Passing

[And Its Smith]

The latest passing accuracy stats. I don’t think seeing us so low down in terms of accuracy and number of passes will surprise anyone. What is an ongoing concern is that, unlike WBA, our game plan isn’t necessarily to be that low down. We are inaccurate in our passes but not because we are direct due to a game plan necessarily.  

[DaveF]

We're actually higher than I expected to be fair!

[Davefevs]

Correct.  The trend is downwards too.  Over the first 6-8 games most of our stats were hovering around mid-table, a few just below….shots / goals conceded top hakf (believe it or not).  But over the last 6 games we’ve slumped right down.

[Abraham Romanovich]

2 minutes ago, DaveF said:

We're actually higher than I expected to be fair!

I was surprised we had a game plan.

[Simon bristol]

2 minutes ago, Abraham Romanovich said:

I was surprised we had a game plan.

Agreed, some of our attempts at playing football have been pathetic, kicking it long and playing percentages, badly

[Lanterne Rouge]

Baggies are a bit of a strange one aren`t they? Bottom?

[Wiltshire robin]

7 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Baggies are a bit of a strange one aren`t they? Bottom?

Could it mean they do lots of balls into the box 

[Carey 6]

Tell you what might help it a little, if we stopped doing that absolutely shit tactic at kick off of playing it back, then hoofing it up the line to Baker and hoping he wins the header. 9/10 times the ball just sails out of play. 

Not sure if we'll still do it without Baker, we used to do similar years ago but I've not seen it for a while until recently. Never understood it. 

[swanker]

West Brom’s fans thought that Simpson’s attempted back pass was one of the best they’d seen all season

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

Tell you what might help it a little, if we stopped doing that absolutely shit tactic at kick off of playing it back, then hoofing it up the line to Baker and hoping he wins the header. 9/10 times the ball just sails out of play. 

Not sure if we'll still do it without Baker, we used to do similar years ago but I've not seen it for a while until recently. Never understood it. 

With hopefully a return to a back 4 and Atkinson back in his best position I see more hope of playing a bit of football from the back tomorrow.

 

[Carey 6]

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

With hopefully a return to a back 4 and Atkinson back in his best position I see more hope of playing a bit of football from the back tomorrow.

 

Lets hope so. 

I cant' say I've watched too much of Barnsley this season, I know they're doing poorly but no idea why. 

Do they still attempt to press high & replicate the style of play they had under Ismael or has it gone another way?

Obviously losing Dike was massive for them.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Carey 6

[1960maaan]

Early signs were NP had got us moving and making angles better, still looking to get forward quickly, but more pass than lump.
As things have gone on we have regressed. We haven't kept the ball well for ages, lack of confidence or whatever we take the easy option too often. Even from the keeper we no longer ever pretend to play out, 80% of the time we go long.  IMO it's part of the reason we can't see games out, and part of the game we need to improve. Maybe when, what many look at as out best MF play together (James/Williams/HNM), we might be able to look after the ball better.

[Davefevs]

26 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

Lets hope so. 

I cant' say I've watched too much of Barnsley this season, I know they're doing poorly but no idea why. 

Do they still attempt to press high & replicate the style of play they had under Ismael or has it gone another way?

Obviously losing Dike was massive for them.

Still direct, but along with that big old lump Dike gone, they miss Mowatt in midfield too, aggression, quality left peg, etc.

The other two players missing of real note are:

- Sollbauer - gone back home I think

- Mads Andersen - imposing, aerial ball winning centre back - knee injury

Conor Chaplin, more bit part last season has gone to Ipswich, Carlton Morris is injured.  Between these two, Dike, Woodrow and Fieser they provided 60 mins of high intensity press every game before often a triple sub.  The 3/7 sub rule is a good example of why 5 shouldn’t be allowed imho.  I suspect it’s had an impact on how they press.

So, ultimately they are weaker than last season by some distance.

8 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I expect Barnsley would have been near the bottom last season too under the same manager.

Why?  Recruited in similar vain to the previous managers.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Davefevs

[Waconda]

57 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

Tell you what might help it a little, if we stopped doing that absolutely shit tactic at kick off of playing it back, then hoofing it up the line to Baker and hoping he wins the header. 9/10 times the ball just sails out of play. 

Not sure if we'll still do it without Baker, we used to do similar years ago but I've not seen it for a while until recently. Never understood it. 

We used to do something similar with Fielding in goal, always kicked it into touch, then it was revealed this was on purpose to give the opposition a throw in deep(ish) in their half so that we could press and win the ball high up.

[Davefevs]

Got you. Ta.

[Waconda]

8 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I mean Barnsley would have been near the bottom of the possession stat table last season under the same manager. Though I'm guessing on that. They didn't seem to have much possession in how they played.

Yeah last season Barnsley great example of how much game plan matters over quality. Though they had a solid enough unit and a little bit of quality in there too, it seemed to be largely down to how they must have been drilled to play.

That Styles always looked good whenever I saw him. How he comes in field on his right foot adding a number in the otherwise 2 man midfield.

Similar to Canos drifting into good positions from left wing back when Brentford played us end of last season. 

If we continue with wing backs then Dasilva was coming in field a lot on the rare occasion he played under Holden. Doesn't have to be exactly that but could do with more imagination how our players rotate positions.

On the subject of wings backs and Barnsley, did those 2 Britton and Styles ever not play? It goes to show players don't necessarily need a rest. Ridiculously hard work playing 3 games a week all season as wing backs in that team.

Love that triple sub strategy. Used to hate seeing defenders come on for us, or keeping on Wilbs because he could head corners, or Fam. We will have no threat any more up top as their legs are gone so you can have more corners, but we will head them away! Always prefer to go for another and if not then making it harder for opposing teams to attack.

Nothing worse than a team coming at us as we get deeper and deeper and they have nothing to worry about the other way.

This why NP has been so under whelming so far. 

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

We used to do something similar with Fielding in goal, always kicked it into touch, then it was revealed this was on purpose to give the opposition a throw in deep(ish) in their half so that we could press and win the ball high up.

That’s not strictly true….that’s just trotted out to look like it was meant that way.  The reason was 1) take advantage of height / aerial ability of Bryan / Mags 2) losing the ball there is less impacting (so yes I agree in part in what you say) than losing it in the centre of the pitch, 3) winning it there gets you up the pitch quickly. But he didn’t purposely kick it into touch.

But unfortunately, poorly executed by FF.  the margin for error small and FF not accurate enough.

[Clutton Caveman]

1 hour ago, And Its Smith said:

The latest passing accuracy stats. I don’t think seeing us so low down in terms of accuracy and number of passes will surprise anyone. What is an ongoing concern is that, unlike WBA, our game plan isn’t necessarily to be that low down. We are inaccurate in our passes but not because we are direct due to a game plan necessarily.  

Hard to pass to players who are hiding. Our movement off the ball has been awful for years

[Waconda]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That’s not strictly true….that’s just trotted out to look like it was meant that way.  The reason was 1) take advantage of height / aerial ability of Bryan / Mags 2) losing the ball there is less impacting (so yes I agree in part in what you say) than losing it in the centre of the pitch, 3) winning it there gets you up the pitch quickly. But he didn’t purposely kick it into touch.

But unfortunately, poorly executed by FF.  the margin for error small and FF not accurate enough.

It's not my opinion by the way. 

I heard different to you.

Edited October 29, 2021 by VT05763

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

On the subject of wings backs and Barnsley, did those 2 Britton and Styles ever not play? It goes to show players don't necessarily need a rest. Ridiculously hard work playing 3 games a week all season as wing backs in that team.

This is the levels of fitness Nige is trying to get to.  He’s said he doesn’t really believe in rotation / rest, all about competition for the shirt.

What also needs bearing in mind is intensity v distance.  Much easier to press intently over 5m than 25m.  Was the beauty of that 17/18 period.  Hunt in packs over short distances, don’t get passed around one-off pressers.  When you get it back, keep it.  We did that well in 17/18, tight units, working together.

Weimann and O’Dowda (you won’t like this) sometimes (not always) press on their own and just get played around.  They never quite get there.  Some of that is because we are too stretched as a team, but not always.

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

It's not my opinion by the way. 

I heard different to you.

Shows how badly executed it was, because he didn’t always find touch, and certainly not deep in their half

[CiderJar]

2 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

The latest passing accuracy stats. I don’t think seeing us so low down in terms of accuracy and number of passes will surprise anyone. What is an ongoing concern is that, unlike WBA, our game plan isn’t necessarily to be that low down. We are inaccurate in our passes but not because we are direct due to a game plan necessarily.  

A minor point maybe, but we are only a point and a place behind Swansea in the league.

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, CiderJar said:

A minor point maybe, but we are only a point and a place behind Swansea in the league.

The summary of this is that there is more than one way to play the game and get results.  If we are gonna play direct / forced by our opponents to play more direct, we need to execute it better, so we become more West Brom, than Barnsley!  God, that’s a dodgy thing to say ahead of tomorrow! Eeeeek!

[And Its Smith]

5 minutes ago, CiderJar said:

A minor point maybe, but we are only a point and a place behind Swansea in the league.

Absolutely and the table above doesn’t necessarily correlate to success. They have been better than us recently though and seem to be improving the longer Russell Martin managed them. Early days there was expected errors in their play as Martin’s way is somewhat different to his predecessor.  

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

We have a very mobile pair in Kalas and Atkinson if we were to play a higher line.

Tell me about it!  

[CiderJar]

37 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Tell me about it!  

Fevs do you have stats to back up that Kalas is the fastest player at the club?

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, CiderJar said:

Fevs do you have stats to back up that Kalas is the fastest player at the club?

Nope, physical data is impossible to get without £s!!

My eyes tell me he is effortlessly quick.  Atkinson is meant to be quick too, albeit takes a little while to get into his slightly peculiar stride.

In a very simplified manner, if you play high and predict you’re gonna have to chase back, you’re half a yard ahead in your head anyway.  If you play high, your midfield and forward can probably put more pressure on the passer of the ball, looking to go over the top.

In the 90s a lot of games were played out in the 10 yards either side of the half way line.  Was a bit boring at times, but I think it would suit us to play high.

[redysteadygo]

2 hours ago, JonDolman said:

Flint running over to the touchline for a Fielding kick

The latest goal kick xcrnario that narks me is when the "two centre backs " loiter in the area which normally attracts 2/3 opponents forward to cover. Having achieved what I consider a slight advantage if we now kick long Bentley waves the defenders forward and after an age he kicks long into an even more congested area around the halfway line.

 

[Davefevs]

19 minutes ago, redysteadygo said:

The latest goal kick xcrnario that narks me is when the "two centre backs " loiter in the area which normally attracts 2/3 opponents forward to cover. Having achieved what I consider a slight advantage if we now kick long Bentley waves the defenders forward and after an age he kicks long into an even more congested area around the halfway line.

 

It’s one of those scenarios where the you need to see where the rest of the players are.  You’re not just eliminating their 2 or 3 players who are pressing the centre backs and keeper, but whether you eliminate other players that then give you a numerical advantage….versus the risk of a header coming back into a position that leaves them with numerical advantage over you.  Not easy to explain in words.  Pros and cons, but bear in mind the stats will tell us the opponent will win more headers from a long kick than we will. Possession off the loose ball is key.

So I drew some pics.

Bentley kicks to Martin.  James and Massengo stay goalside of their midfield markers.  Ball win by Helik, drops into a position where Barnsley have 3 players close to it, Wells our closest.  They probably get position in a good situation to launch a quick attack.

James and Massengo gamble by making sure they are ahead of their men.  In this situation James and Wells likely get the dropping ball rather than Barnsley LWB.  But what if Bentley scuffs his kick.  The CM is in front of James and it’s 3 v 2.  In the scenario above v Barnsley 343 what we really need is Kalas to suck his man closer and leave a chip ball to Tanner, who then overloads their LWB with Weimann.

All very easy on paper / screen!

Hope the pics makes sense.  Very crude, but they sort of explain it.

[redysteadygo]

15 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

It’s one of those scenarios where the you need to see where the rest of the players are.  You’re not just eliminating their 2 or 3 players who are pressing the centre backs and keeper, but whether you eliminate other players that then give you a numerical advantage….versus the risk of a header coming back into a position that leaves them with numerical advantage over you.  Not easy to explain in words.  Pros and cons, but bear in mind the stats will tell us the opponent will win more headers from a long kick than we will. Possession off the loose ball is key.

So I drew some pics.

Bentley kicks to Martin.  James and Massengo stay goalside of their midfield markers.  Ball win by Helik, drops into a position where Barnsley have 3 players close to it, Wells our closest.  They probably get position in a good situation to launch a quick attack.

James and Massengo gamble by making sure they are ahead of their men.  In this situation James and Wells likely get the dropping ball rather than Barnsley LWB.  But what if Bentley scuffs his kick.  The CM is in front of James and it’s 3 v 2.  In the scenario above v Barnsley 343 what we really need is Kalas to suck his man closer and leave a chip ball to Tanner, who then overloads their LWB with Weimann.

All very easy on paper / screen!

Hope the pics makes sense.  Very crude, but they sort of explain it.

Yes I get that Dave, but whilst the ball is in flight our players starting from the edge of the box could be in their positions, sprinting past the opposition players, to cover a returning ball with the opposition players still returning to positions and not already set up.

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, redysteadygo said:

Yes I get that Dave, but whilst the ball is in flight our players starting from the edge of the box could be in their positions, sprinting past the opposition players, to cover a returning ball with the opposition players still returning to positions and not already set up.

Yes, they could absolutely be doing that….but they could also see the ball go back over their head too and be wrong side.

At the end of the day it’s all about risk and reward.

There are definitely situations where (I think) you are better off being wrong-side, but that depends on lots of other things.

As a centre-half I occasionally played as a holding midfielder.  Sometimes I’d have a midfield opponent who wanted to play in the gap between me and my fellow CBs.  If we we going long from our keeper, I would happily go wrong-side of him, reckoning that if a opponent header came back near me, it wasn’t gonna get to the player I’m meant to be marking, and I could move into a bit of space with the ball.  Had I marked goal-side, my opponent would get to the ball first….and I’d also be right on top of my fellow defenders.

So, swings and roundabouts and very dependent on other things.

Lots of stuff about CBs splitting wide, but unless you’re really good at it (Man City / Liverpool), all you do is negate the ability to get your full-backs on the ball.  Lots of play I see like a rubber band or several linked together, sometimes you can stretch it to effect, other times doing that affects another rubber band.

[redysteadygo]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yes, they could absolutely be doing that….but they could also see the ball go back over their head too and be wrong side.

At the end of the day it’s all about risk and reward.

There are definitely situations where (I think) you are better off being wrong-side, but that depends on lots of other things.

As a centre-half I occasionally played as a holding midfielder.  Sometimes I’d have a midfield opponent who wanted to play in the gap between me and my fellow CBs.  If we we going long from our keeper, I would happily go wrong-side of him, reckoning that if a opponent header came back near me, it wasn’t gonna get to the player I’m meant to be marking, and I could move into a bit of space with the ball.  Had I marked goal-side, my opponent would get to the ball first….and I’d also be right on top of my fellow defenders.

So, swings and roundabouts and very dependent on other things.

Lots of stuff about CBs splitting wide, but unless you’re really good at it (Man City / Liverpool), all you do is negate the ability to get your full-backs on the ball.  Lots of play I see like a rubber band or several linked together, sometimes you can stretch it to effect, other times doing that affects another rubber band.

Centre backs being wrong side in your first paragraph means those you are wrong sided of are offside.

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, Carey 6 said:

Lets hope so. 

I cant' say I've watched too much of Barnsley this season, I know they're doing poorly but no idea why. 

Do they still attempt to press high & replicate the style of play they had under Ismael or has it gone another way?

Obviously losing Dike was massive for them.

Plus Mowatt, Ismael and off the pitch Murphy arguably.

That's a side who have dropped down fast- in early June, they had reached the playoffs and had financial space to push on- Ismael, Murphy, Mowatt- and Marcondes linked on a free.

Fast forward to now and all gone- in a relegation scrap. Mind you if we lose tomorrow we might be as well!

[Mr Popodopolous]

I do think we need to improve in it. Not to excess but crisper, more compact- yes avoiding numerical overloads in central areas when applicable.

When we can finally field and particularly after a run together, James, Williams and Massengo as a central 3 I expect us to improve a) In possession both in terms of accuracy and absolute terms b) Become more compact and c) Perhaps a bit more bite. Certainly not the whole answer but will help.

[Davefevs]

34 minutes ago, redysteadygo said:

Centre backs being wrong side in your first paragraph means those you are wrong sided of are offside.

I’m on about James and Massengo, not the CBs. We’re you referring to the CBs, if so, then strikers offside.  I’m more worried about their midfielders bearing down on our CBs, as their strikers get their arses back onside

[Sleepy1968]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Weimann and O’Dowda (you won’t like this) sometimes (not always) press on their own and just get played around.  They never quite get there.  Some of that is because we are too stretched as a team, but not always.

When you mentioned COD 'getting there' (or not) this is the question my mind came up with:

If, every second, COD covers half the the remaining distance to his target player, how long does it take him to get there? And "not as long as it does at the moment" isn't the correct answer.

[firstdivision]

21 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Correct.  The trend is downwards too.  Over the first 6-8 games most of our stats were hovering around mid-table, a few just below….shots / goals conceded top hakf (believe it or not).  But over the last 6 games we’ve slumped right down.

To be fair, Dave, we’ve only needed our eyes to see that.  

[chinapig]

12 hours ago, Sleepy1968 said:

When you mentioned COD 'getting there' (or not) this is the question my mind came up with:

If, every second, COD covers half the the remaining distance to his target player, how long does it take him to get there? And "not as long as it does at the moment" isn't the correct answer.

Xeno's (or Zeno's if you prefer) paradox means he will never get there. Which of course he never does anyway.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, firstdivision said:

To be fair, Dave, we’ve only needed our eyes to see that.  

Absolutely, but you’ll see a fair few with agendas coming up with all manner of crap.

[And Its Smith]

53% success rate with our passing today. Truly embarrassing 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Today was all about the win. This will hopefully and at home especially breed some confidence- we've been alright away from home.

However the passing absolutely needs work, both in terms of possession in itself, the success rate of it, and then the ability to rest in possession.

Williams, James and Massengo as a 3- lay it our centrally as you like- should help with possession and also with the regaining of possession. 

[wendyredredrobin]

Most of the time it's not passing, it's hoofing the ball up the pitch to Martin & Wells, neither of which look like they even want to win it most of the time and then the ball comes back again.

More like what you expect to see in L1 to be honest.

It worked against Barnsley, who were quite poor, but it won't work against most of the teams in this league unless you have a 6ft 3 inch plus striker who is prepared to push defenders around a bit.

[Numero Uno]

14 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Today was all about the win. This will hopefully and at home especially breed some confidence- we've been alright away from home.

However the passing absolutely needs work, both in terms of possession in itself, the success rate of it, and then the ability to rest in possession.

Williams, James and Massengo as a 3- lay it our centrally as you like- should help with possession and also with the regaining of possession. 

James? He couldn't pass wind yesterday but it's far easier for people who aren't watching the game properly and want a scapegoat to blame Bakinson for the fact that we kept giving the ball away. I'll be honest, I think James has been underwhelming for weeks and needs to liven up a bit.

[Johnny Musicworks]

2 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

James? He couldn't pass wind yesterday but it's far easier for people who aren't watching the game properly and want a scapegoat to blame Bakinson for the fact that we kept giving the ball away. I'll be honest, I think James has been underwhelming for weeks and needs to liven up a bit.

And yet he made the Team of the week which demonstrates how people can see games differently.

[Numero Uno]

8 minutes ago, Johnny Musicworks said:

And yet he made the Team of the week which demonstrates how people can see games differently.

What, on his performance yesterday? If so the people picking that would have been off their heads on hallucinogenic drugs which, to be fair, is about the only thing that would have made that game bearable it was so low on quality. Did you see the game?

[Johnny Musicworks]

18 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

What, on his performance yesterday? If so the people picking that would have been off their heads on hallucinogenic drugs which, to be fair, is about the only thing that would have made that game bearable it was so low on quality. Did you see the game?

Yes and he wouldn’t have made Team of the Week for me but he did seem to make most of the tackles in midfield, albeit a very lightweight midfield that was largely overwhelmed defensively. I would like to see Han make more tackles  but he seems to lack the awareness defensively and always has to chase to retrieve rather than be in position to face up to players coming through. He is good at nicking the ball off players but could do a few more Tanner-type tackles with his strength. With Williams and King out the onus is on James defensively and I thought he did okay but nothing more than that.

[And Its Smith]

47 minutes ago, Johnny Musicworks said:

And yet he made the Team of the week which demonstrates how people can see games differently.

That is laughable. Less than half of his passes went to a red shirted player. 

[HappyClapper]

Can anyone explain how James is one of the best midfielders in the championship yesterday? Good player but …..

Answers on a postcard please

[Waconda]

may come as news to many but ........

 

Passing is not one of our priorities right now. Missing the midfield out all together is the order of the day.

[redysteadygo]

7 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

may come as news to many but ........

 

Passing is not one of our priorities right now. Missing the midfield out all together is the order of the day.

Especially when no one is showing.

[Waconda]

Just now, redysteadygo said:

Especially when no one is showing.

Pre determined game plan. "take a touch and knock it".

[And Its Smith]

10 minutes ago, HappyClapper said:

Can anyone explain how James is one of the best midfielders in the championship yesterday? Good player but …..

Answers on a postcard please

It is baffling. It’s stats driven (and I’m not a huge stats fan in the main) but I fail to see what stats James produced yesterday to get him in.  His passing was around 50% accuracy, he lost more headers than he won, he made a few tackles but not many.  He didn’t carry the ball. He allegedly created two chances but I cannot remember them unless they might mean crossing in a corner that for once missed the first defender.  Maybe it’s an error!

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

James? He couldn't pass wind yesterday but it's far easier for people who aren't watching the game properly and want a scapegoat to blame Bakinson for the fact that we kept giving the ball away. I'll be honest, I think James has been underwhelming for weeks and needs to liven up a bit.

Think all 3 played as individuals yesterday.  Think he’s been off it against Bournemouth and West Brom, thought he was decent enough v Forest.  Really need to find a pairing / combo / three that works.

1 hour ago, Johnny Musicworks said:

And yet he made the Team of the week which demonstrates how people can see games differently.

2 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

It is baffling. It’s stats driven (and I’m not a huge stats fan in the main) but I fail to see what stats James produced yesterday to get him in.  His passing was around 50% accuracy, he lost more headers than he won, he made a few tackles but not many.  He didn’t carry the ball. He allegedly created two chances but I cannot remember them unless they might mean crossing in a corner that for once missed the first defender.  Maybe it’s an error!

Ta, saved me a post.  He had a shot saved….1st half, but I was shocked too.

[Waconda]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Think all 3 played as individuals yesterday.  Think he’s been off it against Bournemouth and West Brom, thought he was decent enough v Forest.  Really need to find a pairing / combo / three that works.

Ta, saved me a post.  He had a shot saved….1st half, but I was shocked too.

Our current style of play and tactics don't suit him.

Rarely receives the ball in space with any time.

High amount of possession turn overs which leads to him having to chase "shadows".

Needs to be in a passing/possession type team to excel - IMO.

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Our current style of play and tactics don't suit him.

Rarely receives the ball in space with any time.

High amount of possession turn overs which leads to him having to chase "shadows".

Needs to be in a passing/possession type team to excel - IMO.

We had a much better mix of play earlier this season.  It’s gone to pot in recent weeks.

[Waconda]

14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

We had a much better mix of play earlier this season.  It’s gone to pot in recent weeks.

This.

[Waconda]

43 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

The one thing our midfielders should be able to do is control and pass the ball. It is not just down to players being good at it though, needs work on the training ground.

James has the quality needed, Massengo technically excellent, not got the range or consistency of passing as James but he should manage the basics of keeping possession in a team set up that is built to pass the ball.

Bakinson one of our most technically gifted players. Can take it in tight spaces. As long as he isn't careless, which I don't think he was once yesterday, then a passing game suits him.

Even King, he hasn't been great, but you don't play for Leicester for years without being able to control and pass the ball!

We have very good technically gifted defenders. What left back has a better touch than Dasilva at this level. Tanner is a classy player too. Full backs don't get forward much because of how we play. Keep the ball more and they then will, and we will see more of what they can do.

Atkinson a ball playing centre back at the wrong club it seems as he almost never brings it out! Kalas capable of it too. 

Maybe ahead of the midfield is not perfect. But Wells played in a QPR team that passed the ball well and was top championship scorer so I doubt he'd mind it if we passed the ball instead of going long all the time!

I actually think our system against there's yesterday made it tough as it was so scrappy. And it being scrappy seemed to suit us more. As soon as it was more open that's when they took over.

We had the ball in good areas numerous times. I think there was a lack of quality in the forward areas yesterday except for the end of the first half. A number of promising positions wasted.

I am very much in the "players to fit the system camp" but why, if claimed we are stuck with an uncoachable, deadwood rabble are we not at least trying to play with a system that suits their strengths ? We have some technically decent players currently struggling to cope in a very direct style.  

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

James? He couldn't pass wind yesterday but it's far easier for people who aren't watching the game properly and want a scapegoat to blame Bakinson for the fact that we kept giving the ball away. I'll be honest, I think James has been underwhelming for weeks and needs to liven up a bit.

Still think that's our best 3, overall- certainly individually. James doesn't go to a poor player overnight, looked good early on and showed what he could do in his loan at Coventry from Christmas onwards.

[Numero Uno]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Still think that's our best 3, overall- certainly individually. James doesn't go to a poor player overnight, looked good early on and showed what he could do in his loan at Coventry from Christmas onwards.

I don’t disagree but yesterday he was our weakest midfield player. He looked like he had won a fan’s competition at times. Hopefully he’ll get back to what he can do on Tuesday. We still lack leaders in this squad, something I was hoping James might be, and that is something Nige really must address.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

I don’t disagree but yesterday he was our weakest midfield player. He looked like he had won a fan’s competition at times. Hopefully he’ll get back to what he can do on Tuesday. We still lack leaders in this squad, something I was hoping James might be, and that is something Nige really must address.

Yeah yesterday he wasn't great- can't disagree, although one statistical metric seemed to have him in the team of the week- lack of good CM performances?

King and James as 1st team regulars could provide leadership maybe- although King isn't really at this stage of his career a 1st team regular. Leaders wise, seems the personnel change- talented, hit and miss, poor whatever- but the leadership issue rolles on.

[Waconda]

7 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yeah yesterday he wasn't great- can't disagree, although one statistical metric seemed to have him in the team of the week- lack of good CM performances?

King and James as 1st team regulars could provide leadership maybe- although King isn't really at this stage of his career a 1st team regular. Leaders wise, seems the personnel change- talented, hit and miss, poor whatever- but the leadership issue rolles on.

Kalas is a fantastic leader and role model for the others unless you are looking for a "screamer and shouty" type ?

 

 

Edited October 31, 2021 by VT05763

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, VT05763 said:

Kalas is a fantastic leader and role model for the others unless you are looking for a "screamer and shouty" type ?

True, leadership can be shown in different ways I guess. His post match comments after Barnsley and Huddersfield were a good example, thinking last season when he was almost pleading for a more positive approach.

[Waconda]

7 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

True, leadership can be shown in different ways I guess. His post match comments after Barnsley and Huddersfield were a good example, thinking last season when he was almost pleading for a more positive approach.

Yes, he needed more help.

We were sat behind the goal at the front yesterday and he was definitely in charge.

[maxjak]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

We had a much better mix of play earlier this season.  It’s gone to pot in recent weeks.

Have to agree.........I was under the impression that under NP, gradual and steady progress was the mantra..........but quite honestly we have regressed in the past 4-5 games.  i am concerned that for whatever reason we are not improving or making progress.  Surely a manager or coach begins to create a style/pattern of play and create an identity over a period of time, with it a given that there are bound to bumps and  setbacks along the way.

I see very little progress being made, and although we won yesterday, we were pretty awful, and rode our luck.  I appreciate patience is needed, but a modicum of evolution would be expected by now, and i am still on the fence as far  as Nige is concerned.

[maxjak]

1 hour ago, billywedlock said:

Team has no confidence and players are not being brave . Atkinson does not bring the ball out anymore , James has no one to pass to . It’s a tough one to solve . With a tight squad you cannot have your seniors pros , namely Palmer and COD not contributing , they are taking up squad space . Add to that Williams unable to get fit and Antoine missing ( our only power player ) and very soon your options in midfield are limited . The case of Palmer is significant. Big fee and big wages , that sort of investment should have given us a regular starter in midfield . So where some of our investment should have given us the big players to drag us out of our panic stations we are relying on youthful players like HNM and Bakinson. Both very talented but unable to take on a misfiring teams lack of confidence . 
 

We can undoubtedly play better than we are and Nige has to come up with better solutions in formation . We are so narrow , like a triangle almost and we leave so much space on the flanks . Play us , tactics simple , hit diagonals !

But every comment on here I have heard from NP also , so it is not a case of him not seeing it or not recognising what is said. But imho there has been far too many changes , back 3 or back 4 and we are yet to find a midfield set up that does not leave all that space . The coaches wanting to leave ( it seems they asked to leave ) is a blessing and an opportunity. If we use it correctly . Nige has to set us up better in my view as there is simply too much space available to the opposition . I like a lot of what Nige is doing but need him and the coaches to solve an issue that every team we play now focuses on. 
 

The pressure on the players at home was huge , and was getting them increasingly stressed . It was obvious . Look at the comments on here . They were scared to lose and scared to win .

Amongst all of this , I still see some excellent traits that will help as we rebuild . The desire and willingness of some of our big players is there . Incredible professionalism from Kalas , Bents and James . 
 

If the team can gain some confidence , win a second home game , get a few goals , there is so much more to come . The 2 goals yesterday , and many others this season , are of the highest order . Showing what we could do . 
 

A year of highs and lows and development . But from that you do build great strength and a team working for each other is something we have missed for a few years now . 

Great post.........I really feel that if somehow we had recruited a goalscorer to take the pressure off of Martin and to have been a foil for Wells....it would make a tremendous difference, as the team as a whole would expect that, a forward popping up with some goals when we are maybe not playing particularly well, would allow the pressure to be taken off.  Easily said I know.....but it is such a shame, as it would be such a massive benefit?   I am not even talking about a 20 goal a season striker ......but someone akin to Barnsley's  Woodrow would have done, maybe?

[Waconda]

3 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Great post.........I really feel that if somehow we had recruited a goalscorer to take the pressure off of Martin and to have been a foil for Wells....it would make a tremendous difference, as the team as a whole would expect that, a forward popping up with some goals when we are maybe not playing particularly well, would allow the pressure to be taken off.  Easily said I know.....but it is such a shame, as it would be such a massive benefit?   I am not even talking about a 20 goal a season striker ......but someone akin to Barnsley's  Woodrow would have done, maybe?

Piroe cost Swansea £1 million

He would have been ideal.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Unless I dreamt it, I'm sure we were linked with Piroe at one point in the summer? Was going to mention him but already done.

£1m fee and at that age is fine- all depends on the wages he's on though I guess, although as a young player at PSV perhaps not that large.

3 year deal, £1m- about £0.33m per year in amortisation.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Have to agree.........I was under the impression that under NP, gradual and steady progress was the mantra..........but quite honestly we have regressed in the past 4-5 games.  i am concerned that for whatever reason we are not improving or making progress.  Surely a manager or coach begins to create a style/pattern of play and create an identity over a period of time, with it a given that there are bound to bumps and  setbacks along the way.

I see very little progress being made, and although we won yesterday, we were pretty awful, and rode our luck.  I appreciate patience is needed, but a modicum of evolution would be expected by now, and i am still on the fence as far  as Nige is concerned.

I hope yesterday is a new baseline.  Back 4 whatever Nige, sod the back 5.  And build a cohesive front 6.  I know it’s all a bit “hopeful” but if we can get Williams back for Blackburn, and Semenyo too, then I see them making a big difference.

Think it’s going through that tough stage at the mo.

Its easy to throw around comments like - “I’m not sure he knows his best team or system”, but most team are very different in November than expected in August!  It’s not trying to make excuses, shit happens.

As I posted in the week, James, Williams and Massengo have not played 1 minute together this season.

Nige seems to finally be positioning some players as “buck up now”.  When asked how Vyner and Palmer can get back in the 18 he responded “train well”.  Let’s hope they get the message.  I think he’s getting close to going with the youngsters again in some cases.

Tuckman: 

Forming

Storming

Norming

Performing

Think we are still somewhere between stage 1 and 2.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I would not mind seeing this 18, when available and especially when they can have a bit of a run together...outline the CM 3 in whichever way. The miss by Wells of course not ideal but I just wonder when we will need to start using Martin a bit more sparingly- switch Wells and Martin as appropriate. Although every time I wonder if Martin needs a bit of rotation he comes up with something!

               Bentley

Tanner Kalas Atkinson DaSilva

   James Williams Massengo

    Weimann Wells Semenyo

Subs: O'Leary, Vyner, Baker, King, Pring, Scott, Martin.

Bakinson first reserve for King or even you could switch between the two- because King probably wasn't brought to play a lot of games.

Weimann out of possession, will need to pull wider at times to help Tanner out, Semenyo definitely with DaSilva- Pring on the bench, usable as either LB or LM.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Waconda]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I would not mind seeing this 18, when available and especially when they can have a bit of a run together...outline the CM 3 in whichever way. The miss by Wells of course not ideal but I just wonder when we will need to start using Martin a bit more sparingly- switch Wells and Martin as appropriate. Although every time I wonder if Martin needs a bit of rotation he comes up with something!

               Bentley

Tanner Kalas Atkinson DaSilva

   James Williams Massengo

    Weimann Wells Semenyo

Subs: O'Leary, Vyner, Baker, King, Pring, Scott, Martin.

Bakinson first reserve for King or even you could switch between the two- because King probably wasn't brought to play a lot of games.

Weimann out of possession, will need to pull wider at times to help Tanner out, Semenyo definitely with DaSilva- Pring on the bench, usable as either LB or LM.

I do feel we have missed Semenyos physical presence and general chaos making runs of late and although never going to be a prolific scorer of goals. he definitely unsettles teams, breaks the lines and is proactive. I would be tempted to try him alongside Weimann or Wells in a front 2 if we are to continue with our current style of play.