Desire / Determination - Fleming post-match

[Davefevs]

This is a guy who’s playing career was all about grit and determination.  As a team we are not prepared to work hard enough to do the hard yards together, imho.

I think he’s right when he says it’s not about tactics and formations second half per se, it’s about desire.  Too many players strolling at times, only running hard when it suited them.  Players probably thought 1-0up, against 10 men, job done.  Then Cov have a go, and get on top.

I don’t know what the answer is.

If as a couple of posters they they think the manager / coaches is the reason, then where’s their professional pride?  Where was it with Holden?

I think it’s too easy to blame the manager….nor am I saying he is blameless either….but we love to pinpoint one or two people.  

[Waconda]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

This is a guy who’s playing career was all about grit and determination.  As a team we are not prepared to work hard enough to do the hard yards together, imho.

I think he’s right when he says it’s not about tactics and formations second half per se, it’s about desire.  Too many players strolling at times, only running hard when it suited them.  Players probably thought 1-0up, against 10 men, job done.  Then Cov have a go, and get on top.

I don’t know what the answer is.

If as a couple of posters they they think the manager / coaches is the reason, then where’s their professional pride?  Where was it with Holden?

I think it’s too easy to blame the manager….nor am I saying he is blameless either….but we love to pinpoint one or two people.  

It is the Manager and coaching staffs job to prepare, organise, enthuse and motivate the team. If they are claiming there is nothing they can do then either change the players you are talking about or accept you have failed and move over for someone else to have a go.

Players don't give up on Managers they have belief and confidence in.

[petehinton]

He told them to shut up shop at HT against 10 men???!!!

[Numero Uno]

Just now, VT05763 said:

It is the Manager and coaching staffs job to prepare, organise, enthuse and motivate the team. If they are claiming there is nothing they can do then either change the players you are talking about or accept you have failed and move over for someone else to have a go.

Players don't give up on Managers they have belief and confidence in.

Have you played at any sort of level at all? Seriously, did you rely on the Manager and Coaching Staff to motivate you? Didn't you have any self motivation and enthusiasm for the game? Honestly?

[LondonBristolian]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

This is a guy who’s playing career was all about grit and determination.  As a team we are not prepared to work hard enough to do the hard yards together, imho.

I think he’s right when he says it’s not about tactics and formations second half per se, it’s about desire.  Too many players strolling at times, only running hard when it suited them.  Players probably thought 1-0up, against 10 men, job done.  Then Cov have a go, and get on top.

I don’t know what the answer is.

If as a couple of posters they they think the manager / coaches is the reason, then where’s their professional pride?  Where was it with Holden?

I think it’s too easy to blame the manager….nor am I saying he is blameless either….but we love to pinpoint one or two people.  

Being honest, I think we are struggling with the dual impact of a squad that is not good enough and managerial team that are very clear that the squad is not good enough. We have a team of poor players and a lack of balance but also a team that clearly know the manager does not rate them and probably suspect he is right not to rate them. Quality is poor and confidence is shot. Such a dangerous combination.

Edited November 6, 2021 by LondonBristolian

[GrahamC]

Just now, petehinton said:

He told them to shut up shop at HT against 10 men???!!!

I think probably what was said was we are 1 up & they are a man down, limit their chances.

Whatever it was, it didn’t work.

Whether you think that is down to Fleming or the players (or both) is up to you.

I cannot fathom why we are so defensively poor as a unit, how a man gets free in the 92nd minute when we have an extra player, I just don’t understand.

[The Swan and Cemetery]

1 minute ago, Numero Uno said:

Have you played at any sort of level at all? Seriously, did you rely on the Manager and Coaching Staff to motivate you? Didn't you have any self motivation and enthusiasm for the game? Honestly?

Couldn’t agree more - tactics, set up and so on, fair enough to call out manager and coaching team. But desire/effort, if someone needs someone else to do that for them, when they’re earning potloads compared to the average person, there’s something badly wrong with them. Have some pride. Care about doing your best for the supporters travelling and paying their hard earned cash. 

[REDOXO]

At HT I said to Mrs Oxo, we are one nil up and playing ten men. ONLY WE COULD MESS THIS UP!

And it came to pass! I tweeted Twentyman 'I feel sick' at the final whistle, then I tweeeted it to Jon Lansdown...

This season has been one kick in the guts after another. Personally I think Pearson has taken on Ashton, Holden's LJs SLs and JL's poison chalice and he knew it. Our injuries are mounting up again, we are putting our hopes in players across the club who seem helpless and hapless who can not run, shoot, pass, tackle or have any basic technical ability!

After that and the meaningless post match presser I'm glad I have two weeks off!

 

[The Original OTIB]

More to the point, why are players not doing post match interviews? They need to own this situation as well.

[samo II]

We’ve pinned ourselves into a corner with a small squad, so I understand we don’t have much latitude when it comes to changing personnel too much.

But personally; if the coaches are finding a lack of desire and drive in players, they need to start reflecting that as far as possible in team selection.

I fully understand the argument of over-exposing young players to adult football, and they don’t want to ruin anyone by throwing them into the fire, but honestly; at this stage, I’d be promoting and trying out youth players instead of several of the senior pros.

At the very, very least you would bring a bit of energy to the side, and if those kids are decent - great - but even if not, they might at least start giving the senior pros food for thought.

I personally don’t think sacking the manager is going to do much; these players have effectively seen off three gaffers now, so it isn’t all on NP.

But that being the case; deal with the root cause - if a few games in the stands focuses the minds of some while they watch kids battle for their spot, would that be so bad?

I’m not sure it could be worse.

[bexhill reds]

4 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

It is the Manager and coaching staffs job to prepare, organise, enthuse and motivate the team. If they are claiming there is nothing they can do then either change the players you are talking about or accept you have failed and move over for someone else to have a go.

Players don't give up on Managers they have belief and confidence in.

Arguably 3 managers have been and gone with the players on the pitch today bar one, you have to question the attitude of those paid to kick the football if they can’t raise their game sufficiently for anyone of those 3.

Not saying the management is without fault, but clearly there is something not right on the playing side, perhaps they all need to get pissed, have it out and then have a ******* good punch up, then have another go, sometimes that sorts the problems out on the shop floor.

[Ostrich]

Bit of a cop out that imo. I looked on my phone after about 25 mins and the pass completion was 52% so I'm not sure how he can be happy with the first half, I took the piss out of Rotherham last year when you played them because at half time they had a 48% pass completion. 52% in the first 25 minutes is diabolical. That's either a case of players playing at a standard far above what they should be (clearly not, these aren't conference level players) or the structure and shape make it difficult to make the passes and play through, or it's tactical but even then I don't think even Warnock or Big Sam or Pulis would take that. 

I think there's an element of what he says though, nobody really bust a gut when it mattered, there wasn't enough aggression, there was a real lack of concentration (the penalty is some of the worst defending you'll see all week especially given the time and situation). But even then Weimann is a player you might not apply the lack of desire and poor attitude too but he's running around pointlessly half of the time which is a coaching thing, Massengo looked under-coached too (he was awful, I was impressed with him against QPR but today I was really disappointed, even the basics weren't there).

They don't even have to be bad players or players that aren't arsed but once you get a group of players in a long-term rut, it's easy for them to just go through the motions and the atmosphere never recovers. You could pick them off individually and they might look decent elsewhere, there's clearly a group problem that needs smashing through whoever is manager going forward. 

[bexhill reds]

1 minute ago, samo II said:

We’ve pinned ourselves into a corner with a small squad, so I understand we don’t have much latitude when it comes to changing personnel too much.

But personally; if the coaches are finding a lack of desire and drive in players, they need to start reflecting that as far as possible in team selection.

I fully understand the argument of over-exposing young players to adult football, and they don’t want to ruin anyone by throwing them into the fire, but honestly; at this stage, I’d be promoting and trying out youth players instead of several of the senior pros.

At the very, very least you would bring a bit of energy to the side, and if those kids are decent - great - but even if not, they might at least start giving the senior pros food for thought.

I personally don’t think sacking the manager is going to do much; these players have effectively seen off three gaffers now, so it isn’t all on NP.

But that being the case; deal with the root cause - if a few games in the stands focuses the minds of some while they watch kids battle for their spot, would that be so bad?

I’m not sure it could be worse.

I think we’re entering a zone where playing our talented kids might not do them any favours, certainly not in the long term. You need to nurture and not stick them in a bear pit, especially at home with an exceptionally pissed off home crowd.

[redsquirrel]

a fair few of cotts team went into town together on a saturday night together and more than likely had a good night out as mates.  think this could be a lot of our problems,plus half of them would be under the table by 9 oclock they are so lightweight

[samo II]

Just now, bexhill reds said:

I think we’re entering a zone where playing our talented kids might not do them any favours, certainly not in the long term. You need to nurture and not stick them in a bear pit, especially at home with an exceptionally pissed off home crowd.

Fair.

Though honestly; rooting for young lads trying their best beats watching these guys right now.

Ultimately, I don’t have an answer, but something needs to change.

[LondonBristolian]

11 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Have you played at any sort of level at all? Seriously, did you rely on the Manager and Coaching Staff to motivate you? Didn't you have any self motivation and enthusiasm for the game? Honestly?

I think that is a bit of a false argument. I think most of us - whatever our career - can recognise the difference in how we perform when we are comfortable and confident in what we are doing and feel trusted to do that  and how we perform when we are scared our boss is going to haul us over the coals for any mistake we make. 
 

Footballers are humans - not some weird alien species where basic rules of human psychology no longer apply.

[redsquirrel]

2 minutes ago, Ostrich said:

Bit of a cop out that imo. I looked on my phone after about 25 mins and the pass completion was 52% so I'm not sure how he can be happy with the first half, I took the piss out of Rotherham last year when you played them because at half time they had a 48% pass completion. 52% in the first 25 minutes is diabolical. That's either a case of players playing at a standard far above what they should be (clearly not, these aren't conference level players) or the structure and shape make it difficult to make the passes and play through, or it's tactical but even then I don't think even Warnock or Big Sam or Pulis would take that. 

I think there's an element of what he says though, nobody really bust a gut when it mattered, there wasn't enough aggression, there was a real lack of concentration (the penalty is some of the worst defending you'll see all week especially given the time and situation). But even then Weimann is a player you might not apply the lack of desire and poor attitude too but he's running around pointlessly half of the time which is a coaching thing, Massengo looked under-coached too (he was awful, I was impressed with him against QPR but today I was really disappointed, even the basics weren't there).

They don't even have to be bad players or players that aren't arsed but once you get a group of players in a long-term rut, it's easy for them to just go through the motions and the atmosphere never recovers. You could pick them off individually and they might look decent elsewhere, there's clearly a group problem that needs smashing through whoever is manager going forward. 

too true,sudbury were trying much harder to defend last night,even at 3-0 down

[Numero Uno]

Just now, JonDolman said:

The depressing thing is I think they worked their socks off and were desperate to win that game. I wish it was just not having desire!

Not knowing what they're doing at times? Most certainly.

Can't defend, can't pass the ball. It's no different to a lot of games this season.

It's no good "working your socks off" if you don't carry out the instructions you were given and/or lose concentration/switch off when it really matters. Vyner made a bad decision and that's 1-1, Kalas, Bentley and AN Other lose concentration and that's 2-2. Massengo then switches off and they got their winner. Why is he switching off? If he wants to be a top player and play in the Premiership he can't switch off for a second - that is where real "desire" comes in. Working very hard and coming off with 12km on your vest does not mean you have the desire to concentrate fully, to be focused and switched on to both expect and notice the runner so you can make that twenty yard run and avoid that one moment at the end that costs the result. Fleming summed it up "do your jobs" - making sure you do your job properly for 90 minutes is focus and desire, running round like a headless chicken with 12km on your vest but forgetting to do important jobs isn't.

[BanburyRed]

18 minutes ago, petehinton said:

He told them to shut up shop at HT against 10 men???!!!

You've stolen my response, staggering comment to make.....

[054123]

16 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Being honest, I think we are struggling with the dual impact of a squad that is not good enough and managerial team that are very clear that the squad is not good enough. We have a team of poor players and a lack of balance but also a team that clearly know the manager does not rate them and probably suspect he is right not to rate them. Quality is poor and confidence is shot. Such a dangerous combination.

Good post

[HappyClapper]

Lots of understandable anger and disappointment on Otib tonight. I know I’m in the  Pearson in camp, but I honestly don’t think you can put today down to the coaching team. We were 1-0 up against 10 men. To lose the second half 3-1 is embarrassing, and the first place to look is the players. Anyone who’s ever played the game has played against 10 men and understand the need to control possession and move them around and hopefully make gaps and tire the opponents. This has nothing to do with coaching but grit, determination and professional pride. To concede 3 goals against 10 men is an absolute joke. These are the same players that collapsed after the Covid break. Capitulated last season and are looking like doing it again. They have shown the same weak mentality and a lack of passion for the shirt under 3 different managers. I really don’t think that yet another manager will make any difference.

In his pre match press conference NP called on the squad to roll their sleeves up and show some grit and determination At half time it looked like tactically things were working and we had a 1-0 lead against 10 men. Then a collapse…

I think there are plenty of senior players who should be looking hard in the mirror over the international break and deciding if they have the cojones to get us out of this mess.

I won’t be holding my breath.

Best case senario, we manage to stay up and clear out the playing squad ASAP.

[stephenkibby.]

6 minutes ago, bexhill reds said:

I think we’re entering a zone where playing our talented kids might not do them any favours, certainly not in the long term. You need to nurture and not stick them in a bear pit, especially at home with an exceptionally pissed off home crowd.

But what is the answer ? playing the same players making the same mistakes week in week out is surly going to get us relagated.

[Numero Uno]

2 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think that is a bit of a false argument. I think most of us - whatever our career - can recognise the difference in how we perform when we are comfortable and confident in what we are doing and feel trusted to do that  and how we perform when we are scared our boss is going to haul us over the coals for any mistake we make. 
 

Footballers are humans - not some weird alien species where basic rules of human psychology no longer apply.

You are talking about confidence not motivation. Professional footballers really shouldn't need much in the way of motivation put into them. Too many people make excuses for players and pin everything on Managers. The individual mistakes we saw today are on the players, nobody else.

Footballers are a weird species in that many of them take £20K per week out of their Employer and then hide behind the Manager when they fail to do what they have been asked to do.

[sticks 1969]

6 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think that is a bit of a false argument. I think most of us - whatever our career - can recognise the difference in how we perform when we are comfortable and confident in what we are doing and feel trusted to do that  and how we perform when we are scared our boss is going to haul us over the coals for any mistake we make. 
 

Footballers are humans - not some weird alien species where basic rules of human psychology no longer apply.

Very very very true 

 

[Will Rollason]

That's the fourth time in seventeen league games that we've conceded after 90 mins.

Seems like more tbh

[Red white and red]

15 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

At HT I said to Mrs Oxo, we are one nil up and playing ten men. ONLY WE COULD MESS THIS UP!

And it came to pass! I tweeted Twentyman 'I feel sick' at the final whistle, then I tweeeted it to Jon Lansdown...

This season has been one kick in the guts after another. Personally I think Pearson has taken on Ashton, Holden's LJs SLs and JL's poison chalice and he knew it. Our injuries are mounting up again, we are putting our hopes in players across the club who seem helpless and hapless who can not run, shoot, pass, tackle or have any basic technical ability!

After that and the meaningless post match presser I'm glad I have two weeks off!

 

Why? Like he would even be remotely bothered about another implosion.

[milo1111]

19 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Being honest, I think we are struggling with the dual impact of a squad that is not good enough and managerial team that are very clear that the squad is not good enough. We have a team of poor players and a lack of balance but also a team that clearly know the manager does not rate them and probably suspect he is right not to rate them. Quality is poor and confidence is shot. Such a dangerous combination.

Stop talking sense. No place on here

[samo II]

1 minute ago, Will Rollason said:

That's the fourth time in seventeen league games that we've conceded after 90 mins.

Seems like more tbh

Said a while ago (after the third one) it was a worrying trend and someone tried to take me to account on it.

While I don’t feel good for saying so, this kind of seals it - we have a problem.

[old_eastender]

13 minutes ago, samo II said:

We’ve pinned ourselves into a corner with a small squad, so I understand we don’t have much latitude when it comes to changing personnel too much.

But personally; if the coaches are finding a lack of desire and drive in players, they need to start reflecting that as far as possible in team selection.

I fully understand the argument of over-exposing young players to adult football, and they don’t want to ruin anyone by throwing them into the fire, but honestly; at this stage, I’d be promoting and trying out youth players instead of several of the senior pros.

At the very, very least you would bring a bit of energy to the side, and if those kids are decent - great - but even if not, they might at least start giving the senior pros food for thought.

I personally don’t think sacking the manager is going to do much; these players have effectively seen off three gaffers now, so it isn’t all on NP.

But that being the case; deal with the root cause - if a few games in the stands focuses the minds of some while they watch kids battle for their spot, would that be so bad?

I’m not sure it could be worse.

Well said. Really p1sses me off when you have someone like COD who after a good first half, disappears 2nd half AND stays on the pitch. Benarous running at their defence is exactly what we needed to occupy them and he was left get splinters in his arse, whist COD did nothing 2nd half. Bringing on Wells was a waste of time too. When are NP/CF going to learn that having Wells, Martin & Weimann on the pitch at the same time does not work.

[Red white and red]

3 minutes ago, stephenkibby. said:

But what is the answer ? playing the same players making the same mistakes week in week out is surly going to get us relagated.

Do we have any other options at all? At best we can change 2 or 3 players. We don’t have the squad depth or quality to make more changes than that per game. 

[GrahamC]

14 minutes ago, samo II said:

We’ve pinned ourselves into a corner with a small squad, so I understand we don’t have much latitude when it comes to changing personnel too much.

But personally; if the coaches are finding a lack of desire and drive in players, they need to start reflecting that as far as possible in team selection.

I fully understand the argument of over-exposing young players to adult football, and they don’t want to ruin anyone by throwing them into the fire, but honestly; at this stage, I’d be promoting and trying out youth players instead of several of the senior pros.

At the very, very least you would bring a bit of energy to the side, and if those kids are decent - great - but even if not, they might at least start giving the senior pros food for thought.

I personally don’t think sacking the manager is going to do much; these players have effectively seen off three gaffers now, so it isn’t all on NP.

But that being the case; deal with the root cause - if a few games in the stands focuses the minds of some while they watch kids battle for their spot, would that be so bad?

I’m not sure it could be worse.

Think you are right about the size of the squad, but today’s starting 11 had Tanner, Pring, HNM, Scott & Bakinson in it.

That is half of the outfield players who are either kids or inexperienced (or both). 

I really don’t think therefore that playing even more inexperienced players is the answer, but in truth I don’t know what is.
 

[Will Rollason]

Just now, samo II said:

Said a while ago (after the third one) it was a worrying trend and someone tried to take me to account on it.

While I don’t feel good for saying so, this kind of seals it - we have a problem.

It's the sort of thing that plays on your mind. It also transmits to the players. Barnsley the other day for instance, how we managed to win that is beyond me

[Fpcity]

He look very pissed off which is good. Can just imagine him giving the players an ear full in that Irish accent! 

[LondonBristolian]

5 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

You are talking about confidence not motivation. Professional footballers really shouldn't need much in the way of motivation put into them. Too many people make excuses for players and pin everything on Managers. The individual mistakes we saw today are on the players, nobody else.

Footballers are a weird species in that many of them take £20K per week out of their Employer and then hide behind the Manager when they fail to do what they have been asked to do.

No offence meant by this but I suspect anyone who does not realise how interlinked confidence and motivation are has either been lucky enough not to experience low confidence in the work place or not perceptive enough to understand the impact when it happened.

[samo II]

3 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Think you are right about the size of the squad, but today’s starting 11 had Tanner, Pring, HNM, Scott & Bakinson in it.

That is half of the outfield players who are either kids or inexperienced (or both). 

I really don’t think therefore that playing even more inexperienced players is the answer, but in truth I don’t know what is.
 

Yeah you’re likely right.

Truth be; I am just sick of seeing the same line up and the same outcomes.

I guess at least we lost in a different way today (against ten men) but it’s soul crushing.

Same with not know what the plan is.

[LondonBristolian]

5 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Think you are right about the size of the squad, but today’s starting 11 had Tanner, Pring, HNM, Scott & Bakinson in it.

That is half of the outfield players who are either kids or inexperienced (or both). 

I really don’t think therefore that playing even more inexperienced players is the answer, but in truth I don’t know what is.
 

I am not defending today but I do think a team with Baker and Atkinson at centre back and a midfield of Williams, James and King would have beaten the line up we put our today. Players are missing. That is certainly not the sole issue but it does not help either.

[Supersonic Robin]

6 minutes ago, old_eastender said:

Well said. Really p1sses me off when you have someone like COD who after a good first half, disappears 2nd half AND stays on the pitch. Benarous running at their defence is exactly what we needed to occupy them and he was left get splinters in his arse, whist COD did nothing 2nd half. Bringing on Wells was a waste of time too. When are NP/CF going to learn that having Wells, Martin & Weimann on the pitch at the same time does not work.

Appreciate where you're coming from, but what evidence is there that Benarous is ready to contribute anything meaningful? (Same goes for some of the other younger players).

Benarous really really struggled to make any kind of positive impact vs Barnsley. By no means am I writing off the likes of Benarous, but you can't just assume that they'll be an improvement. 

[The Swan and Cemetery]

Think a fair few of Baker, Atkinson, James, King and Williams could expect to start and as a min would strengthen the bench. When we’ve had some/most/all (?) of them playing, we haven’t looked amazing, but have looked more solid. If the international break allows a few to come back, that would help a lot.
 

A small squad resulting from FFP and some big wage earners that I’m sure we’d love to move on, does leave us in a precarious position. If we could get a couple out (seems unlikely, who would want them?) and a couple in (feasible if loans?) in Jan, we’ve a decent chance of staying up. Then further adjustments in the summer and some of the more promising younger players having had championship experience, maybe we move forward in 22/23. Difficult times though. 

[Ostrich]

9 minutes ago, HappyClapper said:

Anyone who’s ever played the game has played against 10 men and understand the need to control possession and move them around and hopefully make gaps and tire the opponents. This has nothing to do with coaching

It is to do with coaching. You’ve got the 4th lowest pass completion in the division, have the 3rd lowest average possession, the 5th lowest number of completed short passes, the 5th highest number of incomplete short passes. A team that isn’t used to passing, having the ball and isn’t very good at passing it isn’t suddenly going to become able to do it even against 10 men. It’s compounded today by the fact there’s not a leader in midfield, I think Matty James would have helped somewhat.

It’s not the only issue, nor do you need to play that way if you’re ahead but the fact that your passing and possession stats are dire, and they’ve got worse as the season has gone on is the responsibility of the coaches. You can play different ways but there’s nowhere to hide if you don’t play any way well.

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, LondonBristolian said:

No offence meant by this but I suspect anyone who does not realise how interlinked confidence and motivation are has either been lucky enough not to experience low confidence in the work place or not perceptive enough to understand the impact when it happened.

Fair enough and, as you correctly state, I've been lucky enough not to have my confidence shattered in the workplace but I'll ask you this:

Do you think the mistakes made by Vyner, Kalas, Bentley and Massengo today were just plain individual mistakes or lapses in concentration where the players simply should have done better or down to underlying issues caused by the coaching staff? I cannot fathom how anything Curtis Fleming did or didn't say before the game caused those moments to happen.

[Sweeneys Penalties]

38 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

It is the Manager and coaching staffs job to prepare, organise, enthuse and motivate the team. If they are claiming there is nothing they can do then either change the players you are talking about or accept you have failed and move over for someone else to have a go.

Players don't give up on Managers they have belief and confidence in.

to be fair I also think it's an individuals job to motivate themselves. If the players need a Psychologist...get one in, but not just shrug their collective shoulders and say its down to the players

[Malago]

8 minutes ago, old_eastender said:

Well said. Really p1sses me off when you have someone like COD who after a good first half, disappears 2nd half AND stays on the pitch. Benarous running at their defence is exactly what we needed to occupy them and he was left get splinters in his arse, whist COD did nothing 2nd half. Bringing on Wells was a waste of time too. When are NP/CF going to learn that having Wells, Martin & Weimann on the pitch at the same time does not work.

Agree totally about Wells substituíon.  Did he actually touch the ball?  COD is short of match fitness and should have been hooked after 60 minutes.

We subbed two of our best players, Scott and Pring.  Why?

Finally Jay Dasilva needs a rocket  up his derriere.  If there’s one player who typifies the lack of guts and will to win, it’s him.

[GrahamC]

2 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I am not defending today but I do think a team with Baker and Atkinson at centre back and a midfield of Williams, James and King would have beaten the line up we put our today. Players are missing. That is certainly not the sole issue but it does not help either.

Absolutely so.

I am prepared to give Pearson time but his rationale for running with a small squad was we would keep more players fit under Rennie & so today when we are missing 2 centre backs & 3 senior midfielders that plan falls flat when you can’t even get a draw v ten men.

[LondonBristolian]

5 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Fair enough and, as you correctly state, I've been lucky enough not to have my confidence shattered in the workplace but I'll ask you this:

Do you think the mistakes made by Vyner, Kalas, Bentley and Massengo today were just plain individual mistakes or lapses in concentration where the players simply should have done better or down to underlying issues caused by the coaching staff? I cannot fathom how anything Curtis Fleming did or didn't say before the game caused those moments to happen.

I think a lot comes down to confidence in the players around you. I think our players expect others around them to make mistakes, move to anticipate those and that means they leave gaps or move into positions that would not happen if they trusted others to get it right. Which leads to an increased number of errors.

[Tin Soldier]

39 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Being honest, I think we are struggling with the dual impact of a squad that is not good enough and managerial team that are very clear that the squad is not good enough. We have a team of poor players and a lack of balance but also a team that clearly know the manager does not rate them and probably suspect he is right not to rate them. Quality is poor and confidence is shot. Such a dangerous combination.

Agreed, there is a weak underbelly within this side. No determination, no desire, noone prepared to stand up and be counted. Quite frankly, one of the worst City teams in years. 
Shockingly awful. 

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, JonDolman said:

Well the instructions I think are the problem.

How poor was that from the beginning of the 2nd half. I might be wrong but probably not the best half time instructions.

Does Kalas need instruction not to head the ball downwards to the edge of the box when he's under no pressure at all? Does Massengo need to be told that if a player is running off him into a dangerous area and nobody else is covering he needs to get on his bike and cover it? It's easy to say what the Manager should and shouldn't have done but players not doing the absolute basics of football correctly get a free ride. Why?

Too many people over complicate football. Yes there are tactics and shape to work on but at the end of the day players have basic tasks they have to carry out in EVERY game they play regardless of the formation, irrespective of the defensive shape, whatever the instructions - too many of ours didn't do it today, it's not rocket science.

[Waconda]

19 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

No offence meant by this but I suspect anyone who does not realise how interlinked confidence and motivation are has either been lucky enough not to experience low confidence in the work place or not perceptive enough to understand the impact when it happened.

Exactly.

 

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think a lot comes down to confidence in the players around you. I think our players expect others around them to make mistakes, move to anticipate those and that means they leave gaps or move into positions that would not happen if they trusted others to get it right. Which leads to an increased number of errors.

Over a period of time, yes. But TODAY the first goal was a poor decision by Vyner, the second goal was THREE different and basic mistakes from a corner. Nothing related to covering gaps and getting dragged out of position to cover others. That is unforgivable AND inexcusable on the players part. The third goal was simply Massengo falling asleep at the wheel. Nothing anyone can do about that apart from not picking players who fall asleep at the wheel when it matters.

[redrob]

50 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

It is the Manager and coaching staffs job to prepare, organise, enthuse and motivate the team. If they are claiming there is nothing they can do then either change the players you are talking about or accept you have failed and move over for someone else to have a go.

Players don't give up on Managers they have belief and confidence in.

Short termism approach. If players cannot get motivated they need to be moved on (easier said than done I know). 

I see a group who are storming. There are clearly players calling es h other out. Long term (if we can wait that long) they'll be a better group for this hard run.

[HappyClapper]

6 minutes ago, Ostrich said:

It is to do with coaching. You’ve got the 4th lowest pass completion in the division, have the 3rd lowest average possession, the 5th lowest number of completed short passes, the 5th highest number of incomplete short passes. A team that isn’t used to passing, having the ball and isn’t very good at passing it isn’t suddenly going to become able to do it even against 10 men. It’s compounded today by the fact there’s not a leader in midfield, I think Matty James would have helped somewhat.

It’s not the only issue, nor do you need to play that way if you’re ahead but the fact that your passing and possession stats are dire, and they’ve got worse as the season has gone on is the responsibility of the coaches. You can play different ways but there’s nowhere to hide if you don’t play any way well.

You have made some good points, and I get your rationale. I’m just furious at the idea that we can’t control the game v10 and end up conceding 3 goals. I get that our stats are poor, but I’m not prepared to blame the coaches and let the players off the hook after that second half. We have capitulated so many times, that is not due to coaching or shape or anything other than professionalism, desire and commitment. 3 things that many of our players lack. We lack leaders and players willing to take responsibility on the pitch. They all seem to be looking to someone else. Pearson’s MO seems to be to designed to find out who is capable of what he wants,(who’s on the bus) and then to ship those out who don’t pass muster. The rot at our club is so deep that he has found that he has very few worth keeping. 

[Davefevs]

55 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

It is the Manager and coaching staffs job to prepare, organise, enthuse and motivate the team. If they are claiming there is nothing they can do then either change the players you are talking about or accept you have failed and move over for someone else to have a go.

Players don't give up on Managers they have belief and confidence in.

As 11 players v 10, do you think they haven’t prepared and organised them?  You maybe right about enthuse and motivate….in which case we have a shower of shit amongst our group of players at the club if they can only perform when enthused.  I didn’t need my manager to get me up for a game, I had personal pride.  DN f%%king A….my arse.  I would’ve been thinking here’s a chance to win 3,4,5.

Weak players.

[Waconda]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

As 11 players v 10, do you think they haven’t prepared and organised them?  You maybe right about enthuse and motivate….in which case we have a shower of shit amongst our group of players at the club if they can only perform when enthused.  I didn’t need my manager to get me up for a game, I had personal pride.  DN f%%king A….my arse.  I would’ve been thinking here’s a chance to win 3,4,5.

Weak players.

Combined with weak coaching = Relegation.

[HappyClapper]

6 minutes ago, redrob said:

Short termism approach. If players cannot get motivated they need to be moved on (easier said than done I know). 

I see a group who are storming. There are clearly players calling es h other out. Long term (if we can wait that long) they'll be a better group for this hard run.

Good point. Let’s hope that there are players calling each other out. We need leaders on the pitch. Not all leaders are born, but they can be made by being given opportunities to show leadership and developing. I’m hoping some of our younger players have the confidence to call out the more experienced members of the squad.

[Davefevs]

43 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Well the instructions I think are the problem.

How poor was that from the beginning of the 2nd half. I might be wrong but probably not the best half time instructions.

Quite simply….you cannot put that down to “not the best ht instructions”.  Did Curtis instruct to play with less organisational discipline and effort than first?  No!

[The Swan and Cemetery]

56 minutes ago, samo II said:

Said a while ago (after the third one) it was a worrying trend and someone tried to take me to account on it.

While I don’t feel good for saying so, this kind of seals it - we have a problem.

The nature of their winner is really disappointing and strongly indicates lack of intrinsic ability to deliver commitment/effort. It wasn’t a punt into the box with their goalkeeper up, a series of ricochets and a lucky deflection… it was a 5-a-side canter, with their players running with the ball and off the ball, whilst no one made an effort to get near them. I doubt any of our players consciously thought “I can’t be arsed”, more an indication that not enough are hard wired to push themselves to the absolute limit for the cause. 

[Roger Red Hat]

just to cheer everyone up. I don't think it was posted about BCFC!

 

[Supersonic Robin]

1 hour ago, VT05763 said:

It is the Manager and coaching staffs job to prepare, organise, enthuse and motivate the team. If they are claiming there is nothing they can do then either change the players you are talking about or accept you have failed and move over for someone else to have a go.

 

1 hour ago, The Swan and Cemetery said:

Couldn’t agree more - tactics, set up and so on, fair enough to call out manager and coaching team. But desire/effort, if someone needs someone else to do that for them, when they’re earning potloads compared to the average person, there’s something badly wrong with them. Have some pride. Care about doing your best for the supporters travelling and paying their hard earned cash. 

 

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

As 11 players v 10, do you think they haven’t prepared and organised them?  You maybe right about enthuse and motivate….in which case we have a shower of shit amongst our group of players at the club if they can only perform when enthused.  I didn’t need my manager to get me up for a game, I had personal pride.  DN f%%king A….my arse.  I would’ve been thinking here’s a chance to win 3,4,5.

This. How much motivation do you need from your manager?

Fair enough if the players fundamentally don't give a crap about Bristol City Football Club, I don't expect them to love the club like we do. But have some professional pride. Do it for yourself if not for the club.

I ****ing hated losing games playing for my local team, or even playing on the school field at lunchtime FFS! Not being embarrassed was sufficient motivation. Not having people take the piss was sufficient motivation. Being able to be proud of myself was sufficient motivation.

The idea that anyone with so little self pride and self motivation could actually become a professional athlete is beyond me. If our coaches need to "motivate" our players not to be battered by 10 man Coventry, then our issues with club culture are far greater than I thought possible. 

[REDOXO]

1 hour ago, Red white and red said:

Why? Like he would even be remotely bothered about another implosion.

You maybe right. But it was worth a shot. What’s the weather like in the Caribbean right now?

[Davefevs]

Just now, Supersonic Robin said:

 

 

This. How much motivation do you need from your manager?

Fair enough if the players fundamentally don't give a crap about Bristol City Football Club, I don't expect them to love the club like we do. But have some professional pride. Do it for yourself if not for the club.

I ****ing hated losing games playing for my local team, or even playing on the school field at lunchtime FFS! Not being embarrassed was sufficient motivation. Not having people take the piss was sufficient motivation. Being able to be proud of myself was sufficient motivation.

The idea that anyone with so little self pride and self motivation could actually become a professional athlete is beyond me. If our coaches need to "motivate" our players not to be battered by 10 man Coventry, then our issues with club culture are far greater than I thought possible. 

Exactly, it’s bollocks….it’s rhetoric to suit a changing personal opinion that Pearson isn’t the man.  It’s all about trying to justify that change.

Easier to say, “I no longer think Nige is the man” than guesswork about motivation, half-time instruction, training ground dribbling discouraged etc, but when asked have no evidence for those comments, just personal opinion.

There is no harm in changing minds….I think it’s healthy to review, reflect and if you think it’s different, change your mind.

[Pezo]

Once again the coaching staff get it, they see it. No excuses from them, I like that. But for me it's once too many times seeing all the problems with zero reaction from the players.

Why aren't the players responding to coaching staff? I can only think its ability.

[Waconda]

8 minutes ago, Supersonic Robin said:

 

 

This. How much motivation do you need from your manager?

Fair enough if the players fundamentally don't give a crap about Bristol City Football Club, I don't expect them to love the club like we do. But have some professional pride. Do it for yourself if not for the club.

I ****ing hated losing games playing for my local team, or even playing on the school field at lunchtime FFS! Not being embarrassed was sufficient motivation. Not having people take the piss was sufficient motivation. Being able to be proud of myself was sufficient motivation.

The idea that anyone with so little self pride and self motivation could actually become a professional athlete is beyond me. If our coaches need to "motivate" our players not to be battered by 10 man Coventry, then our issues with club culture are far greater than I thought possible. 

Think we are miles apart on this -

Absolutely essential for a Manager (in any profession) to motivate his players/staff.  That is essentially their job !

Can't believe these players don't care, can't be bothered and as you say personal pride comes into it. More likely in my opinion they have lost faith and trust in what they are being told to do and in who is doing the telling.

The Barnsley game was the big giveaway for me.

I may of course be totally wrong.

[054123]

1 hour ago, petehinton said:

He told them to shut up shop at HT against 10 men???!!!

I don’t think he meant it like that.

Lock it up as in no mistakes, do all the basics right and they won’t score.

[old_eastender]

1 hour ago, Supersonic Robin said:

Appreciate where you're coming from, but what evidence is there that Benarous is ready to contribute anything meaningful? (Same goes for some of the other younger players).

Benarous really really struggled to make any kind of positive impact vs Barnsley. By no means am I writing off the likes of Benarous, but you can't just assume that they'll be an improvement. 

True, but you ain't going to find out without giving them a chance, 30 mins say, not just 10 mins at the end of a game. For me today would have been perfect to bring Benerous on, as COD just went missing in action for the 2nd half (after a good 1st half).

[The Swan and Cemetery]

2 minutes ago, old_eastender said:

True, but you ain't going to find out without giving them a chance, 30 mins say, not just 10 mins at the end of a game. For me today would have been perfect to bring Benerous on, as COD just went missing in action for the 2nd half (after a good 1st half).

1st half table: 6th

2nd half table: 23rd

Fitness, resilience, something else? 

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, Supersonic Robin said:

Appreciate where you're coming from, but what evidence is there that Benarous is ready to contribute anything meaningful? (Same goes for some of the other younger players).

Benarous really really struggled to make any kind of positive impact vs Barnsley. By no means am I writing off the likes of Benarous, but you can't just assume that they'll be an improvement. 

Spot on, he was completely anonymous but because he didn’t come on today then he’s suddenly become the answer.

There have been a couple of posts saying “play the youngsters”, look at today’s team, 50% of it was youngsters & I really don’t think playing more of them is the answer.

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Absolutely essential for a Manager (in any profession) to motivate his players/staff.  That is essentially their job !

Or have self-motivated staff, that just need gentle direction here and there.

I’m glad my manager doesn’t need to manage 95% of the work I do.  I understand the guidelines, processes, my role in the team, because my manager is clear.  My manager then allows me to execute within those things above.  I don’t need “well done Dave”, I don’t need “have you done that yet Dave”.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Davefevs

[The Swan and Cemetery]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Or have self-motivated staff, that just need gentle direction here and there.

I’m glad my manager doesn’t need to manage 95% of the work I do.  I understand the guidelines, processes, my role in the term, because my manager is clear.  My manager then allows me to execute within those things above.  I don’t need “well done Dave”, I don’t need “have you done that yet Dave”.

Yep, a better leader/manager will be good for ensuring the organisation/team is heading in the right direction and that will make folk happier, but a poor manager needn’t impact your own self respect to do your best (and for most people, it’s not their direct manager paying their wages, so opportunity to pay some respect to that as well, by doing your best). 

[Taylor10]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

This is a guy who’s playing career was all about grit and determination.  As a team we are not prepared to work hard enough to do the hard yards together, imho.

I think he’s right when he says it’s not about tactics and formations second half per se, it’s about desire.  Too many players strolling at times, only running hard when it suited them.  Players probably thought 1-0up, against 10 men, job done.  Then Cov have a go, and get on top.

I don’t know what the answer is.

If as a couple of posters they they think the manager / coaches is the reason, then where’s their professional pride?  Where was it with Holden?

I think it’s too easy to blame the manager….nor am I saying he is blameless either….but we love to pinpoint one or two people.  

Bang on Dave. I think the manager & tactics have to be questioned, but I said in another thread that some of these players have under performed consistently for 3 different managers. This is a very very poor squad of players make no mistake about that. 

[prankerd]

2 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

Being honest, I think we are struggling with the dual impact of a squad that is not good enough and managerial team that are very clear that the squad is not good enough. We have a team of poor players and a lack of balance but also a team that clearly know the manager does not rate them and probably suspect he is right not to rate them. Quality is poor and confidence is shot. Such a dangerous combination.

If my manager didnt rate me id do everything to prove him wrong.. let alone 20k bristol city fans every home game booing me! I dont think its effort from the players i just think they arnt very good..

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Taylor10 said:

Bang on Dave. I think the manager & tactics have to be questioned, but I said in another thread that some of these players have under performed consistently for 3 different managers. This is a very very poor squad of players make no mistake about that. 

At a basic level, tactically, 4141, men behind the ball, Martin left on his own to close the CBs a bit. 4 midfielders ready to engage….Weimann and O’Dowda to engage WBs in early possession phase.  Once over the halfway line, become hard to penetrate….if they long ball switch, so be it.  With the ball, look to get O’Dowda and Weimann running off Martin, but Massengo and Scott look to get its and pieces….Bakinson don’t go past those two.  Lots of other finer points.  We started slowly, but grew into the half, started looking a bit better as the half drew to an end, getting the pen and almost a second from a good press.

I think first half was, “if we lose an early goal, we are gonna be in for a long afternoon”, and you saw good commitment, desire to block, Kalas sprinting 60 yards back from a corner breakaway etc.

Second half I saw little done at full-tilt.  I saw Massengo give up after turning square into trouble.  I didn’t see enough of the 4141 once Cov got over the halfway line.  I saw Dabo and Kane getting high up the pitch…they had 10 men.  Collectively not enough players working hard enough.

The tactics were set first half, there wasn’t enough commitment to work hard enough to execute them in the second half.

Theres a part of me that says 11v10, tactics become an irrelevance, should be able to play keep ball for large portions of that game.  We didn’t.