A tinge of doubt creeping in

[Fuber]

12 hours ago, harrys said:

Are you joking, it could barely be worse, how come Cooper can go to Forest with just 1 point from 7 games and immediately turn it around yet Pearson cannot win a home game in 8 months, like Hughton and most of the older managers around they are way behind the times, I said in the summer that we missed a trick by not going for Cooper or the new Swansea manager

Forest have players with actual technical ability. As for the comparison with Hughton, sometimes it can be right manager right club and vice versa.

We, on the other hand, are left with tryers with no technical ability.

Of whom we barely have a hope of shifting.

Can thank MA for that.

[Gilli74]

3 hours ago, LoyalRed said:

Pearson's CV is strong enough to get a win at home by now though.

 

Should be … Holden still managed 7 home wins last season between sept and feb with arguably the same squad, in an empty stadium … can’t even say Fam was the difference as he only scored 10 all season …

Edited October 20, 2021 by Gilli74

[pillred]

51 minutes ago, Gilli74 said:

 

Should be … Holden still managed 7 home wins last season between sept and feb with arguably the same squad, in an empty stadium … can’t even say Fam was the difference as he only scored 10 all season …

He seems to be above all criticism to a lot of posters on here, it almost seems they can't believe we got a "big" name manager and don't want to be seen to moan, to me he is the emperors new clothes as you say Dean Holden derided and sacked for being useless had a better record. 

[The Bard]

I've no doubts. We're in a perfectly acceptable position imo. Where  most expected we'd be. 

 

We have to accept 2 seasons of mediocrity whilst contracts run out etc. Once he's had time to make the majority of players ones he actually wants we'll be stronger.  

Our recruitment has been pretty decent so far.  2 experienced shorter term signings plus 3 1st choice who represent a clear improvement on what was here. 

 

Another 6 signings like James Tanner and Atkinson with unwanted players leaving will make us much stronger. I think there's a clear idea about what we need which will make recruitment more successful. 

 

The immediate problem is psychological re our home form. We clearly deserve to have amassed more than 4 points from our performances but have butchered opportunities..

[Red-Robbo]

2 minutes ago, The Bard said:

 

Our recruitment has been pretty decent so far.  2 experienced shorter term signings plus 3 1st choice who represent a clear improvement on what was here. 

 

 

Tanner, Atkinson and James - successes. Simpson - failure. King - mixed.

We await further developments I'd say. 

The fact we lured a good young player like L2 and he was able to cut it instantly at this level is a promising sign.

[Dullmoan Tone]

16 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

Ryan Lowe was the man we should have got, but he wasn’t a big enough name for most on here.

His record speaks for himself. 

The trouble with Lowe’s record - just like comparing Pearson at Leuven (?) is that he’s never managed or even perhaps played in the Championship.

I still think you mostly need experience of this division to get out of it, unless you have bottomless pockets or parachute payments. Lowe would have been and still would be a massive risk.

I would also worry his stature would not help us attract the quality loans we need to get up.

[Chicken George]

45 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Tanner, Atkinson and James - successes. Simpson - failure. King - mixed.

We await further developments I'd say. 

The fact we lured a good young player like L2 and he was able to cut it instantly at this level is a promising sign.

Why don’t people add baker and Weimann. They’d both expired their contracts and Pearson brought them back. They are his signings. 
Baker - failure, Weimann - mixed 

[Red-Robbo]

5 minutes ago, Enter Sandman said:

Why don’t people add baker and Weimann. They’d both expired their contracts and Pearson brought them back. They are his signings. 
Baker - failure, Weimann - mixed 

I didn't because the players I've mentioned were new to the club. Those two, simply a deadline expired and well before the playing season started we decided to re-sign. They never really left, apart from on paper. 

[Chicken George]

8 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

I didn't because the players I've mentioned were new to the club. Those two, simply a deadline expired and well before the playing season started we decided to re-sign. They never really left, apart from on paper. 

But they are still Pearson’s recruitment. 
If he didn’t want them he wouldn’t have resigned them and could have used their significant salaries elsewhere 

[brad blit]

8 hours ago, DaveInSA said:

Forest have better players than us on the grass.

I’ve seen so much hyperbole on OTIB in my time lurking in here.

‘We have a top 6 squad on paper’ is the classic.

We don’t. We made a massive charitable  donation to Chelsea, for three players who don’t perform at the levels they’re capable of. 

This is true for a lot of the squad.

Football isn’t played on paper, it’s played on grass.

I think that’s a little unfair on JD who is a quality left back at this level. Granted every player has bad games but in terms of ability he’s right up there for me. 

[Red-Robbo]

1 minute ago, Enter Sandman said:

But they are still Pearson’s recruitment. 
If he didn’t want them he wouldn’t have resigned them and could have used their significant salaries elsewhere 

 

If we include them I'd say on balance NB is of mixed use, but Andi is (on average) a success, although not always given his most effective role.

As others have said, we have to factor in the significant financial constraints Pearson faced. We didn't have resources perhaps to do much else. Better players might have required fees beyond that which were available. Those two didn't.

Although the Leicester old boys' club has been a decidedly mixed blessing, the signing of Tanner - a young, developing player - shows I hope the route we'll go down in future.

All said and done, I have more confidence in Pearson to bring in decent acquisitions than I did in Johnson or Holden. 

[Chicken George]

3 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

If we include them I'd say on balance NB is of mixed use, but Andi is (on average) a success, although not always given his most effective role.

As others have said, we have to factor in the significant financial constraints Pearson faced. We didn't have resources perhaps to do much else. Better players might have required fees beyond that which were available. Those two didn't.

Although the Leicester old boys' club has been a decidedly mixed blessing, the signing of Tanner - a young, developing player - shows I hope the route we'll go down in future.

All said and done, I have more confidence in Pearson to bring in decent acquisitions than I did in Johnson or Holden. 

They are both to be considered as Pearson’s signings in my opinion. 
Based on what they’ve done this season, baker hasn’t done anything of any use and essentially lost us the game last night with his rash challenge and Weimann has had 2 decent games. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Did a strong job at Watford, harshly sacked- but there is an argument that they shouldn't have been rooted in the bottom 3 in the first place, but that's no reflection on him given what he inherted- his job there only reflects well on him in any case. Once they lost at West Ham the die was cast and it was always likely that matches vs Man City at home and Arsenal away would gain zero points, especially behind closed doors.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Red-Robbo]

4 minutes ago, Enter Sandman said:

They are both to be considered as Pearson’s signings in my opinion. 
Based on what they’ve done this season, baker hasn’t done anything of any use and essentially lost us the game last night with his rash challenge and Weimann has had 2 decent games. 

 

I'd argue that Baker had a fairly reasonable game prior to his clanger and even there, is not the only place blame must be apportioned.

Maybe it's because I was a defender, but I always look at the bigger picture than who had the last touch.

In Baker's defence you could ask: Why was our box so under siege? Why couldn't we make the ball stick upfield? Where was our midfield? Why couldn't we even carry the ball out of our half? Why were our subs not bringing the "fresh legs" to do this?  Why were Forest players able to play the ball at will around our final third?

The blame for all that lies with multiple players and, indeed, the coaching staff.

Let opponents swarm all over you and you're going to make a fatal mistake sooner or later. When the penalty went in, my matchday companion said: "They are going to go on to win this." We weren't surprised. For the last 15 minutes we'd look like a schoolboy team taking on the PE teachers. 

The blame for that involves more than one or two players.

[Southport Red]

NP signings

Very Good (at least potentially)

Atkinson

Tanner

James

Baker (apart from the pen, he was good last night)

 

OK

King

 

Jury's Out

Simpson

 

I still think he is the right man for the job but I appreciate that, as each home game goes by, my view gets just a little more difficult to justify.

[RedM]

9 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

I get what you mean but - at the same time - I couldn’t actually tell you who I thought played badly last night. Baker had a disastrous last two minutes but, had the game finished on the ninety minute mark, I think we would have seen it as a decent, solid performance all around.

The issue for me isn’t player performances but the players we don’t have. We don’t have any pacy players, we don’t have any creative players, we don’t have a quality finisher and we’ve run Martin into the ground due to a lack of options to hold the ball up.  Plus the few options we have for running and impetus in midfield are either injured or recovering from injury.

I’m frustrated with how we are doing but - short of spending money that presumably is not there with FFP on players who may not have been available or attainable in the summer in any case - I don’t think any manager would find quick fixes.

Yes it’s really a strange one. Couldn’t fault the effort and yes Baker I thought generally had a good game overall.

I don’t meant this unfairly but I heard regarding injuries he has some kind of mental block in the past. Often he would take a knock and in his head he would immediately believe he couldn’t continue. This seems to have improved since to resigned for us as he seems to be completing more matches now. Just a hunch but maybe he had another mental block and made that rash challenge as the pressure of the lack of a home win got to him?

I can’t really explain what I mean but some players cope with pressure better than others. I’m not saying he should have been subbed, far from it, but the subs we did make didn’t appear to take the pressure off our mentally or physically tiring players. We have no impact subs, to quote rugby.

[Chicken George]

5 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

I'd argue that Baker had a fairly reasonable game prior to his clanger and even there, is not the only place blame must be apportioned.

Maybe it's because I was a defender, but I always look at the bigger picture than who had the last touch.

In Baker's defence you could ask: Why was our box so under siege? Why couldn't we make the ball stick upfield? Where was our midfield? Why couldn't we even carry the ball out of our half? Why were our subs not bringing the "fresh legs" to do this?  Why were Forest players able to play the ball at will around our final third?

The blame for all that lies with multiple players and, indeed, the coaching staff.

Let opponents swarm all over you and you're going to make a fatal mistake sooner or later. When the penalty went in, my matchday companion said: "They are going to go on to win this." We weren't surprised. For the last 15 minutes we'd look like a schoolboy team taking on the PE teachers. 

The blame for that involves more than one or two players.

None of which excuses lunging into a tackle in the penalty box in injury time. I agree, plenty more wrong with the goal than just that (how does JD let his man outside him so easily), but still no excuse for baker 

[supercidered]

17 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

Ryan Lowe was the man we should have got, but he wasn’t a big enough name for most on here.

His record speaks for himself. 

Ryan Lowe's record speaks for himself or itself? Doesn't really matter.

I don't prescribe to the not 'big enough name' view either. Ryan Lowe has no track record in any league above League 1 and even then what makes him such a great choice?

Another untried (See Holden) option would be sinking without a trace right now in the current predicament City are in. More dead wood than Teignmouth beach still here even after the lot that have already gone. 

Yes things are pretty sh!te and yes I think that will continue for the rest of this season at least. It can't be all ripped up and started again because it has reached such a bad point that there is no way we as a club can buy our way out of this. 

The important thing is to stay up this year and I believe experience in the shape of NP will keep us up. Another Championship Rookie Manager / Management Team before NP's appointment would have been an utter disaster.

 

[LondonBristolian]

1 minute ago, supercidered said:

Ryan Lowe's record speaks for himself or itself? Doesn't really matter.

I don't prescribe to the not 'big enough name' view either. Ryan Lowe has no track record in any league above League 1 and even then what makes him such a great choice?

Another untried (See Holden) option would be sinking without a trace right now in the current predicament City are in. More dead wood than Teignmouth beach still here even after the lot that have already gone. 

Yes things are pretty sh!te and yes I think that will continue for the rest of this season at least. It can't be all ripped up and started again because it has reached such a bad point that there is no way we as a club can buy our way out of this. 

The important thing is to stay up this year and I believe experience in the shape of NP will keep us up. Another Championship Rookie Manager / Management Team before NP's appointment would have been an utter disaster.

 

The problem is we can only attract one of three levels of manager:

1) A manager where the Championship is their level. 

2) A manager who has managed in the top flight but is now on their way down and may or may not get back up to where they once were.

3) A manager who not yet proven they are a top flight manager but will do so in the future.

All three come with risks.

The manager is category 1) is most likely to do a steady job but is unlikely to do more than that. Most 'journeyman' managers have their successes and failures so even that steady job is no guarantee. 

The manager is category 2) has succeeded in the past but may not have kept up with changes in the game or may not have the same appetite for success or finger on the pulse that they once have.

The manager in category is 3) is always going to be a risk but is where the reward is greatest. So too, however, is the possibility that - if it doesn't work out - it looks like a naive appointment.

Thomas Frank, Sean Dyche, Daniel Farke, Graham Potter, Brendan Rodgers (at Swansea) (at both Swansea and Brighton) and Dean Smith (at both Brentford and Villa) have all succeeded and now manage in the premier league but, had any of them failed, it would have been easy to have written the narrative as to why they were the wrong appointment and inexperienced managers and how their respective clubs could easily have avoided the mistakes they made in hiring them.

Ryan Lowe might never manage above League One level. Or he might get a job in the Championship and prove to be an absolute disaster. Or he might - just might - be yet another manager whose career overtakes ours and we wonder why we never offered him the role. All we know at the moment is that he wins matches, has two promotion on his CV and plays attractive football. We could decide he is too much of a gamble and let someone else give him the opportunity. They might find that gamble pays off or they might not. But, if that gamble does pay off, he'll be yet another manager where we'll only know he's good enough to manage us at a point when we've no longer any chance of recruiting him. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Enter Sandman said:

Why don’t people add baker and Weimann. They’d both expired their contracts and Pearson brought them back. They are his signings. 
Baker - failure, Weimann - mixed 

Baker - failure?  You having a laugh?  He’s played pretty well almost every game he’s played so far.  Yep he’s a Pearson signing in effect….a free transfer on a significantly reduced wage based on incentives.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, JonDolman said:

It is a very good point you make that Baker and Weimann were as much Pearson signings as any others he made. They were free transfer signings.

The reason I say this is I completely forgot

Technically Weimann wasn’t released like Baker was…..but it doesn’t matter really.  In essence we got two Championship quality players on a free for less money than Baker 2021 and Weimann 2021 were on.

Back to @Enter Sandman I sense you write “mixed” with negative connotations?

In an ideal world every signing would improve the squad.  In many respects the squad is stronger for having both Baker and Weimann.  Could we have got the same / better levels out of a different signing for the same outlay (just wages)?  That’s the question.

I think we often judge / compare to Fulham or Bournemouth, we should be judging against the likes of Forest, Millwall, Preston, Birmingham….and overall there isn’t much difference between our players and theirs.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

Players are not stepping up. It will be back to the youngsters very soon. 

I think that has already started!

Tanner, Scott.

Pring, just having a lull, but he’ll come again.

Not forgetting Massengo or Dasilva (who is still young).

I like Vyner, but it appears he’s gone from first choice RB to outside the 18 and Tanner / Simpson ahead of him.  Scott ahead of Palmer, Bakinson, O’Dowda.

I think Conway will be chomping to get back into the 18 too in time.

[GrahamC]

8 hours ago, Northern Red said:

Yep. Same as the suggestion of Russell Martin the other day. It'll be someone else by the weekend.

Bloke at MK, probably.

The people suggesting these names will soon be saying someone else if their chosen one loses a couple.

[BS4 on Tour...]

7 hours ago, Sturny said:

Yeah sure he was given a short amount of time, it does tell a story. Maybe they didn't buy into his long project plan, but then you have to ask why hire him? And why did NP take the job? 

The question I'm wondering is if those clubs failed NP or NP failed at those clubs? I think the Derby job can be negated from that list because he left on mutual consent over the drones at training camps. 

And anyway you're making a strawman argument, so we're special because we're going to give him longer? 8 months already and cant sort out the home form. Maybe we're just the biggest fools out of those clubs.

I just want to go the gate again with high hopes of a fun game. 

No strawman argument - nowhere in my post did I intimate “we’re special ...” - I was simply responding to your post which basically said he failed at his last three jobs - he was given something like 20 odd games as Watford boss, around 40 or 50 games as Leuven boss and 14 games as Derby boss - no-one could bring success to those clubs in such short timescales ... that’s all 

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, billywedlock said:

 It will be back to the youngsters very soon. 

Doubt many of them are ready yet- if we are relying on too many during a long hard Championship slog, then we're in trouble.

[Sturny]

2 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

No strawman argument - nowhere in my post did I intimate “we’re special ...” - I was simply responding to your post which basically said he failed at his last three jobs - he was given something like 20 odd games as Watford boss, around 40 or 50 games as Leuven boss and 14 games as Derby boss - no-one could bring success to those clubs in such short timescales ... that’s all 

nobody can bring success to a club in 40-50 games?! Not sure about that.  

Edited October 20, 2021 by Sturny

[Sturny]

2 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

No strawman argument - nowhere in my post did I intimate “we’re special ...” - I was simply responding to your post which basically said he failed at his last three jobs - he was given something like 20 odd games as Watford boss, around 40 or 50 games as Leuven boss and 14 games as Derby boss - no-one could bring success to those clubs in such short timescales ... that’s all 

Also I will take my comment back about strawman, fair enough 

[BS4 on Tour...]

29 minutes ago, Sturny said:

Okay, but my post/question was what makes us special compared to those other clubs and you asked me if I thought his time at derby was enough. Strawman imo. And no you didn’t, I just said that to strawman you back! 

‘Strawman’ - ‘Strawman’ - ‘Strawman’ - this sort of terminology didn’t seem to exist until about 18 months ago -  until loony snowflakes started infecting our language - do you use ‘Whataboutery’ - ‘Gaslighting’ - and ‘Virtue Signalling’ too?! 

[Sturny]

1 minute ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

‘Strawman’ - ‘Strawman’ - ‘Strawman’ - this sort of terminology didn’t seem to exist until about 18 months ago -  until loony snowflakes started infecting our language - do you use ‘Whataboutery’ - ‘Gaslighting’ - and ‘Virtue Signalling’ too?! 

No, but I use tw_at sometimes too sorry but you walked into that one haha 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Sturny

[BS4 on Tour...]

35 minutes ago, Sturny said:

Okay, but my post/question was what makes us special compared to those other clubs and you asked me if I thought his time at derby was enough. Strawman imo. And no you didn’t, I just said that to strawman you back! 

We’re not special really Sturny - I was just chuffed that for the first time in 20 years we’d hired a manager who had decent successes on his CV - and don’t forget he discovered Jamie Vardy and bought Riyad Mahrez for £450k - he was subsequently sold for £50m - I’m happy with Pearson ...

2 minutes ago, Sturny said:

No, but I use tw_at sometimes too sorry but you walked into that one haha 

Fair play!

[supercidered]

15 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

The problem is we can only attract one of three levels of manager:

1) A manager where the Championship is their level. 

2) A manager who has managed in the top flight but is now on their way down and may or may not get back up to where they once were.

3) A manager who not yet proven they are a top flight manager but will do so in the future.

All three come with risks.

The manager is category 1) is most likely to do a steady job but is unlikely to do more than that. Most 'journeyman' managers have their successes and failures so even that steady job is no guarantee. 

The manager is category 2) has succeeded in the past but may not have kept up with changes in the game or may not have the same appetite for success or finger on the pulse that they once have.

The manager in category is 3) is always going to be a risk but is where the reward is greatest. So too, however, is the possibility that - if it doesn't work out - it looks like a naive appointment.

Thomas Frank, Sean Dyche, Daniel Farke, Graham Potter, Brendan Rodgers (at Swansea) (at both Swansea and Brighton) and Dean Smith (at both Brentford and Villa) have all succeeded and now manage in the premier league but, had any of them failed, it would have been easy to have written the narrative as to why they were the wrong appointment and inexperienced managers and how their respective clubs could easily have avoided the mistakes they made in hiring them.

Ryan Lowe might never manage above League One level. Or he might get a job in the Championship and prove to be an absolute disaster. Or he might - just might - be yet another manager whose career overtakes ours and we wonder why we never offered him the role. All we know at the moment is that he wins matches, has two promotion on his CV and plays attractive football. We could decide he is too much of a gamble and let someone else give him the opportunity. They might find that gamble pays off or they might not. But, if that gamble does pay off, he'll be yet another manager where we'll only know he's good enough to manage us at a point when we've no longer any chance of recruiting him. 

I agree with most of that.

However, given that we were already sliding toward the situation we find ourselves in long before LJ finally went. We then opted for a mind blowing gamble that never paid off. So City only had options 2 & 3.

It seems to be conveniently forgotten that there have been difficult times at Plymouth for Ryan Lowe. Plymouth are top of League One now but how often has that happened in his tenure? There seems to be a perception that he plays 'attractive football'? As I live in Devon, I've seen Plymouth play and unfortunately know a lot of Plymouth fans (fickle bunch) and believe me it ain't that pretty. In addition, League 1 is nowhere near the standard of the Championship.

Long and short of it is that to have appointed Ryan Lowe or similar at the last appointment stage would have been a disaster. NP has been appointed and he came in to this situation with his eyes wide open. He may or may not succeed but I'm willing to bet he has more chance than a Ryan Lowe type appointment. Navigate this season and kick on next is the best I feel we can hope for. That's because of a recent history as mentioned above and it's going to be a time consuming restructure job for experienced heads and not the time for an untried 'one for the future'.

[chinapig]

11 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

‘Strawman’ - ‘Strawman’ - ‘Strawman’ - this sort of terminology didn’t seem to exist until about 18 months ago -  until loony snowflakes started infecting our language - do you use ‘Whataboutery’ - ‘Gaslighting’ - and ‘Virtue Signalling’ too?! 

Straw man argument is a term for a logical fallacy that is thought to go back to at least 1520. Even I wasn't born then!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[petehinton]

13 hours ago, JonDolman said:

It is crazy to think that LJ had us top 6 from mid October to the end of February in 17/18 season.

Top 6 from late January up to late April of 18/19 season, and was so close to making playoffs.

And even in 19/20 he had us in or just outside the top 6 from late August to the new year when we then dropped to upper mid table.

But we then won 4 in a row, and when we signed Nakhi Wells we were 6th in the league.

Obviously it all went wrong after that, I don't think we could cope without Brownhill.

Overall we did spend a lot of time for 3 seasons in very good positions.

By the way this is not me saying he was a great manager for us! Just find it interesting looking back.

simply put, for me, he massively shat the bed. Maybe he knew he needed to come back from the break in the season flying, as we had basically a fully fit squad? Maybe he knew if he didn't get top 6 he was a gonner? Either way, we were absolutely abysmal in the first game back against Blackburn, then he changed the line up fairly drastically in the game after that, then went on to say we were going 433 to replicate Liverpool's line up, and use Afobe as a winger?

Basically everything LJ publicly asked for, he got. And then when things didn't go well, he seemed to revert to bemoaning something else. Just ran himself round in circles until he fell over in the end.

[Sweeneys Penalties]

I had a conversation with a close mate of mine before DH took the reigns: A committed Janner " "we love him, he's been a breath of fresh air since he arrived. Two years as a manager, promotion from L2 with great spirit. Not sure he's a tactical genius. He has no Plan B."

It's the last part that worries me about Lowe

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

13 hours ago, JonDolman said:

It is crazy to think that LJ had us top 6 from mid October to the end of February in 17/18 season.

Top 6 from late January up to late April of 18/19 season, and was so close to making playoffs.

And even in 19/20 he had us in or just outside the top 6 from late August to the new year when we then dropped to upper mid table.

But we then won 4 in a row, and when we signed Nakhi Wells we were 6th in the league.

Obviously it all went wrong after that, I don't think we could cope without Brownhill.

Overall we did spend a lot of time for 3 seasons in very good positions.

By the way this is not me saying he was a great manager for us! Just find it interesting looking back.

And don’t forget that Dean Holden had us near the top last season, until we were shafted by all the injuries…

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

9 minutes ago, Sweeneys Penalties said:

I had a conversation with a close mate of mine before DH took the reigns: A committed Janner " "we love him, he's been a breath of fresh air since he arrived. Two years as a manager, promotion from L2 with great spirit. Not sure he's a tactical genius. He has no Plan B."

It's the last part that worries me about Lowe

Are you saying that Pearson has a Plan B?  When’s he going to start using it?  

[CiderJar]

On 19/10/2021 at 22:45, Kid in the Riot said:

It's Watford: played 22, won 7, drawn 5, lost 10

It's Leuven: played 56, won 18, drawn 15, lost 23

It's Derby: played 14, won 3, drawn 5, lost 6

 

I think we need to give him three full years, which will be painful but benefit us in the long term.

The short term-ism of those football clubs is noteable

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Watford_F.C._managers

https://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=5329&teamTabs=managers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Derby_County_F.C._managers

 

 

Edited October 21, 2021 by CiderJar

[Super]

1 hour ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Are you saying that Pearson has a Plan B?  When’s he going to start using it?  

Lets get the record first then we'll worry about a Plan B.

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

@Kid in the Riot started this thread shortly after the terrible result v Forest (so I dont need to start another). I was quite surprised at the OP but the substance of what he said is undeniable. There are a number of posters who dont get carried away when we're doing well or doing badly and Kid is one of them. 

I enjoy reading Matt Withers reports purely for the same reason- usually a realistic and grounded opinion ( like @Olé) quite factual but with a slice of opinion. Matt said on Bristol Live:

"What I witnessed on Saturday was no better than I watched under the final games of Lee Johnson and under Dean Holden. I just can’t see the progress. Players appear lacking in confidence and just don’t take on the responsibility.

Pearson openly admits to not coaching, which seems very odd and with Paul Simpson having departed likely to be followed by Keith Downing who does that leave the coaching responsibilities to?"

Unlike LJ who seemed to inspire very strong and deeply personal reactions often based on his height, NP has pretty much been a very popular appointment. I cant help but think of the fairy story " The Emperor's new clothes" and wonder if @Kid in the Riot is actually the kid in the crowd who notices the reality?

My own "tinge of doubt" is increasing but I also have little doubt that we can and will beat Barnsley. I was disappointed that some idiots chose the WBA match to have a go at Pearson but that's football. 

By Christmas , I think we'll know if Pearson still has it in him to reshape BCFC into a club with the potential to challenge at the top of this division at some point in  future seasons. If he continues with similar  performances  ( and results) between now and then we'll be looking elsewhere. If that's the case then I suggest putting all Manager candidates names in a hat and getting Marina Dolman to pick out the lucky winner because our general  recruitment strategy doesnt seem to be any better. 

 

[Rob k]

1 hour ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

@Kid in the Riot started this thread shortly after the terrible result v Forest (so I dont need to start another). I was quite surprised at the OP but the substance of what he said is undeniable. There are a number of posters who dont get carried away when we're doing well or doing badly and Kid is one of them. 

I enjoy reading Matt Withers reports purely for the same reason- usually a realistic and grounded opinion ( like @Olé) quite factual but with a slice of opinion. Matt said on Bristol Live:

"What I witnessed on Saturday was no better than I watched under the final games of Lee Johnson and under Dean Holden. I just can’t see the progress. Players appear lacking in confidence and just don’t take on the responsibility.

Pearson openly admits to not coaching, which seems very odd and with Paul Simpson having departed likely to be followed by Keith Downing who does that leave the coaching responsibilities to?"

Unlike LJ who seemed to inspire very strong and deeply personal reactions often based on his height, NP has pretty much been a very popular appointment. I cant help but think of the fairy story " The Emperor's new clothes" and wonder if @Kid in the Riot is actually the kid in the crowd who notices the reality?

My own "tinge of doubt" is increasing but I also have little doubt that we can and will beat Barnsley. I was disappointed that some idiots chose the WBA match to have a go at Pearson but that's football. 

By Christmas , I think we'll know if Pearson still has it in him to reshape BCFC into a club with the potential to challenge at the top of this division at some point in  future seasons. If he continues with similar  performances  ( and results) between now and then we'll be looking elsewhere. If that's the case then I suggest putting all Manager candidates names in a hat and getting Marina Dolman to pick out the lucky winner because our general  recruitment strategy doesnt seem to be any better. 

 

Why by xmas? We won’t have been able to bring anyone in by then, maybe by xmas 2022 we will have a better idea 

[harvey54]

On 19/10/2021 at 23:00, Edgy Red said:

Nige still has my backing at this stage but i do worry that his management/playing style is becoming a bit outdated.

The old fashioned "build from the back" pragmatic managers (Hughton, McCarthy and Hodgson etc) are finding success harder to come by in the modern game and are being outfoxed by expressive attack minded coaches such as Potter, Howe and Nathan Jones.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but it was painfully clear that we needed some offensive reinforcements during the summer, even if they were loans or lower league punts.

I really hope i'm wrong and he can get us going but i am starting to worry a bit now. Tonights result is another damaging outcome that must be affecting the players and staffs confidence and may start to become difficult to shake off?

And Eddie Howe learnt his trade under SOD. I still think when we were looking long term for a rebuilder then Eddie was a better option. Nige is in the same mould as big Sam IMHO. May be past their best but only time will tell and I hope I'm proved wrong 

[harvey54]

3 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

@Kid in the Riot started this thread shortly after the terrible result v Forest (so I dont need to start another). I was quite surprised at the OP but the substance of what he said is undeniable. There are a number of posters who dont get carried away when we're doing well or doing badly and Kid is one of them. 

I enjoy reading Matt Withers reports purely for the same reason- usually a realistic and grounded opinion ( like @Olé) quite factual but with a slice of opinion. Matt said on Bristol Live:

"What I witnessed on Saturday was no better than I watched under the final games of Lee Johnson and under Dean Holden. I just can’t see the progress. Players appear lacking in confidence and just don’t take on the responsibility.

Pearson openly admits to not coaching, which seems very odd and with Paul Simpson having departed likely to be followed by Keith Downing who does that leave the coaching responsibilities to?"

Unlike LJ who seemed to inspire very strong and deeply personal reactions often based on his height, NP has pretty much been a very popular appointment. I cant help but think of the fairy story " The Emperor's new clothes" and wonder if @Kid in the Riot is actually the kid in the crowd who notices the reality?

My own "tinge of doubt" is increasing but I also have little doubt that we can and will beat Barnsley. I was disappointed that some idiots chose the WBA match to have a go at Pearson but that's football. 

By Christmas , I think we'll know if Pearson still has it in him to reshape BCFC into a club with the potential to challenge at the top of this division at some point in  future seasons. If he continues with similar  performances  ( and results) between now and then we'll be looking elsewhere. If that's the case then I suggest putting all Manager candidates names in a hat and getting Marina Dolman to pick out the lucky winner because our general  recruitment strategy doesnt seem to be any better. 

 

Good post and I agree with most of it but I still believe he deserves a couple of transfer windows before we start to judge him. Christmas may be too soon to judge as he's still playing with the majority of the hand he's been dealt. If we can start getting home results to match our away form mid table will be on. In a relegation fight I can't see this squad having the quality or confidence to stay up. 

We desperately need a proven goalscorer and some creativity in midfield. We're too one dimensional. 

[Kid in the Riot]

Some possible mitigation that I noticed today, which may put a slightly different perspective on the last month's results...

Our last 4 defeats have come against teams 1st (B'muff), 4th (Forest), 5th (Millwall) and 6th (WBA) in the the form table.

In between those were a draw against Fulham (2nd) and a win over Posh (18th).

Next up - Barnsley (23rd), Brum (20th) and Cov (13th). Goes without saying, we really need to see some points being won in these three games....

[Davefevs]

4 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

@Kid in the Riot started this thread shortly after the terrible result v Forest (so I dont need to start another). I was quite surprised at the OP but the substance of what he said is undeniable. There are a number of posters who dont get carried away when we're doing well or doing badly and Kid is one of them. 

I enjoy reading Matt Withers reports purely for the same reason- usually a realistic and grounded opinion ( like @Olé) quite factual but with a slice of opinion. Matt said on Bristol Live:

"What I witnessed on Saturday was no better than I watched under the final games of Lee Johnson and under Dean Holden. I just can’t see the progress. Players appear lacking in confidence and just don’t take on the responsibility.

Pearson openly admits to not coaching, which seems very odd and with Paul Simpson having departed likely to be followed by Keith Downing who does that leave the coaching responsibilities to?"

Unlike LJ who seemed to inspire very strong and deeply personal reactions often based on his height, NP has pretty much been a very popular appointment. I cant help but think of the fairy story " The Emperor's new clothes" and wonder if @Kid in the Riot is actually the kid in the crowd who notices the reality?

My own "tinge of doubt" is increasing but I also have little doubt that we can and will beat Barnsley. I was disappointed that some idiots chose the WBA match to have a go at Pearson but that's football. 

By Christmas , I think we'll know if Pearson still has it in him to reshape BCFC into a club with the potential to challenge at the top of this division at some point in  future seasons. If he continues with similar  performances  ( and results) between now and then we'll be looking elsewhere. If that's the case then I suggest putting all Manager candidates names in a hat and getting Marina Dolman to pick out the lucky winner because our general  recruitment strategy doesnt seem to be any better. 

 

Good post.  Think there are two things going on.

1. Reshaping of the football club

2. Sorting out on the pitch stuff

The two are linked.  If you divorce them for the purpose of this debate….I think he’s doing a good job with 1., but I’ve been disappointed with 2.  However, 2. Is hamstrung to some extent by 1.

Thats not making excuses….think it’s the reality of how big a mess we were left in.  A squad without any identity.

The simple and costly thing to do in theory would’ve been to try and retain all the OOC players, and then try to work out how to get the best out of them.  Some will argue that’s what he was doing March to May, but with injuries and downing of tools he was pi$$ing in the wind in some respects.  I suspect with the joy of hindsight he might’ve made some different decisions.  However decisions had to be made on those players, some will have made those decisions for him, e.g. Walsh and Diedhiou who wouldn’t sign a new deal anyway.  He’s cut £10-12m of costs out of the club over the summer.  He deserves some credit for that….but it counts for nothing on the pitch during 90 mins on a Saturday / Tuesday.

1 hour ago, harvey54 said:

And Eddie Howe learnt his trade under SOD. I still think when we were looking long term for a rebuilder then Eddie was a better option. Nige is in the same mould as big Sam IMHO. May be past their best but only time will tell and I hope I'm proved wrong 

Your example below is why I ultimately see Nige relinquishing the control he currently has and handing the data to day football stuff to a younger man, as Nige slips fully into Consultant / Mentor / Sporting Director type role.

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

3 hours ago, Rob k said:

Why by xmas? We won’t have been able to bring anyone in by then, maybe by xmas 2022 we will have a better idea 

I guess because it's another 10 Championship games. If we are then fighting relegation and performances are not vastly improved then I doubt very much indeed he'll be given until Xmas 2022 by anyone- particularly not the fans.

 

2 hours ago, harvey54 said:

Good post and I agree with most of it but I still believe he deserves a couple of transfer windows before we start to judge him. Christmas may be too soon to judge as he's still playing with the majority of the hand he's been dealt. If we can start getting home results to match our away form mid table will be on. In a relegation fight I can't see this squad having the quality or confidence to stay up. 

We desperately need a proven goalscorer and some creativity in midfield. We're too one dimensional. 

I think we have got the quality- at least enough to stay up but we currently dont seem have either the confidence or nouse to stay in a game. That has to be the job of the coaching staff.

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

49 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

Your example below is why I ultimately see Nige relinquishing the control he currently has and handing the data to day football stuff to a younger man, as Nige slips fully into Consultant / Mentor / Sporting Director type role.

How fascinating- not an option I had even considered but possibly a very good way forward which would play to NP's strengths. It might be a bit too revolutionary and forward thinking for the board though.

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

How fascinating- not an option I had even considered but possibly a very good way forward which would play to NP's strengths. It might be a bit too revolutionary and forward thinking for the board though.

Imho Nige likes his work-life balance and at his age and with recent health issues, I reckon he’s prepared to give as much of the next 3 years to creating a strong position at City as possible, but with the objective of stepping back as soon as he can integrate the right people to make him less necessary.

I might be wrong, just how I see it.

Wouldn’t it be great for example if he saw the ability in Alex Ball to be the long term successor.  Ok, that might be a million miles off target, but a nice thought if nothing else.

[KegCity]

On 21/10/2021 at 14:11, JonDolman said:

I don't agree with so many fans saying Pearson came into an impossible job and that we are a mess. Like I said above many of these players would have decent championship interest if we were to let them go.

Was it the Luton manager moaning post match that we can afford someone like Wells who was on our bench, after we saw City struggle to cope with 35 year old Cameron Jerome. And let in a last minute equaliser against Danny Hylton who is surely not a Championship quality player. Creating zero chances in open play against the likes of Reece Burke and Tom Lockyer, who aren't bad players, but how can they cope so easily with us, and with Henri Lansbury In front of their defence who we rightly weren't interested in keeping as he's so slow and can't put the work in defensively. And they also created so many great chances against our strong (on paper) defence.

 

Don't mean to keep harping on about this but I don't get where this speculation about lots of championship clubs potentially being interested in our players has come from? Weimann and Baker ultimately chose to stay here on reduced wages at the end of last season and I would say they're two of the better players currently at the club. Assuming they didn't turn down higher wages elsewhere in the league to stay that suggests that there wasn't much interest in them from other championship clubs.

If those two couldn't get a better deal elsewhere than reduced terms here, I don't see how many players in the squad can expect to do better? I genuinely believe we'll struggle to levy a fee for most of our deadwood, it'll be interesting to see if anyone other than HNM, Kalas, Wells or Bentley get approached in January. My hunch would be no but time will tell.

I've said this elsewhere but the squad really is bang average and doesn't have one cohesive style of play that brings the team together. It's not a squad set up to press, it's not a squad set up to counter attack, it's not a squad set up to play long ball football, for me that's more important than personnel. I can't go into detail on Luton as I frankly don't know, but surely Lansbury, Jerome etc all suit a certain style of play?

[Davefevs]

42 minutes ago, KegCity said:

I genuinely believe we'll struggle to levy a fee for most of our deadwood, it'll be interesting to see if anyone other than HNM, Kalas, Wells or Bentley get approached in January. My hunch would be no but time will tell.

Agree. Not least with the wages they are on too.

The classic example is Kasey Palmer - £20-25k p.w. allegedly, assuming City paid him what he was on at Chelsea.  Will have 18 months left on his contract in January, and be sat with an asset value of c£1.3m.

If you fancy signing Palmer I don’t see how we would get both a fee and someone to cover his wages.  He might accept less at a new club, for a longer contract, but it will cost us £1.3m as an impairment.

Not good business.

We saw the market with Adam Nagy.

[AshtonGreat]

13 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Agree. Not least with the wages they are on too.

The classic example is Kasey Palmer - £20-25k p.w. allegedly, assuming City paid him what he was on at Chelsea.  Will have 18 months left on his contract in January, and be sat with an asset value of c£1.3m.

If you fancy signing Palmer I don’t see how we would get both a fee and someone to cover his wages.  He might accept less at a new club, for a longer contract, but it will cost us £1.3m as an impairment.

Not good business.

We saw the market with Adam Nagy.

How depressing

[Engvall’s Splinter]

16 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

I guess because it's another 10 Championship games. If we are then fighting relegation and performances are not vastly improved then I doubt very much indeed he'll be given until Xmas 2022 by anyone- particularly not the fans.

 

I think we have got the quality- at least enough to stay up but we currently dont seem have either the confidence or nouse to stay in a game. That has to be the job of the coaching staff.

Out of interest, as I read this quality shout a lot, what assessment or how much have you watched of the teams below us to know they don’t have the quality? Many of our players wouldn’t get in other championship sides - perhaps Bentley, Kalas only at the moment. 
 

Also, football is more than quality. It’s determination, self motivation, the will to win especially when the chips are down. At the minute I don’t see much of that from a few of our players. It only takes a few and the impact is huge. 

 

[2015]

6 minutes ago, lukebcfc1989 said:

Bentley has no sell on value his next club will be League 1 be that 1 year or 3 years from now 

Really? He will probably be in his peak over the next couple of years. If he isn't with us he'll be at another Championship club, or a back up goalkeeper in the Premier League.
If Lee Camp can play at Championship level for over a decade then Daniel Bentley certainly will

[Engvall’s Splinter]

1 hour ago, lukebcfc1989 said:

Bentley has no sell on value his next club will be League 1 be that 1 year or 3 years from now 

Got to be looking for a nibble there. Fair play. 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

3 hours ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

Out of interest, as I read this quality shout a lot, what assessment or how much have you watched of the teams below us to know they don’t have the quality? Many of our players wouldn’t get in other championship sides - perhaps Bentley, Kalas only at the moment. 
 

Also, football is more than quality. It’s determination, self motivation, the will to win especially when the chips are down. At the minute I don’t see much of that from a few of our players. It only takes a few and the impact is huge. 

 

Actually a very good question about quality. I think you missed a few players such as Wells,HNM and James with the possibility that Scott might be in or around another Champ team possibly Williams if he ever gets fit. Weimann also. I really dont have the in depth knowledge or stats to know if those clubs who are going to be fighting relegation have individual quality players better than ours. It doesn't help that for whatever reason, some players are being played out of their natural position.

When it comes to it- you are exactly right that even with quality, if the players aren't giving their all and showing the will to fight for every ball then quality counts for little. So it's down to the coaching staff and that is precisely the point of the OP about having a tinge of doubt.

 

[Rob k]

1 hour ago, lukebcfc1989 said:

Bentley has no sell on value his next club will be League 1 be that 1 year or 3 years from now 

Think he will have some value but certainly massively overrated- Christ, some even thought Southgate would be looking at him

[Northern Red]

Don't feed it lads.

[Davefevs]

32 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Think he will have some value but certainly massively overrated- Christ, some even thought Southgate would be looking at him

Undoubtedly has value….but how much would we get for him?  How much over the initial c£3m we paid in the current market?  And if more, some of that will be owed to Brentford.

I doubt it would find the striker we need.

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 26/10/2021 at 15:25, Kid in the Riot said:

Some possible mitigation that I noticed today, which may put a slightly different perspective on the last month's results...

Our last 4 defeats have come against teams 1st (B'muff), 4th (Forest), 5th (Millwall) and 6th (WBA) in the the form table.

In between those were a draw against Fulham (2nd) and a win over Posh (18th).

Next up - Barnsley (23rd), Brum (20th) and Cov (13th). Goes without saying, we really need to see some points being won in these three games....

13th in the form table maybe but top 6 in the League with 19 pts from 7 at home- that will be difficult for sure.

5 pts would be a fairly acceptable return I think.

[Son of Fred]

On 27/10/2021 at 12:51, Rob k said:

Think he will have some value but certainly massively overrated- Christ, some even thought Southgate would be looking at him

This....

If we can sell to generate funds eventually then please,,cash in.

[IAmNick]

6 hours ago, lukebcfc1989 said:

I will say what I see… mistakes lead to goals unfortunately Bentley is a dodgy keeper, I have watched enough football to no one … we won’t reach our ambitions with him in there I would bet a polite small wager with you that whe City do get promoted in the next 5 years Bentley will not be in goal

That doesn't match what you said though does it?

You said his next club will be league 1 in 1 or 3 years. I'll make a small bet (for charity) with you that if he leaves city in that timeframe it won't be for a league 1 club. Deal?

[Jeez]

On 19/10/2021 at 22:45, Kid in the Riot said:

I still think he's probably the best person available to turn this mess around, and let's be honest it was a huge mess. Our league position flattered us last season and Pearson was quite right in saying that had the season gone on another 10 games we'd have gone down.

However, it's not just his record here: played 28, won 6, drawn 8, lost 14.

It's Watford: played 22, won 7, drawn 5, lost 10

It's Leuven: played 56, won 18, drawn 15, lost 23

It's Derby: played 14, won 3, drawn 5, lost 6

Those appointments span the last 6+ years and in each job he's lost more games than he's won. I haven't totalled it, but I'm guessing Pearson's last 120 games or so in charge of a football club wouldn't make for pretty reading. There's about 34 wins there I think.

There is a nagging doubt in my mind as to whether we've got this manager in too late and his best years, which were at Leicester 2011-15, starting over 10 years ago, are behind him. 

Yes the doubt is now firmly setting in.

[BasSavage88]