GrahamC Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 Firstly, it’s a penalty. Their bloke trips Scott, who might tumble theatrically but it’s a foul, so it’s a penalty & if the ref really thinks not, then why doesn’t he book Scott for diving? So if we score that (not a given with our record, though as we are coming up to a year since we had one in the league then that isn’t based on too much), we are 2 up & I reckon we’d have held on. Secondly their winner is as clear a handball as you can get, poor by Bentley, we also should have done far better to stop the cross but I can’t believe that it was given. None of this excuses the result but we could certainly do with the rub of the green in a game at BS3. 19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTFABM Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, GrahamC said: Firstly, it’s a penalty. Their bloke trips Scott, who might tumble theatrically but it’s a foul, so it’s a penalty & if the ref really thinks not, then why doesn’t he book Scott for diving? So if we score that (not a given with our record, though as we are coming up to a year since we had one in the league then that isn’t based on too much), we are 2 up & I reckon we’d have held on. Secondly their winner is as clear a handball as you can get, poor by Bentley, we also should have done far better to stop the cross but I can’t believe that it was given. None of this excuses the result but we could certainly do with the rub of the green in a game at BS3. They should also of had a penalty so i think they evened themselves out. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocking Red Cyril Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, GrahamC said: Firstly, it’s a penalty. Their bloke trips Scott, who might tumble theatrically but it’s a foul, so it’s a penalty & if the ref really thinks not, then why doesn’t he book Scott for diving? So if we score that (not a given with our record, though as we are coming up to a year since we had one in the league then that isn’t based on too much), we are 2 up & I reckon we’d have held on. Secondly their winner is as clear a handball as you can get, poor by Bentley, we also should have done far better to stop the cross but I can’t believe that it was given. None of this excuses the result but we could certainly do with the rub of the green in a game at BS3. Totally agree on both points. But when it's not going your way that's how desicions go . Over all pretty impressed with city's performance and I did like Martin and wells together up front Just now, GTFABM said: They should also of had a penalty so i think they evened themselves out. There penalty appeal was no way a penalty, ever. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTFABM Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 minute ago, Rocking Red Cyril said: Totally agree on both points. But when it's not going your way that's how desicions go . Over all pretty impressed with city's performance and I did like Martin and wells together up front There penalty appeal was no way a penalty, ever. You think if one of their defenders completely checked/barged one of our players miles off the ball in the box you would be saying that. I get seeing a game through rose tinted glasses but thats a penalty all day long 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 Just now, GTFABM said: You think if one of their defenders completely checked/barged one of our players miles off the ball in the box you would be saying that. I get seeing a game through rose tinted glasses but thats a penalty all day long I don’t recall their penalty shout….can you remind me which players, which half, etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTFABM Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 minute ago, Davefevs said: I don’t recall their penalty shout….can you remind me which players, which half, etc? James body checked their right back (i think). 2nd half 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 5 minutes ago, GTFABM said: James body checked their right back (i think). 2nd half It was a really poor challenge because the ball was rolling to our player anyway. Definite foul for me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTFABM Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 Just now, mozo said: It was a really poor challenge because the ball was rolling to our player anyway. Definite foul for me. Thats how i seen it. No eyes for the ball just a blatant block. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1960maaan Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 12 minutes ago, GrahamC said: Firstly, it’s a penalty. Their bloke trips Scott, who might tumble theatrically but it’s a foul, so it’s a penalty & if the ref really thinks not, then why doesn’t he book Scott for diving? So if we score that (not a given with our record, though as we are coming up to a year since we had one in the league then that isn’t based on too much), we are 2 up & I reckon we’d have held on. Secondly their winner is as clear a handball as you can get, poor by Bentley, we also should have done far better to stop the cross but I can’t believe that it was given. None of this excuses the result but we could certainly do with the rub of the green in a game at BS3. We are Lansdown just outside of the area, while I shouted for a Pen my mate was sure it wasn't. The Ref signalled to the ball so I think he thought the defender got a touch, this would also explain why Scott wasn't booked. He may have thought there was contact after the tackle. I've watched the replay, it looks a blatant hand ball from the wrong side. The Linesman was the right side for it, but it seemed neither wanted to get involved with the game, just throws and the occasional offside. I really don't think we will be getting much luck when we defend our box for 45 minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted October 20, 2021 Author Share Posted October 20, 2021 Just now, 1960maaan said: We are Lansdown just outside of the area, while I shouted for a Pen my mate was sure it wasn't. The Ref signalled to the ball so I think he thought the defender got a touch, this would also explain why Scott wasn't booked. He may have thought there was contact after the tackle. I've watched the replay, it looks a blatant hand ball from the wrong side. The Linesman was the right side for it, but it seemed neither wanted to get involved with the game, just throws and the occasional offside. I really don't think we will be getting much luck when we defend our box for 45 minutes. Not arguing with your last point at all, but having seen the winner again, it is blatant. VAR would definitely have disallowed it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTFABM Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, GrahamC said: Not arguing with your last point at all, but having seen the winner again, it is blatant. VAR would definitely have disallowed it. VAR can get in the bin. Kasey Palmers goal against Fulham get’s ruled out aswell through VAR. Over a season they roughly level out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocking Red Cyril Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 I think var gives us our penalty and not there's . But var is also subjective to the opinion of those watching it . I still find it amazing how we can all watch the same game and see it differently 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepy1968 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 18 minutes ago, mozo said: It was a really poor challenge because the ball was rolling to our player anyway. Definite foul for me. Well we all said we'd have given it. Obviously not as clear cut as the one they got - probably a 70/30 shout in favour of the pen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 21 minutes ago, 1960maaan said: We are Lansdown just outside of the area, while I shouted for a Pen my mate was sure it wasn't. The Ref signalled to the ball so I think he thought the defender got a touch, this would also explain why Scott wasn't booked. He may have thought there was contact after the tackle. I've watched the replay, it looks a blatant hand ball from the wrong side. The Linesman was the right side for it, but it seemed neither wanted to get involved with the game, just throws and the occasional offside. I really don't think we will be getting much luck when we defend our box for 45 minutes. The Linos are in constant contact with the referee for 90 minutes, through their headsets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1960maaan Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, Portland Bill said: The Linos are in constant contact with the referee for 90 minutes, through their headsets. I know, but they practically never make a decision. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 I'm still not sure on that pen. Hardly any contact and he throws himself to the floor which he does a lot tbh. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 Just now, 1960maaan said: I know, but they practically never make a decision. How do you know! The referee has the whistle, and they are communicating with him. They may be advising him on dozens of decisions for all we know. Thats how it works nowadays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1960maaan Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 5 minutes ago, Portland Bill said: How do you know! The referee has the whistle, and they are communicating with him. They may be advising him on dozens of decisions for all we know. Thats how it works nowadays. You still see Lino's flagging for things, so why would they flag for some decisions they make, and not others. It has been mentioned that some Refs ask for offsides and throws nothing else, hopefully current Ref's aren't that dictatorial , but who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archie andrews Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 54 minutes ago, Rocking Red Cyril said: Totally agree on both points. But when it's not going your way that's how desicions go . Over all pretty impressed with city's performance and I did like Martin and wells together up front There penalty appeal was no way a penalty, ever. What game did you flipping watch if martin was ok? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East Londoner Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 hour ago, GTFABM said: They should also of had a penalty so i think they evened themselves out. Game would’ve been different of course 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 12 minutes ago, archie andrews said: What game did you flipping watch if martin was ok? Agree he was bloody awful. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 39 minutes ago, Rocking Red Cyril said: I think var gives us our penalty and not there's . But var is also subjective to the opinion of those watching it . I still find it amazing how we can all watch the same game and see it differently Not there's? Baker cleans him out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pl00peh91 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 57 minutes ago, GrahamC said: Not arguing with your last point at all, but having seen the winner again, it is blatant. VAR would definitely have disallowed it. Is this the wrong time to mention that VAR would have ruled out our goal against Fulham? Edited October 20, 2021 by pl00peh91 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepy1968 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 34 minutes ago, Super said: I'm still not sure on that pen. Hardly any contact and he throws himself to the floor which he does a lot tbh. And that's probably why he'd miss out on a legitimate pen shout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numero Uno Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 hour ago, GrahamC said: Firstly, it’s a penalty. Their bloke trips Scott, who might tumble theatrically but it’s a foul, so it’s a penalty & if the ref really thinks not, then why doesn’t he book Scott for diving? So if we score that (not a given with our record, though as we are coming up to a year since we had one in the league then that isn’t based on too much), we are 2 up & I reckon we’d have held on. Secondly their winner is as clear a handball as you can get, poor by Bentley, we also should have done far better to stop the cross but I can’t believe that it was given. None of this excuses the result but we could certainly do with the rub of the green in a game at BS3. That's two injury time mishaps from our keeper in injury time at a cost of 3 points this season. Easy solution, get Max on after 88 minutes...... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossi the Robin Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 Looked stonewall to me. If we had scored that, the game would have completely changed and they probably wouldn’t have got one up the other end 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 37 minutes ago, 1960maaan said: You still see Lino's flagging for things, so why would they flag for some decisions they make, and not others. It has been mentioned that some Refs ask for offsides and throws nothing else, hopefully current Ref's aren't that dictatorial , but who knows. Sometimes it’s easier to shout “foul” in the refs earpiece, than it is to wave your flag about! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) Penalty for them was a less than convincing decision let's say, well perhaps it was but ours was equally as good a call. Surely a handball for the winner as well. When it rains, it can pour. Edited October 20, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 3 hours ago, pl00peh91 said: Is this the wrong time to mention that VAR would have ruled out our goal against Fulham? Yes, we got lucky there. However VAR might also have seen Chalobah was it, receive a 2nd yellow in the 1st half. Instead he was substituted at halftime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 Watched the highlights on Quest and rewound the winner a few times. Handball or upper arm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Its Smith Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 Don’t defend so deep and maybe we win the game 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2015 Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 I'm too disappointed to watch the highlights still. It feels like the club is a bit of a laughing stock in the Championship at the moment which hurts the most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 6 hours ago, Portland Bill said: How do you know! The referee has the whistle, and they are communicating with him. They may be advising him on dozens of decisions for all we know. Thats how it works nowadays. @1960maaanworth watch this. https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/9317262/collina-masterclass/more/13 Collina suggests the flags are mainly for the crowd now, and constant dialogue is going on instead. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh1t_ref_again Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 Watched the Scott reply many times on the sky sports highlights and could not tell 100% but think it looked a penalty. The reason the ref may not have give it, forest could have been moaning to the ref at half time about Scott going down so easy, which he does a lot and will have put doubt in the refs mind, any other player and I think he gives it. WTH was Baker thinking, experienced player and we had cover in the box Definite handball for winner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj77 Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 33 minutes ago, JonDolman said: Thought Baker made a bad error sliding in first half too when not needing to and they hit the post. I do like a centre back who likes to stay on their feet. Baker loves a sliding challenge doesn't he. He was offside as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midred Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 16 hours ago, Super said: I'm still not sure on that pen. Hardly any contact and he throws himself to the floor which he does a lot tbh. That works for a lot of players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS3_RED Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 18 hours ago, GTFABM said: James body checked their right back (i think). 2nd half I said we were lucky to get away with it at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 Finally watched them back. We were quite creative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gmac Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 And Wells’ shot was going in until the keeper pushed it on the the post. Should of been a corner, not that it would of made much difference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 19 hours ago, 1960maaan said: We are Lansdown just outside of the area, while I shouted for a Pen my mate was sure it wasn't. The Ref signalled to the ball so I think he thought the defender got a touch, this would also explain why Scott wasn't booked. He may have thought there was contact after the tackle. . The video is quite clear, the defender got nowhere near the ball and it was a clear trip. Who knows what might've happened had we established that two goal lead. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturny Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) 13 hours ago, And Its Smith said: Don’t defend so deep and maybe we win the game It really isn't complicated at all, this is just the answer. We were asking for it and got punished. Edited October 21, 2021 by Sturny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 15 hours ago, And Its Smith said: Don’t defend so deep and maybe we win the game The question you have to ask is why do we get so deep and how do you stop that happening. Long ball forward, player allowed to bring it down. Massengo senses the danger, but we aren’t deep here, are we? Slightly worrying that James is where he is but he’s probably marking their midfielder when the ball gets played forward, but he too senses he needs to get back. By this point, Atkinson has passed on his man to Massengo who is putting pressure on (no issues there). James trying to get back, has made up 3-4 yards on O’Dowda. James isn’t worried that “his man” hasn’t run forward, just senses he needs to get into shape. O’Dowda’s not doing much, Weimann just switching on. Taylor has been left to run offside, so we haven’t been sucked into to just running back, e.g. we aren’t going deep on purpose, but it’s a good crisp pass to Mighten. Forest LB looking to steal a run on Weimann. James now further back, O’Dowda in same spot. Weimann has let his man gain yards on him. James and Massengo getting back. Kalas more worried about Taylor than helping Tanner. Massengo now left to help Tanner, but he’s also got the man left by Weimann….not good by Weimann. O’Dowda not in the frame, although you could argue does he need to be? This kind of play happened too much. This time it resulted in a goal. Often in the second half it resulted in us being moved side to side as Forest probed our final third. They find gaps either between defence and midfield or midfield and attack, often with loose balls, or defensive headers. I can’t remember the long ball, but I do suspect James has been dragged short by his marker, but Massengo is in place. The ball wide was a good pass on the move and got us backtracking. My initial thought is we look a bit ragged in our shape from the long ball, but as it was in open play, you expect some fluidity. But it’s the 92nd minute, players like Weimann were knackered, etc, etc. What we do have to do (better) is stop the number of times opposition players get the chance to play unpressured passes into wide areas where we don’t have someone supporting Tanner or Dasilva. Back to pic 1, if Weimann if 5-7 yards deeper, the pass doesn’t go to Mighten, it probably goes back into midfield. Here’s the equaliser. It doesn’t need much commentary from me. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 24 minutes ago, Davefevs said: The question you have to ask is why do we get so deep and how do you stop that happening. Long ball forward, player allowed to bring it down. Massengo senses the danger, but we aren’t deep here, are we? Slightly worrying that James is where he is but he’s probably marking their midfielder when the ball gets played forward, but he too senses he needs to get back. By this point, Atkinson has passed on his man to Massengo who is putting pressure on (no issues there). James trying to get back, has made up 3-4 yards on O’Dowda. James isn’t worried that “his man” hasn’t run forward, just senses he needs to get into shape. O’Dowda’s not doing much, Weimann just switching on. Taylor has been left to run offside, so we haven’t been sucked into to just running back, e.g. we aren’t going deep on purpose, but it’s a good crisp pass to Mighten. Forest LB looking to steal a run on Weimann. James now further back, O’Dowda in same spot. Weimann has let his man gain yards on him. James and Massengo getting back. Kalas more worried about Taylor than helping Tanner. Massengo now left to help Tanner, but he’s also got the man left by Weimann….not good by Weimann. O’Dowda not in the frame, although you could argue does he need to be? This kind of play happened too much. This time it resulted in a goal. Often in the second half it resulted in us being moved side to side as Forest probed our final third. They find gaps either between defence and midfield or midfield and attack, often with loose balls, or defensive headers. I can’t remember the long ball, but I do suspect James has been dragged short by his marker, but Massengo is in place. The ball wide was a good pass on the move and got us backtracking. My initial thought is we look a bit ragged in our shape from the long ball, but as it was in open play, you expect some fluidity. But it’s the 92nd minute, players like Weimann were knackered, etc, etc. What we do have to do (better) is stop the number of times opposition players get the chance to play unpressured passes into wide areas where we don’t have someone supporting Tanner or Dasilva. Back to pic 1, if Weimann if 5-7 yards deeper, the pass doesn’t go to Mighten, it probably goes back into midfield. Here’s the equaliser. It doesn’t need much commentary from me. Seems to me an argument as why you bring on a fresh, untired striker near the end of games rather than midfielders with few defensive qualities. Unfortunately, we didn't have that option on the bench. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 6 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said: Seems to me an argument as why you bring on a fresh, untired striker near the end of games rather than midfielders with few defensive qualities. Unfortunately, we didn't have that option on the bench. Tis a very valid point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 Also, we are possibly seeing a slight impact of going back to 3/7 subs rather than 5/9. I actually think 7 is too many, but that’s another point. But you are probably looking at: - 1 gk, 1fb, 1cb, 1dm, 1am, 2fw or something like that. If you’re playing a back 3/5, you might go with one defender on the bench. etc, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 16 hours ago, And Its Smith said: Don’t defend so deep and maybe we win the game Been a problem from well before Pearson time here. Stems from not being able to defend from the front. This in turn is the result of not being able to maintain a pressing game - towards the latter stages of a game too many old legs can't maintain it - along with our struggle to keep hold of the ball at most stages of a game. Let alone at the death. I think we need players like Scott, Pring, Semenyo, HNM, Wells, Williams on the pitch to maintain a decent press high up the pitch and to prevent opposition teams from building pressure so easily from the back. As for holding on to the ball, these are well aid professional footballers and I would have thought passing to a teammate and holding the ball up was a pretty basic requirement of that job! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_eastender Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) What the highlights do not show is the build up to them getting runners into our box for the penalty. 20 seconds before just as the extra time gets announced on the tannoy, James wins the ball on the half-way line near the touch-line, passes 10 yards in field to Atkinson, who with nobody on him hoofs it into the stand level with half-way line. They then take quick throw and are running down our right flank. So: 1. Why did Atkinson do that? Can only be because he knows time is running short and panics. Even then if he was intent on hoofing it into the stands why not send it out well back into their half, so he and James can get back in defensive position? 2. Why is James (our captain) not yelling at Atkinson to hold the ball (with no pressure on him)? (maybe he did but I'll bet not) If Atkinson uses his head and keeps possession and even does something radical like pass to a teammate - even if backwards, they never get to launch that raid down the right hand side and we go on to win the game. Odd thing is Atkinson is probably our best central defender with the ball at his feet, it can only be a mental think because we have this monkey on our back. Edited October 21, 2021 by old_eastender 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Red Hat Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 3 minutes ago, old_eastender said: Why is James (our captain) ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ostrich Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 49 minutes ago, Davefevs said: The question you have to ask is why do we get so deep and how do you stop that happening. The first picture is an interesting one because you can make the argument either way. Either your back line needs to push up and not drop off like that or your midfield needs to be deeper and closer to the back line to stop the player being able to bring it down between the lines and get Notts running. 90th minute, you’re 1-0 up and knackered, I’d tend towards the latter. The problem there is it’s neither one thing nor the other, compounded by the fact there’s three players a few yards from each other in a vertical line rather than across the pitch, shape is all wrong. The less said about the last picture the better. A lack of pace is always an issue and it’s so glaring when I watch you. It can get you up the pitch and it will always create doubt in the oppositions mind about how much they can push on. But also I’ll be honest, I’m a bit disappointed with Matty James judging by what I read on here, doesn’t seem to get explicit criticism but a lot of the problems I read about Id expect less from a Championship side with Matty James in it. Maybe it’s unfair and what’s around him is a problem 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Red Hat Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Davefevs said: The question you have to ask is why do we get so deep and how do you stop that happening. Yep, this has been an issue for several seasons. I think there is a combination of Bentley not commanding his area and Kalas who seems to like to defend deep leading to us often ending up back in the 6 yard box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 25 minutes ago, Ostrich said: The first picture is an interesting one because you can make the argument either way. Either your back line needs to push up and not drop off like that or your midfield needs to be deeper and closer to the back line to stop the player being able to bring it down between the lines and get Notts running. 90th minute, you’re 1-0 up and knackered, I’d tend towards the latter. The problem there is it’s neither one thing nor the other, compounded by the fact there’s three players a few yards from each other in a vertical line rather than across the pitch, shape is all wrong. The less said about the last picture the better. A lack of pace is always an issue and it’s so glaring when I watch you. It can get you up the pitch and it will always create doubt in the oppositions mind about how much they can push on. But also I’ll be honest, I’m a bit disappointed with Matty James judging by what I read on here, doesn’t seem to get explicit criticism but a lot of the problems I read about Id expect less from a Championship side with Matty James in it. Maybe it’s unfair and what’s around him is a problem Without seeing the play before the highlight started I can’t really say how we got into that shape, but it wasn’t from a goal-kick. If it was I’d be horrified!!! Pace is so important….it’s why the last few games Wells has featured we’ve had a different dimension and able to stretch them the other way! A midfield with Williams and / or Massengo supporting James is different to Bakinson or King. Until Bournemouth James has been pretty sound, good positioning, anticipation to press, etc. he looked sluggish on Saturday. He was better on Tuesday, but a little exposed by Weimann and Scott being his partners, as their instincts are very different. Looking into the future I can see Semenyo playing a part with Wells, whether that is part of a two or a three I don’t know. At some point James, Massengo and Williams will start a game together. With Tanner, Dasilva, Kalas forming some of the back line, we suddenly look a bit more pacy. If we could get to something like this, I think we look very different. Bentley Tanner | Kalas | Atkinson or Baker | Dasilva Williams | James | Massengo Scott or Weimann | Wells | Semenyo Not necessarily a 433, just laying out defenders, midfielders, attack-minded players. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Red Hat Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 2 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Williams | James | Massengo I think that would be a terrific midfield, really strong and competitive, but its looking increasingly likely that Joe Williams has a major issue with his injury and I can see it never happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1960maaan Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 27 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said: Yep, this has been an issue for several seasons. I think there is a combination of Bentley not commanding his area and Kalas who seems to like to defend deep leading to us often ending up back in the 6 yard box. Someone said to me that Kalas looks a better defender when he's facing his own goal, last gasp tackles and interceptions are his stock in trade. As a 3, we have 2 brilliant defenders that lead, but by example. Atkinson is an intelligent footballing centre back, but it is his debut season at this level. We could do with him being the voice, setting the line we defend at. Playing alongside an International, and a vastly experienced defender it's gonna be hard. Bentley, with his build should dominate all his 18 yard box. He just isn't that type . He can , and has claimed good balls, but he's never going to dominate I think he is just too much of a confidence player, and a drop could finish him in a game. He does seem to shout, but IMO the Captain shouldn't be the only person to lead. Anyone is capable , not everyone feels comfortable, in giving instruction. It's been said countless times, you can't see 180 degrees and you have to rely on shouts from team mates. It's a small step for someone to set the line you defend, or try and push them out. Some of this should have come from the touchline. I wanted to see Flemming or Pearson or Simpson, whoever , screaming for us to push up 10-15 yards. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 4 minutes ago, JonDolman said: Someone I know blames Bentley but not so sure he could do much more there. His firm hands on it probably is why Taylor had to handball it as it came to him so fast. And obviously meant it should have been disallowed. It’s poor where he’s pushed it out to though….got to push it wider, not back out, but yes, through a crowd. Samba’s “save” for Scott’s goal was far worse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ostrich Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) 17 minutes ago, JonDolman said: Until Bournemouth James has been pretty sound, good positioning, anticipation to press, etc. he looked sluggish on Saturday. Doesn’t feel like that chimes with what’s being said about the team on here, in terms of not keeping the ball well enough and some of the basic possession/passing stats. It’s not solely down to one player to drag everyone else up and maybe in his absence it would be be even worse. Brendan always talks about Tielemans being his coach on the pitch and it usually follows that if Tielemans is shit, we’re shit, and if Tielemans isn’t playing, we really struggle to control the game and play meaningfully through midfield. He dictates how well we defend because he dictates our control of the game and he dictates how well we attack just because of his ability on the ball. I would expect James’ influence to be similar in this team (obviously he’s not at that level and is playing in a team with a different mindset but I think he could do similar, a bit like Grimes at Swansea has been in recent season) but possession stats are poor, pass completion is poor, the table based on expected goals is poor. For me, a lot of that stems from what your key central midfielder is doing. Edited October 21, 2021 by Ostrich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_eastender Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 6 minutes ago, JonDolman said: Not sure how that has happened but you quoted me saying something I haven't said But on the subject of Matty James, yep it was probably his 2nd below par performance this season. He's been very good most games and was very good midweek in a holding role. In how we pass the ball, James could easily be in a team that passes the ball well. It's more a mix of not always having the right players with him, but mainly due to how we play as a team which is hit it long to Martin. I hope it changes a bit, not necessarily going extreme pass it and never go long like how the new Swansea manager seems want to go, but we need to get it down and pass the ball more. Even in normal time our ball retention was woeful, at least until Massengo came on. We do have too many players who only want to hit soft passes, which are then either cut-out or leave the recipient of the pass with a man on immediately. They need to do some serious training hitting crisp firm passes! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 3 hours ago, Davefevs said: The question you have to ask is why do we get so deep and how do you stop that happening. Long ball forward, player allowed to bring it down. Massengo senses the danger, but we aren’t deep here, are we? Slightly worrying that James is where he is but he’s probably marking their midfielder when the ball gets played forward, but he too senses he needs to get back. By this point, Atkinson has passed on his man to Massengo who is putting pressure on (no issues there). James trying to get back, has made up 3-4 yards on O’Dowda. James isn’t worried that “his man” hasn’t run forward, just senses he needs to get into shape. O’Dowda’s not doing much, Weimann just switching on. Taylor has been left to run offside, so we haven’t been sucked into to just running back, e.g. we aren’t going deep on purpose, but it’s a good crisp pass to Mighten. Forest LB looking to steal a run on Weimann. James now further back, O’Dowda in same spot. Weimann has let his man gain yards on him. James and Massengo getting back. Kalas more worried about Taylor than helping Tanner. Massengo now left to help Tanner, but he’s also got the man left by Weimann….not good by Weimann. O’Dowda not in the frame, although you could argue does he need to be? This kind of play happened too much. This time it resulted in a goal. Often in the second half it resulted in us being moved side to side as Forest probed our final third. They find gaps either between defence and midfield or midfield and attack, often with loose balls, or defensive headers. I can’t remember the long ball, but I do suspect James has been dragged short by his marker, but Massengo is in place. The ball wide was a good pass on the move and got us backtracking. My initial thought is we look a bit ragged in our shape from the long ball, but as it was in open play, you expect some fluidity. But it’s the 92nd minute, players like Weimann were knackered, etc, etc. What we do have to do (better) is stop the number of times opposition players get the chance to play unpressured passes into wide areas where we don’t have someone supporting Tanner or Dasilva. Back to pic 1, if Weimann if 5-7 yards deeper, the pass doesn’t go to Mighten, it probably goes back into midfield. Here’s the equaliser. It doesn’t need much commentary from me. Looking at the pics makes me wish Pring had been brought on to support JD on the left. He'd still be an outlet, but would secure that side much better than any of the rest could. Even if that meant a 5-4-1 for the last 15 minutes, I'd much prefer that to what we ended up with which was Palmer and O'Dowda doing the foxtrot in the centre circle. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjak Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, JonDolman said: Thought Baker made a bad error sliding in first half too when not needing to and they hit the post. I do like a centre back who likes to stay on their feet. Baker loves a sliding challenge doesn't he. Baker is a good defender.....but he always looks like he is running in treacle, when he attempts to sprint. So he slides in to tackles to make up for his lack of pace.....and the consequence is what happened in the 90th minute. His protestation to the Ref was beyond lame. But it was defintely De Silva's pathetic defending that created the situation? Edited October 21, 2021 by maxjak 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 7 minutes ago, maxjak said: Baker is a good defender.....but he always looks like he is running in treacle, when he attempts to sprint. So he slides in to tackles to make up for his lack of pace.....and the consequence is what happened in the 90th minute. His protestation to the Ref was beyond lame. But it was defintely De Silva's pathetic defending that created the situation? For me this is collective, no way Dasilva’s fault imho. I posted the start pic earlier, so as it evolves: James too far away from the man who’s received the ball and travelling forward. Spence starts to make a run. Jay does not know whether to engage the man on the ball, track Spence, or what about Johnson, is Baker marking him or has he passed him on. The defensive line is crap, Kalas and Tanner deeper than the other 3 (JD, NB, RA). So you can start by blaming the collective 6. Massengo and Weimann fine of the rest of the midfield. Spence’s run is purposeful and now at full tilt. Dasilva on the turn, still not sure whether Baker has Johnson, has passed him on, or is trying to play outside. The pass is perfectly weighted. Spence is in full flight, Dasilva struggling. Baker’s line is now in front of Dasilva (he’s now marking Johnson), but also wrong side of the ball. He’ll pay for that 1 second later. And now we see Dasilva beaten through a combination of things, Spence’s pace, the timing of the pass, a foul and it’s a penalty. Baker is stuffed….and brings him down. So, imho, Dasilva part of a collective problem, and also how Forest found gaps between the lines (give them credit to). That’s my view anyway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveybadger Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 5 minutes ago, Davefevs said: For me this is collective, no way Dasilva’s fault imho. I posted the start pic earlier, so as it evolves: James too far away from the man who’s received the ball and travelling forward. Spence starts to make a run. Jay does not know whether to engage the man on the ball, track Spence, or what about Johnson, is Baker marking him or has he passed him on. The defensive line is crap, Kalas and Tanner deeper than the other 3 (JD, NB, RA). So you can start by blaming the collective 6. Massengo and Weimann fine of the rest of the midfield. Spence’s run is purposeful and now at full tilt. Dasilva on the turn, still not sure whether Baker has Johnson, has passed him on, or is trying to play outside. The pass is perfectly weighted. Spence is in full flight, Dasilva struggling. Baker’s line is now in front of Dasilva (he’s now marking Johnson), but also wrong side of the ball. He’ll pay for that 1 second later. And now we see Dasilva beaten through a combination of things, Spence’s pace, the timing of the pass, a foul and it’s a penalty. Baker is stuffed….and brings him down. So, imho, Dasilva part of a collective problem, and also how Forest found gaps between the lines (give them credit to). That’s my view anyway. Yup fair. All caused by or at least exacerbated by being knackered and having to defend most of the half, in part due to non-retention of the ball. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 6 minutes ago, steveybadger said: Yup fair. All caused by or at least exacerbated by being knackered and having to defend most of the half, in part due to non-retention of the ball. What about Forest who had been chasing the game for ninety minutes ? Surely they would have less energy ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo88 Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 47 minutes ago, maxjak said: Baker is a good defender.....but he always looks like he is running in treacle, when he attempts to sprint. So he slides in to tackles to make up for his lack of pace.....and the consequence is what happened in the 90th minute. His protestation to the Ref was beyond lame. But it was defintely De Silva's pathetic defending that created the situation? 26 minutes ago, Davefevs said: For me this is collective, no way Dasilva’s fault imho. I posted the start pic earlier, so as it evolves: James too far away from the man who’s received the ball and travelling forward. Spence starts to make a run. Jay does not know whether to engage the man on the ball, track Spence, or what about Johnson, is Baker marking him or has he passed him on. The defensive line is crap, Kalas and Tanner deeper than the other 3 (JD, NB, RA). So you can start by blaming the collective 6. Massengo and Weimann fine of the rest of the midfield. Spence’s run is purposeful and now at full tilt. Dasilva on the turn, still not sure whether Baker has Johnson, has passed him on, or is trying to play outside. The pass is perfectly weighted. Spence is in full flight, Dasilva struggling. Baker’s line is now in front of Dasilva (he’s now marking Johnson), but also wrong side of the ball. He’ll pay for that 1 second later. And now we see Dasilva beaten through a combination of things, Spence’s pace, the timing of the pass, a foul and it’s a penalty. Baker is stuffed….and brings him down. So, imho, Dasilva part of a collective problem, and also how Forest found gaps between the lines (give them credit to). That’s my view anyway. I’ve got to go with @maxjak with this. Watching it in real time replay Dasilva is very slow on the turn. He had a start on Spence and still never looked like getting to the ball first. To be a good full back you’ve got to have pace and power. Dasilva, although skilful, is a bit lacking in both Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjak Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 24 minutes ago, Davefevs said: For me this is collective, no way Dasilva’s fault imho. I posted the start pic earlier, so as it evolves: James too far away from the man who’s received the ball and travelling forward. Spence starts to make a run. Jay does not know whether to engage the man on the ball, track Spence, or what about Johnson, is Baker marking him or has he passed him on. The defensive line is crap, Kalas and Tanner deeper than the other 3 (JD, NB, RA). So you can start by blaming the collective 6. Massengo and Weimann fine of the rest of the midfield. Spence’s run is purposeful and now at full tilt. Dasilva on the turn, still not sure whether Baker has Johnson, has passed him on, or is trying to play outside. The pass is perfectly weighted. Spence is in full flight, Dasilva struggling. Baker’s line is now in front of Dasilva (he’s now marking Johnson), but also wrong side of the ball. He’ll pay for that 1 second later. And now we see Dasilva beaten through a combination of things, Spence’s pace, the timing of the pass, a foul and it’s a penalty. Baker is stuffed….and brings him down. So, imho, Dasilva part of a collective problem, and also how Forest found gaps between the lines (give them credit to). That’s my view anyway. Maybe i am not looking at the big enough picture, and am being too harsh on Dasilva.....but he IS brushed aside, as if he isn't there, and is totally ineffective. Of course it is the culmination of a general malaise within the squad, which through a combination of tiredness and poor judgement let Forest waltz through unimpeded. I suppose ultimately, Baker's ridiculous attempted tackle is the final Nail in the inevitable coffin of our defending ? Ha! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 Just now, pongo88 said: I’ve got to go with @maxjak with this. Watching it in real time replay Dasilva is very slow on the turn. He had a start on Spence and still never looked like getting to the ball first. To be a good full back you’ve got to have pace and power. Dasilva, although skilful, is a bit lacking in both One is running flat out in one direction (Spence), the other is on the half turn because of what’s happening in front and just behind (Dasilva). He’s exposed because of multiple things. He doesn’t do well himself (agreed), but it’s a combination of factors….it is not solely Dasilva’s “pathetic defending”. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevedon Red Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 6 minutes ago, pongo88 said: I’ve got to go with @maxjak with this. Watching it in real time replay Dasilva is very slow on the turn. He had a start on Spence and still never looked like getting to the ball first. To be a good full back you’ve got to have pace and power. Dasilva, although skilful, is a bit lacking in both I made the exact same observation he’s certainly lost his pace recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveybadger Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 2 hours ago, Major Isewater said: What about Forest who had been chasing the game for ninety minutes ? Surely they would have less energy ? I always think it’s harder defending than attacking, if playing a team that moves the ball well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Clevedon Red said: I made the exact same observation he’s certainly lost his pace recently. I thought leading up to Millwall where he rolled his ankle blocking a cross and had to come off, he was looking like getting back to his best form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevedon Red Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 12 hours ago, Davefevs said: I thought leading up to Millwall where he rolled his ankle blocking a cross and had to come off, he was looking like getting back to his best form. On Tuesday a couple of times he just lacked the pace of previous. Hopefully with more matches under his belt he’ll regain it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 15 hours ago, Major Isewater said: What about Forest who had been chasing the game for ninety minutes ? Surely they would have less energy ? While chasing is hard, defending for long periods without the ball is too. Mentally, physically- we haven't retained it well enough for long enough in recent weeks. It can be exhausting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 On 21/10/2021 at 03:26, billywedlock said: Well until we are able to play out from the back we are going to be chasing the ball all day . This has to be changed . Atkinson and James should be able to manage that . I'd say we have the personnel to do it better. Bentley in goal, and then Kalas also actually at least in a conservative and safe way has useful passing stats when given the chance. When we have a fit CM 3 of James, Massengo, Williams you can start to see the basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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