Pearson & Fleming : OUT

[Bar BS3]

57 minutes ago, 054123 said:

I know you love city and just want us to do well, me too, so I’m not looking to be awkward but any team that finishes 15th or lower is going to have multiple these.

I agree that if it were a Johnson season where we should be finishing top 6, then it would unacceptable. For me I just thought we needed to stay up this year and by definition it meant the majority of games would be a struggle.

If we played with a shape, pattern & plan but just weren't good enough, then I'd agree - but honestly can't fathom what NP is doing or trying to instil into the team. 

We have no identity, style or tactics. 

It's literally like he just sends out a team of players and (very) occasionally, they at least feel up to battling for the game. 

We can & should be better, even if that better, isn't great. 

Too much of what's terrible should be able to be tinkered with to Improve, but it just doesn't happen and after 35/36 games, with the record he has to show, it's utterly unacceptable, imo. 

At least make us hard to beat & shite, rather than easy to beat & shite..! 

[Waconda]

3 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

If we played with a shape, pattern & plan but just weren't good enough, then I'd agree - but honestly can't fathom what NP is doing or trying to instil into the team. 

We have no identity, style or tactics. 

It's literally like he just sends out a team of players and (very) occasionally, they at least feel up to battling for the game. 

We can & should be better, even if that better, isn't great. 

Too much of what's terrible should be able to be tinkered with to Improve, but it just doesn't happen and after 35/36 games, with the record he has to show, it's utterly unacceptable, imo. 

At least make us hard to beat & shite, rather than easy to beat & shite..! 

Much truth in this, 3rd line especially.

[Redrascal2]

22 minutes ago, swanker said:

Pearson ain’t going nowhere. We lack quality players at the moment, everyone at the club knows that plus Pearson still wants to get rid of a few.

Dont panic, we’re witnessing a club in transition. 

Transitioning from the Championship to league 1 maybe.

[Bar BS3]

45 minutes ago, Swede said:

Yes; I would agree with everything you state. It's hard watching opposition having the better of most if not all games.

I think we were nose diving out of the Division last season and easily the worst team in the league hence the change in manager. We simply couldn't have gone on any further with the inexperienced Holden in charge.

With a new manager comes a new direction. Painful though it is but NP has arrested the slide. Maybe not quickly enough for some but a root and branch type review is exactly what was needed.

I think another bad result from another bad performance really just underlines the monumental mess we were left in from the previous regime.

I could possibly buy into that, until you look at our record of when a Holden was in charge, compared to the same amount of games that NP has been in charge. 

NP has had a transfer window and has key players available that were crocked for most of Holden’s tenure. 

I dont/didnt expect miracles, but I expected a darn site better than the utter dross we've had since NP has been here, and (bar the very odd spirited exception) look worse week after week..! 

[Swede]

2 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

I could possibly buy into that, until you look at our record of when a Holden was in charge, compared to the same amount of games that NP has been in charge. 

NP has had a transfer window and has key players available that were crocked for most of Holden’s tenure. 

I dont/didnt expect miracles, but I expected a darn site better than the utter dross we've had since NP has been here, and (bar the very odd spirited exception) look worse week after week..! 

That's a fair point. We've also lost players who wanted out or were entitled to move on because of the rules surrounding offering the same or improved terms to players in a covid affected market Dhiedhou, Paterson & Walsh spring to mind.

[Davefevs]

57 minutes ago, MattWSM said:

No I don't think he is the answer. 

It's a Brownhill type

Brownhill never really read the game and broke up play as per your requirements in your initial post.  We do miss Brownhill though.  Imagine him and a fit Williams with a peak-Pack.  That would be a v.good MF3.

47 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

I understand the need to rebuild and re-set . I knew that any improvement would not be linear given the depth of our squad and legacy issues.

I listen to NP's interviews and apart from the occasional almost spat-like sequence with an interviewer, I find him to talk more sense than several of his predecessors.

I made the point last season whilst he was caretaker that ,imo, he shouldn't be given the job until the very end of the season and I was definitely a minority voice. His record was W L L W D L L L D D L L L so 2 wins 3 draws and 9 losses. And a three year contract.

I don't think it could have got any worse so this season was always more likely to be an improvement This season he's played 23 matches and W7  D5 and L 11.  In the last 12 matches ( half the matches played) he has lost 7. This is where I have the problem about green shoots/improvement/right direction etc. I just dont see it when combined with performances which have been genuinely very poor and we've been incredibly fortunate not to have had a pasting from various teams courtesy of their bad finishing and not our resolute defending.

The record after over 8 months since Nige took over is Played 37 Lost 20 Drawn 8 and Won9 . If our performances showed that the players we have are giving their all for the shirt, team and Manager then I'd be less scathing. But the reality is that good moments of football are not in anything other than fleetingly brief periods and to my eyes  it's looking worse not better with relegation being a genuinely possible outcome. For this reason, I believe that unless there is an upturn in both points and performances then SL should cut his losses in December and bring in a new coach for the January window with the sole objective/brief to keep us in this division.

I think this is a reasoned argument albeit an unpopular one and not one that shrieks "Agenda" except to the many who perhaps dont have such a reasoned response as yourself. On that note thanks for you courteous, comprehensive and understandable reply.

39 minutes ago, 054123 said:

I don’t think you have an agenda. I think you have an opinion and try to make it. I think you just want city to succeed like we all do.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle at the moment.

I think we are hamstrung financially as a club which limits Steve Ls hand in both managerial and player decisions. We have created an awful FFP time bomb which I’m sure you’re aware of.

I personally don’t believe that it gets much better if at all, with another managerial change at this point.

My hope for this season was always that we stay up and i think we’ll do that. After that, I’m not sure. 

Im really concerned about FFP sanctions if we do not sell some players.

We gambled under Ashton and Johnson and like all gambled there’s a chance they don’t come off.

 

Good post.

MRR, the good thing is that you debate, discuss, you respond to questions / challenges, pose the same back.  That’s OTIB at its best, even when coming from either side of the face.  At least we understand where each comes from.

I’m not happy with the combination of results and performances.  Nobody watching on Robinstv / red button shouted at the screen as much as me today.  I got told off by Mrs Fevs and mini-Mrs Fevs!!

I could easily sit here tonight and start a thread - Pearson Out, and come up with reasons why.  But I wouldn’t be being honest to myself, because I really think this is a mess…and I’m grateful he took the challenge.  He may not succeed, none of us knows.

I probably haven’t articulated this next thought very well in the past.  I started to allude to it over the break.  We have players who in the past may well have looked better because they were made to by others, or because they just created a great partnership?  Without some of those teammates, who’ve now moved on, they’re a bit exposed, it’s them having to step up to the plate, no security blanket in players x and y to save their bacon.

So our squad isn’t as strong as it might feel it is on paper.  It only looks fine, lower / mid-table when everyone is fit and available and in form.  As every little link breaks the chain becomes weaker.  We do have enough to stay in games and eke out results, but we will have games where we are exposed, like today.  United with Sande Berge £16m and Brewster £23m in their ranks, although it was freebie McGoldrick and Wolves loanee Gibbs-White who were the thorns in our side.

I think Nige / Gould have recognised that and will attempt to bring forward some of next summer’s transfer options, but I think it’s not gonna go down well with the fans…e.g. one or two Tanners and Atkinsons.

We have to hang in there.

I might be barking up the wrong tree but I sense Nige’s determination to succeed, almost a challenge to take a club like City and completely turn it around against a tough backdrop.  In some respects his reputation post-City doesn’t matter, I think this will be his last job.  I’m not sure some other managers would’ve accepted this job, even those bright young(er) things in lower leagues, who might worry about a Champ relegation on their CVs ending their careers.

Never dull is it?

[bcfcnick]

29 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Not saying you are wrong, but interested in how you’d construct the team / personnel to change us to play a passing game. I don’t think it’s just a case of picking the more technical players btw.

I’m not sure we have the players, but I’m happy to be open minded to what you come up with.

To play that style I think it's a mindset and basic instructions rather than chopping and changing personnel from within the sqad.  A simple start would be for Bentley not to hoof it over the midfield every time he gets possession.  It has to be an instruction from the coaching staff.  You like your stats and it would be interesting to see the %  that we lose possession from that tactic alone.   I'm sure it would be an exceptionally high figure.  Football at its best is a simple game, and if you are asking one of the slowest players on the pitch (Martin) to chase a ball against much faster players then the outcome isn't hard to predict.   

As far as personnel is concerned ,I think all the players, with the exception of Weimann and the centre halves, are much better suited to a possession based game.   We do need a clinical finisher though and part of the problem is a lack of goals in the team from centre backs chipping in right the way through the team. We've not has a goal scoring midfielder for quite a while now.   It's an interesting exercise to add up the expected goals per player from all those playing and, unfortunately, it's not a high tally and is part of the problem.

So I am not saying a change of style would send us shooting up the league table without some goals added to the side which wouldn't be easy with the available budget, but if we are going to be in the wrong half we can at least start to play attractive football that would suit the abilities and development of the likes of Scott, Benarous, Massengo, Bakinson, Atkinson, Tanner, o'dowda, Pring etc. They should be allowed to play without fear as well as they are all good footballers and I don't think the way we play brings the best out of players and clearly it's not bringing the best in terms of results either.

[Northern Red]

34 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 I might be barking up the wrong tree but I sense Nige’s determination to succeed, almost a challenge to take a club like City and completely turn it around against a tough backdrop.  In some respects his reputation post-City doesn’t matter, I think this will be his last job.  I’m not sure some other managers would’ve accepted this job, even those bright young(er) things in lower leagues, who might worry about a Champ relegation on their CVs ending their careers.

This is a very important point. I accept that there probably are managers out there who could have come in and made more of an instant impact than Nige has, had us playing better football, maybe had us with better results. But would they have been up for the challenge of basically rebuilding the club behind the scenes, where you might have to sacrifice short term results for long term progress?

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, bcfcnick said:

To play that style I think it's a mindset and basic instructions rather than chopping and changing personnel from within the sqad.  A simple start would be for Bentley not to hoof it over the midfield every time he gets possession.  It has to be an instruction from the coaching staff.  You like your stats and it would be interesting to see the %  that we lose possession from that tactic alone.   I'm sure it would be an exceptionally high figure.  Football at its best is a simple game, and if you are asking one of the slowest players on the pitch (Martin) to chase a ball against much faster players then the outcome isn't hard to predict.   

As far as personnel is concerned ,I think all the players, with the exception of Weimann and the centre halves, are much better suited to a possession based game.   We do need a clinical finisher though and part of the problem is a lack of goals in the team from centre backs chipping in right the way through the team. We've not has a goal scoring midfielder for quite a while now.   It's an interesting exercise to add up the expected goals per player from all those playing and, unfortunately, it's not a high tally and is part of the problem.

So I am not saying a change of style would send us shooting up the league table without some goals added to the side which wouldn't be easy with the available budget, but if we are going to be in the wrong half we can at least start to play attractive football that would suit the abilities and development of the likes of Scott, Benarous, Massengo, Bakinson, Atkinson, Tanner, o'dowda, Pring etc. They should be allowed to play without fear as well as they are all good footballers and I don't think the way we play brings the best out of players and clearly it's not bringing the best in terms of results either.

Why is Bentley hoofing it?

You then add that our centre halves aren’t suited, well that answers the question above.  Without Williams we don’t really have a CM who can play 360 degrees either.

Again I’m not saying you’re wrong, but my challenge back would be:

worth going and watching Peterborough play a few games.  They play some lovely patterns.  They have 4 wins, 4 draws, 12 defeats, scored 4 less than us, conceded 7 more than us.

They play nice football because they commit their own defenders into passing patterns to create the extra man, that allows them to pass it.  But when they lose the ball their defence is a shambles.  They get punished.

That’s the price they paid for trying to play a nice passing game.  The match before us, they parked the bus against Bournemouth and got a 0-0.  Trying to play football against us and losing 3-2 or grinding out a 0-0 v AFCB.  Which way gives them a fighting chance of staying up?

I loved Cotts, but his stubbornness to play night flying centre backs and Freeman in the hole in a 3421 / 5212 cost is several games.  We got demolished 4-0 by Fulham at AG yet played some really good stuff.  That lovely stuff was because we committed an extra man to the attack, but we’re good enough to execute, and we got caught naively time after time.  I just think telling Ayling to stay back and moving Freeman into a more LCM role were the small tweaks that could e made a difference.

I genuinely think playing nice football at this point of the build will put us in more relegation danger than playing the direct stuff we are at the mo’.  Over time, absolutely, and today is not the best benchmark either.

[MattWSM]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Brownhill never really read the game and broke up play as per your requirements in your initial post.  We do miss Brownhill though.  Imagine him and a fit Williams with a peak-Pack.  That would be a v.good MF3.

Good post.

MRR, the good thing is that you debate, discuss, you respond to questions / challenges, pose the same back.  That’s OTIB at its best, even when coming from either side of the face.  At least we understand where each comes from.

I’m not happy with the combination of results and performances.  Nobody watching on Robinstv / red button shouted at the screen as much as me today.  I got told off by Mrs Fevs and mini-Mrs Fevs!!

I could easily sit here tonight and start a thread - Pearson Out, and come up with reasons why.  But I wouldn’t be being honest to myself, because I really think this is a mess…and I’m grateful he took the challenge.  He may not succeed, none of us knows.

I probably haven’t articulated this next thought very well in the past.  I started to allude to it over the break.  We have players who in the past may well have looked better because they were made to by others, or because they just created a great partnership?  Without some of those teammates, who’ve now moved on, they’re a bit exposed, it’s them having to step up to the plate, no security blanket in players x and y to save their bacon.

So our squad isn’t as strong as it might feel it is on paper.  It only looks fine, lower / mid-table when everyone is fit and available and in form.  As every little link breaks the chain becomes weaker.  We do have enough to stay in games and eke out results, but we will have games where we are exposed, like today.  United with Sande Berge £16m and Brewster £23m in their ranks, although it was freebie McGoldrick and Wolves loanee Gibbs-White who were the thorns in our side.

I think Nige / Gould have recognised that and will attempt to bring forward some of next summer’s transfer options, but I think it’s not gonna go down well with the fans…e.g. one or two Tanners and Atkinsons.

We have to hang in there.

I might be barking up the wrong tree but I sense Nige’s determination to succeed, almost a challenge to take a club like City and completely turn it around against a tough backdrop.  In some respects his reputation post-City doesn’t matter, I think this will be his last job.  I’m not sure some other managers would’ve accepted this job, even those bright young(er) things in lower leagues, who might worry about a Champ relegation on their CVs ending their careers.

Never dull is it?

Sorry I have to disagree about Brownhill, he had all round attributes, attacking and defensive, its mainly that type of player is what is missing in my opinion. An experienced midfield general but no I have no idea who that is but I am fairly sure we don't have that player in our squad. 1 good recruit in Jan will breathe confidence into this side, so we finish comfortably in the middle 3rd of the table.

Edited November 28, 2021 by MattWSM
typo

[bpexile]

30 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Why is Bentley hoofing it?

You then add that our centre halves aren’t suited, well that answers the question above.  Without Williams we don’t really have a CM who can play 360 degrees either.

Again I’m not saying you’re wrong, but my challenge back would be:

worth going and watching Peterborough play a few games.  They play some lovely patterns.  They have 4 wins, 4 draws, 12 defeats, scored 4 less than us, conceded 7 more than us.

They play nice football because they commit their own defenders into passing patterns to create the extra man, that allows them to pass it.  But when they lose the ball their defence is a shambles.  They get punished.

That’s the price they paid for trying to play a nice passing game.  The match before us, they parked the bus against Bournemouth and got a 0-0.  Trying to play football against us and losing 3-2 or grinding out a 0-0 v AFCB.  Which way gives them a fighting chance of staying up?

I loved Cotts, but his stubbornness to play night flying centre backs and Freeman in the hole in a 3421 / 5212 cost is several games.  We got demolished 4-0 by Fulham at AG yet played some really good stuff.  That lovely stuff was because we committed an extra man to the attack, but we’re good enough to execute, and we got caught naively time after time.  I just think telling Ayling to stay back and moving Freeman into a more LCM role were the small tweaks that could e made a difference.

I genuinely think playing nice football at this point of the build will put us in more relegation danger than playing the direct stuff we are at the mo’.  Over time, absolutely, and today is not the best benchmark either.

I always enjoy reading your rational posts Fevs, thankyou for keeping a level head before posting. It's a shame that many others can't accept the old saying that "Rome Wasn't Built in a Day".  It's old hat but so very very true & imo NP just has to be given the time & backing to succeed, then if he fails the inevitable will have to take place.

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, bpexile said:

I always enjoy reading your rational posts Fevs, thankyou for keeping a level head before posting. It's a shame that many others can't accept the old saying that "Rome Wasn't Built in a Day".  It's old hat but so very very true & imo NP just has to be given the time & backing to succeed, then if he fails the inevitable will have to take place.

I don’t get too excited when we win, I don’t get too down when we lose.

I was massively frustrated today, yet the game was salvageable.

Here are some things that agitated me today:

Either a sloppy run, or a delayed pass, a stupid yellow, then goal from their possession.

Then Gibbs-White should’ve got a second yellow.

In second half.  We had 3 chances in succession, Weimann break from Martin pass, eventually Bakinson shot. Then Wells fails to find Weimann who is clean-through.  Then O’Dowda almost gets a good cross deflected in for an og.

Then Bentley throws the ball away trying to break Semenyo….they score from the retained possession.  He should’ve learned when throwing one out to HNM earlier.

I’m not saying we deserved anything today, we didn’t, but we had chances to change the complexion of the game.

So Bristol City.

 

[bpexile]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t get too excited when we win, I don’t get too down when we lose.

I was massively frustrated today, yet the game was salvageable.

Here are some things that agitated me today:

Either a sloppy run, or a delayed pass, a stupid yellow, then goal from their possession.

Then Gibbs-White should’ve got a second yellow.

In second half.  We had 3 chances in succession, Weimann break from Martin pass, eventually Bakinson shot. Then Wells fails to find Weimann who is clean-through.  Then O’Dowda almost gets a good cross deflected in for an og.

Then Bentley throws the ball away trying to break Semenyo….they score from the retained possession.  He should’ve learned when throwing one out to HNM earlier.

I’m not saying we deserved anything today, we didn’t, but we had chances to change the complexion of the game.

So Bristol City.

 

Obviously some of the errors NP spoke about, very frustrating.

[firstdivision]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

My thoughts are that the first few months of the projects were actually planning the next few years.

If you look at things purely in terms of what happens on the pitch, you are missing a lot of other stuff going on.

Results aren’t great, performances are very mixed.

But he’s had one summer, one window, a period when he had to jettison a lot of the squad for no money, cut costs significantly whilst trying to get a team together capable of starting the build.  He has that when enough players are fit.

You can’t define a team / result / performance with a midfield of Bakinson, Massengo and Benarous.  As well we did in 2 games last week to get through it and take 4 points, it was always gonna be tough without any of King, James and Williams.  Could’ve easily been zero points, so let’s give a bit of credit for the week overall, even if today was a big disappointment.

I do think there is a huge lack of patience.

I think there is a huge over-reaction to individual results and performances.  We are at the phase of a rebuild where we will probably have our weakest squad and this phase will be out most inconsistent.  Some of that inconsistency is in the range of poor to average.  I don’t think we will see many games this season where you think City were top class, win comfortably.  It’s gonna be a hard watch.

But the objective is to slowly improve.  But that won’t be a straight line.

 

Serious question, Dave. Would you accept that rebuild continuing in League One? ie if that's what has got to happen, so be it.

[Waconda]

3 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

Serious question, Dave. Would you accept that rebuild continuing in League One? ie if that's what has got to happen, so be it.

There is absolutely no need for us to be relegated to rebuild.

If it did happen then I can't see the manager staying.

[Polly]

2 hours ago, billywedlock said:

You can see a clear change since the coaching changed . There are still poor decisions and lack of confidence . But that is another issue . As is the inability to keep the ball . But that needs different prayers . 
 

 

Bring back Basso?

[firstdivision]

3 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

I understand the need to rebuild and re-set . I knew that any improvement would not be linear given the depth of our squad and legacy issues.

I listen to NP's interviews and apart from the occasional almost spat-like sequence with an interviewer, I find him to talk more sense than several of his predecessors.

I made the point last season whilst he was caretaker that ,imo, he shouldn't be given the job until the very end of the season and I was definitely a minority voice. His record was W L L W D L L L D D L L L so 2 wins 3 draws and 9 losses. And a three year contract.

I don't think it could have got any worse so this season was always more likely to be an improvement This season he's played 23 matches and W7  D5 and L 11.  In the last 12 matches ( half the matches played) he has lost 7. This is where I have the problem about green shoots/improvement/right direction etc. I just dont see it when combined with performances which have been genuinely very poor and we've been incredibly fortunate not to have had a pasting from various teams courtesy of their bad finishing and not our resolute defending.

The record after over 8 months since Nige took over is Played 37 Lost 20 Drawn 8 and Won9 . If our performances showed that the players we have are giving their all for the shirt, team and Manager then I'd be less scathing. But the reality is that good moments of football are not in anything other than fleetingly brief periods and to my eyes  it's looking worse not better with relegation being a genuinely possible outcome. For this reason, I believe that unless there is an upturn in both points and performances then SL should cut his losses in December and bring in a new coach for the January window with the sole objective/brief to keep us in this division.

I think this is a reasoned argument albeit an unpopular one and not one that shrieks "Agenda" except to the many who perhaps dont have such a reasoned response as yourself. On that note thanks for you courteous, comprehensive and understandable reply.

This largely sums up my view as well. Some days, I think the solution is so obvious that it's not just staring us in the face, but whacking us over the head. I don't accept the premise that NP is somehow helpless against a Mark Ashton/Lee Johnson-inspired storm force ten. That's too fatalistic. 

A big part of management is problem solving. I don't see a huge amount of evidence that it's happening. I see a little, but not enough.

I get that we play hideous, safety-first football for a specific reason but I'd love to see a more agile, imaginative football mind in charge. Who? Good question. That's for others to decide. But there are plenty of people involved in the football world. Russell Martin was at MK Dons and someone took a chance of him. Barnsley didn't do too badly taking a punt on Valerien Ismael. Steve Cooper has helped revive Forest, wouldn't you know.

Even Hull have managed to win four games in a row. Can you imagine us doing that this season?

[Davefevs]

22 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

Serious question, Dave. Would you accept that rebuild continuing in League One? ie if that's what has got to happen, so be it.

No, that would be a disaster, because it’s absolutely avoidable.  You’d lose some of the players that are here that are key to that rebuild, so would a start from scratch….and if we went down I’m sure Nige wouldn’t remain here, so you just start with no plan again.  The risk being you get the plan wrong.

I think we got lucky that we had Keith Burt to “straddle” SOD and Cotts.  We had continuity.  We would lose all of that if we went down.

[firstdivision]

19 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

There is absolutely no need for us to be relegated to rebuild.

If it did happen then I can't see the manager staying.

Nor can I, but the point of my question - I suppose - is how far does Dave think 'the project' (which strikes me as an overblown concept - every club should have a project/plan all of the time if they have any self respect) should be allowed to continue before the plug is pulled.

[firstdivision]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

No, that would be a disaster, because it’s absolutely avoidable.  You’d lose some of the players that are here that are key to that rebuild, so would a start from scratch….and if we went down I’m sure Nige wouldn’t remain here, so you just start with no plan again.  The risk being you get the plan wrong.

I think we got lucky that we had Keith Burt to “straddle” SOD and Cotts.  We had continuity.  We would lose all of that if we went down.

So at what point this season would it be reasonable to pull the plug?

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

But there are plenty of people involved in the football world. Russell Martin was at MK Dons and someone took a chance of him. Barnsley didn't do too badly taking a punt on Valerien Ismael. Steve Cooper has helped revive Forest, wouldn't you know.

Good examples.

Some themes.

Martin went from a possession base team to a possession based team.

Ismael came from a gegenpress team to a high pressing Struber team and made them even higher pressing.  Early success at West Brom is fading though, not convinced the players want to keep haring around…last two times I’ve seen them they’ve been much more passive.

Cooper doing well, 1 defeat in 13, but 1 win 5 draws in last 6.  2 points above us.

[1960maaan]

57 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t get too down when we lose.

With this kind of performance, I do.  The Bournemouth/Forest/WBA really got me down, and it's not the defeats as such , but the performances or lack of.

Poor decisions, hesitation on passes, over hit or under hit simple passes, it's game in game out. We are not learning and definitely not improving. We look worse than the team I moaned about under Johnson. Those games where a really poor pass could set the tone for a bad half, this team doesn't keep the ball even that well during our good games. 
I will give them that injuries have again caused problems, made worse with a small squad in transition. Wiliam's, King and James could have made a difference , but that doesn't excuse the lack of movement and poor ball retention. The suicidal passing at the back and the lack of urgency to get back, all things that should have improved with coaching you would think.  
I would question Pearsons decisions too. Not having a midfielder on the bench but 2 left backs ? Palmer is obviously out of favour, but that looks beyond stubborn . Also playing the same team week in week out when we are chasing the ball for three quarters of the game isn't sustainable IMO.

I don't see us having the financial fire power to sort things by signings in January.  I'm not sure the fix is as easy as adding 2 decent Championship players if we could afford them. NP brought in 2 footballing MFs, and for a short period it did look like we were improving but that quickly went.  At the moment we are relying on scoring the odd chance get and hoping the opposition strikers have an off day (like Vs Stoke), that is not a recipe for success.

I have typed and deleted several posts today, you can probably see why now, bloody depressing . For the next week I may stick to discussing music on Twitter 

Edited November 28, 2021 by 1960maaan

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

So at what point this season would it be reasonable to pull the plug?

Hypothetically - when we are mathematically relegated.

 

[firstdivision]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Why is Bentley hoofing it?

You then add that our centre halves aren’t suited, well that answers the question above.  Without Williams we don’t really have a CM who can play 360 degrees either.

Again I’m not saying you’re wrong, but my challenge back would be:

worth going and watching Peterborough play a few games.  They play some lovely patterns.  They have 4 wins, 4 draws, 12 defeats, scored 4 less than us, conceded 7 more than us.

They play nice football because they commit their own defenders into passing patterns to create the extra man, that allows them to pass it.  But when they lose the ball their defence is a shambles.  They get punished.

That’s the price they paid for trying to play a nice passing game.  The match before us, they parked the bus against Bournemouth and got a 0-0.  Trying to play football against us and losing 3-2 or grinding out a 0-0 v AFCB.  Which way gives them a fighting chance of staying up?

I loved Cotts, but his stubbornness to play night flying centre backs and Freeman in the hole in a 3421 / 5212 cost is several games.  We got demolished 4-0 by Fulham at AG yet played some really good stuff.  That lovely stuff was because we committed an extra man to the attack, but we’re good enough to execute, and we got caught naively time after time.  I just think telling Ayling to stay back and moving Freeman into a more LCM role were the small tweaks that could e made a difference.

I genuinely think playing nice football at this point of the build will put us in more relegation danger than playing the direct stuff we are at the mo’.  Over time, absolutely, and today is not the best benchmark either.

This is a really good post, Dave. 

What fascinates me is this. When we looked at the team sheet today, most of us who have some idea thought 'mmm, look at that midfield: Massengo and Bakinson and Benarous - that's trouble.' So rather than just going with, 'oh we won on Wednesday night, let's do something similar' (with Massengo in for the injured Williams) can we be more imaginative? Problem solve. Can we do something different with the resources we have? 

No. We don't do that We play that midfield and it gets completely overrun. And this is not hindsight. I was having this discussion before the match. But basically we just said...let's give it a go and see what happens. I'm not saying it's easy. But what happened was what we all thought was going to happen. And it did. 

[firstdivision]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Hypothetically - when we are mathematically relegated.

 

Really, Dave? You only change once (if) we are down?  

[firstdivision]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Good examples.

Some themes.

Martin went from a possession base team to a possession based team.

Ismael came from a gegenpress team to a high pressing Struber team and made them even higher pressing.  Early success at West Brom is fading though, not convinced the players want to keep haring around…last two times I’ve seen them they’ve been much more passive.

Cooper doing well, 1 defeat in 13, but 1 win 5 draws in last 6.  2 points above us.

And, I suppose, to continue that theme, we replaced a manager who played dull, safety-first football with a man who plays dull, safety-first football. 

[Davefevs]

Just now, firstdivision said:

This is a really good post, Dave. 

What fascinates me is this. When we looked at the team sheet today, most of us who have some idea thought 'mmm, look at that midfield: Massengo and Bakinson and Benarous - that's trouble.' So rather than just going with, 'oh we won on Wednesday night, let's do something similar' (with Massengo in for the injured Williams) can we be more imaginative? Problem solve. Can we do something different with the resources we have? 

No. We don't do that We play that midfield and it gets completely overrun. And this is not hindsight. I was having this discussion before the match. But basically we just said...let's give it a go and see what happens. I'm not saying it's easy. But what happened was what we all thought was going to happen. And it did. 

I posted somewhere else about this.  Do you change the system because Williams is out or go with the same knowing that the players are at least familiar with our new 352?

Rock and a hard place scenario.

Could he have dropped Weimann into midfield to add some experience.  Does he leave Massengo on the bench (who might be thinking he’s gonna start and be really disappointed)?  Does he bring Massengo in and leave Be around out?

Could he have brought Atkinson in and shunted Vyner to RWB?

etc etc

Lots of options.

In our world of OTIB there are no comebacks to our decisions, no player relationships to manage the next day, etc.

I would say we made so many mistakes today I don’t think it mattered who played and in what formation.

Its why I don’t worry myself with things like “what’s his best eleven” because it rarely becomes an option.

[RobintheRed Red]

On 06/11/2021 at 18:06, S_C said:

Agree, it was always going to be a hard season, but there’s a difference between a hard season and the shambolic last 30 minutes in midweek or conceding 3 goals vs 10 men in one half.

I’m not calling for his head but it is increasingly hard to value the notion of transition above the embarrassment and humiliation that is being served up. We’re not losing, losing is one thing, we’re disorganised, weak minded and turning in inexcusable performances for which, transition or not, there is no justification.

Believing that he is the man to turn things around is increasingly tumbling toward blind faith. I say that not as someone demanding he goes, more as someone questioning why a group of players with ability, and I accept that’s my opinion and not universally shared, cannot be a structured, disciplined unit on a week to week basis.

There were real signs of promise earlier in the season, we looked like we’d found a team from the shipwreck of individuals last season. That optimism has all but evaporated. We’re on a downward spiral and it needs addressing.

He needs to ditch those two upfront ive seen more life in a bottle of Tizer

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

Really, Dave? You only change once (if) we are down?  

If we were to go down I can only imagine it being a late in season thing, e.g. gradually getting sucked closer and closer to the bottom three.  So I’d give Nige every chance to pull clear.

(easy sat here 7 points clear in 18th)

[Redrascal2]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

 

I struggle with the concept that the absence of 2 or 3 players can prevent the 11 selected from giving their best in a game. Also I think that the Manager has a role in motivating and organising the team and that just does not seem to be happening as I would have thought with a Manager of Pearson's experience.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, RobintheRed Red said:

He needs to ditch those two upfront ive seen more life in a bottle of Tizer

Before today they’d scored 12 and assisted 7 (19 games), they are far from the problem, imho.  Service to them is a bigger issue.

Having said that it would not surprise me to see Antoine start next week.  Might be Weimann back into midfield to add some experience if James not fit.

[RobintheRed Red]

On 06/11/2021 at 18:20, EstoniaTallinnRed said:

I honestly don't think his health is good and this pressure is doing him no good at all. I wouldn't be surprised if he left soon and although I not mad on Colin, I think he could save us this season. After all, he's done it with a few teams before.

Shite football but he would keep us up till end of season.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Redrascal2 said:

I struggle with the concept that the absence of 2 or 3 players can prevent the 11 selected from giving their best in a game. Also I think that the Manager has a role in motivating and organising the team and that just does not seem to be happening as I would have thought with a Manager of Pearson's experience.

I think there’s a difference between not giving their best, executing poorly and not being motivated for example.

Bad analogy coming up.  Do England cricket look as solid without Ben Stokes in the team?  You can bring in another all-rounder, but they aren’t Ben Stokes, they don’t make things happen with bat and / or ball.  If you take out one of your best players, you are weaker, whoever you bring in.  That’s means others have to step-up to fill the void.  I don’t think we have a lot who can step-up.

[1960maaan]

5 minutes ago, RobintheRed Red said:

He needs to ditch those two upfront ive seen more life in a bottle of Tizer

Feeding on scraps for the most part.

4 minutes ago, Redrascal2 said:

I struggle with the concept that the absence of 2 or 3 players can prevent the 11 selected from giving their best in a game. Also I think that the Manager has a role in motivating and organising the team and that just does not seem to be happening as I would have thought with a Manager of Pearson's experience.

Williams, King and James would add some steady influence and control, something that was lacking today. I agree the rest should be better, and THAT is a concern after 9 months with Nige.

[RobintheRed Red]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Before today they’d scored 12 and assisted 7 (19 games), they are far from the problem, imho.  Service to them is a bigger issue.

Having said that it would not surprise me to see Antoine start next week.  Might be Weimann back into midfield to add some experience if James not fit.

Dave they are dier we offer nothing upfront the only two chances we had was kallas Henderson and Wells when he should have squared it worst strikers in years id rather we had matty taylor and he was not championship standard thats how crap we are

[RobintheRed Red]

1 minute ago, RobintheRed Red said:

Dave they are dier we offer nothing upfront the only two chances we had was kallas and Wells when he should have squared it worst strikers in years id rather we had matty taylor and he was not championship standard thats how crap we are

 

[firstdivision]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I posted somewhere else about this.  Do you change the system because Williams is out or go with the same knowing that the players are at least familiar with our new 352?

Rock and a hard place scenario.

Could he have dropped Weimann into midfield to add some experience.  Does he leave Massengo on the bench (who might be thinking he’s gonna start and be really disappointed)?  Does he bring Massengo in and leave Be around out?

Could he have brought Atkinson in and shunted Vyner to RWB?

etc etc

Lots of options.

In our world of OTIB there are no comebacks to our decisions, no player relationships to manage the next day, etc.

I would say we made so many mistakes today I don’t think it mattered who played and in what formation.

Its why I don’t worry myself with things like “what’s his best eleven” because it rarely becomes an option.

All valid points, of course. But he's always made a thing of 'I'm the manager; I do it my way'. And, if he's adept, he can sell a revised game plan to the players. My thought was possibly Weimann in midfield because he has the nous to adapt. As I said, it's not easy but I wonder if someone more tactically flexible would have seen that coming and tried to head it off. 

[red colin]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Before today they’d scored 12 and assisted 7 (19 games), they are far from the problem, imho.  Service to them is a bigger issue.

Having said that it would not surprise me to see Antoine start next week.  Might be Weimann back into midfield to add some experience if James not fit.

Why don't we try not playing weimann..he plays every game season after season. I have never been convinced.  he runs yes. He is usually running in an offside position, he is almost always never in full control of the ball and for me the ONLY place he looks dangerous possibly cos he is never in control of the ball is straight down the middle.anywhere else he just fills a hole. Let's try without him for a few games. 

[Mattredrobin]

Don't think sacking Pearson will help, the players are simply just not good enough, granted I didn't see today's game but I've been to all home games and a few away and we are awful, I looked at our squad about 3-4 weeks ago, and looked at who we could get rid of 5 of the players I felt we wouldn't miss haven't even been playing so that can't be down to them, we are mentally weak and lack the quality to move forward, Pearson I feel is as honest as he can be ( and whilst I dislike outing players) he's just telling the truth like it or lump it, he knows we lack anything near good enough and I believe given time to move those players on he will improve us, but he needs to do it get those players out ASAP because unlike last time we got relegated we really won't find it easy if we do go down. 

Edited November 28, 2021 by Mattredrobin

[red colin]

4 minutes ago, red colin said:

Why don't we try not playing weimann..he plays every game season after season. I have never been convinced.  he runs yes. He is usually running in an offside position, he is almost always never in full control of the ball and for me the ONLY place he looks dangerous possibly cos he is never in control of the ball is straight down the middle.anywhere else he just fills a hole. Let's try without him for a few games. 

Adding to my own post...I would never fault Weimanns effort or commitment but for me he just doesn't work for us agree he scores around 12 a season but say play semenyo or Wells every game in same position would they add more with pace etc .

[Davefevs]

17 minutes ago, RobintheRed Red said:

Dave they are dier we offer nothing upfront the only two chances we had was kallas Henderson and Wells when he should have squared it worst strikers in years id rather we had matty taylor and he was not championship standard thats how crap we are

So are you meaning today or over the season?  Today was not the game to call out any individuals, virtually the whole team was under par.  Over the season both have had good and poor games.  As an overall season evaluation I think they’ve done ok.

Service is poor.  That doesn’t help.

Fine if you don’t rate them.  They are far from dire imho, but it’s all about opinions.

13 minutes ago, red colin said:

Why don't we try not playing weimann..he plays every game season after season. I have never been convinced.  he runs yes. He is usually running in an offside position, he is almost always never in full control of the ball and for me the ONLY place he looks dangerous possibly cos he is never in control of the ball is straight down the middle.anywhere else he just fills a hole. Let's try without him for a few games. 

That’s an option.  Ideally our front two wouldn’t be playing 90 mins every week.  Wells having looked sharp a month ago, looked out of touch, maybe through not playing?  Semenyo is back fit now.  We have some options.

[Taylor10]

Yes it’s frustrating at present but even by OTIB standards I feel there is a massive over reaction to today’s result/performance.

Sheff U are in a very false position and have way more quality than us. I expect them to be top 6 come the season end if they get some rhythm now. We were poor today but I’ve seen far worse displays this season against much weaker opposition. Whilst we’ve seen a very brief up turn in form we still have square pegs in round holes at present. 

We lined up with the same system as them today. At least half of the Sheff U side that started the game were part of a very successful prem campaign under Wilder. Ok you could argue that they came down in the end but if you compare the starting line ups today man for man, given we played the same formation/system then the difference in class was pretty obvious. Plus every player they had was playing in their specialist position, whereas that wasn’t the case for us. For example Scott & COD have worked hard the last few games but they are both out of position and today were arguably against two of the best wing backs in the division.

I honestly didn’t expect to get anything from today. That’s not to say I’m not fed up, underwhelmed or disappointed but a sense of realism is needed I feel. Not much to be positive about after today but certainly no need for over the top NP out calls based off that display today.

[big dosser]

makes i laugh on here, how the hell can people slate kp when he has not even crossed the white line.i would like to see kp get a good run of games like he did when benik was here.all fans like to blame players but a good solid coach should know how to get the best out of them, what makes them tick and get the passion and pride out of them. Like it or not we have no passion no pride, no commitment no structure no pace and worse of all we cant find a formation that can put us on the front foot. Are football is boring to watch and has been for a long time.im not sure what nige is like in a changing room but if its anything like his interviews im not surprised the players look half asleep and disinterested. I use his interviews to help me sleep/better than taking a sleeping tablet and natural

[Redrascal2]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I think there’s a difference between not giving their best, executing poorly and not being motivated for example.

Bad analogy coming up.  Do England cricket look as solid without Ben Stokes in the team?  You can bring in another all-rounder, but they aren’t Ben Stokes, they don’t make things happen with bat and / or ball.  If you take out one of your best players, you are weaker, whoever you bring in.  That’s means others have to step-up to fill the void.  I don’t think we have a lot who can step-up.

Yes agreed bad analogy. We cannot make Bakinson,  for example, a Joe Williams. But you should expect him to work hard and give all he has. A good example is George Tanner a full back from league 2 when he stepped in to the team he clearly was not a ready made Championship player but he gave you a whole hearted performance. He worked his socks off.I think it is reasonable to expect that from all 11 players who wear our shirt even if we lose the game. And I thought Pearson would provide that more regularly than he is.

[The Swan and Cemetery]

1 hour ago, RobintheRed Red said:

Dave they are dier we offer nothing upfront the only two chances we had was kallas Henderson and Wells when he should have squared it worst strikers in years id rather we had matty taylor and he was not championship standard thats how crap we are

They’re awful because they don’t create their own chances? 

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, Redrascal2 said:

Yes agreed bad analogy. We cannot make Bakinson,  for example, a Joe Williams. But you should expect him to work hard and give all he has. A good example is George Tanner a full back from league 2 when he stepped in to the team he clearly was not a ready made Championship player but he gave you a whole hearted performance. He worked his socks off.I think it is reasonable to expect that from all 11 players who wear our shirt even if we lose the game. And I thought Pearson would provide that more regularly than he is.

I don’t think Bakinson will ever look like he’s working hard…languid running style doesn’t help.

But I thought on Sat and Wed he did ok at his defensive stuff.  He’s not perfect.

Today was crap all round.  If I had to give marks for the starting eleven there wouldn’t have been many who got a 6/10 - my “earning their corn” score.

[fairweather]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t think Bakinson will ever look like he’s working hard…languid running style doesn’t help.

But I thought on Sat and Wed he did ok at his defensive stuff.  He’s not perfect.

Today was crap all round.  If I had to give marks for the starting eleven there wouldn’t have been many who got a 6/10 - my “earning their corn” score.

Dave- he was the most amazing Introduction under Holden. Held the ball, protected it but mostly moved it forward. Like a deep lying playmaker. I was so excited that the youth, I had known less about than other on here, would be blended with the rest of the team. 

Now the youth development and loan system has been dismantled and the young players are just part of a squad.

dark days.
 

 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

48 minutes ago, Taylor10 said:

Yes it’s frustrating at present but even by OTIB standards I feel there is a massive over reaction to today’s result/performance.

I honestly didn’t expect to get anything from today. That’s not to say I’m not fed up, underwhelmed or disappointed but a sense of realism is needed I feel. Not much to be positive about after today but certainly no need for over the top NP out calls based off that display today.

If it were purely about just today then this thread wouldn't exist. The reaction is entirely understandable based on performances this season and the seven losses in the last 12 games. A number of fans are getting nervous about the potential of relegation whilst not really seeing a clear way to safety so again it's not about this one result.

For my part I only starting watching City ( age related!) in 1980/81 so I've spent most of my life watching  "3rd Division" football and every fibre in my body is dreading the possible return to that wretched and depressing league where the only joy is winning it. Lincoln, Morecombe, Accrington Stanley and the obligatory 8 matches with Gillingham- no thanks.

 

[Bar BS3]

12 hours ago, billywedlock said:

I think we look better . Impressive that we are playing so many young players and building their experience . In 3/4 years you will see the benefits . I don’t recall Holden or LJ playing such a young midfield . You have to live through that development .  You can see a clear change since the coaching changed . There are still poor decisions and lack of confidence . But that is another issue . As is the inability to keep the ball . But that needs different prayers . 
 

so with the current squad what is your team ? So it’s not dross . Where are the players ? Who are you playing ?  It’s easy to say it’s rubbish , but far harder to come up with tangible real solutions within the constraints we have .

Time to be strong and bold . We are in transition but we will be far stronger as a squad and team if we stick with it . There are great signs within the frustration . 
 

seems to me some need a relegation for some to wake up to the reality of the car crash that was created by Ashton and LJ ( and Lansdown ) 

So you think that NP is doing a reasonable job in getting the best out of the recourses that he has at his disposal..? 

You think we look organised & have a game plan...? 

Not being good enough is one think - looking like a clueless shambles, more often than not, is another. 

[SecretSam]

On 06/11/2021 at 17:10, old_eastender said:

I really do wonder whether we can trust NP to turn this around. Mark Robins was once in the running for us, oh to see the style of pass and move football that Coventry produced with only 10 men.

And this possible appointment was derided by many on here as being unambitious and dull. 

Personally, I don't see the value in dumping Pearson now. Where are the better options out there?

[Bodiesaffer]

4 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

And this possible appointment was derided by many on here as being unambitious and dull. 

Personally, I don't see the value in dumping Pearson now. Where are the better options out there?

Mark Robins has turned out to be a very good coach.  Was he ever in the running, or just speculation? 

I’m not sure he would of took on such a big project. Yes he got Coventry to the Championship. But he’s walked out on clubs in his career and once before rejoining the sky blues. That’s a Risk knowing the owner. 
Nigel has a reputation of building foundations like he did at The Foxes.  Can he do the same here? Sir Alex had a difficult start at Man U and was one game away from being sacked if it wasn’t for Robins goal against Forest, I believe.

Yes we are at rock bottom playing poor football, sometimes even school boy football.  That’s not down to NP at the moment, that’s down what’s happen in the past.  It’s a ground up rebuild. We need more experience within the starting 11 fact. Once we have that we will start to climb the league.  If SL pulls the trigger now we will be never get off the merry go round IMO.
 We are having moments in games where we have had chances to score and should have. That’s an improvement.

 

 

[RobintheRed Red]

9 hours ago, The Swan and Cemetery said:

They’re awful because they don’t create their own chances? 

Admittedly not much creating with no wingers or fullbacks good enough to get forward but hardly any movement upfront or lack of interest.

Edited November 29, 2021 by RobintheRed Red

[RobintheRed Red]

Just now, RobintheRed Red said:

Admittedly not much creation with no wingers or fullbacks good enough to get forward but hardly any movement upfront or lack of interest.

 

[Taylor10]

8 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

If it were purely about just today then this thread wouldn't exist. The reaction is entirely understandable based on performances this season and the seven losses in the last 12 games. A number of fans are getting nervous about the potential of relegation whilst not really seeing a clear way to safety so again it's not about this one result.

For my part I only starting watching City ( age related!) in 1980/81 so I've spent most of my life watching  "3rd Division" football and every fibre in my body is dreading the possible return to that wretched and depressing league where the only joy is winning it. Lincoln, Morecombe, Accrington Stanley and the obligatory 8 matches with Gillingham- no thanks.

 

I too am very concerned and I think everyone is within their rights to question our current plight and manager. I don’t dispute that.
 

My point was really about those that seem genuinely shocked we got outplayed by Sheff U yesterday and seem to have used that argument to peddle NP out calls off the back of us not being able to compete with a side with a similar record/league position. To me it’s pretty obvious they are in a false position and are far superior all over the pitch. We also had a very depleted side.
 

Right to question NP overall? Absolutely, but the posts I’ve seen/pods I’ve listened to have had sections almost trying to use yesterday’s defeat as the final nail type scenario. As if to say ‘oh NP can’t get a tune out of our injury ravaged side against an ex prem side with a similar record to us’ or ‘if we can’t beat Sheff U we are bang in trouble’ which to me is an over reaction if it’s based off yesterday alone. Looking at the bigger picture I share your concerns but yesterday we were well beaten by a better side.

[1960maaan]

6 minutes ago, Bodiesaffer said:

Yes we are at rock bottom playing poor football, sometimes even school boy football.  That’s not down to NP at the moment, that’s down what’s happen in the past.  It’s a ground up rebuild. We need more experience within the starting 11

Pearson has been here for what, 9 months ? When we had King & James in the starting XI we may have looked marginally better, but results were not. 
I don't see why Pearson should get a free pass, he picks the team, sets the shape and style . It may be a big, big ground up rebuild, but you still have to focus on the first team. Relegation would set us back years, with no guarantee we would bounce back. 

If we could get James, King and Williams back and keep them fit, I would hope things could improve. Sadly we can't be sure how soon that might happen, and you can't be certain that it would make the difference we hope it will.

 

[Bodiesaffer]

13 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

Pearson has been here for what, 9 months ? When we had King & James in the starting XI we may have looked marginally better, but results were not. 
I don't see why Pearson should get a free pass, he picks the team, sets the shape and style . It may be a big, big ground up rebuild, but you still have to focus on the first team. Relegation would set us back years, with no guarantee we would bounce back. 

If we could get James, King and Williams back and keep them fit, I would hope things could improve. Sadly we can't be sure how soon that might happen, and you can't be certain that it would make the difference we hope it will.

 

We know they will improve the situation we’ve all seen this for our very own eyes. Yes we need them fit, and we need others to step back on the bus.  We have no choice in giving him a free pass this season, we haven’t got the funds. We need to trust it’s improving behind the scenes 1st then hopefully we will see this improve on the pitch.  Frustrating as it is for us all it is what it is.  A total shambles from past mistakes now coming to affect. 
 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Bodiesaffer

[Capman]

OTIB really has become so absurd. Last Wednesday people were going on about the play offs now they want everyone fired. We must have lost a game. 
 

I don’t see what changing managers does at this stage. Pearson seems to me to be clear in his strategy. He wants a much smaller squad of players who are going to create a promotion winning team. It will take him 3 years to do that and this is year one. 

Loads of players went last summer, more will go next year. Then Pearson should have the space to bring in another few players he wants to build the team he believes will be successful. 

Yes we could change now but all that does is bring in a new management team with a different three year plan and we are back at a square one which may, or may not work. 
 

I have no idea why people do not get that to change the entire football strategy was always going to take time. By this time next season we will have a much better idea on how successful the Pearson approach will be. 
 

 

[Southport Red]

11 hours ago, red colin said:

Why don't we try not playing weimann..he plays every game season after season. I have never been convinced.  he runs yes. He is usually running in an offside position, he is almost always never in full control of the ball and for me the ONLY place he looks dangerous possibly cos he is never in control of the ball is straight down the middle.anywhere else he just fills a hole. Let's try without him for a few games. 

Trouble is, a) Do you drop your top scorer? And b) When Wiemann was injured last year we were palpably worse and even more threat less. IMHO our prob Le, (possibly since Hartley left) is that our midfield is weak. For years now defenders have been lumping long, aimless balls to the front, totally by passing the midfield. 

[bcfcnick]

15 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Why is Bentley hoofing it? ...

I genuinely think playing nice football at this point of the build will put us in more relegation danger than playing the direct stuff we are at the mo’.  Over time, absolutely, and today is not the best benchmark either.

Hoofing? I guess, Dave, that's my lazy shorthand shorthand for 'precision placed kicks to the opposition in the final third'  Agreed, Bentley doesn't hoof or rarely slices Fielding style. The result is still the same though - the opposition take possession and that's the point. 

I also don't think it's coincidence that the very rare times we have played decent passing football we have had better results.  That applies to all recent managers.  I remember we played some really attractive football in one game (yes just the one!) when the players were prepared by Simpson and Downing after Pearson was appointed but he was just observing rather than setting up the team.  I also believe we resort to the 'clear the lines' style you are advocating even more in the latter phases of games when we have been in front and are desperately clinging on.  Again, it's no coincidence we are more prone to concede. 

I just don't think passing to the opposition is a good tactic or makes for good viewing.  I could see your point about playing functional just to survive in the Championship if we had a team of Warnock-style lumps.  But we don't, the reality is quite the opposite.  

[Dottie]

13 hours ago, Taylor10 said:

Yes it’s frustrating at present but even by OTIB standards I feel there is a massive over reaction to today’s result/performance.

Sheff U are in a very false position and have way more quality than us. I expect them to be top 6 come the season end if they get some rhythm now. We were poor today but I’ve seen far worse displays this season against much weaker opposition. Whilst we’ve seen a very brief up turn in form we still have square pegs in round holes at present. 

We lined up with the same system as them today. At least half of the Sheff U side that started the game were part of a very successful prem campaign under Wilder. Ok you could argue that they came down in the end but if you compare the starting line ups today man for man, given we played the same formation/system then the difference in class was pretty obvious. Plus every player they had was playing in their specialist position, whereas that wasn’t the case for us. For example Scott & COD have worked hard the last few games but they are both out of position and today were arguably against two of the best wing backs in the division.

I honestly didn’t expect to get anything from today. That’s not to say I’m not fed up, underwhelmed or disappointed but a sense of realism is needed I feel. Not much to be positive about after today but certainly no need for over the top NP out calls based off that display today.

Spot on. 

[Johnny Musicworks]

The biggest problem we have at the moment is the lack of experience in all parts of the field. Having now lost Baker, James, King and Williams we only really have Kalas and the front 2 to add any real Championship experience. I don’t count Bentley for the most part as he is too isolated being in goal, Callum who doesn’t seem to have the wherewithal to dictate play or Jay who is out of sorts. Therefore I think taking out either of the front two would weaken us even further. Weimann could move into Scott’s position and then bring in Wells or Semenyo but options are limited.

[Redandproud]

6 hours ago, Capman said:

OTIB really has become so absurd. Last Wednesday people were going on about the play offs now they want everyone fired. We must have lost a game. 
 

I don’t see what changing managers does at this stage. Pearson seems to me to be clear in his strategy. He wants a much smaller squad of players who are going to create a promotion winning team. It will take him 3 years to do that and this is year one. 

Loads of players went last summer, more will go next year. Then Pearson should have the space to bring in another few players he wants to build the team he believes will be successful. 

Yes we could change now but all that does is bring in a new management team with a different three year plan and we are back at a square one which may, or may not work. 
 

I have no idea why people do not get that to change the entire football strategy was always going to take time. By this time next season we will have a much better idea on how successful the Pearson approach will be. 
 

 

I don't remember reading about supporters saying anything about play-offs  after Wednesdays game, but I do remember reading how far we are away from the  bottom three, 

[Ivorguy]

If some of the players have not bought in to NP’s ethos, and if SL is unwilling to invest in a meaningful way in January, then you may sadly get your wish for if I was NP I would walk away from a job that was undoable.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Redandproud said:

I don't remember reading about supporters saying anything about play-offs  after Wednesdays game, but I do remember reading how far we are away from the  bottom three, 

Think it was the sky tv interviewer who raised the question of playoff and Nige put him in his place.  I think people picked up on that, not that we were playoff material itself.

[Redandproud]

16 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Think it was the sky tv interviewer who raised the question of playoff and Nige put him in his place.  I think people picked up on that, not that we were playoff material itself.

We'll be lucky to escape relegation this season, 

[Waconda]

22 hours ago, bcfcnick said:

Hoofing? I guess, Dave, that's my lazy shorthand shorthand for 'precision placed kicks to the opposition in the final third'  Agreed, Bentley doesn't hoof or rarely slices Fielding style. The result is still the same though - the opposition take possession and that's the point. 

I also don't think it's coincidence that the very rare times we have played decent passing football we have had better results.  That applies to all recent managers.  I remember we played some really attractive football in one game (yes just the one!) when the players were prepared by Simpson and Downing after Pearson was appointed but he was just observing rather than setting up the team.  I also believe we resort to the 'clear the lines' style you are advocating even more in the latter phases of games when we have been in front and are desperately clinging on.  Again, it's no coincidence we are more prone to concede. 

I just don't think passing to the opposition is a good tactic or makes for good viewing.  I could see your point about playing functional just to survive in the Championship if we had a team of Warnock-style lumps.  But we don't, the reality is quite the opposite.  

Fielding was ordered to kick it into or very close to touch - It was a tactic, either a flick on or the opposition gets a throw inside their half for us to win the ball back high.

Other teams do the same.

Edited November 30, 2021 by VT05763

[Waconda]

18 hours ago, Ivorguy said:

If some of the players have not bought in to NP’s ethos, and if SL is unwilling to invest in a meaningful way in January, then you may sadly get your wish for if I was NP I would walk away from a job that was undoable.

This scenario is possible in my view. Once it (if) moves on from "some" to "several" players it's over.

Still time to turn it around and Blackburn was definitely a positive, both on the pitch and in the dug out. 

Proving that it CAN be done and the players ARE coachable/capable.

How much Fleming was in charge pre Blackburn would be interesting to know.

Edited November 30, 2021 by VT05763

[mozo]

On 28/11/2021 at 16:54, Davefevs said:

My thoughts are that the first few months of the projects were actually planning the next few years.

If you look at things purely in terms of what happens on the pitch, you are missing a lot of other stuff going on.

Results aren’t great, performances are very mixed.

But he’s had one summer, one window, a period when he had to jettison a lot of the squad for no money, cut costs significantly whilst trying to get a team together capable of starting the build.  He has that when enough players are fit.

You can’t define a team / result / performance with a midfield of Bakinson, Massengo and Benarous.  As well we did in 2 games last week to get through it and take 4 points, it was always gonna be tough without any of King, James and Williams.  Could’ve easily been zero points, so let’s give a bit of credit for the week overall, even if today was a big disappointment.

I do think there is a huge lack of patience.

I think there is a huge over-reaction to individual results and performances.  We are at the phase of a rebuild where we will probably have our weakest squad and this phase will be out most inconsistent.  Some of that inconsistency is in the range of poor to average.  I don’t think we will see many games this season where you think City were top class, win comfortably.  It’s gonna be a hard watch.

But the objective is to slowly improve.  But that won’t be a straight line.

 

Exactly my thoughts Dave. A random question for you... you've said on here a few times that fans are naive to think that attacking formations or throwing on attacking players is the way to be a more attacking team. Interestingly, this is Nige's strategy for the last 15 minutes of any game we're losing. When he does his kitchen sink strategy do you wince and think, 'subtlety Nige!', or do you think that's the correct way to turn a game around.

[Daniel James]

With Lansdown we will be never be anything more than a championship / league 1 team. The bloke is more happy with making small profits than having a successful team only for so long can u sell the best players and replace with mediocre ones and expect to stay in the championship

[Davefevs]

34 minutes ago, mozo said:

Exactly my thoughts Dave. A random question for you... you've said on here a few times that fans are naive to think that attacking formations or throwing on attacking players is the way to be a more attacking team. Interestingly, this is Nige's strategy for the last 15 minutes of any game we're losing. When he does his kitchen sink strategy do you wince and think, 'subtlety Nige!', or do you think that's the correct way to turn a game around.

What I have most definitely stated is:

- one up top is not more defensive than two up top or vice versa

- 5 at the back is not more defensive than 4 at the back or vice versa

which is what bugs me when I hear people go on BBCRB and say “how can we expect to have more than 1 shot on target at home when we only play one striker”, or “it’s too defensive to play a back five at home”, etc.

I’d most definitely argue a 451 with Martin up top and O’Dowda, Semenyo on the flanks, with Benarous, Scott and James is pretty attacking….yet only one striker.

460 was pretty good with neither Pato and Reid playing as out and out strikers.  It’s all about making it cohesive.

On Sunday, what he didn’t do was bring on Wells, Semenyo and just play them with his original pair of Weimann and Martin as a 4 across the front line.  He did switch to a 343, with Weimann going to RWB, Scott into midfield with the 3 others up top.

I don’t have an issue with kitchen-sink either….I didn’t criticise Holden v Swansea (a) in his caretaker spell, when if Fam has scored his spot-kick, we’d have taken a point.  That felt like a 1-2-7 for action!  Last 10 mins of a game, why not?  Especially if the current tactic is bearing no fruit.  On other occasions, it is working, but you need patience, the chance will come.  I criticised LJ for moving Flint up front v Wolves.  Most people criticised him for not moving him back after we scored.  For me, I was happy to grind and grind all game against their 10 men, knackering them and knackering them.  If we got the goal great, but don’t lose from 0-0.  I think if we’d have stayed in shape, we’d have made them chase us and tire themselves out.  But by doing what he did with Flint, he created an open game.