a reasonable argument for saying his achievements are more impressive than Robson's. (People forget how much we laboured through most of the group games and second round at Italia '90).

BUT the caveat is that he is not quite in the best of the best category. He makes mistakes, he gets tactically out-thought by the absolute best managers and, disciplined as the team is, it maybe doesn't quite get the best out of the players.

Which gives the FA a real dilemma.

If we changed managers, the new manager is extremely likely to do worse than Southgate has done. However I don't think Southgate will ever quite win a major tournament and there is a small chance a new manager will be an improvement and might do so.

Really hard to say whether the FA should stick and twist. Personally I think Southgate may leave after '22 so I'd focus on planning for getting the right appointment then, who can continue with the culture and structure Southgate has created but maybe with the tactical acumen on the biggest stages. 

 

Yeah, I think he'll go after 2022. It'll be his decision though, no chance the FA would sack him after the last couple of tournaments.

The "easy draw" stuff is a load of nonsense, frankly. Almost exclusively the domain of people who have to look for any reason they can to downplay British (particulary English) achievement, regardless of the sport.

[Cowshed]

13 hours ago, RedRock said:

We are soooo painfully slow in attacking mode. 
 

STOP ******* knocking around the back. Every time. Simply allows the opposition to set up their rigid defensive formation. Vary it. Just on occasions, attack with pace in a fast, direct forward movement. 
 

Sako what is the point if all you are going to do is receive, pass backwards 10 yards. 
 

No wonder Kane doesn’t get a sniff. He’s constantly surrounded by 3 defenders because they’re giving time to group up around him. 
 

Grealish was the only one who showed any spark and Southgate bewilderingly takes him off. 

England should be keeping the ball and resetting it. Building from the back has progressed the team. The personnell last night lead to slow play. Rice is no pivot and Mings lacks range. Where is the distributor? The outcome was predictable. The patterns predictable up back across etc. 

In regards to allowing the opposition to set up. Hungary were not rigid they slid and screened following the possesion. Grealish dribbling horizontally in the second third and taking multiple touches made it easier for the opposition to screen in lines. It was not fast and direct its was slow and indirect. Playing one two touch would speed patterns up. I would have kept him on but his withdrawal had some merit behind it. 

[LondonBristolian]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I think in general we miss having a true world class player….a player that “does it” when needed, a Ronaldo, Modric, etc.  We have good international players, but not truly world-class.

I agree but, for the first time in a long time, I can see us getting there. I reckon there are four or five players in the team who might* become genuinely exceptional. I think Foden, Sancho, Saka, Bellingham and - although he'd need to develop quickly given his age - Grealish have all got the attributes to become genuinely world class players. It's been a long time since I've said that about an England squad. 

 

*with a lot of caveats that a lot of things can affect a players' development and they also might not.

[Davefevs]

I only watched about 10 minutes of each half.  It felt pretty similar to many England performances.  We are decent but not top-class team.  We will always be there or thereabouts.  We qualify relatively easily for each tournament, which has not been the case in the past (tournament expansion has helped!).

Southgate has done a decent job.  I’ve never thought we looked like winning a tournament in recent times, so his record is good.

[Phileas Fogg]

12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I only watched about 10 minutes of each half.  It felt pretty similar to many England performances.  We are decent but not top-class team.  We will always be there or thereabouts.  We qualify relatively easily for each tournament, which has not been the case in the past (tournament expansion has helped!).

Southgate has done a decent job.  I’ve never thought we looked like winning a tournament in recent times, so his record is good.

I think there are some parallels to the situation Leicester found themselves in under Pearson. He got them to the Prem, but they felt they needed a change of manager to push on and make progress (I doubt a Prem title was expected but you get the point).

I know logically speaking it's unfair to doubt Southgate given his track record relative to other England managers - but I do have nagging doubts about him. I think he should probably get the 2022 WC and then evaluate after that.

 

[TV Tom]

3 hours ago, TwoSheds said:

Very poor last night, should have taken Stirling of after an hour, bring  on Tammy he would feed of Grealish. Gareth wrong subs and far too late to win the game. Playing like this against decent opposition will end in tears again. 

When it comes to making crunch decisions he is hopeless and always takes the negative option.

[Davefevs]

37 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I think there are some parallels to the situation Leicester found themselves in under Pearson. He got them to the Prem, but they felt they needed a change of manager to push on and make progress (I doubt a Prem title was expected but you get the point).

I know logically speaking it's unfair to doubt Southgate given his track record relative to other England managers - but I do have nagging doubts about him. I think he should probably get the 2022 WC and then evaluate after that.

 

I’m kinda with you on that.

[MarcusX]

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I think in general we miss having a true world class player….a player that “does it” when needed, a Ronaldo, Modric, etc.  We have good international players, but not truly world-class.

I agree, for as good as Foden & Grealish currently are, they just can't do it against better opposition or with consistency. Grealish has started to be found out a little at City this year IMO, he's performed poorly in some of the bigger games.

He looks exciting but often runs into dead ends or loses the ball. He does well to win free kicks, but often doesn't get the free kick and loses possesion. I think he has potential to be something dangerous but he needs to improve quickly at the highest level.

I like Southgate, I think for all the criticism about his tactical nouse, he's done a great job bringing that dressing room together. They look like they actually enjoy international duty and because a lot of them have known each other a long time they are friends who enjoy meeting up again - as opposed to in the past when we've had club rivals meeting up and not mixing with each other.

I don't think the importance of that bond can be underestimated, but Southgate does lack something. I agree with the comments about Italy, they were there for the taking and especially in extra time I was so disappointed with the approach to subs and penalties.

 

[And Its Smith]

I hope Southgate sticks with the more positive approach. One poor game doesn’t mean it won’t work with a tactical tweak and better individual player performances

[Roger Red Hat]

1 hour ago, And Its Smith said:

I hope Southgate sticks with the more positive approach. One poor game doesn’t mean it won’t work with a tactical tweak and better individual player performances

Quite.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/oct/13/gareth-southgate-england-ditches-his-cautious-machine-for-something-altogether-more-exciting

[22A]

During the crowd trouble, I noticed some of he alleged Hungary fans were waving Polish flags and one had a red & white jacket with "Polska" on the back.

East Europe team  night out was it?