The Pearson Debate - Something Not Mentioned Yet…

[Harry]

I’ve had a long break from otib. But I’ve conceded and just had to come back given the debate of late. 
 

Firstly, let me be quite clear on this. I don’t want to see Pearson sacked, but he has an awful lot to prove, for me.
 

However, there is something that I’ve not seen mentioned in the Pearson debate/state of the club debate in these recent turgid weeks. 
 

Recruitment. 
And specifically, the Recruitment Department. 
 

Let me explain. When Pearson arrived, we’d been a few years down the line of a pretty horrendous player recruitment process. You all know my thoughts on Ashton (and I’m glad you all finally saw what I was telling you all 4/5 years ago!). 
The recruitment team basically consisted of Ashton and…..ummmm, no one else. He was the CEO, but was essentially acting as the Director Of Football, the Head of Recruitment and the Chief Scout, all rolled into one. Too much power for one man. Yes we know, we’ve been through that story all summer and autumn. 
 

Once he departed, what were we left with. Well, you’ll see it was made very clear in the Post article a couple of weeks ago. We have a chap called Sean Gilhespy and he has a team of 3 or 4 data analysts and a couple of interns. Yep. That’s your lot. Gilhespy himself was historically a data analyst too. 
So in short, we’ve got 4 guys and a couple of unpaid uni-leavers who all come from a background of number crunching and data slicing. Yes, they’ve all done their uni courses in football analytics, but none of them have any experience of professional football, nor of actual player talent identification. 

Gilhespy is now the person who is taking the calls from the agents and is the first port of call for any recruitment queries, player availability, transfer talk etc. 
Now, if I was to tell you that I know a number of agents in the game, all with a healthy bounty of players, and I said to you that Mr Gilhespy doesn’t answer his phone or his emails, you might be pretty disappointed. 
I have no cross to bear and no reason to doubt that Mr Gilhespy is a nice enough chap and may well be a good data cruncher, but he is not the person who should be talking to agents about player transfers. I know through these agents with whom I have contact that he is seen as utterly useless and completely out of his depth. Data cruncher - no problem. Acting Head of Recruitment - wow!!! Unreal. 
 

I think, though I can’t be 100% sure, that we are probably the only professional football club in the country who doesn’t currently have a Head of Recruitment or Chief Scout. That is the real scandal that is currently going on at our club. We’ve got a chap who did a uni course on football data analysis as our Head of Recruitment and 3 of his data crunching pals running the show. We’ve got an absolute amateur in charge of taking calls from agents, which he invariably doesn’t answer. It’s an utter utter shambles. 
Steve Lansdown seems to be happy continuing with this amateur recruitment set up that Ashton left him with, a set up which SL is probably happy with as he thinks we’re finding gems from an in-house database and not having to talk to those dirty agents touting their players around. Oh, how sweet and innocent. **** your morals Steve. This is football. You alone are not going to change the moral fibre of this sport. If you want to run a recruitment department which ignores player agents then you’ll always be 24th in line in this division for a players signature. 
 

Let’s bring this back to Pearson. 
We all know the Leicester story. Nige was a strong manager, with trusted assistants, but backed up with a head of recruitment in Steve Walsh, who pretty much signed the title winning team. 
The recruitment position is so so essential. Without Steve Walsh and Craig Shakespeare, Nige doesn’t put that Leicester team in the position he got them. That’s not to play down his achievements, Nige clearly had a major influence on that squad, but he was not responsible for putting that squad together and he also had an assistant coach, without whom he hasn’t really achieved any modicum of success (for reference, look at Pearson’s record with and without Shakespeare). It ain’t very pretty. 

Fast forward to February 2021. Pearson joins us. It’s clear that Ashton is departing. It’s clear that Pearson is a manager who needs his trusted back room team. We know for an absolute fact that Pearson is not a man who likes/wants to deal with agents. It’s clear that we are under financial constraints. 
Given all of that, what’s the most important thing we needed. Yep, you’ve guessed it - a Head of Recruitment. 
I must confess, I was absolutely amazed that we didn’t manage to bring Steve Walsh in. He should have been the first person SL needed to call once Ashton was on his way. 
We’ve left a huge void in one of the most important roles at a football club. Even more so given what was required and the financial situation. 
 

Ultimately we’ve made 7 signings so far under Nige. 3 of them were clearly his own call from the Leicester connections. Obviously 2 young prospects with very very little pro football on their cv’s. But we have to add Weimann and Baker too, both of whom should easily have been released. Both were on high wages and hadn’t really proven anything over the previous season or 2. Yes, they both took pay cuts, but they are still incredibly handsomely paid and still 2 of the higher earners we have. 
Both should have gone. But the problem was this - we had no head of recruitment. So we had no idea of any other players we could realistically have brought in to replace them. So I’d imagine Nige had to reluctantly accept their return - there was nothing else on the table!! 
 

If we’d employed a proper experienced head of recruitment when Nige joined in Feb, and also employed some proper experienced talent spotters (ie Scouts and a Chief Scout) to actually physically get out there and watch 10-20 games a week, rather than crunch some numbers on a computer, we might’ve given Nige a very different looking squad this season. 
 

The simple fact that we have a Manager who doesn’t like the recruitment/agent side of the game, a new CEO who isn’t particularly responsible or experienced in that part of the game and a data crunching head of recruitment who ignores calls from agents, topped off with an owner who seems to actively encourage us to steer away from those pesky agents and try to implement our own holier than thou model, basically puts us at the bottom of the list for player availability. 
There were plentiful deals that could have been had in the summer had we acted early enough or shown any semblance of interest in, and we could’ve improved this squad without having to shell out high wages to 2 returning players and 2 other 35 year old has-beens. 
The fact there is a tight financial situation is the very reason we shouldn’t have signed Simpson, King, Baker & Weimann. It’s the very reason we needed proper experienced people running the summer recruitment and dealing with the players and agents, the very reason we should’ve been in conversation for the best deals we could possibly get rather than ignoring the calls and thinking we could do things our own way. 
 

Nige has effectively signed 7 players. 5 or 6 of them featured in pretty much every game this season. So whilst this is still far from being “nigels squad”, half of the outfield first team each week IS his squad. 
Therefore, yes, we can begin to judge Nige on this teams performances as he has 7 of his own players around him and he really really should have been doing much better than what’s gone so far.

But, in his defence, he’s being handed an absolute shit-show of a recruitment team. 
 

My thoughts - Pearson will be given time. No doubt.  But he should rightly take some flak for performances this season. He really should be getting more fight from these players. But, we are going absolutely nowhere - correction, we are going backwards at a rate of knots, until we get a proper recruitment team on board. 

Lansdown needs to pull out whatever stops he can, and bring in a Head of Recruitment as a matter of absolute urgency. This needs to be supplemented by a host of scouts (not just 2 or 3 part-timers, we need countless bodies in every area of the country, an army of scouts watching 20+ games a week between them and reporting to a Chief) - actual physical scouts going and watching players and having conversations with agents and other scouts at games - it’s called networking. And you can’t get that from looking at a bunch of numbers on a screen. Without that network, there is zero relationships, and without relationships with agents, you are bottom of the list when it comes to an agent placing their player with a new club. 

I have zero problem with the data analysts. It’s a perfectly valid part of the modern game. But they shouldn’t be the first port of call on player recruitment. They should be there to back up any scouting reports, not to be the instigators of player ID. And Sean the number crunching shy-guy certainly shouldn’t be the person responsible for speaking to the agents. 
 

This is where change is paramount. And must be effected immediately. 
Everything else that’s being argued about on here is purely secondary - without a properly functioning recruitment team, we will go backwards, fast. 
 

Anyway - good to be back.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Harry

[cidered abroad]

Wow!!!!!

[Rocking Red Cyril]

Welcome back. Well sounds like you are not totally convinced by anything at present happening at the club presently. Where we have to defer opinion as you seem better informed on the recruitment staffs ability's. I not sure what to think. I feel the rebuild of club structure and players is at least a 5 season job. And we going to see it rough and bumpy at times, as it is at present. But I have a hope that we have started to see moves in the right direction with players and the backroom and higher members of staff. But it is only the start. So just hope it all worth it in the end. I am city till I die so what will happen will happen.

COYR

[Guest pedigree]

On 22/09/2021 at 16:25, Eddie Hitler said:

Wakefield.

 

Edit: I read that in the paper within the last fortnight.

I never post on here. But so much to agree with. Harry and DaveFevs, in different ways, seem quite a step ahead of the club. 

[Lrrr]

it’s been clear from your posting for a long time you have an axe to grind with recruitment analysis and data analysts as much as you try to say you don’t here it’s still evident from the way you write it. 
 

[RedNachos]

Brilliant read and I echo nearly everything you've said, with resigning weiman being the only exception. Getting a quality dof is the biggest priority for us at the moment. I'd hope we look in scandanavia and mimick Brentford's recruitment. 

[Harry]

9 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

it’s been clear from your posting for a long time you have an axe to grind with recruitment analysis and data analysts as much as you try to say you don’t here it’s still evident from the way you write it. 
 

I had a huge axe to grind when Ashton was here as I knew exactly what his game was and that it wasn’t healthy for this club. I had personal dealings with him and knew he was a rotter. 
And now I have an axe to grind because Lansdown has let the club go from 1 man controlling everything to no one in control of recruitment at all. 
I don’t have anything against the data analysts whatsoever. They are a perfectly normal part of the modern game. 
But I do have a mountainous problem with a data analyst running the whole recruitment department and not taking phone calls from agents. 
Do you agree that a proper Head of Recruitment is needed? 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Harry

[Midlands Robin]

The big problem as I see it with the "Lansdown model" is how can it work without a scouting network deeply embedded within the game?

If that is missing then how are we supposed to locate these players that other clubs have missed, snap them up for a bargain price and develop them into assets worth multiple millions?

on the flip side of the coin, Atkinson and Tanner both look like great signings who do fit the mold of the type of player we should be signing. Tanner was signed as that archetypal young player who we could mold into a first team regular and within a week or two he's already in the first team and starting.

That says something positive about our recruitment process if those two are anything to go by.

It would definitely appear that we have a significant amount of work to do to broaden and deepen our scouting and recruiting team but it can't be all bad if Atkinson and Tanner are anything to go by.

[Henry]

Good to see you back @Harry

My gut feeling was that a head of recruitment was being looked at in the summer, quite possibly Steve Walsh, but I believe he is currently in a job. When no one was appointed, I assumed that was because the people we were after, weren’t available or didn’t want to come, but the hunt remained.

When the Bristol Post story came out last week about the data guys, it did feel like a PR stunt by the club,

Do you think we are actually after anyone for that role? 

[Guest]

And now to give a fuller description of this fella Sean Gilhespy:

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/inside-bristol-citys-recruitment-team-6030875

It's not full of the emotional baggage Harry seems to carry around, which on occasion seems to be a chip on the shoulder, but maybe City are a bit more discerning on the agents they talk too and Harry's 'agent acquaintances' aren't on City's, so don't get their calls returned?

The article gives a fuller insight to recruitment at City. Not traditional and probably not to everyones liking, but nor are Harry's personal ramblings about how he thinks recruitment should be done.

[Cidre Monita]

37 minutes ago, bcfcfinker said:

And now to give a fuller description of this fella Sean Gilhespy:

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/inside-bristol-citys-recruitment-team-6030875

It's not full of the emotional baggage Harry seems to carry around, which on occasion seems to be a chip on the shoulder, but maybe City are a bit more discerning on the agents they talk too and Harry's 'agent acquaintances' aren't on City's, so don't get their calls returned?

The article gives a fuller insight to recruitment at City. Not traditional and probably not to everyones liking, but nor are Harry's personal ramblings about how he thinks recruitment should be done.

City recruit is far from best in class . The current set up is only partially fit for purpose .  It has gaping holes . It needs upgrading ASAP . 

[Oh Louie louie]

20 odd years now we have had sl.

Look where we are.

A dogfight.

Imagine another 20 years of this

 

[Mendip City]

2 hours ago, Oh Louie louie said:

20 odd years now we have had sl.

Look where we are.

A dogfight.

Imagine another 20 years of this

 

As ever, it all leads back to SL. He’s invested… just not often well and I wonder what desire for success he has left in him. We’ve had 20 years of getting nowhere fast… but so has he. 

[Red Army 75]

Good to see you back @Harry. 

[exAtyeoMax]

4 hours ago, bcfcfinker said:

And now to give a fuller description of this fella Sean Gilhespy:

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/inside-bristol-citys-recruitment-team-6030875

It's not full of the emotional baggage Harry seems to carry around, which on occasion seems to be a chip on the shoulder, but maybe City are a bit more discerning on the agents they talk too and Harry's 'agent acquaintances' aren't on City's, so don't get their calls returned?

The article gives a fuller insight to recruitment at City. Not traditional and probably not to everyones liking, but nor are Harry's personal ramblings about how he thinks recruitment should be done.

I don’t see the benefit of only talking to certain agents? You’d always be missing out on certain players…it doesn’t make sense. I’m sure it does happen in other clubs where Brian doesn’t like talking to Jeff the Agent because he is a bit of a scallywag but you need to rise above that, it’s business! You employ the right people to deal with agents.

[SuperRed]

Given the money wasted on players, it baffles me why Lansdown has not used his money to create an elite recruitment department. Go and study how those sides that overachieve through good recruitment do it and identify the best person you possibly can to run it. It seems like a no brainer. Instead we’re nearly 20 years into Lansdown’s reign and we have a recruitment department made up of a small group of analysts / interns! 

Edited October 25, 2021 by SuperRed

[054123]

5 hours ago, bcfcfinker said:

And now to give a fuller description of this fella Sean Gilhespy:

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/inside-bristol-citys-recruitment-team-6030875

It's not full of the emotional baggage Harry seems to carry around, which on occasion seems to be a chip on the shoulder, but maybe City are a bit more discerning on the agents they talk too and Harry's 'agent acquaintances' aren't on City's, so don't get their calls returned?

The article gives a fuller insight to recruitment at City. Not traditional and probably not to everyones liking, but nor are Harry's personal ramblings about how he thinks recruitment should be done.

Either way you’d be awfully naïve to not fully recognise just what ‘rebuild’ actually means.

The next few years is going to be a bumpy road and if a ‘bad 7 days’ gives you the shits then it might be best you look away now.

Edited October 25, 2021 by 054123

[Oh Louie louie]

Reading between the lines nige has asked for a couple of seasons,

But if sls, pleading poverty again next season, not going to work.

He does this every few years.

[Major Isewater]

What’s the point in paying a Head of Recruitment when we haven’t got any money to bring anyone in? 
 

[Oh Louie louie]

Many pundits are suggesting it will take newcastle 4 years to challenge.

What chance do we have going on this seasons budget.

 

 

[exAtyeoMax]

13 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

What’s the point in paying a Head of Recruitment when we haven’t got any money to bring anyone in? 
 

Scouting the lower/non leagues? 

[Red Exile]

42 minutes ago, 054123 said:

Either way you’d be awfully naïve to not fully recognise just what ‘rebuild’ actually means.

The next few years is going to be a bumpy road and if a ‘bad 7 days’ gives you the shits then it might be best you look away now.

I agree - and goodness knows we've been in worse places than this in the past. The joy of this season would be seeing some young stars of the future emerge...and avoiding relegation.

However, I find it harder to get excited about the Lansdown 'rebuilds'...each appears to be followed by a squandering of the opportunities and back to square one. The last rebuild - under SOD and Cotts put us in a great position. SL threw it away. The temptation to 'look away' gets greater each time it happens.

[054123]

33 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

What’s the point in paying a Head of Recruitment when we haven’t got any money to bring anyone in? 
 

It’s a fair point but if you are looking to build a business, where and when do you start?

 

[exAtyeoMax]

1 minute ago, 054123 said:

It’s a fair point but if you are looking to build a business, where and when do you start?

 

Set the processes in place, and start looking. Not much point waiting around or you’d miss out when the time comes.

[KegCity]

36 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

What’s the point in paying a Head of Recruitment when we haven’t got any money to bring anyone in? 
 

To find targets in the lower leagues that are affordable (Tanner etc) and to identify players that we'd look to bring in at a later date when there's more money available. Preparation and planning are never bad things.

[ExiledAjax]

As I remember, under Ashton we used scouting software/player database stuff licensed to us by a company he owns. IIRC that was implemented when he was a consultant with us, and then also used whilst he was CEO. The article with Gilhespy says we have "our own" database, but doesn't elaborate on that very much.

My question to @Harry - do you know if we still use Ashton's stuff, or did that get canned when Ashton left?

[Oh Louie louie]

We keep signing players from that level.

What seems more likely?

A we get promoted,

B we end up in the lower leauges.

 

[exAtyeoMax]

7 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

We keep signing players from that level.

What seems more likely?

A we get promoted,

B we end up in the lower leauges.

 

hence the need for ‘talent’ spotters

[Oh Louie louie]

That is true max.

But i dunno does that warrant a wage for say 2 or 3 signings a year?

I dont think so.

And if thats his remt, sl may as well walk away now.

[Robbored]

Where have you been Harry?     

[exAtyeoMax]

1 minute ago, Oh Louie louie said:

That is true max.

But i dunno does that warrant a wage for say 2 or 3 signings a year?

I dont think so.

And if thats his remt, sl may as well walk away now.

Those two or three signings could make all the difference though…

It’s been discussed on here for many years how investment has appeared to have been lacking in what most clubs would appear to be key…such as manager role, coaching, recruitment. I find it really bizarre that the board haven’t invested (or won’t) in those areas. It seems so kin obvious to me. Too much reliance on data and stats without the correct people analysing it, football experts - not data experts. 

[Oh Louie louie]

You could see the gulf on saturday tbf max.

Some of these guys are straight out the prem.

I agree the two defenders we did sign from the lower leauges look good.

[RedRock]

For a Club with a strategy like ours, not investing in the very best scouting network of knowledgeable talent spotters, with an experienced Head of Scouting is near criminal. Been saying it for years.

We seem to focus almost all our development resources on the Academy. 
 

So Tins, can we have some oven-ready strikers, wingers and a couple of Gerry Gow like midfielders please? Like, now.
 

Isn’t going to happen. 
 

[chinapig]

2 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Those two or three signings could make all the difference though…

It’s been discussed on here for many years how investment has appeared to have been lacking in what most clubs would appear to be key…such as manager role, coaching, recruitment. I find it really bizarre that the board haven’t invested (or won’t) in those areas. It seems so kin obvious to me. Too much reliance on data and stats without the correct people analysing it, football experts - not data experts. 

You need analytical expertise these days but as a retired analyst I have posted before that the role of analysts in any line of work is to support the subject experts in their decision making. Analysts should not be making the decisions. Though managers sometimes want an analytical model to do it for them you should always push back.

I would be amazed if Nigel did not see the need for a head of recruitment who is a football expert with the necessary contacts. Let's hope we recruit one asap.

Meanwhile Steve has put a lot into physical infrastructure but neglects the recruitment infrastructure. It's the equivalent of Hargreaves Lansdown building palatial offices but not recruiting financial experts to run the business.

[exAtyeoMax]

8 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

You could see the gulf on saturday tbf max.

Some of these guys are straight out the prem.

I agree the two defenders we did sign from the lower leauges look good.

Yes…but but there are prem players who have come from lower/non league…

[exAtyeoMax]

2 minutes ago, chinapig said:

You need analytical expertise these days but as a retired analyst I have posted before that the role of analysts in any line of work is to support the subject experts in their decision making. Analysts should not be making the decisions. Though managers sometimes want an analytical model to do it for them you should always push back.

I would be amazed if Nigel did not see the need for a head of recruitment who is a football expert with the necessary contacts. Let's hope we recruit one asap.

Meanwhile Steve has put a lot into physical infrastructure but neglects the recruitment infrastructure. It's the equivalent of Hargreaves Lansdown building palatial offices but not recruiting financial experts to run the business.

I’m sure Nige does. He would’ve been used to working in a more traditional manner. 
 

We keep being told that specific players are really fast and have the best overall stats but then can’t deliver on the pitch…there’s obviously pieces missing from the jigsaw

[robin_unreliant]

I'd like to know whether Brentford have a big network of scouts as they have got recruitment right. I'm not sure but had the impression they based it on analysis. 

[Taz]

4 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Yes…but but there are prem players who have come from lower/non league…

That's a fair point tbf, and actually should be THE point. 

A club in our position is never going to spend the cash needed for a sustained attack on promotion, that's been made quite clear. The few times we have spent a bit more than normal, we end up nowhere and have expensive flops to get rid of (Engval, Diony - although thankfully he was a loan) and/or experienced players that are past their best (Kilkenny and Brunt immediately come to mind).

What we are counting on is finding the next Watkins, Tony, Vardy, even Webster. Calculated gambles that are cheap, can easily make the step up, but have the potential to make the step above again. Either in the hope that they're with us still, or to be sold on for a pretty penny.

We're ploughing money into the academy, which is great, but we need to start producing the talent to show that it's actually worth it. Yes we have a few promising players coming through, but are they really good enough to hold their own consistently at this level, or above? To be honest/fair, we don't have the history of being able to do this (yet). Yes we have exceptions like Bryan and Reid in recent years, but that's not enough to warrant the cash being pumped into the "project" to borrow a phrase from LJ/MA.

I'm holding onto the hope that Pearson knows what his long term strategy is, and he is making moves to put the right people in place behind the scenes to help things kick onto the next level. What is worrying is the results on the pitch though. I don't think anybody is, or ever was under any illusions that this season was going to be tough, and most would except a position somewhere between 10th - 18th, but with that in mind we need to see improvement on the pitch. We started to, but currently we're looking more like the team that lost interest last season. Let's just hope that it's a blip in that respect, but the home form HAS to change soon.

Going back to the point about lower league players, unfortunately you need the right people in place to spot the talent, otherwise you end up joining them in those leagues.

We really do seem to be caught in the middle at the moment. If we're not careful, finding players to compete at the championship level won't be a huge issue, because we'll be below this level.

[tin]

1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

What’s the point in paying a Head of Recruitment when we haven’t got any money to bring anyone in? 
 

Major, we’re paying Simpson and Downing six-figure annual salaries. Freeing up one of those roles much earlier in order to pay a HoR would’ve been a far wiser strategy IMO.

Welcome back, @Harry

Edited October 25, 2021 by tin

[GrahamC]

16 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said:

I'd like to know whether Brentford have a big network of scouts as they have got recruitment right. I'm not sure but had the impression they based it on analysis. 

Their owner has a company that does this stuff.

When Chris Wilder was at Sheff U he said he’d need 300 scouts just to compete with it.

Think we forget about Brentford’s model & find our own one..

[exAtyeoMax]

17 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said:

I'd like to know whether Brentford have a big network of scouts as they have got recruitment right. I'm not sure but had the impression they based it on analysis. 

Yes but who was analysing the data? 

[1960maaan]

Because I know no one, or nothing, I can't argue with anyone that says they know something. All I can say thanks for the insight, the info and the heads up.

Things I've heard or read, some of which may be right, or not.

Steve Walsh had not long started a new job in the MLS when Pearson was appointed. So little chance of getting him in straight away. I think many hoped he would come straight away, but then we aren't Everton fans (not remembered fondly).

When Mark Ashton took his amazing Ego away to Ipswich , he took some backroom staff. It looks like Nige is in the process of building his own version it seems. Medical & conditioning has been sorted, it looks like changes to the coaching staff are imminent and as we Can't sign anyone until Jan, maybe recruitment may be further down the line. 

In my opinion, and I have no proof , Nige is restructuring the club inside and out. I guess I should say on and off the pitch , same thing . As we are unable to change things in one fell swoop, I do think he may change the recruitment set up at some stage. May bring in a Director of Football, or head of recruitment. TBH I'd be surprised if he doesn't. But the way things are going, that is the least of his worries ATM. If/when form and results pick up, it may give him the time to sort off field things. The article makes it seem like we are less scattergun than we appeared under Johnson at least.

Great thought provoking post @Harry, and an interesting article @bcfcfinker.

[Kid in the Riot]

I reckon Walsh may already be advising on a formal, or more likely informal, basis.

As he's working in the MLS, I wouldn't see a conflict with him recommending a couple of players to Nige, as very few players would be interested in going to the US as wages are higher here. 

Atkinson and Tanner are the types of player that I don't think would have been picked up by our recruitment team because their career stats weren't particularly outstanding prior to joining. 

Both those players do though very much fit the profile of Walsh signings, who like Nige, I'm sure has a network of scouts that he knows and speaks to regularly about certain players. 

In terms of who's speaking to agents, that is of course Richard Gould's job, not Sean Gillespy. If agent's want to tout their players to the club then they need to phone Gould! 

[Bristol Rob]

35 minutes ago, tin said:

Major, we’re paying Simpson and Downing six-figure annual salaries. Freeing up one of those roles much earlier in order to pay a HoR would’ve been a far wiser strategy IMO.

Welcome back, @Harry

Seems an apt time to drop this back in.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-8262315/Physios-191-000-kit-men-56-000-Crazy-wages-dont-add-EFL-clubs-brink.html

Apologies that it from the Mail.

Note these are all pre pandemic numbers.

[mjd]

Good post  return Harry . Gave me something to think about,  how our club has been handled over these last few season.

[Waconda]

Alongside the coaching set up, this may well change in the next few weeks - IMO

 

[Tin Soldier]

@Harry thread just confirms what a mess the club is in. SL has built the stadium but ultimately allowed Ashton to **** up the team.

[italian dave]

Welcome back @Harry, good to hear from you again.

Really interesting, and clearly something you know and care about.

One thing that worries me on this is that I doubt this is something we can just leave until the next/summer transfer window and don’t need in place now. I imagine (and I’ve heard previous managers confirm) that recruitment takes considerable planning and time.
It’s not like the weekly shop; make a list the night before then go out on the 1st Jan and buy a player. Those manager have spoken about identifying, tracking, monitoring targets taking months or years before they are signed. Presumably that’s not happening - or if it is any new incumbent might have different ideas. 

I always felt that the “signings” of Weimann and Baker felt odd. Never really known that happen before - although covid effect on the market has never happened before. And you have to say that neither signing has been a success so far. 

[Bris Red]

A great post and it echo’s the small snippets of info that i have been told by a source i have at the club..

It’s a concern and i think we have to look at this realistically, Pearson hasn’t got the network of people around him that he in reality needs to be successful. I would love Nige to succeed but you just hope that he can get in the personnel needs into the club.

Edited October 25, 2021 by bris red

[marmite]

Just a couple of points to throw in here with no agenda either way. 

Richard Gould, our CEO, is heavily involved with recruitment as he stated at  the Senior Reds lunch last Thursday. He also stated that the Brentford model was not one he wanted our club to follow as it is not all it appears on the surface!! He didn't elaborate on that so judge for yourself. 

 

 

[Clutton Caveman]

9 hours ago, Midlands Robin said:

The big problem as I see it with the "Lansdown model" is how can it work without a scouting network deeply embedded within the game?

If that is missing then how are we supposed to locate these players that other clubs have missed, snap them up for a bargain price and develop them into assets worth multiple millions?

on the flip side of the coin, Atkinson and Tanner both look like great signings who do fit the mold of the type of player we should be signing. Tanner was signed as that archetypal young player who we could mold into a first team regular and within a week or two he's already in the first team and starting.

That says something positive about our recruitment process if those two are anything to go by.

It would definitely appear that we have a significant amount of work to do to broaden and deepen our scouting and recruiting team but it can't be all bad if Atkinson and Tanner are anything to go by.

We don't have one football man in our senior leadership team, just a bunch of business managers. THAT is the problem

[exAtyeoMax]

3 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Welcome back @Harry, good to hear from you again.

Really interesting, and clearly something you know and care about.

One thing that worries me on this is that I doubt this is something we can just leave until the next/summer transfer window and don’t need in place now. I imagine (and I’ve heard previous managers confirm) that recruitment takes considerable planning and time.
It’s not like the weekly shop; make a list the night before then go out on the 1st Jan and buy a player. Those manager have spoken about identifying, tracking, monitoring targets taking months or years before they are signed. Presumably that’s not happening - or if it is any new incumbent might have different ideas. 

I always felt that the “signings” of Weimann and Baker felt odd. Never really known that happen before - although covid effect on the market has never happened before. And you have to say that neither signing has been a success so far. 

Mashton and LJ used to talk about giving a list of what they wanted/what was required, didn’t appear to be thought out and planned well in advance in a lot of cases…

[Rob k]

Good post but for me I’d ask what was your expectations for this season?

Mine was a season of low quality with an attempt at making us harder to beat, we are still a way off that but slowly getting there.

What we don’t know what the culture behind the scenes is like, and this is why NP has gone to tried and tested men, it may not work on the pitch but if things are that badly broken we need to start somewhere, it no secret that NP is clearly not happy with some of them, remember recruitment is about being able to shift some on which he’s clearly not been able to do.

As another mate alluded too, NP may not be here when we start seeing his work come to fruition . 

 

 

[italian dave]

3 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Mashton and LJ used to talk about giving a list of what they wanted/what was required, didn’t appear to be thought out and planned well in advance in a lot of cases…

I can’t remember individuals, but I’m sure there were instances where we signed players and were told they’d been on our radar for years. Didn’t we first spot HNM as a 15/16 year old? I’m sure there’s short term and panic buys mixed in too though! 

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I don’t see the benefit of only talking to certain agents? You’d always be missing out on certain players…it doesn’t make sense. I’m sure it does happen in other clubs where Brian doesn’t like talking to Jeff the Agent because he is a bit of a scallywag but you need to rise above that, it’s business! You employ the right people to deal with agents.

There is one good reason why you only talk to certain agents….it’s when you are greasing each other’s palms.  All alleged of course but there was rumour of £600k of Agent fees in the Engvall transfer.  I’d love to see what payments from football clubs have filtered their way through Tactical Change Ltd, Grove Life, Player P.A and Calibre Sports over the years.

2 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

As I remember, under Ashton we used scouting software/player database stuff licensed to us by a company he owns. IIRC that was implemented when he was a consultant with us, and then also used whilst he was CEO. The article with Gilhespy says we have "our own" database, but doesn't elaborate on that very much.

My question to @Harry - do you know if we still use Ashton's stuff, or did that get canned when Ashton left?

Implemented in 2012(ish), then thrown out under SOD / Burt.  I’m sure he re-introduced it upon his return once Cotts was sacked and then Burt removed too.

In all honesty, a database itself is nothing special.  The club use Wyscout (amongst others) for data and video.  I’m sure they have a slightly better data / video package than I do though!  I too have a database, totalling circa 6k players and 100 data attributes each.  I have another for a smaller set of interested players that holds every match they play.

My database is Microsoft Excel!!!  I use Tableau to create visualisations from it.

Making a database sound so grand is trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes.  It’s only as good as the data you put into it.

2 hours ago, Oh Louie louie said:

We keep signing players from that level.

What seems more likely?

A we get promoted,

B we end up in the lower leauges.

 

Depends on their propensity to improve.  Plenty of nuggets in L1/2.  The skill is find the right ones.  We did alright in the past.

1 hour ago, chinapig said:

You need analytical expertise these days but as a retired analyst I have posted before that the role of analysts in any line of work is to support the subject experts in their decision making. Analysts should not be making the decisions. Though managers sometimes want an analytical model to do it for them you should always push back.

I would be amazed if Nigel did not see the need for a head of recruitment who is a football expert with the necessary contacts. Let's hope we recruit one asap.

Meanwhile Steve has put a lot into physical infrastructure but neglects the recruitment infrastructure. It's the equivalent of Hargreaves Lansdown building palatial offices but not recruiting financial experts to run the business.

I think Nige is trying to play some of that role (HoR) too at the mo’.  It seems as if he’s willing to give people in place the opportunity first.  If he feels Technical Recruitment isn’t up to scratch / needs supplementing I’m sure he will make changes.

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

Their owner has a company that does this stuff.

When Chris Wilder was at Sheff U he said he’d need 300 scouts just to compete with it.

Think we forget about Brentford’s model & find our own one..

Yep, for all their data expertise and access to data, hugely reliant on physical scouting.  It’s a myth it’s all data based recruitment.

1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I reckon Walsh may already be advising on a formal, or more likely informal, basis.

As he's working in the MLS, I wouldn't see a conflict with him recommending a couple of players to Nige, as very few players would be interested in going to the US as wages are higher here. 

Atkinson and Tanner are the types of player that I don't think would have been picked up by our recruitment team because their career stats weren't particularly outstanding prior to joining. 

Both those players do though very much fit the profile of Walsh signings, who like Nige, I'm sure has a network of scouts that he knows and speaks to regularly about certain players. 

In terms of who's speaking to agents, that is of course Richard Gould's job, not Sean Gillespy. If agent's want to tout their players to the club then they need to phone Gould! 

Yep, his main role was getting Charlotte ready for the MLS.  Some of that heavy lifting has been done.  He’s back in Leicester next month to give a talk on Recruitment.

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, italian dave said:

I always felt that the “signings” of Weimann and Baker felt odd. Never really known that happen before - although covid effect on the market has never happened before. And you have to say that neither signing has been a success so far.

Really ? I thought they made perfect sense.
We had little money to spend - they were basically free signings. They took a cut in what they might have been on wage wise (Still not cheap I know), they were known to, and had played recently under the manager, always handy. They knew the club and area so no settling in time.

With the very unusual situation at the time, it made sense to me. Unless we had another 2 like Atkinson lined up, only cheaper , it feels like good stop gap signings . Plus Tbf Weimann had been a big miss previously, and Baker is a whole hearted CB in the mould of Pearson (injuries apart).

As I say, stop gaps, but understandable. I imagine the next ones will be more to where NP wants to get us. 
 

Edited October 25, 2021 by 1960maaan

[Kid in the Riot]

7 minutes ago, italian dave said:

It’s not like the weekly shop; make a list the night before then go out on the 1st Jan and buy a player. Those manager have spoken about identifying, tracking, monitoring targets taking months or years before they are signed. Presumably that’s not happening - or if it is any new incumbent might have different ideas. 

That forward planning for recruitment is definitely still happening. There's regular meetings between the technical recruitment team (Gillespy's team), Nige, Jon L, Gould, even Dave Rennie apparently, to identify players we will be interested in signing not just in January (where there will still likely be little activity from us) but next summer and the windows after that....we shouldn't haven't any concerns that planning for the future is still taking place, and it's good to have this consistency.

Harry's point is that there is no overall Head of Recruitment and that is a fair one. I had always assumed that we will recruit to that post at some point in the near future. Not ideal for now, but best waiting for the right person.

Regards scouting, Gillespy and his team do attend matches to scout players, and I'm sure Nige and Fleming will occasionally too. 

LJ, JMc and DH used to do a fair bit of scouting themselves, as did SC. Comes with the job.  

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, marmite said:

Just a couple of points to throw in here with no agenda either way. 

Richard Gould, our CEO, is heavily involved with recruitment as he stated at  the Senior Reds lunch last Thursday. He also stated that the Brentford model was not one he wanted our club to follow as it is not all it appears on the surface!! He didn't elaborate on that so judge for yourself. 

 

 

A cynic might suggest it’s because it takes a lot of setting up, costs a lot of money to run, and you have to be good at it to make it work.  Brentford were prepared to do the hard yards, gets scouts all over Europe, etc.. They are agile too.  When Brexit impacts started to get thought about they shifted their scouts away from League like French Ligue 2 because they knew they wouldn’t get work permits.

4 minutes ago, italian dave said:

I can’t remember individuals, but I’m sure there were instances where we signed players and were told they’d been on our radar for years. Didn’t we first spot HNM as a 15/16 year old? I’m sure there’s short term and panic buys mixed in too though! 

I think we have to treat some of these things with some scepticism.  I’m sure we all remember that City played Monaco in a friendly / tournament a few years back and he played.  He may have stood out, not just with his hair.  But I don’t reckon we tracked him per se.  If we were, the point he gets into Monaco’s CL team is when you probably archive him and think he’s not gonna end up here! The rumour was that the ex-Chelsea and then Monaco Sporting Director Michael Emanalo offered him to us just before he got the boot.

[ExiledAjax]

17 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Implemented in 2012(ish), then thrown out under SOD / Burt.  I’m sure he re-introduced it upon his return once Cotts was sacked and then Burt removed too.

In all honesty, a database itself is nothing special.  The club use Wyscout (amongst others) for data and video.  I’m sure they have a slightly better data / video package than I do though!  I too have a database, totalling circa 6k players and 100 data attributes each.  I have another for a smaller set of interested players that holds every match they play.

My database is Microsoft Excel!!!  I use Tableau to create visualisations from it.

Making a database sound so grand is trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes.  It’s only as good as the data you put into it.

You're correct of course, and we've all heard of lower league clubs using the FM or transfermarkt databases in the past, I'm sure a number of very small clubs simply pay the fee for wyscout each year. 

I just wondered if we were still using Ashtons stuff or not. 

I agree with the general sentiment, that we need a head of recruitment and scouting network for the database and analysts to support. Must admit I'd kind of assumed we had that in place.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, ExiledAjax said:

You're correct of course, and we've all heard of lower league clubs using the FM or transfermarkt databases in the past, I'm sure a number of very small clubs simply pay the fee for wyscout each year. 

I just wondered if we were still using Ashtons stuff or not. 

I agree with the general sentiment, that we need a head of recruitment and scouting network for the database and analysts to support. Must admit I'd kind of assumed we had that in place.

I suspect we are still using it.

[The Original OTIB]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I suspect we are still using it.

On a Statto side note, do you have access to running stats (distance covered) for us thus far this season? I'd be interested to know where we sit, as one measure of work rate.

[Major Isewater]

51 minutes ago, italian dave said:

always felt that the “signings” of Weimann and Baker felt odd

Safe signings during a time of upheaval I suppose . 
I was equally surprised at the time though. Baker in particular but I read that his contract is loaded with appearance clauses , can’t validate that though.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, The Original OTIB said:

On a Statto side note, do you have access to running stats (distance covered) for us thus far this season? I'd be interested to know where we sit, as one measure of work rate.

No, wish I did…..Bundesliga publish some fairly basic stuff for free.

Think it was Weimann who said we ran more than any other team.  Perhaps we are running needlessly at times through poor anticipation and structure.

1 minute ago, Major Isewater said:

Safe signings during a time of upheaval I suppose . 
I was equally surprised at the time though. Baker in particular but I read that his contract is loaded with appearance clauses , can’t validate that though.

Nige said it was heavily incentivised.

[The Original OTIB]

Just now, Davefevs said:

No, wish I did…..Bundesliga publish some fairly basic stuff for free.

Think it was Weimann who said we ran more than any other team.  Perhaps we are running needlessly at times through poor anticipation and structure.

Watching Man Utd yesterday, it felt like an elite version of us recently. No obvious coaching or plan, and Sky gave a stat that they were near bottom of the PL in distances covered as well as tackling, the latter if i recall correctly. A bad sign at any club.

[Port Said Red]

I see no value in the OP other to stir shit. We don't know how the recruit side of the club is run or much about those who are in it, more importantly we are in no position to do anything about it. Even if the information was valid it only serves to be a rod to beat the club with. I have no idea who Harry is and to be honest I don't care, but no matter how much he presents this information as fact, it is soured by his opinions. He may know "some agents", but everything I have ever read or heard about agents would make me wary of listening to them as a source of truth.

[BCFCGav]

Obviously we have no way of knowing if everything you’re saying is true, but if you are genuinely connected and this is all factual regarding recruitment it is concerning. 
 

Regarding Nige though, I think this is harsh. With very few signings he has improved us vastly, even without Shakespeare and Walsh. Obviously the last 3 games have been rough but prior to that we were 9th. Better than the 24th form we had second half of last year. Nige is improving us, and once the shaky AG mentality is corrected the table will reflect how far we’ve come under him already.

[The Original OTIB]

1 minute ago, Port Said Red said:

I see no value in the OP other to stir shit. We don't know how the recruit side of the club is run or much about those who are in it, more importantly we are in no position to do anything about it. Even if the information was valid it only serves to be a rod to beat the club with. I have no idea who Harry is and to be honest I don't care, but no matter how much he presents this information as fact, it is soured by his opinions. He may know "some agents", but everything I have ever read or heard about agents would make me wary of listening to them as a source of truth.

I think he's raising and interesting subject worthy of debate, whatever side he may stand on. This being a forum, and a football one at that, let the debate unfold.

[mozo]

10 hours ago, Harry said:

I had a huge axe to grind when Ashton was here as I knew exactly what his game was and that it wasn’t healthy for this club. I had personal dealings with him and knew he was a rotter. 
And now I have an axe to grind because Lansdown has let the club go from 1 man controlling everything to no one in control of recruitment at all. 
I don’t have anything against the data analysts whatsoever. They are a perfectly normal part of the modern game. 
But I do have a mountainous problem with a data analyst running the whole recruitment department and not taking phone calls from agents. 
Do you agree that a proper Head of Recruitment is needed? 

Ashton might be gone but there is still so much weirdness at our club.

Recruitment is one good example. 

The search for significant investment is also a weird elephant in the room. We know it is an active concept but we don't know any detail around it.

And why are we refreshing the coaching personnel 3 months into the season?

Are there issues behind the scenes as one poster suggested?

Gould and Pearson seem like the types of people we need to get us on course but I'm still confused by much of what is going on.

[Port Said Red]

6 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

I think he's raising and interesting subject worthy of debate, whatever side he may stand on. This being a forum, and a football one at that, let the debate unfold.

Facts are useful in debates.

[The Original OTIB]

Just now, Port Said Red said:

Facts are useful in debates.

Indeed they are, but so are opinions.