Bristol Clean Air Zone

[BTRFTG]

Folks appear to be signally missing the fundamental flaw in the policy.

If folks simply 'cough-up' (every pun intended,) the charge how much pollutant is removed from the air? Answer - NONE.

And to those who say folks will pay up, look at areas where charges have been in for some time. In London (over double the national average) around 1 in 20 vehicles on the road is untaxed, uninsured and registered incorrectly, so they don't pay charges. There's also a sizeable proportion of 'foreign' registered vehicles on the streets, including those driven by otherwise law abiding folks who 'play the system'. I live on an upmarket road and six of my neighbours have exotically registered, top of the range vehicles that incur no charges and collect non-traceable parking tickets like confetti. There are even foreign leasing companies that swap, flip and temporarily export vehicles just for this explicit purpose.  Those driving and parking anywhere in central London the daily charges amount to the better part of £100 per day (assuming you'd ever pay the reduced parking fine.)

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by BTRFTG

[Kid in the Riot]

27 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Folks appear to be signally missing the fundamental flaw in the policy.

If folks simply 'cough-up' (every pun intended,) the charge how much pollutant is removed from the air? Answer - NONE.

And to those who say folks will pay up, look at areas where charges have been in for some time. In London (over double the national average) around 1 in 20 vehicles on the road is untaxed, uninsured and registered incorrectly, so they don't pay charges. There's also a sizeable proportion of 'foreign' registered vehicles on the streets, including those driven by otherwise law abiding folks who 'play the system'. I live on an upmarket road and six of my neighbours have exotically registered, top of the range vehicles that incur no charges and collect non-traceable parking tickets like confetti. There are even foreign leasing companies that swap, flip and temporarily export vehicles just for this explicit purpose.  Those driving and parking anywhere in central London the daily charges amount to the better part of £100 per day (assuming you'd ever pay the reduced parking fine.)

People could choose to cough up, but £9 a day is quite prohibitive. More likely is people will avoid the area, or if they have the option use alternative transport. The London Congestion Zone has reduced pollutants by around 60%.

As for London's wealthy playing the system - no surprise there. 

[Red-Robbo]

45 minutes ago, spudski said:

They are going to have to find a better more sustainable way, than using lithium battery's. Very difficult and expensive to recycle. And apparently only 70 years left of lithium on the planet. You can imagine the price, problems as it gets scarcer. Sticking a plaster over a problem ATM.

 

 

Those 70 years of reserves are more than oil at expected rates on consumption increase, and lithium recycling technology has advanced significantly in the past decade. 

However, yeah, the focus is on powering EVs, renewable energy farms and phone batteries with less expensive materials than lithium.  Watch the very interesting video about aluminium ion batteries, recently posted in the Green Energy section of the politics bit of the forum. 

[spudski]

17 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Those 70 years of reserves are more than oil at expected rates on consumption increase, and lithium recycling technology has advanced significantly in the past decade. 

However, yeah, the focus is on powering EVs, renewable energy farms and phone batteries with less expensive materials than lithium.  Watch the very interesting video about aluminium ion batteries, recently posted in the Green Energy section of the politics bit of the forum. 

The technology to run sustainably and long term is already in out there.

It still comes down to money and profit.

If we truly wanted to change quickly we could.

Sadly influencial people still want to use up unsustainable resources and make profits.

This video shows what can be done with seawater. It can be used in all forms of transport. It's worth researching.

 

[Red-Robbo]

4 minutes ago, spudski said:

The technology to run sustainably and long term is already in out there.

It still comes down to money and profit.

If we truly wanted to change quickly we could.

Sadly influencial people still want to use up unsustainable resources and make profits.

This video shows what can be done with seawater. It can be used in all forms of transport. It's worth researching.

 

 

Interestingly, lithium extraction from seawater is another cutting-edge technology being prototyped out there.

Even without climate change, we will have to make the switch from powering the world via coal and oil, so money is becoming available for ways to transition. 

[BTRFTG]

1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

People could choose to cough up, but £9 a day is quite prohibitive. More likely is people will avoid the area, or if they have the option use alternative transport. The London Congestion Zone has reduced pollutants by around 60%.

As for London's wealthy playing the system - no surprise there. 

You sound like Khan and where I live air quality has significantly declined under his tenure and will signally worsen when his idiotic Silvertown Tunnel scheme is introduced. You also miss the blindingly obvious. Take my regular trips to and from AG. Do I pollute central London? No, as it's impossible to access these days given traffic, where it is still permitted, is 24/7 gridlock along the few roads remaining open.  Do I cover an ADDITIONAL 120 POLLUTING miles through the suburbs and outer London? Sure as hell I must. Traffic and the pollution it causes doesn't decrease, it actually increases where displaced. 

[Kid in the Riot]

4 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

You sound like Khan and where I live air quality has significantly declined under his tenure and will signally worsen when his idiotic Silvertown Tunnel scheme is introduced. You also miss the blindingly obvious. Take my regular trips to and from AG. Do I pollute central London? No, as it's impossible to access these days given traffic, where it is still permitted, is 24/7 gridlock along the few roads remaining open.  Do I cover an ADDITIONAL 120 POLLUTING miles through the suburbs and outer London? Sure as hell I must. Traffic and the pollution it causes doesn't decrease, it actually increases where displaced. 

Interesting you go straight to mentioning Khan. The LDN congestion zone was brought in in 2003, a full 13 years before he became London Mayor. 

Fact is, dangerous levels of air pollutants need to be dealt with, by law. As I'm sure you know full well, the impact of air pollutants in inner city areas is far more dangerous than in rural/semi rural areas where most motorways are located. 

[Victory Park Reds]

I’ve been reading this thread with interest.Fair play to many of you involved.Otib definitely has some very clever people with great knowledge.

Despite that I think the whole scheme is shite and marvellous Marvin is an absolute fraud who has spunked away millions on various schemes.

Green mayor Marvin my arse.2 words Mr Mayor- Brislington Meadows!! Remember when you wanted to be elected again.***

[Bristol Rob]

58 minutes ago, Victory Park Reds said:

I’ve been reading this thread with interest.Fair play to many of you involved.Otib definitely has some very clever people with great knowledge.

Despite that I think the whole scheme is shite and marvellous Marvin is an absolute fraud who has spunked away millions on various schemes.

Green mayor Marvin my arse.2 words Mr Mayor- Brislington Meadows!! Remember when you wanted to be elected again.***

Which apparently he doesn't!! (want to be elected again).

Still, what a legacy he leaves. The fact you can get to the arena on an underground train and enjoy your journey back to any one of the 2000 affordable homes he built is surely the mark of truly great man.

Oh wait, no. His legacy is that he once watched two people play a game of chess in City Hall. 

[Barrs Court Red]

4 hours ago, Victory Park Reds said:

I’ve been reading this thread with interest.Fair play to many of you involved.Otib definitely has some very clever people with great knowledge.

Despite that I think the whole scheme is shite and marvellous Marvin is an absolute fraud who has spunked away millions on various schemes.

Green mayor Marvin my arse.2 words Mr Mayor- Brislington Meadows!! Remember when you wanted to be elected again.***

He should face some sort of investigation for that. Committed a government body to pay millions of tax payers money, only to do a u-turn.

[Red-Robbo]

11 hours ago, Barrs Court Red said:

He should face some sort of investigation for that. Committed a government body to pay millions of tax payers money, only to do a U-turn.

 

I guess that's what a lot of mayors do. Boris Johnson as Mayor of London spent £34m on consultations over his garden bridge proposal, before dropping it. 

[italian dave]

22 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Folks appear to be signally missing the fundamental flaw in the policy.

If folks simply 'cough-up' (every pun intended,) the charge how much pollutant is removed from the air? Answer - NONE.

And to those who say folks will pay up, look at areas where charges have been in for some time. In London (over double the national average) around 1 in 20 vehicles on the road is untaxed, uninsured and registered incorrectly, so they don't pay charges. There's also a sizeable proportion of 'foreign' registered vehicles on the streets, including those driven by otherwise law abiding folks who 'play the system'. I live on an upmarket road and six of my neighbours have exotically registered, top of the range vehicles that incur no charges and collect non-traceable parking tickets like confetti. There are even foreign leasing companies that swap, flip and temporarily export vehicles just for this explicit purpose.  Those driving and parking anywhere in central London the daily charges amount to the better part of £100 per day (assuming you'd ever pay the reduced parking fine.)

 

 

22 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

People could choose to cough up, but £9 a day is quite prohibitive. More likely is people will avoid the area, or if they have the option use alternative transport. The London Congestion Zone has reduced pollutants by around 60%.

As for London's wealthy playing the system - no surprise there. 

Agree 100% @BTRFTG. It’s always seemed to me to be a pretty ineffective ‘clean air’ scheme that simply allows people to pollute if they choose to pay to do so. 

I drive through Europe from time to time and have had to deal with clean air zones there more and more often in recent years. There are two significant differences that apply in the vast majority of cases there.

Firstly, lots of them come into operation if and when air quality levels hit certain thresholds. In other words they address the problem when it occurs.

Secondly, pretty much all of them deal with it by simply banning vehicles, not by allowing them to continue to pollute as long as they pay. 

Isn’t the point of the “congestion” zone different to the point of a “clean air “ zone? I don’t know what the impact of London’s clean air zone has been in terms of pollutants. That’s much more recent than the congestion zone, so maybe there’s less evidence?

I don’t know London as well as you do, but it strikes me that the congestion zone area in central London is now pretty much as congested as it ever was, albeit with fewer vehicles, because they’ve reduced pretty much everything to single lane traffic with traffic lights every 100m that stay red 90% of the time.

I think the point you make Kid is often forgotten: the mayors always get the blame for this, whether it’s Johnson, Khan or Rees: the reality is that they are reacting to legislation that imposes requirements on them by governments who simply pass the buck and do very little to help or support. So you get Liam Fox - whose party has been in government for over a decade and is responsible for the clean air legislation that requires these zones - sitting there on TV last week trying to score political points by criticising the Bristol zone. Hypocrite. 

[Judda]

On 05/11/2021 at 23:35, Sweeneys Penalties said:

thats me buggered then. 

Mine is petrol 04 plate and is no charge...

[TonyTonyTony]

I fail to see how looking to improve the environment we live in is a bad thing. You must have a very old car if this affects you tbh. 

[pillred]

2 hours ago, Judda said:

Mine is petrol 04 plate and is no charge...

Are you sure? I thought only petrol cars built 2006 onwards were exempt. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

3 hours ago, TonyTonyTony said:

I fail to see how looking to improve the environment we live in is a bad thing. You must have a very old car if this affects you tbh. 

My car is 9 years old. I pay 20 quid a year tax on it yet I have to pay the charge. 

[pillred]

29 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

My car is 9 years old. I pay 20 quid a year tax on it yet I have to pay the charge. 

Diesel I presume as petrol cars that age are exempt. If so why not just part exchange it or sell it and buy a petrol car of similar value I mean a car from 2006/ 2010 shouldn't cost too much then you can drive around and not have to pay the charge.

Edited December 1, 2022 by pillred
Punctuation.

[Kid in the Riot]

8 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

My car is 9 years old. I pay 20 quid a year tax on it yet I have to pay the charge. 

Snap. It's due to the amount of nitrogen dioxide (NO2) produced by diesel cars which irritates the lungs of people with breathing problems, such as asthma. It's not really a problem driving them in rural areas, like on motorways, as there is space for the harmful particles to dissipate. But in urban settings, the particles are trapped between buildings on either side of the road and thus get breathed in by pedestrians walking alongside the road. That is why yours and my cars are discouraged from entering the clean air zone, via the charge. 

[mattjb]

30 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Snap. It's due to the amount of nitrogen dioxide (NO2) produced by diesel cars which irritates the lungs of people with breathing problems, such as asthma. It's not really a problem driving them in rural areas, like on motorways, as there is space for the harmful particles to dissipate. But in urban settings, the particles are trapped between buildings on either side of the road and thus get breathed in by pedestrians walking alongside the road. That is why yours and my cars are discouraged from entering the clean air zone, via the charge. 

You’d think there was something that could be retro fitted to some of the older diesels to make them run cleaner ? Maybe there is but I guess they just want diesels off the road.

[archie andrews]

1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Snap. It's due to the amount of nitrogen dioxide (NO2) produced by diesel cars which irritates the lungs of people with breathing problems, such as asthma. It's not really a problem driving them in rural areas, like on motorways, as there is space for the harmful particles to dissipate. But in urban settings, the particles are trapped between buildings on either side of the road and thus get breathed in by pedestrians walking alongside the road. That is why yours and my cars are discouraged from entering the clean air zone, via the charge. 

Ruddy hell... Imagine if you lived by the bus station in the 70s even 80s..

[Eddie Hitler]

40 minutes ago, archie andrews said:

Ruddy hell... Imagine if you lived by the bus station in the 70s even 80s..

 

The effect of having lead in petrol was far far worse making people with high exposure stupid and violent; this was probably the cause of the rise in football hooliganism and glam rock.

 

A meta-analysis of studies examining the relationship between lead and conduct problems arrived at a similar conclusion, suggesting that the magnitude of the relationship between lead exposure and behavior is comparable to the relationship between lead exposure and I.Q.^[3] While the scientific literature suggests there is a relationship between lead exposure and behavioral issues such as delinquency and criminality, directly relating these observations to the decrease in overall criminality is more difficult.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead–crime_hypothesis

 

The last country to use it, Algeria, finally stopped last year.

https://news.sky.com/story/leaded-petrol-phased-out-in-the-algeria-the-last-country-to-stop-using-the-fuel-12395326

[Ska Junkie]

12 hours ago, pillred said:

Are you sure? I thought only petrol cars built 2006 onwards were exempt. 

My lad has a 2005 type R and that passes too.

[weepywall]

2 hours ago, mattjb said:

You’d think there was something that could be retro fitted to some of the older diesels to make them run cleaner ? Maybe there is but I guess they just want diesels off the road.

There is something you can fit to reduce emissions,  I know someone who had it done on a VW Transporter, think it cost about £1700 tho.

[Eddie Hitler]

27 minutes ago, weepywall said:

There is something you can fit to reduce emissions,  I know someone who had it done on a VW Transporter, think it cost about £1700 tho.

 

Diesel Particulate Filter I would guess.  I thought most diesel cars had them now but the wording below says some don't.

 

While no jurisdiction has explicitly made filters mandatory, the increasingly stringent emissions regulations that engine manufactures must meet mean that eventually all on-road diesel engines will be fitted with them.^[14] In the European Union, filters are expected to be necessary to meet the Euro.VI heavy truck engine emissions regulations currently under discussion and planned for the 2012-2013 time frame. In 2000, in anticipation of the future Euro 5 regulations PSA Peugeot Citroën became the first company to make filters standard on passenger cars

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_particulate_filter

[Barrs Court Red]

2 hours ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

The effect of having lead in petrol was far far worse making people with high exposure stupid and violent; this was probably the cause of the rise in football hooliganism and glam rock.

 

A meta-analysis of studies examining the relationship between lead and conduct problems arrived at a similar conclusion, suggesting that the magnitude of the relationship between lead exposure and behavior is comparable to the relationship between lead exposure and I.Q.^[3] While the scientific literature suggests there is a relationship between lead exposure and behavioral issues such as delinquency and criminality, directly relating these observations to the decrease in overall criminality is more difficult.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead–crime_hypothesis

 

The last country to use it, Algeria, finally stopped last year.

https://news.sky.com/story/leaded-petrol-phased-out-in-the-algeria-the-last-country-to-stop-using-the-fuel-12395326

A podcast I listen to put forward the notion that Lead is a major factor why there were so many serial killers in the states during the 70s and 80s, and peoples violent behaviour in general. 
 

 

[freezer]

Surprised that my 2004 petrol Merc is exempt but thems the rules.

[Bristol Rob]

If nothing else comes from this thread, one thing I have learnt is that very few of us are what was once called 'Petrol Heads' as none of us seem to be moaning that our special edition super-fast Japanese import is subject to the charge.

 

 

 

 

[italian dave]

11 hours ago, freezer said:

Surprised that my 2004 petrol Merc is exempt but thems the rules.

The rules rely on the Euro emissions standard of the car and the dates they quote are the dates on which that standard became compulsory. It”s possible that a particular model was compliant with a higher standard before it became compulsory.

So, Euro 4 is the lowest standard that’s exempt. That became compulsory in 2006, but I’d guess that Mercedes were building cars to that standard in 2004. 

[italian dave]

On 29/11/2022 at 11:11, frenchred said:

I believe Liverpool city council had the balls not to implement it after a huge backlash in manchester

Have you seen the size of the proposed Manchester one though? We’re not talking Manchester City centre. Others on here will have more idea, but every time we’ve stopped off on the way to an away game anywhere in Lancashire this past year we seem to end up in the proposed zone. Sometimes in quite rural areas, sometimes in towns miles from Manchester. 

[pillred]

2 hours ago, italian dave said:

Have you seen the size of the proposed Manchester one though? We’re not talking Manchester City centre. Others on here will have more idea, but every time we’ve stopped off on the way to an away game anywhere in Lancashire this past year we seem to end up in the proposed zone. Sometimes in quite rural areas, sometimes in towns miles from Manchester. 

With the sale of new ICE cars being stopped after 2030 and now older cars being charged to drive in towns it is really beginning to look like the government are trying to price a large percentage of the population off the roads. I mean how is the average man or woman going to come up with the money to buy an electric car I know there will be second hand ones available by then but have you seen the price of replacement batteries? the sort of cars working class people will be able to afford the batteries will be coming to the end of there useful life. 

[Eddie Hitler]

45 minutes ago, pillred said:

With the sale of new ICE cars being stopped after 2030 and now older cars being charged to drive in towns it is really beginning to look like the government are trying to price a large percentage of the population off the roads. I mean how is the average man or woman going to come up with the money to buy an electric car I know there will be second hand ones available by then but have you seen the price of replacement batteries? the sort of cars working class people will be able to afford the batteries will be coming to the end of there useful life. 

 

I entirely agree but as a minor caveat you will still be able to buy new hybrid cars after 2030 so if you really want an ICE car, and I do because IMHO driving around with an enormous heavy battery is the sort of stupid idea that a child might come up with, then simply buy one of those hybrids with a small battery and a small electric only range and you will continue to have all the benefits of an ICE car - range, longevity - albeit for a chunky cost premium.

[And Its Smith]

48 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

I entirely agree but as a minor caveat you will still be able to buy new hybrid cars after 2030 so if you really want an ICE car, and I do because IMHO driving around with an enormous heavy battery is the sort of stupid idea that a child might come up with, then simply buy one of those hybrids with a small battery and a small electric only range and you will continue to have all the benefits of an ICE car - range, longevity - albeit for a chunky cost premium.

Why is driving around with a battery a childish idea? I’ve had an electric car for over two years. No issues. 

[freezer]

4 hours ago, italian dave said:

The rules rely on the Euro emissions standard of the car and the dates they quote are the dates on which that standard became compulsory. It”s possible that a particular model was compliant with a higher standard before it became compulsory.

So, Euro 4 is the lowest standard that’s exempt. That became compulsory in 2006, but I’d guess that Mercedes were building cars to that standard in 2004. 

Must've, mine is Euro 3. 

Not complaining mind, great excuse to keep driving it. 

[Eddie Hitler]

32 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Why is driving around with a battery a childish idea? I’ve had an electric car for over two years. No issues. 

 

Why would you add the very substantial extra weight of both the battery structure and the electrolyte within it to a vehicle when you can dispense with both so making the vehicle much lighter and therefore much more energy efficient?

ICE technology doesn't require fossil fuels to operate. It can work with biofuels and potentially liquid ammonia which is already produced on an industrial scale:

 

https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/molecule-of-the-week/archive/a/ammonia.html#:~:text=Ammonia is produced commercially via,Fritz Haber and Carl Bosch.

 

[And Its Smith]

4 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

Why would you add the very substantial extra weight of both the battery structure and the electrolyte within it to a vehicle when you can dispense with both so making the vehicle much lighter and therefore much more energy efficient?

ICE technology doesn't require fossil fuels to operate. It can work with biofuels and potentially liquid ammonia which is already produced on an industrial scale:

 

https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/molecule-of-the-week/archive/a/ammonia.html#:~:text=Ammonia is produced commercially via,Fritz Haber and Carl Bosch.

 

I don’t know what half of those words mean, sorry! Maybe I am a child!  I love my electric car though much more than my old diesel one 

[Ska Junkie]

11 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

I don’t know what half of those words mean, sorry! Maybe I am a child!  I love my electric car though much more than my old diesel one 

How much has the cost changed ais, with the price hikes in electricity? That's a genuine question btw.

[Eddie Hitler]

11 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

I don’t know what half of those words mean, sorry! Maybe I am a child!  I love my electric car though much more than my old diesel one 

 

Fair enough!

IMHO EVs make a lot of sense where the land is fairly flat, so the extra weight isn't an issue, and there are a lot of charging points available meaning not having to queue.

This generally means cities.

I have no issue with their being complementary to ICEs on the basis of "horses for courses" but as they make little sense in rural areas with a lot of hills the government shouldn't be replacing ICEs wholesale.

[TonyTonyTony]

23 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

Why would you add the very substantial extra weight of both the battery structure and the electrolyte within it to a vehicle when you can dispense with both so making the vehicle much lighter and therefore much more energy efficient?

ICE technology doesn't require fossil fuels to operate. It can work with biofuels and potentially liquid ammonia which is already produced on an industrial scale:

Electric cars are certainly heavier, however the weight distribution is better. More evenly distributed and down the centre of the car. You dont feel like the car is heavy at all, and the handling is better.

BTW Re Ammonia. Ammonia is essentially derived from natural gas. Whilst ammonia itself is not a fossil fuel, its derived from one (like a lot of things)

[And Its Smith]

11 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

How much has the cost changed ais, with the price hikes in electricity? That's a genuine question btw.

It’s gone up a fair bit but still better than diesel. I’m driving from Bristol to Aberdeen soon. Priced it up last year and reckoned it would be £80 return. Priced it up yesterday and reckon it’s now £110-120.  Diesel probably £180+ I guess. I’m a bit out of date on diesel prices so that’s very rough 

[Eddie Hitler]

3 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

It’s gone up a fair bit but still better than diesel. I’m driving from Bristol to Aberdeen soon. Priced it up last year and reckoned it would be £80 return. Priced it up yesterday and reckon it’s now £110-120.  Diesel probably £180+ I guess. I’m a bit out of date on diesel prices so that’s very rough 

 

Please dont mention diesel prices on the forum.  I'm going to have to have a lie down in a darkened room now 

[Bristol Rob]

1 minute ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

Please dont mention diesel prices on the forum.  I'm going to have to have a lie down in a darkened room now 

It's not as if you get a free chunky tumbler with every £6 these days, either.

Which was something that always baffled me, why did they give away wine glasses and whisky tumbers with fuel, it was almost as if they wanted people to be done for drink driving. 

[pillred]

3 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

It’s gone up a fair bit but still better than diesel. I’m driving from Bristol to Aberdeen soon. Priced it up last year and reckoned it would be £80 return. Priced it up yesterday and reckon it’s now £110-120.  Diesel probably £180+ I guess. I’m a bit out of date on diesel prices so that’s very rough 

That's going to be a lot of stops for recharging, that is the thing that at the moment really puts me off EVs that and the amount you could end up spending on food and coffees in places whilst you wait an hour to recharge, a lot to be said for popping in the petrol station 4 mins later on your way, my car does at least 60mpg on a run and in theory I could do Bristol to Aberdeen easily on one tankful (not that I would ever be able to do that without many comfort stops at my age :laugh:).

[Barrs Court Red]

Absolutely love my electric car.  It absolutely destroys all comers from a standing start at lights. 
 

what it doesn’t do well though, is motorway driving - you’ll get about 60% of the advertised range.  That’s a big issue, and I would imagine range will double each generation of vehicle. 

[freezer]

1 hour ago, Barrs Court Red said:

Absolutely love my electric car.  It absolutely destroys all comers from a standing start at lights. 
 

what it doesn’t do well though, is motorway driving - you’ll get about 60% of the advertised range.  That’s a big issue, and I would imagine range will double each generation of vehicle. 

Ah the old hare and tortoise thing. 

What's your 0 - 60? Heard they can be rapid. 

[italian dave]

9 minutes ago, freezer said:

Ah the old hare and tortoise thing. 

What's your 0 - 60? Heard they can be rapid. 

Supposedly so. I read an interview with the boss of Ferrari a while back. He was asked how you persuade those ‘petrol heads’ to accept electric Ferraris and his answer basically was speed - or acceleration. He recognised that they just needed to work on the noise! 

[freezer]

17 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Supposedly so. I read an interview with the boss of Ferrari a while back. He was asked how you persuade those ‘petrol heads’ to accept electric Ferraris and his answer basically was speed - or acceleration. He recognised that they just needed to work on the noise! 

Certainly do, or we'll all be getting run over in the CAZ by fast and silent killing machines

[And Its Smith]

5 hours ago, pillred said:

That's going to be a lot of stops for recharging, that is the thing that at the moment really puts me off EVs that and the amount you could end up spending on food and coffees in places whilst you wait an hour to recharge, a lot to be said for popping in the petrol station 4 mins later on your way, my car does at least 60mpg on a run and in theory I could do Bristol to Aberdeen easily on one tankful (not that I would ever be able to do that without many comfort stops at my age :laugh:).

Probably 90 mins of charging. I would want to stop for probably an hour anyway so I only see it as 30 mins more. 

[Port Said Red]

14 hours ago, freezer said:

Ah the old hare and tortoise thing. 

What's your 0 - 60? Heard they can be rapid. 

My Corsa e is advertised as being 6.9s, I think they must have measured it going up hill, because I could probably do that in normal mode. In sports mode my wife measured it at 5.5 with her phone timer. The thing is being automatic and having so much torque, you are literally thrown back in your seat when you put your foot down.

Anyway, seeing this thread I looked up the charges, and of course it's free for people like @And Its Smith and I everywhere.....  except Central London where it would still cost £17 even for us!

[Red-Robbo]

30 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

My Corsa e is advertised as being 6.9s, I think they must have measured it going up hill, because I could probably do that in normal mode. In sports mode my wife measured it at 5.5 with her phone timer. The thing is being automatic and having so much torque, you are literally thrown back in your seat when you put your foot down.

Anyway, seeing this thread I looked up the charges, and of course it's free for people like @And Its Smith and I everywhere.....  except Central London where it would still cost £17 even for us!

My approach is always to roll up slowly to two-lane lights. Even if you're doing under 5mph when they turn green, as long as you're in motion you'll still blow away the nippiest sports car that is stationary.  

[Calculus]

I have to pick.my daughter  up from Temple Meads a bit later. Surprised to find that the train station is in the zone (as is tbe bus station).  Not so much as about encouraging public transport use as a council revenue raising exercise. 

[Port Said Red]

53 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

My approach is always to roll up slowly to two-lane lights. Even if you're doing under 5mph when they turn green, as long as you're in motion you'll still blow away the nippiest sports car that is stationary.  

I like it when some idiot drives right up behind you, through a 20 or 30mph zone, trying to hurry you up. Watching them disappearing in the rearview mirror when you shoot off at the end is fun, especially as I don't have the green number plate and my car looks like a standard Corsa.

[redsquirrel]

2 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

My Corsa e is advertised as being 6.9s, I think they must have measured it going up hill, because I could probably do that in normal mode. In sports mode my wife measured it at 5.5 with her phone timer. The thing is being automatic and having so much torque, you are literally thrown back in your seat when you put your foot down.

Anyway, seeing this thread I looked up the charges, and of course it's free for people like @And Its Smith and I everywhere.....  except Central London where it would still cost £17 even for us!

i was listening to a radio phone yesterday,londons mayor is changing it to cover the whole of london, they were talking about ULEZ. apparently,every time a resident goes out in their car,they will have to pay it. i think this is different to the £17 you are referring to but how much money are they trying to con here? 

ULEZ Expansion 2023 - Transport for London (tfl.gov.uk)

[italian dave]

6 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

My approach is always to roll up slowly to two-lane lights. Even if you're doing under 5mph when they turn green, as long as you're in motion you'll still blow away the nippiest sports car that is stationary.  

Never had you down as a boy racer RR

[Lanterne Rouge]

5 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Never had you down as a boy racer RR

I bet his horn plays La Cucaracha too.

[And Its Smith]

On 02/12/2022 at 17:35, pillred said:

That's going to be a lot of stops for recharging, that is the thing that at the moment really puts me off EVs that and the amount you could end up spending on food and coffees in places whilst you wait an hour to recharge, a lot to be said for popping in the petrol station 4 mins later on your way, my car does at least 60mpg on a run and in theory I could do Bristol to Aberdeen easily on one tankful (not that I would ever be able to do that without many comfort stops at my age :laugh:).

I’ve now done Bristol to Aberdeen and back again.  3 stops of the way up,  3 stops on the way up, 3 on the way back and one overnight charge there.  £130 in electricity.  The 6 motorway stops averaged about 30 mins each but would want to stop regularly anyway.  Overall a pretty pleasant experience and a hell of a lot cheaper for 3 people than planes or trains 

[Judda]

On 30/11/2022 at 23:52, pillred said:

Are you sure? I thought only petrol cars built 2006 onwards were exempt. 

Yup. Promise! 

[BTRFTG]

On 02/12/2022 at 13:16, And Its Smith said:

Why is driving around with a battery a childish idea? I’ve had an electric car for over two years. No issues. 

Unless one wishes to travel any distance in a timely fashion.

[BTRFTG]

On 02/12/2022 at 17:45, Barrs Court Red said:

Absolutely love my electric car.  It absolutely destroys all comers from a standing start at lights. 
 

what it doesn’t do well though, is motorway driving - you’ll get about 60% of the advertised range.  That’s a big issue, and I would imagine range will double each generation of vehicle. 

Batteries don't work like that. To increase range you'd need more batteries, heavier weight, less space, deceased efficiency. There's also the major problem that there aren't enough precious metals on the planet to create all the batteries required to power private transport, nor charging infrastructure to support them.

Electric cars, like their diesel & petrol counterparts are hugely damaging to the planet, the difference with electric being the damage released is at distance to the vehicle itself, but out of sight - out of mind, eh?  As with all the 'carbon offset' crap, there isn't sufficient capacity to trap CO2, plant trees or whatever harebrained scheme folks propose. Folks pollute as normal and salve their consciences by paying  levies that do precisely Sweet FA.

The solution is to ban private transport but with the state of public transport and public transport operatives that's a wholly unrealistic proposition.

[And Its Smith]

57 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Unless one wishes to travel any distance in a timely fashion.

Not experienced any issues with getting anywhere timely other than a trip to Cornwall which didnt have the infrastructure when I did it.  As I said above, Aberdeen to Bristol?  No issues.  If I had been driving a diesel or petrol car, it would have probably saved me 30 minutes which is nothing considering the distance. 

[pillred]

55 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Batteries don't work like that. To increase range you'd need more batteries, heavier weight, less space, deceased efficiency. There's also the major problem that there aren't enough precious metals on the planet to create all the batteries required to power private transport, nor charging infrastructure to support them.

Electric cars, like their diesel & petrol counterparts are hugely damaging to the planet, the difference with electric being the damage released is at distance to the vehicle itself, but out of sight - out of mind, eh?  As with all the 'carbon offset' crap, there isn't sufficient capacity to trap CO2, plant trees or whatever harebrained scheme folks propose. Folks pollute as normal and salve their consciences by paying  levies that do precisely Sweet FA.

The solution is to ban private transport but with the state of public transport and public transport operatives that's a wholly unrealistic proposition.

They won't have it though they are almost evangelical in their obsession, you are right unless there is a major leap forward in the performance of batteries made from alternative materials then we are almost certain to run out of the raw materials to make enough batteries for the amount of cars needed to replace the ICE.

[James54De]

1 hour ago, BTRFTG said:

Batteries don't work like that. To increase range you'd need more batteries, heavier weight, less space, deceased efficiency. There's also the major problem that there aren't enough precious metals on the planet to create all the batteries required to power private transport, nor charging infrastructure to support them.

Electric cars, like their diesel & petrol counterparts are hugely damaging to the planet, the difference with electric being the damage released is at distance to the vehicle itself, but out of sight - out of mind, eh?  As with all the 'carbon offset' crap, there isn't sufficient capacity to trap CO2, plant trees or whatever harebrained scheme folks propose. Folks pollute as normal and salve their consciences by paying  levies that do precisely Sweet FA.

The solution is to ban private transport but with the state of public transport and public transport operatives that's a wholly unrealistic proposition.

First Point: The rapid development of battery technology renders your point completely invalid. Currently most battery’s are Lithium Ion, in the future who knows. Solid State batteries are supposedly the next big thing, giving longer life and immensely quick recharging times. Point being, we are at the end of development when it comes to petrol, we have barely scratched the surface of battery development and there are opportunities being explored in their thousands right now. 

Second Point: Yes, EV’s are only as good as the energy source of the electric. However over the past year 34% of British power production has be renewable, 17% nuclear and 42% gas, all far (very far) cleaner than our inefficient petrol or diesel engines. 

[Red-Robbo]

Those worrying about the run-out of lithium reserves this century should bear in mind that oil reserves are forecast to run out before lithium.

The question is how we wean ourselves off oil, not why we're doing it. 

[semblar]

On 02/12/2022 at 17:45, Barrs Court Red said:

Absolutely love my electric car.  It absolutely destroys all comers from a standing start at lights. 
 

what it doesn’t do well though, is motorway driving - you’ll get about 60% of the advertised range.  That’s a big issue, and I would imagine range will double each generation of vehicle. 

That depends on how you do the motorway driving. I can get to Alton Towers and back on a full charge if I stick at 65 on the motorway outside of all those 50mph roadworks... which is about 10 minutes longer in each direction even if it feels slow to begin with. Do the same trip hitting 80 on the motorway and I need a 30 minute charge... but I'd probably stop for a break anyway. My car's advertised range is 331 miles, I can definitely get over 300 in the summer, maybe 270-280 this time of year 

 

Edit: Agreed on the standing start - you'd need a supercar to beat even an average electric car...

Edited December 13, 2022 by semblar

[BTRFTG]

1 hour ago, James54De said:

First Point: The rapid development of battery technology renders your point completely invalid. Currently most battery’s are Lithium Ion, in the future who knows. Solid State batteries are supposedly the next big thing, giving longer life and immensely quick recharging times. Point being, we are at the end of development when it comes to petrol, we have barely scratched the surface of battery development and there are opportunities being explored in their thousands right now. 

Second Point: Yes, EV’s are only as good as the energy source of the electric. However over the past year 34% of British power production has be renewable, 17% nuclear and 42% gas, all far (very far) cleaner than our inefficient petrol or diesel engines. 

Batteries all work on the same principle, the only variant being the chemical composition of cathode, anode and substance acting as electrolyte. We know the elements in the periodic table, their properties and their availability. We also know there is no magic cure to producing compact, powerful, efficient and SAFE batteries. There will likely be marginal improvements, but nothing to reliably power long distance, fast, cold weather energy hungry transport even to the point at which carbons become too expensive to use. 

As I type 62% of UK power generation is fossil, renewables just over 10%.  If you're charging your electric car now its pie in the sky to think alternate sources are able to provide, notwithstanding 13% of UK electricity is at present being imported.

[italian dave]

Ten pages in, and Bristol ‘s clean air zone is starting to feel like the least of our problems.

[22A]

From Stoke's forum...https://oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/306738/bristol-clean-zone-charges-enter

its a ploy from Bristol fans too lead stoke further into the FFP quagmire by charging for the club coach!

[James54De]

2 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Batteries all work on the same principle, the only variant being the chemical composition of cathode, anode and substance acting as electrolyte. We know the elements in the periodic table, their properties and their availability. We also know there is no magic cure to producing compact, powerful, efficient and SAFE batteries. There will likely be marginal improvements, but nothing to reliably power long distance, fast, cold weather energy hungry transport even to the point at which carbons become too expensive to use. 

Solid State batteries are slated to be up to 50% more energy dense. Even then without the inevitable improvement on energy consumption that’s likely worth an extra 150 miles. 

 

2 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

As I type 62% of UK power generation is fossil, renewables just over 10%.  If you're charging your electric car now its pie in the sky to think alternate sources are able to provide, notwithstanding 13% of UK electricity is at present being imported.

As you type. Irrelevant compared to a yearly outlook. Let me remind you that >90% of petrol is fossil fuel, burning at a relatively low efficiency. 

[Lanterne Rouge]

22 minutes ago, 22A said:

From Stoke's forum...https://oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/306738/bristol-clean-zone-charges-enter

its a ploy from Bristol fans too lead stoke further into the FFP quagmire by charging for the club coach!

They can drop the players off at Failand and they can walk down and back.

[Ashtonboy]

I've entered about half a dozen different model petrol cars into the online app, for friends and family and haven't found a vehicle which will be charged,  including a15 year old Honda people carrier.

[RedRock]

Well, I’ve just bought an electric bicycle which feels like it would give my GSX1400 a good run for its money!

If that bicycle is anything to go by, the future is electric.

Was tempted to wait for the next generation 400-450 mile range cars but might put up with less now in exchange for being ‘green’ and the smooth, blisteringly fast power delivery.