The Pearson Debate - Something Not Mentioned Yet…

[Port Said Red]

Just now, The Original OTIB said:

Indeed they are, but so are opinions. 

As long as they are not presented as facts, for example "we shouldn't have re-signed Weimann", that's not a fact and overall so far this season, I for one am glad it's not Harry's decision.

[The Original OTIB]

1 minute ago, Port Said Red said:

As long as they are not presented as facts, for example "we shouldn't have re-signed Weimann", that's not a fact and overall so far this season, I for one am glad it's not Harry's decision.

I think you'll find that's an opinion.

Just now, JonDolman said:

I remember a Sunderland documentary in the 90s in a season they went down from the prem.

Peter Reid sat at his desk going through a Rothmans book looking for players to sign. 

Whilst drinking a fair amount of beer.

[Davefevs]

23 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

Watching Man Utd yesterday, it felt like an elite version of us recently. No obvious coaching or plan, and Sky gave a stat that they were near bottom of the PL in distances covered as well as tackling, the latter if i recall correctly. A bad sign at any club.

I was doing tea and only half listening to Neville’s analysis on their pressing…..it sounded like us in the last 3-4 games.

10 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Facts are useful in debates.

At least Harry has worked for City in Ashton’s time.  That’s a useful starting point.

6 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I remember a Sunderland documentary in the 90s in a season they went down from the prem.

Peter Reid sat at his desk going through a Rothmans book looking for players to sign. 

Don’t diss Rothmans….although the Football League Directory annual publication (Tony Williams) was more detailed.

[1960maaan]

10 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Even if the information was valid it only serves to be a rod to beat the club with.

As this is a Forum, this is exactly what should be debated. It's not just moaning about beer prices and poor performances.

@Harry said "we are probably the only professional football club in the country who doesn’t currently have a Head of Recruitment or Chief Scout. A bit concerning if true, but if true worthy of debate.

@bcfcfinker posted this link, which explains the Dept.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/inside-bristol-citys-recruitment-team-6030875

It talks about how it works, weekly meeting with Pearson, the analysts and scouts and the CEO, plus Lansdown. It says Sean Gilhespy heads up the Dept, he's an analyst , which is what Harry said to start with.  Gilhespy says "There's been several heads of scouting over the last four or five years and it's kind of drifted aside now, and merged together into one place. It's probably more hybrid than being one or the other,"
So no head as such, which may be deliberate as he talks of a different set up. I have a feeling that, if Nige wants a DoF or head of recruitment, he'll get it. The main reason why SL has changed and gone with a tough , experienced Manager is , IMO, to get the whole club organised , running better and more structured.

[Kingswood Robin]

4 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

What’s the point in paying a Head of Recruitment when we haven’t got any money to bring anyone in? 
 

When you've got nothing, you need people that can make something from nothing. Turn a spark into a flame!

[1960maaan]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I was doing tea and only half listening to Neville’s analysis on their pressing…..it sounded like us in the last 3-4 games

The difference in the Press was startling . Watch MotD2 on catch up, Ian Wright isn't impressed 

[Bristol Rob]

32 minutes ago, Kingswood Robin said:

Turn a (bright) spark into a flame!

My beats per minute 'never been the same.

#GoGo

[Davefevs]

54 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

The difference in the Press was startling . Watch MotD2 on catch up, Ian Wright isn't impressed 

Micah Richards video analysis spot on too.

You could’ve easily swapped Man Utd for us and Liverpool for West Brom.  Similar errors.

[robin_unreliant]

1 hour ago, Port Said Red said:

I see no value in the OP other to stir shit. We don't know how the recruit side of the club is run or much about those who are in it, more importantly we are in no position to do anything about it. Even if the information was valid it only serves to be a rod to beat the club with. I have no idea who Harry is and to be honest I don't care, but no matter how much he presents this information as fact, it is soured by his opinions. He may know "some agents", but everything I have ever read or heard about agents would make me wary of listening to them as a source of truth.

I think it is a valid point he raised about there being no HoR. 

When it comes to not answering calls from agents I'm not sure that would be a surprise. If they are anthing like recruitment agencies in the 'real' world I don't blame them. I get fed up with the emails and voicemails I get from them. That's as someone who only recruits one or two people a year! 

[Harry]

11 hours ago, bcfcfinker said:

And now to give a fuller description of this fella Sean Gilhespy:

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/inside-bristol-citys-recruitment-team-6030875

It's not full of the emotional baggage Harry seems to carry around, which on occasion seems to be a chip on the shoulder, but maybe City are a bit more discerning on the agents they talk too and Harry's 'agent acquaintances' aren't on City's, so don't get their calls returned?

The article gives a fuller insight to recruitment at City. Not traditional and probably not to everyones liking, but nor are Harry's personal ramblings about how he thinks recruitment should be done.

No emotional baggage here mr finker. 
The article you linked is the article to which I referred in my opening post. So I’ve not attempted to hide anything. 
I have no chip on my shoulder at all. I’m simply extremely concerned that one of the most important roles at a pro football club is being run by amateurs. 
As for the agents I refer to; it’s not a small selection with minor clients. These are worldwide agencies, hugely respected. I know from personal conversations that our current set up is viewed as a laughing stock. It has to change. Immediately. 
 

I get it - Mr Gilhespy must be a friend of yours. That’s fine. And good on you for defending him. I have no doubts, as I said in my post, that he’s a nice chap and a competent data analyst. But do you really think he should be in charge of player recruitment for a club with Premier League ambition?? Be honest. 

[Harry]

6 hours ago, 054123 said:

Either way you’d be awfully naïve to not fully recognise just what ‘rebuild’ actually means.

The next few years is going to be a bumpy road and if a ‘bad 7 days’ gives you the shits then it might be best you look away now.

It’s not a bad 7 days. I refer to the summer recruitment and the limitations that we were under - simply because we had no one in place of any experience who was able to engage with player agents to bring the right people in. 
I’ve only posted this now because it was actually a half-defence of Nige and the stick he’s been getting. I was trying to point out that a 3 year rebuild needed to start as soon as Nige was appointed and that we really should have professionalised the recruitment team at that time too. It’s an essential part of the necessary rebuild. 

5 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

What’s the point in paying a Head of Recruitment when we haven’t got any money to bring anyone in? 
 

Either this is a very naive post or an intentional fishing trip. I’m assuming the latter. 
 

[Harry]

1 hour ago, Port Said Red said:

I see no value in the OP other to stir shit. We don't know how the recruit side of the club is run or much about those who are in it, more importantly we are in no position to do anything about it. Even if the information was valid it only serves to be a rod to beat the club with. I have no idea who Harry is and to be honest I don't care, but no matter how much he presents this information as fact, it is soured by his opinions. He may know "some agents", but everything I have ever read or heard about agents would make me wary of listening to them as a source of truth.

No stirring. Just huge concern that we have an amateur recruitment department. 
Be honest - do you think a club with Premier League ambition should have a recruitment department being run by a handful of data analysts with absolutely zero pro-game experience? 

[Bristol Rob]

3 minutes ago, Harry said:

No stirring. Just huge concern that we have an amateur recruitment department. 
Be honest - do you think a club with Premier League ambition should have a recruitment department being run by a handful of data analysts with absolutely zero pro-game experience? 

Rovers did that with hilarious consequences.

Gawd Bless Garner.

[Bris Red]

2 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

I see no value in the OP other to stir shit. We don't know how the recruit side of the club is run or much about those who are in it, more importantly we are in no position to do anything about it. Even if the information was valid it only serves to be a rod to beat the club with. I have no idea who Harry is and to be honest I don't care, but no matter how much he presents this information as fact, it is soured by his opinions. He may know "some agents", but everything I have ever read or heard about agents would make me wary of listening to them as a source of truth.

Believe it or not Bristol City football club is not like the North Korean state and information about the ‘’inner workings’’ of most parts of the club if you know the right people and ask the right questions can be fairly easily obtainable.
I have no reason to believe the OP is shit stirring as what he is telling us is pretty much the exact same information I heard through a source that i have at the club. It’s certainly far from top secret information i can assure you on that and quite frankly if i was SL i would be fairly embarrassed/annoyed at the set up especially considering how well he has done with the physical infrastructure of the football club in the past 5 years.

[exAtyeoMax]

Was recruitment covered in the question and answer session at the H&C the other week? 

[054123]

24 minutes ago, Harry said:

It’s not a bad 7 days. I refer to the summer recruitment and the limitations that we were under - simply because we had no one in place of any experience who was able to engage with player agents to bring the right people in. 
I’ve only posted this now because it was actually a half-defence of Nige and the stick he’s been getting. I was trying to point out that a 3 year rebuild needed to start as soon as Nige was appointed and that we really should have professionalised the recruitment team at that time too. It’s an essential part of the necessary rebuild. 

Either this is a very naive post or an intentional fishing trip. I’m assuming the latter. 
 

I know its not just a ‘bad 7 days’ Harry, that was my point.

If the past 7 days have given you kittens, best take a break for a little bit as the rebuild needed will no doubt see other ‘bad 7 days’ along the way.

Time to buckle up!

[Edgy Red]

6 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

What’s the point in paying a Head of Recruitment when we haven’t got any money to bring anyone in? 
 

Spot on... all we ever hear about is the restrictions of FFP and that our hands are tied regarding recruitment, so whats the point in having a team of experts if we can't afford to buy them!

[054123]

1 minute ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Was recruitment covered in the question and answer session at the H&C the other week? 

I don’t what was.

3piapc did comment that they didn’t like the Lockyer song from the other week #prorities

[Rob k]

2 minutes ago, Edgy Red said:

Spot on... all we ever hear about is the restrictions of FFP and that our hands are tied regarding recruitment, so whats the point in having a team of experts if we can't afford to buy them!

The players are out there - i know of players recommend to the club we have missed out on which we could have had for peanuts - Ollie Watkins being one 

[Edgy Red]

1 minute ago, Rob k said:

The players are out there - i know of players recommend to the club we have missed out on which we could have had for peanuts - Ollie Watkins being one 

Of course there is talent out there but any player who shows promise in the 9th tier of English football will already have numerous clubs, much bigger than us, looking at them.

I think we missed a big trick not bringing in 1 or 2 Prem youngsters on loan in the summer.

[Bristol Rob]

6 minutes ago, Edgy Red said:

Spot on... all we ever hear about is the restrictions of FFP and that our hands are tied regarding recruitment, so whats the point in having a team of experts if we can't afford to buy them!

So that we can respond by having various lists of targets at various price points with players who are varying stages of their career.

No point in selling 'x' player for 'y' money if there isn't a plan to replace them. Could be we get 3 buttons and a Mars bar, in which case you would expect the head of recruitment to have options that fit with that spend, could be we sell someone for a zillion quid and the manager wants someone proven rather than potential.

[Kid in the Riot]

23 minutes ago, Harry said:

No stirring. Just huge concern that we have an amateur recruitment department. 
Be honest - do you think a club with Premier League ambition should have a recruitment department being run by a handful of data analysts with absolutely zero pro-game experience? 

I don't think it matters that the data analysists don't have any pro-game experience. Luton's head of technical recruitment (so same position as Gilespy) is Jay Socik aka Blades Analytics who was basically an amateur data analyst with a Twitter account. I can't remember which Scottish club it was now, but one appointed a 17 year old Indian kid from Mumbai as a data analyst. Most data analysts will be exactly that, and not played the game to any decent level. 

It's obviously key to have pro-game input alongside this. At Luton it's actually their assistant manager Mick Harford who is also Head of recruitment. 

At the moment, our recruitment is a combined committee effort between the technical team, Nige, Fleming, Rennie, Gould, Jon L. Clearly, it's Nige and Fleming (previously Downing and Simpson) providing the main football experience input. 

It's also pretty obvious Nige is calling the shots, a quick look at summer recruitment confirms that. 

The current situation is not ideal and I have no doubts recruitment is an area (along with plenty of others) we could be doing much better in. There would appear to be a vacancy for head of recruitment, how far down the line we are in terms of appointing someone, I don't know. But clearly it has to be the right person. Nige has only been in FT post since the end of last season, only 5 months or so is not actually very long to try and fix these systemic problems that may well run deep. 

I think he's going as fast as he can but clearly doesn't want the club to rush into an appointment they may regret. Maybe we are waiting for Walsh? 

[Bristol Rob]

2 minutes ago, Edgy Red said:

Of course there is talent out there but any player who shows promise in the 9th tier of English football will already have numerous clubs, much bigger than us, looking at them.

I think we missed a big trick not bringing in 1 or 2 Prem youngsters on loan in the summer.

Which ones?

[42nite]

4 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I reckon Walsh may already be advising on a formal, or more likely informal, basis.

As he's working in the MLS, I wouldn't see a conflict with him recommending a couple of players to Nige, as very few players would be interested in going to the US as wages are higher here. 

Atkinson and Tanner are the types of player that I don't think would have been picked up by our recruitment team because their career stats weren't particularly outstanding prior to joining. 

Both those players do though very much fit the profile of Walsh signings, who like Nige, I'm sure has a network of scouts that he knows and speaks to regularly about certain players. 

In terms of who's speaking to agents, that is of course Richard Gould's job, not Sean Gillespy. If agent's want to tout their players to the club then they need to phone Gould! 

That's a good theory Kid.

I keep hearing that Atkinson and Tanner are the sort of signings we should be making.... So somebody's doing something right...somewhere.

 

[Rob k]

4 minutes ago, Edgy Red said:

Of course there is talent out there but any player who shows promise in the 9th tier of English football will already have numerous clubs, much bigger than us, looking at them.

I think we missed a big trick not bringing in 1 or 2 Prem youngsters on loan in the summer.

Watkins ended up at Brentford, we could have had him 2 seasons before that 

[Harry]

12 minutes ago, 054123 said:

I know its not just a ‘bad 7 days’ Harry, that was my point.

If the past 7 days have given you kittens, best take a break for a little bit as the rebuild needed will no doubt see other ‘bad 7 days’ along the way.

Time to buckle up!

Sorry. I misinterpreted your post. 
You are correct. 
It’s a long rebuild ahead. But it should have started in Summer 21, with a professional recruitment team in place. We’re already playing catch up from where we should have been. 

[Harry]

10 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I don't think it matters that the data analysists don't have any pro-game experience. Luton's head of technical recruitment (so same position as Gilespy) is Jay Socik aka Blades Analytics who was basically an amateur data analyst with a Twitter account. I can't remember which Scottish club it was now, but one appointed a 17 year old Indian kid from Mumbai as a data analyst. Most data analysts will be exactly that, and not played the game to any decent level. 

It's obviously key to have pro-game input alongside this. At Luton it's actually their assistant manager Mick Harford who is also Head of recruitment. 

At the moment, our recruitment is a combined committee effort between the technical team, Nige, Fleming, Rennie, Gould, Jon L. Clearly, it's Nige and Fleming (previously Downing and Simpson) providing the main football experience input. 

It's also pretty obvious Nige is calling the shots, a quick look at summer recruitment confirms that. 

The current situation is not ideal and I have no doubts recruitment is an area (along with plenty of others) we could be doing much better in. There would appear to be a vacancy for head of recruitment, how far down the line we are in terms of appointing someone, I don't know. But clearly it has to be the right person. Nige has only been in FT post since the end of last season, only 5 months or so is not actually very long to try and fix these systemic problems that may well run deep. 

I think he's going as fast as he can but clearly doesn't want the club to rush into an appointment they may regret. Maybe we are waiting for Walsh? 

I’m fully aware of Jay Socik. Luton still have a Chief Scout though (Phil Chappell) that sits above him. Someone who’s been a pro and also been a chief scout at other pro clubs.  And as you say, Harford also plays a key role. 
I don’t think Socik spent the summer talking  to agents. He probably focussed on his skill set, the one they hired him for - analytics. 
 

It’s a huge hole at the moment. And it needs fixing asap. 

[Bristol Oil Services]

 

10 hours ago, Oh Louie louie said:

20 odd years now we have had sl.

Look where we are.

A dogfight.

Imagine another 20 years of this

 

We are between a rock (the stultifying safety and security of SL, going around in ever-depressing circles) and a hard place (the great unknown of Bristol City post-Lansdown, which could go tits up or better than expected. But if you had to put your money on it, it'd be "tits up" under some dodgy overseas ownership).

 

[Harry]

3 hours ago, marmite said:

Just a couple of points to throw in here with no agenda either way. 

Richard Gould, our CEO, is heavily involved with recruitment as he stated at  the Senior Reds lunch last Thursday. He also stated that the Brentford model was not one he wanted our club to follow as it is not all it appears on the surface!! He didn't elaborate on that so judge for yourself. 

 

 

Gould wasn’t here for the majority of the transfer window and his role would be more on the financial side of things anyway. 
He’s not someone who is suitable for the head of recruitment position. He’s good for a ceo position and will undoubtedly have input into recruitment from the financial perspective but he’s not the person who is going to be identifying players. 
We’re missing a key part of the process. 

[Harry]

3 hours ago, Rob k said:

Good post but for me I’d ask what was your expectations for this season?

Mine was a season of low quality with an attempt at making us harder to beat, we are still a way off that but slowly getting there.

What we don’t know what the culture behind the scenes is like, and this is why NP has gone to tried and tested men, it may not work on the pitch but if things are that badly broken we need to start somewhere, it no secret that NP is clearly not happy with some of them, remember recruitment is about being able to shift some on which he’s clearly not been able to do.

As another mate alluded too, NP may not be here when we start seeing his work come to fruition . 

 

 

My expectations for this season are low. Hence why I made the point early in my initial post that Nige has to stay. It’s a long rebuild. But we can’t ignore the fact that the rebuild is already behind schedule because we’ve had 1 window already where we’ve signed 7 players, 5 of which are expensive, 4 of which were unnecessary. 
And the reason was because we have no one with any experience in charge of recruitment. We had a summer of missed calls from agencies and were literally bottom of the list when we did finally want to talk about anyone. Too late to the party. It can’t happen again. 

[Kid in the Riot]

8 minutes ago, Harry said:

I’m fully aware of Jay Socik. Luton still have a Chief Scout though (Phil Chappell) that sits above him. Someone who’s been a pro and also been a chief scout at other pro clubs.  And as you say, Harford also plays a key role. 
I don’t think Socik spent the summer talking  to agents. He probably focussed on his skill set, the one they hired him for - analytics. 

It’s a huge hole at the moment. And it needs fixing asap. 

Yeah, Luton only set their new department up in February mind!

LJ set ours up back in 2016.

This is exactly what I'm saying Harry, data analysts should not be fielding phone calls from agents and I have no idea why an agent would want to speak to someone like Gilhespy.

Richard Gould conducted all of our summer transfer business with agents, that's what he told me at least...

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Harry said:

I’m fully aware of Jay Socik. Luton still have a Chief Scout though (Phil Chappell) that sits above him. Someone who’s been a pro and also been a chief scout at other pro clubs.  And as you say, Harford also plays a key role. 
I don’t think Socik spent the summer talking  to agents. He probably focussed on his skill set, the one they hired him for - analytics. 
 

It’s a huge hole at the moment. And it needs fixing asap. 

I had quite a few conversations online with Jay over the summer, very amiable and helpful guy.

He was trying to explain how you can shove video in front of a football person, but don’t try and tell them tactically why a goal happened, they know that. however, If you can present trends, eg. Here are 4/5 similar occasions or here’s the data that backs up what you see in the video etc, then the football people become interested.

He’s been a trailblazer for a whole group of fanalysts getting jobs in pro football recently. 

[The Original OTIB]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I had quite a few conversations online with Jay over the summer, very amiable and helpful guy.

He was trying to explain how you can shove video in front of a football person, but don’t try and tell them tactically why a goal happened, they know that. however, If you can present trends, eg. Here are 4/5 similar occasions or here’s the data that backs up what you see in the video etc, then the football people become interested.

He’s been a trailblazer for a whole group of fanalysts getting jobs in pro football recently. 

Job for Fevs?

[Henry]

@Harry would you take a job from City if offered? Have you or your team approached the club since Ashton left?

[Kid in the Riot]

12 minutes ago, Harry said:

Gould wasn’t here for the majority of the transfer window and his role would be more on the financial side of things anyway. 

Just had to double check this....the window opened on 9 June and Gould joined on 22 June. Then we signed all our players.

[Bristol Oil Services]

4 hours ago, GrahamC said:

 

Think we forget about Brentford’s model & find our own one..

That's going to take new/fresh ownership, isn't it? To find our own approach to this that works even half as well as Brentford's is going to require a fresh start from the top, fresh thinking, new ideas. It's not going to come from SL now, or anyone he appoints. Is it?

If SL had an original or brilliant idea on this front, it would've happened by now. You would think. There's not an ounce of originality or ingenuity or inspiration at Bristol City, currently, not even with Nige there. Is the impression I'm getting.

To do any better than this, or this era (2008; 2017-19) we need to move on from SL; to avoid being disastrously worse, we need to cling on to SL as long as we can.

[Harry]

11 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Yeah, Luton only set their new department up in February mind!

LJ set ours up back in 2016.

This is exactly what I'm saying Harry, data analysts should not be fielding phone calls from agents and I have no idea why an agent would want to speak to someone like Gilhespy.

Richard Gould conducted all of our summer transfer business with agents, that's what he told me at least...

Given he didn’t start work here until 20th June. Weimann had already extended. James, King & Atkinson were  all signed 1st-3rd July. 
Gould may well have been involved in the final financials on their deals but if he told you he was involved in agent talks from the very start he’s lying to you. 
If you seriously believe that we hadn’t already spoken to James before 20th June and the signing was all sealed and delivered 10 days later, well. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Harry

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

Hobby for Fevs?

Corrected!

A job for the younger person without a family and with lower wage expectations.

Now if I was a few years older and thinking of semi-retirement now wouldn’t that be a nice thought.

Either that or I’ll be fighting @Clevedon Redfor the minibus driver role!!! 

[CodeRed]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

Either that or I’ll be fighting @Clevedon Redfor the minibus driver role!!! 

And Robbored surely...

[Harry]

12 minutes ago, Henry said:

@Harry would you take a job from City if offered? Have you or your team approached the club since Ashton left?

Not any more thanks Henry. We need proven experience in the role. However, I am 100% of the opinion that a HoR should utilise their fan base to the max. We have fans based all over the country, able to watch matches anywhere and everywhere.  We should have a system where fans can refer players into the HoR - maybe even be given ‘official’ accreditation and can walk into Grimsby v Halifax with a BCFC scout badge, free of charge, as an official scout. So long as they provide a specific report with specific criteria, not just go for a jolly. 
Such a system suddenly gives you hundreds of potential scouts and zero cost to the club. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Harry

[Kid in the Riot]

10 minutes ago, Harry said:

Given he didn’t start work here until 20th June. Weimann had already extended. James, King & Atkinson were  all signed 1st-3rd July. 
Gould may well have been involved in the final financials on their deals but if he told you he was involved in agent talks from the very start he’s lying to you. 
If you seriously believe that we hadn’t already spoken to James before 20th June and the signing was all sealed and delivered 10 days later, well. 

Yes, I'm very sure he was heavily involved in each and every deal. Tanner and Baker too. That is his job after all.

I'd also suggest a little naïve to think he wasn't already "putting his feet under the table" well before June 20...

[Rob k]

27 minutes ago, Harry said:

My expectations for this season are low. Hence why I made the point early in my initial post that Nige has to stay. It’s a long rebuild. But we can’t ignore the fact that the rebuild is already behind schedule because we’ve had 1 window already where we’ve signed 7 players, 5 of which are expensive, 4 of which were unnecessary. 
And the reason was because we have no one with any experience in charge of recruitment. We had a summer of missed calls from agencies and were literally bottom of the list when we did finally want to talk about anyone. Too late to the party. It can’t happen again. 

Im told that Simpson, King and Baker are not on big wages and we obviously didn’t pay a fee for wieman, he’s also one that divides opinion so he may well be money well spent for some In wages and one I’d suspect you could move on if needed, James i think has done ok as has Tanner and Atkinson. 
However, as i don’t do payroll i have no Idea of these players wages so i imagine a lot of what im told is guesswork 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Rob k

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Yes, I'm very sure he was heavily involved in each and every deal. Tanner and Baker too. That is his job after all.

I'd also suggest a little naïve to think he wasn't already "putting his feet under the table" well before June 20...

He said he’d been doing some work here prior to official start date…just like Ashton was at Ipswich. 

[stortfordred]

38 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I had quite a few conversations online with Jay over the summer, very amiable and helpful guy.

He was trying to explain how you can shove video in front of a football person, but don’t try and tell them tactically why a goal happened, they know that. however, If you can present trends, eg. Here are 4/5 similar occasions or here’s the data that backs up what you see in the video etc, then the football people become interested.

He’s been a trailblazer for a whole group of fanalysts getting jobs in pro football recently. 

Was he involved in signing Elijah Adebayo? Guy had loan spells with Swindon and Cheltenham, has a 1 goal in 2 game ratio this season and looks a real handful. Just the kind of player our recruitment team should have spotted.

 

[The Original OTIB]

9 minutes ago, stortfordred said:

Was he involved in signing Elijah Adebayo? Guy had loan spells with Swindon and Cheltenham, has a 1 goal in 2 game ratio this season and looks a real handful. Just the kind of player our recruitment team should have spotted.

 

Elijah Anuoluwapo Oluwaferanmi Oluwatomi Oluwalana Ayomikulehin Adebayo. Try getting all that on a shirt.

[Harry]

35 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Yes, I'm very sure he was heavily involved in each and every deal. Tanner and Baker too. That is his job after all.

I'd also suggest a little naïve to think he wasn't already "putting his feet under the table" well before June 20...

As said, he was no doubt involved in the financials at the closure of the deals but he certainly isn’t the person who would have been hosting meetings with agents throughout the spring and summer, ie, way before 22nd June, when the real player identification and availability was happening. We were behind the 8-ball in the last window. I’m just very very keen to make sure we aren’t behind it again. And we need a HoR to make sure the professionalism and experience is there. And we need a more robust scouting set up to aid that. 

[The Original OTIB]

58 minutes ago, Harry said:

Not any more thanks Henry. We need proven experience in the role. However, I am 100% of the opinion that a HoR should utilise their fan base to the max. We have fans based all over the country, able to watch matches anywhere and everywhere.  We should have a system where fans can refer players into the HoR - maybe even be given ‘official’ accreditation and can walk into Grimsby v Halifax with a BCFC scout badge, free of charge, as an official scout. So long as they provide a specific report with specific criteria, not just go for a jolly. 
Such a system suddenly gives you hundreds of potential scouts and zero cost to the club. 

Surprised this lad isn't playing at a higher level, by way of example: Kabongo Tshimanga. Know much about him? Pace and power.

Edited October 25, 2021 by The Original OTIB
spelling

[Kid in the Riot]

8 minutes ago, Harry said:

As said, he was no doubt involved in the financials at the closure of the deals but he certainly isn’t the person who would have been hosting meetings with agents throughout the spring and summer, ie, way before 22nd June, when the real player identification and availability was happening.

I'd imagine there was very, very little of that happening given the first few signings through the door were Weimann, James, King and Atkinson. Only the latter would've required any real legwork. All three of the others very well-known to either Nige or the club.

[Harry]

1 minute ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I'd imagine there was very, very little of that happening given the first few signings through the door were Weimann, James, King and Atkinson. Only the latter would've required any real legwork. All three of the others very well-known to either Nige or the club.

And that’s exactly the point Will. The donkey work was not being done early enough to make any impact in the summer window. 
Nige had to rely on very little support from the existing structure. Clearly the 3 Leicester connections were all his own work, but I’m reliably informed that Atkinson was also a lot of his own work too. 
Nige may not have signed Weimann and King were he in conversations from March onwards with his recruitment head, who in turn had been in daily conversations with the people in charge of placing those players at new clubs. There was plenty of transactions made in the summer window that would’ve been easily within our budget and desires. But we weren’t even in the conversation. 
Don’t get me wrong, Gould’s arrival is a positive. But he’s still not the person filling the massive void in the recruitment structure. 

[Harry]

9 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

Surprised this lad isn't playing at a higher level, by way of example: Kabongo Tshimanga. No much about him? Pace and power.

And my point is exactly this. We probably have plenty of fans across the country who might get to National League/other games when they can’t make it to City. Why shouldn’t we have a fan be able to enter a Chesterfield fixture under an official scout badge and write a full report on the chap. We need to expand the scouting network. What better than having fans, with a huge personal interest in our clubs well-being, to be out there providing reports at zero cost to the club. You personally should be encouraged to go to the next Chesterfield match and report on this lad. 
There should be a facility for you to be able to contact our Head of Recruitment and say “I’m going to the Torquay Chesterfield match on Saturday, I’ll provide a report on Tshimanga”. 

[Davefevs]

42 minutes ago, stortfordred said:

Was he involved in signing Elijah Adebayo? Guy had loan spells with Swindon and Cheltenham, has a 1 goal in 2 game ratio this season and looks a real handful. Just the kind of player our recruitment team should have spotted.

 

I don’t know. We didn’t discuss players, was more about how an “outsider” handles the fairly closed shop world of pro football, How they converse etc. 

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Harry said:

And my point is exactly this. We probably have plenty of fans across the country who might get to National League/other games when they can’t make it to City. Why shouldn’t we have a fan be able to enter a Chesterfield fixture under an official scout badge and write a full report on the chap. We need to expand the scouting network. What better than having fans, with a huge personal interest in our clubs well-being, to be out there providing reports at zero cost to the club. You personally should be encouraged to go to the next Chesterfield match and report on this lad. 
There should be a facility for you to be able to contact our Head of Recruitment and say “I’m going to the Torquay Chesterfield match on Saturday, I’ll provide a report on Tshimanga”. 

I’m sure you could provide a template to fill in, showing the things they want to know. 

[The Original OTIB]

3 minutes ago, Harry said:

And my point is exactly this. We probably have plenty of fans across the country who might get to National League/other games when they can’t make it to City. Why shouldn’t we have a fan be able to enter a Chesterfield fixture under an official scout badge and write a full report on the chap. We need to expand the scouting network. What better than having fans, with a huge personal interest in our clubs well-being, to be out there providing reports at zero cost to the club. You personally should be encouraged to go to the next Chesterfield match and report on this lad. 
There should be a facility for you to be able to contact our Head of Recruitment and say “I’m going to the Torquay Chesterfield match on Saturday, I’ll provide a report on Tshimanga”. 

Boreham Wood was local, but the point remains valid.

[Davefevs]

This is something I picked up from a Dutch Football Analyst re opposition. Scouting.

[The Original OTIB]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

This is something I picked up from a Dutch Football Analyst re opposition. Scouting.

Someone will bring up Lee Miller as a negative... actually, I just did.

[marmite]

Fascinating thread this. Thanks Harry.

[mozo]

38 minutes ago, Harry said:

And my point is exactly this. We probably have plenty of fans across the country who might get to National League/other games when they can’t make it to City. Why shouldn’t we have a fan be able to enter a Chesterfield fixture under an official scout badge and write a full report on the chap. We need to expand the scouting network. What better than having fans, with a huge personal interest in our clubs well-being, to be out there providing reports at zero cost to the club. You personally should be encouraged to go to the next Chesterfield match and report on this lad. 
There should be a facility for you to be able to contact our Head of Recruitment and say “I’m going to the Torquay Chesterfield match on Saturday, I’ll provide a report on Tshimanga”. 

Does that happen Harry?

I used to work with a bloke who watched games for Rotherham in his spare time. I suppose that makes him an actual scout but he didn't know any more about football than me as far as I was aware and certainly wasn't much of a 5-aside player!

I never understood how he ended up doing it.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Harry said:

No emotional baggage here mr finker. 
The article you linked is the article to which I referred in my opening post. So I’ve not attempted to hide anything. 
I have no chip on my shoulder at all. I’m simply extremely concerned that one of the most important roles at a pro football club is being run by amateurs. 
As for the agents I refer to; it’s not a small selection with minor clients. These are worldwide agencies, hugely respected. I know from personal conversations that our current set up is viewed as a laughing stock. It has to change. Immediately. 
 

I get it - Mr Gilhespy must be a friend of yours. That’s fine. And good on you for defending him. I have no doubts, as I said in my post, that he’s a nice chap and a competent data analyst. But do you really think he should be in charge of player recruitment for a club with Premier League ambition?? Be honest. 

There are two Post articles about this fella Gilhespy:
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/unseen-figure-heart-bristol-citys-5409108 - dated May 2021
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/inside-bristol-citys-recruitment-team-6030875 - dated October 2021
So you seem to be saying that you based your OP on the most recent October article (a couple weeks ago), but scratch the surface of the OP, it very much points to the May article.

For example, you say that your 'agent friends' have been contacting Gilhespy (the first article says that Gilhespy is the point of contact), however other sources like KITR are adamant that it is actually Gould who is the fella who deals with agents (you've gone as far as saying that Gould is a liar if he's said he has been dealing with agents - it couldn't possibly be that you're the one who is wrong). Either your 'agent friends' don't have their finger on the pulse and they are doing their clients a disservice by being their agents, or I suppose there could be a faint whiff of BS in your OP? Maybe that's the reason for not 'returning calls'?

You've indicated that the recruitment seems to consist of only analysts (in-line with the general content of the first Post article) but looking at the October article, it is clear that recruitment is a lot more involved than your meandering OP and involves more than just analysts.

The crux of your OP is that there is no head of recruitment, something identified in the first Post article:
"Bristol City are also weighing up bringing in more senior help, however. And a final decision is yet to be made on whether to bring in a new head of recruitment or director of football, alongside the new CEO, with talks underway on who may replace Ashton."
So are you regurgitating a potential problem that the Post identified in May or are you indicating that you independently identified this problem after the Post identified 5 months ago? If it's the later, maybe your powers of deduction need a recalibration?

Your pet show pony 'Mark Ashton' even gets a special mention:
"The recruitment team basically consisted of Ashton and…..ummmm, no one else."
Something that is demonstrated as being false in the Post articles.

I'll let you kid yourself that there is no 'emotional baggage' or that you don't have a 'chip on your shoulder'

This is an open board and on occasion, it is fair to check if an opinion, masquerading as fact, stands up to scrutiny. Maybe this is the reason for your petty barb in the reply, and I'm disappointed you couldn't do better (if only you could put as much effort into your barbs as you do your diatribes). But maybe a good indicator that I've gotten under your skin.

[And Its Smith]

47 minutes ago, Harry said:

And my point is exactly this. We probably have plenty of fans across the country who might get to National League/other games when they can’t make it to City. Why shouldn’t we have a fan be able to enter a Chesterfield fixture under an official scout badge and write a full report on the chap. We need to expand the scouting network. What better than having fans, with a huge personal interest in our clubs well-being, to be out there providing reports at zero cost to the club. You personally should be encouraged to go to the next Chesterfield match and report on this lad. 
There should be a facility for you to be able to contact our Head of Recruitment and say “I’m going to the Torquay Chesterfield match on Saturday, I’ll provide a report on Tshimanga”. 

This wouldn’t work surely as the knowledge of a lot of fans couldn’t be trusted 

[Harry]

4 minutes ago, bcfcfinker said:

There are two Post articles about this fella Gilhespy:
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/unseen-figure-heart-bristol-citys-5409108 - dated May 2021
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/inside-bristol-citys-recruitment-team-6030875 - dated October 2021
So you seem to be saying that you based your OP on the most recent October article (a couple weeks ago), but scratch the surface of the OP, it very much points to the May article.

For example, you say that your 'agent friends' have been contacting Gilhespy (the first article says that Gilhespy is the point of contact), however other sources like KITR are adamant that it is actually Gould who is the fella who deals with agents (you've gone as far as saying that Gould is a liar if he's said he has been dealing with agents - it couldn't possibly be that you're the one who is wrong). Either your 'agent friends' don't have their finger on the pulse and they are doing their clients a disservice by being their agents, or I suppose there could be a faint whiff of BS in your OP? Maybe that's the reason for not 'returning calls'?

You've indicated that the recruitment seems to consist of only analysts (in-line with the general content of the first Post article) but looking at the October article, it is clear that recruitment is a lot more involved than your meandering OP and involves more than just analysts.

The crux of your OP is that there is no head of recruitment, something identified in the first Post article:
"Bristol City are also weighing up bringing in more senior help, however. And a final decision is yet to be made on whether to bring in a new head of recruitment or director of football, alongside the new CEO, with talks underway on who may replace Ashton."
So are you regurgitating a potential problem that the Post identified in May or are you indicating that you independently identified this problem after the Post identified 5 months ago? If it's the later, maybe your powers of deduction need a recalibration?

Your pet show pony 'Mark Ashton' even gets a special mention:
"The recruitment team basically consisted of Ashton and…..ummmm, no one else."
Something that is demonstrated as being false in the Post articles.

I'll let you kid yourself that there is no 'emotional baggage' or that you don't have a 'chip on your shoulder'

This is an open board and on occasion, it is fair to check if an opinion, masquerading as fact, stands up to scrutiny. Maybe this is the reason for your petty barb in the reply, and I'm disappointed you couldn't do better (if only you could put as much effort into your barbs as you do your diatribes). But maybe a good indicator that I've gotten under your skin.

Fair enough finker. Everything is ok and we have a recruitment team absolutely fit for purpose. I was clearly wrong. 

[Harry]

6 minutes ago, mozo said:

Does that happen Harry?

I used to work with a bloke who watched games for Rotherham in his spare time. I suppose that makes him an actual scout but he didn't know any more about football than me as far as I was aware and certainly wasn't much of a 5-aside player!

I never understood how he ended up doing it.

 

Just now, And Its Smith said:

This wouldn’t work surely as the knowledge of a lot of fans couldn’t be trusted 

This isn’t to suggest that the club sign a player on the say so of John who watched him once at Guiseley. It’s to act as an initial ‘eyes-on’ report which, if interesting, can be backed up by the data analysis and further by physical scouting by someone fully employed by the club and with experience at talent ID. 
It’s just a suggestion that could be the first phase of getting a player onto the club list as a potential option. 
I’m certainly not suggesting that we sign a player ONLY on the say-so of a random fan. 

[And Its Smith]

1 minute ago, Harry said:

 

This isn’t to suggest that the club sign a player on the say so of John who watched him once at Guiseley. It’s to act as an initial ‘eyes-on’ report which, if interesting, can be backed up by the data analysis and further by physical scouting by someone fully employed by the club and with experience at talent ID. 
It’s just a suggestion that could be the first phase of getting a player onto the club list as a potential option. 
I’m certainly not suggesting that we sign a player ONLY on the say-so of a random fan. 

I appreciate you aren’t suggesting that. I just wonder what quality of player would be sent to the club in your example. No harm in getting a few trusted fans on board mind you. 

[Kid in the Riot]

15 minutes ago, bcfcfinker said:

For example, you say that your 'agent friends' have been contacting Gilhespy (the first article says that Gilhespy is the point of contact), however other sources like KITR are adamant that it is actually Gould who is the fella who deals with agents (you've gone as far as saying that Gould is a liar if he's said he has been dealing with agents - it couldn't possibly be that you're the one who is wrong).

I suspect Gilhespy may have been a temporary point of contact for agents for a month or two, in-between Ashton leaving and Gould being appointed. 

But since May/June we have had a very obvious point of contact at the club for agents - Gould - and he is the one who negotiates the incomings and outgoings. 

He is not however "talent ID" or a scout, and I think most would agree we need a chief scout/head of recruitment. 

However, this is hardly news... that position has been vacant since Day left, I guess?

[Clevedon Red]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Corrected!

A job for the younger person without a family and with lower wage expectations.

Now if I was a few years older and thinking of semi-retirement now wouldn’t that be a nice thought.

Either that or I’ll be fighting @Clevedon Redfor the minibus driver role!!! 

You take the analyst’s out I’ll deal with the drivers.

[Lrrr]

44 minutes ago, bcfcfinker said:

There are two Post articles about this fella Gilhespy:
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/unseen-figure-heart-bristol-citys-5409108 - dated May 2021
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/inside-bristol-citys-recruitment-team-6030875 - dated October 2021
So you seem to be saying that you based your OP on the most recent October article (a couple weeks ago), but scratch the surface of the OP, it very much points to the May article.

For example, you say that your 'agent friends' have been contacting Gilhespy (the first article says that Gilhespy is the point of contact), however other sources like KITR are adamant that it is actually Gould who is the fella who deals with agents (you've gone as far as saying that Gould is a liar if he's said he has been dealing with agents - it couldn't possibly be that you're the one who is wrong). Either your 'agent friends' don't have their finger on the pulse and they are doing their clients a disservice by being their agents, or I suppose there could be a faint whiff of BS in your OP? Maybe that's the reason for not 'returning calls'?

You've indicated that the recruitment seems to consist of only analysts (in-line with the general content of the first Post article) but looking at the October article, it is clear that recruitment is a lot more involved than your meandering OP and involves more than just analysts.

The crux of your OP is that there is no head of recruitment, something identified in the first Post article:
"Bristol City are also weighing up bringing in more senior help, however. And a final decision is yet to be made on whether to bring in a new head of recruitment or director of football, alongside the new CEO, with talks underway on who may replace Ashton."
So are you regurgitating a potential problem that the Post identified in May or are you indicating that you independently identified this problem after the Post identified 5 months ago? If it's the later, maybe your powers of deduction need a recalibration?

Your pet show pony 'Mark Ashton' even gets a special mention:
"The recruitment team basically consisted of Ashton and…..ummmm, no one else."
Something that is demonstrated as being false in the Post articles.

I'll let you kid yourself that there is no 'emotional baggage' or that you don't have a 'chip on your shoulder'

This is an open board and on occasion, it is fair to check if an opinion, masquerading as fact, stands up to scrutiny. Maybe this is the reason for your petty barb in the reply, and I'm disappointed you couldn't do better (if only you could put as much effort into your barbs as you do your diatribes). But maybe a good indicator that I've gotten under your skin.

Being fair we probably couldn't say Gould was already doing bits and pieces in any official capacity, so easy to say the longest serving person in our recruitment department was the point of contact until Gould was officially in his role.

[Simon79]

43 minutes ago, mozo said:

Does that happen Harry?

I used to work with a bloke who watched games for Rotherham in his spare time. I suppose that makes him an actual scout but he didn't know any more about football than me as far as I was aware and certainly wasn't much of a 5-aside player!

I never understood how he ended up doing it.

A friend of mine who is a Norwich fan scouted for them in the Southwest. This came about after Norwich got relegated (possibly early 2000’s) from the Premiership. He actually made contact with them to offer his services, which they accepted. They then sent him to various games to watch certain players & he had to fill out a report on these players. Which included strengths/weaknesses, & marking individual components of each individuals game. He would then hand in the reports & the club took over from there. It served as a base for the club to move forward or not on each individual. He enjoyed it, bumping in to various football people as well as helping his club. COYR 

[Davefevs]

43 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

I appreciate you aren’t suggesting that. I just wonder what quality of player would be sent to the club in your example. No harm in getting a few trusted fans on board mind you. 

In fairness, “random” fans suggest players to clubs quite frequently.  The question is what info does the person send in and what the club do with these?

- throw them straight in the bin

- have some form of filtering process

- reply to the sender asking them to fill in a standard scout report and then look at

- etc

Was chatting to a fellow OTIBer / Tweeter a few months back about this.  If you wanted City to take your player suggestion seriously, you’d do more than tweet Brian Tinnion and say “you had a look at this player, Bri?” wouldn’t you?

[Harry]

40 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I suspect Gilhespy may have been a temporary point of contact for agents for a month or two, in-between Ashton leaving and Gould being appointed. 

But since May/June we have had a very obvious point of contact at the club for agents - Gould - and he is the one who negotiates the incomings and outgoings. 

He is not however "talent ID" or a scout, and I think most would agree we need a chief scout/head of recruitment. 

However, this is hardly news... that position has been vacant since Day left, I guess?

You’re right - it’s hardly news. 
But as I specifically mention in the opening post, the fact that we had a data slicer as our focal point of contact in the last window is for me the missing piece which hadn’t featured in any of the Nige in/Nige Out/SL in/SL out debates. 
This was the single biggest problem of the summer 21 transfer window. 
We need to get a Head of Recruitment in situ as a matter of urgency. 
So whilst that’s not ‘new’ news, it seems to have been overlooked in every single thread about our current situation. 

[Bat Fastard]

Were thing so much better under "Uncle Pete Johnson? He seems to tick many of the boxes in the OP.

[RedRock]

26 minutes ago, Harry said:

You’re right - it’s hardly news. 
But as I specifically mention in the opening post, the fact that we had a data slicer as our focal point of contact in the last window is for me the missing piece which hadn’t featured in any of the Nige in/Nige Out/SL in/SL out debates. 
This was the single biggest problem of the summer 21 transfer window. 
We need to get a Head of Recruitment in situ as a matter of urgency. 
So whilst that’s not ‘new’ news, it seems to have been overlooked in every single thread about our current situation. 

Think a lot of us were banging on about the appointment of a Director of Football under the last couple of regimes.

Pity Steve didn’t listen to us, he could have saved himself a few £million, a lot of unnecessary anguish for him and us fans.