Team and Tactics for Blackburn

[Waconda]

Sounds like we will be going all out to stop the haemorrhaging of chances and goals this Saturday.

We already create next to nothing so is this the correct strategy ?

Should we going down the "risk reward" path instead ?

Certainly feel we are caught in between the two at the moment - looking like conceding every opposition attack ( at least a shot on target, if not a goal) and feeding off second/third ball "scraps" up front.

We could well play a legit 5 at the back and go full blown Wimbledon I suppose.

[Clutton Caveman]

1 minute ago, VT05763 said:

Sounds like we will be going all out to stop the haemorrhaging of chances and goals this Saturday.

We already create next to nothing so is this the correct strategy ?

Should we going down the "risk reward" path instead ?

Certainly feel we are caught in between the two at the moment - looking like conceding every opposition attack ( at least a shot on target, if not a goal) and feeding off second/third ball "scraps" up front.

We could well play a legit 5 at the back and go full blown Wimbledon I suppose.

Wimbledon had 4 or 5 monsters to win the high ball and aggression all over the pitch to win the second balls. We have neither unfortunately.

 

[GrahamC]

In our last 6 games we have let in 13 goals, so although the OP talks about “parking the bus” (& what a stupid phrase that is) I think it is nothing of the sort.

NP talked yesterday about wanting a “gritty” performance, so he is looking for more defensive desire from the entire side to block crosses, win tackles & at the very least deny free headers & shots.

This doesn’t mean picking 9 defenders or being ultra defensive, but players doing their job.

Looking at Coventry’s home record & our lack of confidence & form it seems a tough ask but he is looking for at the minimum signs of effort, work rate & desire.

A point would be a great result in light of the likely absence of all our senior midfielders.

[Super]

For me we have to make this a messy game. We aren't good enough to play an expansive game i do think at times we have defended well this season just let down by individual errors. 

[Shuffle]

Heading up tomorrow in hope rather than expectation.  What I do expect is 100% commitment as a bare minimum as whilst we will not be in a good position at the moment, I’m fed up with these limp displays. 
 

Personally would play 4-5-1 but we are limited in options

Bents

Tanner/Kalas/Atkinson/Pring

Weimann/HNM/Vyner/O’Dowda

Scott

Wells

There’s no way that he will go with this as Martin/Bakinson will start.

Think Weimann is a waste wide but needs must for this game.  Come on City let’s get some pride back as since last international break we’ve been shocking.

 

 

[Davefevs]

40 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Sounds like we will be going all out to stop the haemorrhaging of chances and goals this Saturday.

We already create next to nothing so is this the correct strategy ?

Should we going down the "risk reward" path instead ?

Certainly feel we are caught in between the two at the moment - looking like conceding every opposition attack ( at least a shot on target, if not a goal) and feeding off second/third ball "scraps" up front.

We could well play a legit 5 at the back and go full blown Wimbledon I suppose.

That’s a bit of poetic license on your part isn’t it?

Stopping chances doesn’t have to mean any of the things you suggest.  If we can stop the root cause of chance#, it can in fact mean we create more chances.  He is not suggesting playing the game as it it we’re attack v defence is he?

15 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

In our last 6 games we have let in 13 goals, so although the OP talks about “parking the bus” (& what a stupid phrase that is) I think it is nothing of the sort.

NP talked yesterday about wanting a “gritty” performance, so he is looking for more defensive desire from the entire side to block crosses, win tackles & at the very least deny free headers & shots.

This doesn’t mean picking 9 defenders or being ultra defensive, but players doing their job.

Looking at Coventry’s home record & our lack of confidence & form it seems a tough ask but he is looking for at the minimum signs of effort, work rate & desire.

A point would be a great result in light of the likely absence of all our senior midfielders.

And stop the source of those passes in the first place.

[Supersonic Robin]

I think sorting out the defensive fragility is probably the first step in arresting our poor form. This was one of my main expectations of Pearson for this season - I anticipated that we may be rather lacklustre going forward, but felt we could at least make ourselves difficult to beat/score against.

FWIW I don't have any issue with 'defensive football' if that's what it takes. Many fans talk about "just wanting to see some exciting attacking football", but IMO the main source of excitement is competitiveness. I'll happily sit there for 90 minutes watching us defend competently, resiliently, and bravely to grind out points.

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

                Bentley

Tanner  Kalas  Atkinson Pring 

                 Bakinson

        Massengo O'Dowda 

                    Scott 

           Weimann  Wells

 

Bollocks to it. Attack!

Can’t believe the 11 will deviate much from that.

[Davefevs]

27 minutes ago, Supersonic Robin said:

I think sorting out the defensive fragility is probably the first step in arresting our poor form. This was one of my main expectations of Pearson for this season - I anticipated that we may be rather lacklustre going forward, but felt we could at least make ourselves difficult to beat/score against.

FWIW I don't have any issue with 'defensive football' if that's what it takes. Many fans talk about "just wanting to see some exciting attacking football", but IMO the main source of excitement is competitiveness. I'll happily sit there for 90 minutes watching us defend competently, resiliently, and bravely to grind out points.

It’s funny, I see defensively fragility as a unit, because I think our defenders, in the main, defend pretty decently.  Boring old cliche, but defence starts from the front, and I think we need to improve what is happening in front of the back line.  

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Martin bound to start though!

And I reckon he might look to do something a bit different in midfield if James is out. A more defensive type player.

Vyner possibly in there. I do like him in midfield. Played well in most games in that position last season imo.

If Williams and James are out I think he has to go with Vyner.

[mozo]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

If Williams and James are out I think he has to go with Vyner.

Yeah, I wonder if he will. Vyner Bakinson and Massengo as a midfield trio?

[Rossi the Robin]

2 minutes ago, mozo said:

Yeah, I wonder if he will. Vyner Bakinson and Massengo as a midfield trio?

I’d have Palmer in there instead of Bakinson, if his heads right will put some challenges in

Cant say I really like those 2 trios anyhow, a bit scary and light 

[red panda]

Do you think Nige might play himself? 

[Waconda]

10 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

Who said we are "parking the bus " . You say it "sounds like " . Where did you get that from ? Who suggested that ? As no one else has suggested that in the public interviews. Is this something you got from the training ground ? 

From his interview, That's the message I got. I could well be wrong.

A collective desire to keep the ball out of our net, we've not kept enough clean sheets which always gives us a problem," Pearson said.

"We're not working hard enough to stay in games. Win or lose games is how it’s going and we’re losing too many. We’re not slugging out for scruffy wins and not slugging out for scruffy draws."

Edited November 5, 2021 by VT05763

[Engvall’s Splinter]

1 hour ago, Shuffle said:

Heading up tomorrow in hope rather than expectation.  What I do expect is 100% commitment as a bare minimum as whilst we will not be in a good position at the moment, I’m fed up with these limp displays. 
 

Personally would play 4-5-1 but we are limited in options

Bents

Tanner/Kalas/Atkinson/Pring

Weimann/HNM/Vyner/O’Dowda

Scott

Wells

There’s no way that he will go with this as Martin/Bakinson will start.

Think Weimann is a waste wide but needs must for this game.  Come on City let’s get some pride back as since last international break we’ve been shocking.

 

 

Nothing against you here Shuffle - yet when others state how “quality” our squad is and the fact that Pearson should be getting a better tune out of it (which I agree with in some instances) and then we potentially have Vyner at centre midfield I find it laughable. Vyner wouldn’t get in most sides as defender let alone as a midfielder. That shows where we are and the reality of the “quality” within in both our first 11 and squad. 

[phantom]

43 minutes ago, Rossi the Robin said:

I’d have Palmer in there instead of Bakinson, if his heads right will put some challenges in

Cant say I really like those 2 trios anyhow, a bit scary and light 

Never going to happen - when he came on recently to close down in midfield he spent the remainder of the game drifting out wide, I am guessing from where you were you could not hear and see NP going crazy - hence he has not made a squad since !

[DaveInSA]

We still have 845 midfielders on the books at the club. Through lack of fitness or injuries we've not actually fielded the three best midfielders that we have, in the same game.

That said, the midfielders that do play, astonishingly don't have any impact on the game at all. Basically, wot he said...

16 minutes ago, phantom said:

Never going to happen - when he came on recently to close down in midfield he spent the remainder of the game drifting out wide, I am guessing from where you were you could not hear and see NP going crazy - hence he has not made a squad since !

 

[Super]

50 minutes ago, red panda said:

Do you think Nige might play himself? 

Up front instead of Martin...

[marmite]

Keeping our full backs wider to prevent the crosses and getting our midfielders to stop the supply to opposing wingers thereby forcing the opposition to play the way we want them to. I played extensively at full back in my youth and I never allowed my winger the time to control it , look up , and measure his cross the way ours do.

We need to play out from the back keeping the ball on the ground. We don't have enough height to play the long high ball game.

All easy to say I know but with our team it appears hard to execute. 

[GrahamC]

47 minutes ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

Nothing against you here Shuffle - yet when others state how “quality” our squad is and the fact that Pearson should be getting a better tune out of it (which I agree with in some instances) and then we potentially have Vyner at centre midfield I find it laughable. Vyner wouldn’t get in most sides as defender let alone as a midfielder. That shows where we are and the reality of the “quality” within in both our first 11 and squad. 

To me this is the difference between a theory & reality.

Most people would have our central midfield options in this order;

James, Williams (it doesn’t matter which way around, you will always pick two) then HNM & then King or Bakinson. The last 2 are arguable in what order but what is definitely the case is that if the first two are missing, King would be involved.

Tomorrow it is highly likely none of those 3 senior players will be available (or if James is, he obviously won’t be anywhere near 100% fit). 
In these particular circumstances Vyner is a useful option.

Likewise at the back Kalas & Atkinson are first choice, Baker next then Vyner.

To me (& that is excluding his games at RB) this demonstrates his value, a versatile, low wage, squad player.

I think the likes of Luton, Preston & Millwall all have players like this.

Longer term Zak might not be here, but honestly for me he’s not the problem.

Edited November 5, 2021 by GrahamC

[cityloyal473]

The problem with parking the bus is once the brake comes off (a Cov goal) we have no way of putting it back on. Lets have a go and lose instead of losing while being totally passive. 

[1960maaan]

They are a good passing team, keep the ball well and move it just as well. We don't.
We have struggled against teams like Cov, because when we occasionally do get the ball back, we go more direct with lower % chance of getting or keeping it, they pick up the loose ball and we start again.

I would pack the MF. They seem to play a 3-4-1-2, looks like the WBs like to get forward. We could match them up, but I think with Vyner as a shield , maybe 4-1-4-1

Tanner - Kalas - Atkinson - Pring
                    Vyner
Weimann - HNM - Bakinson - COD
                     Wells

Even move HNM along side Vyner, but I don't see him sitting in.  We have potentially decent movement in that side, and Bakinson can see a pass (even though his Radar was way off at Brum). I would probably give Palmer that spot, but that seems unlikely. The AW/KW/CM system has surely ran it's course, not looked like being effective . It has to be time for a change, or a tweak. Options are slim, I don't think any of the young lads are ready, though I'm looking forward to Conway getting fit. The only thing to try is a formation shuffle and give Wells a chance centrally. 

[chinapig]

43 minutes ago, phantom said:

Never going to happen - when he came on recently to close down in midfield he spent the remainder of the game drifting out wide, I am guessing from where you were you could not hear and see NP going crazy - hence he has not made a squad since !

That's the crux of the matter with Palmer. Lots of talent but no football brain. Multiple managers have been unable to coach that into him so he seems unlikely to change.

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Can’t believe the 11 will deviate much from that.

If James is out then I expect 10 of them to start, but Martin will do so & so one of Scott, O’Dowda or possibly Dasilva (with Pring in front of him) will be in the XI, though I have a poor track record at getting it right…

[1960maaan]

19 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

If James is out then I expect 10 of them to start, but Martin will do so & so one of Scott, O’Dowda or possibly Dasilva (with Pring in front of him) will be in the XI, though I have a poor track record at getting it right…

If recent history is anything to go by, so do our Managers 

[Offside]

Whoever is picked and whatever system we play, first and foremost the players need to take responsibility for making it as difficult as possible for Coventry. 

Some of the goals we’ve conceded recently have been so cheap.

A couple of examples: 

Barnsley’s goal - their player who got the assist outmuscled our player (James)? too easily.

Birmingham’s first goal - yes it was a deflection, but we didn’t make it difficult for him to shoot. 

Birmingham’s second goal - straight from a big punt from the keeper, we were brushed aside too easily. 

Far too often we are outmuscled or give opponents space to pass/cross/shoot. Our full backs are regularly left exposed.

 

 

[mozo]

1 hour ago, JonDolman said:

Yeah probably the sensible move. Bakinson in that deep role could be great if we play well but just because he's looked better recently it's hard to trust him there just yet.

Vyner would likely be the more reliable option. I would actually be surprised if he didn't have a decent game because he rarely let us down in the DM role last season.

Middle of the back 3 the other night he looked classy at times for an hour but then he's always going to struggle in the air against someone as strong as Deeney. None of the other stuff matters when he is that weak challenging a simple long ball.

The decision to play him centrally was a strange one. I don't think many managers go with him there and Kalas right. I know Kalas is quicker on the turn in wide areas, but surely we needed our most dominant, strongest defender to play centrally.

If we can somehow get a decent result (I'm not at all confident!) then we have players returning after the international break. So hopefully then our season can get going with some better options. A point would be very good, but Robins has got them playing very well.

Hopefully Cundy, Baker, James, Williams and Semenyo all back. They're all physically strong players which is something we probably need a bit more of. But also the quality some of them offer.

Semenyo giving us pace we lack too as O'Dowda never gets a game now, and not much else that has raw pace in attacking areas.

Just waiting on King then, but I'm hoping Bakinson goes ahead of him in a fully fit squad, if we ever have one.

I expect we probably just get more injuries so no point in being too optimistic!

Just to pick up on Cundy who you've listed as an option when fit... a/ we don't know if he is capable of playing at this level at this stage of his career, and b/ even if he can, how much gametime would he need to get up to scratch and how many errors could we accept along the way? 

Atkinson has adapted well, but still has some improving to do, which is normal. Cundy, who knows 

[GrahamC]

4 minutes ago, Offside said:

Whoever is picked and whatever system we play, first and foremost the players need to take responsibility for making it as difficult as possible for Coventry. 

Some of the goals we’ve conceded recently have been so cheap.

A couple of examples: 

Barnsley’s goal - their player who got the assist outmuscled our player (James)? too easily.

Birmingham’s first goal - yes it was a deflection, but we didn’t make it difficult for him to shoot. 

Birmingham’s second goal - straight from a big punt from the keeper, we were brushed aside too easily. 

Far too often we are outmuscled or give opponents space to pass/cross/shoot. Our full backs are regularly left exposed.

 

 

Spot on.

I watched the highlights of wins at QPR & Reading in previous seasons you had Ashley Williams, Kalas, Baker all throwing themselves into challenges & blocks.

We need this from those in front of the defence too.

The 3rd goal at Birmingham was even worse, both Bakinson & HNM put in half hearted attempts to dispossess Gardner, a terrible effort.

[Major Isewater]

34 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

though I have a poor track record at getting it right…

Do you work for the Post ?

[mozo]

7 minutes ago, mozo said:

Just to pick up on Cundy who you've listed as an option when fit... a/ we don't know if he is capable of playing at this level at this stage of his career, and b/ even if he can, how much gametime would he need to get up to scratch and how many errors could we accept along the way? 

Atkinson has adapted well, but still has some improving to do, which is normal. Cundy, who knows 

Ah...just realised there's already a thread about him...

[Lew-T]

27 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Spot on.

I watched the highlights of wins at QPR & Reading in previous seasons you had Ashley Williams, Kalas, Baker all throwing themselves into challenges & blocks.

We need this from those in front of the defence too.

The 3rd goal at Birmingham was even worse, both Bakinson & HNM put in half hearted attempts to dispossess Gardner, a terrible effort.

And not forgetting Vyner’s marking in the box….

Embarrassing stuff.

[Super]

1 hour ago, marmite said:

Keeping our full backs wider to prevent the crosses and getting our midfielders to stop the supply to opposing wingers thereby forcing the opposition to play the way we want them to. I played extensively at full back in my youth and I never allowed my winger the time to control it , look up , and measure his cross the way ours do.

We need to play out from the back keeping the ball on the ground. We don't have enough height to play the long high ball game.

All easy to say I know but with our team it appears hard to execute. 

Problem is neither Tanner or JD are very good defenders and better attacking.

[Henry]

Knowing City, we’d park the bus in front of their goal, rather than ours.

[sludge]

3 hours ago, Supersonic Robin said:

I think sorting out the defensive fragility is probably the first step in arresting our poor form. This was one of my main expectations of Pearson for this season - I anticipated that we may be rather lacklustre going forward, but felt we could at least make ourselves difficult to beat/score against.

FWIW I don't have any issue with 'defensive football' if that's what it takes. Many fans talk about "just wanting to see some exciting attacking football", but IMO the main source of excitement is competitiveness. I'll happily sit there for 90 minutes watching us defend competently, resiliently, and bravely to grind out points.

At the moment I just want to see a team that looks like they're up for it! No shirking tackles, no poor body language. I just want some effort and commitment. If we get beat, but the opposition's had to work their nuts off for it then I can live with that.

Just sick to the back teeth of these limp performances where opponents walk off the pitch thinking what a soft touch we are.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, VT05763 said:

From his interview, That's the message I got. I could well be wrong.

A collective desire to keep the ball out of our net, we've not kept enough clean sheets which always gives us a problem," Pearson said.

"We're not working hard enough to stay in games. Win or lose games is how it’s going and we’re losing too many. We’re not slugging out for scruffy wins and not slugging out for scruffy draws."

….and in the same interview, words to the affect of “stopping the root cause”, the initial pass with little pressure.  We’d not parked the bus at all this season.  The above quote would not lead me to think we were gonna park the bus tomorrow.

Do you have a source at the training ground….quite a few “IMOs”, which is like adding a to a post?  Nobody is gonna ask you who, but you post things like above, which you’ve taken from an interview yet imply in other posts you have some inside knowledge.  That’s fine if you do btw.

1 hour ago, cityloyal473 said:

The problem with parking the bus is once the brake comes off (a Cov goal) we have no way of putting it back on. Lets have a go and lose instead of losing while being totally passive. 

As above, we’ve yet to park the bus this season, and I honestly can’t remember when that has been our intention.

8 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

And not forgetting Vyner’s marking in the box….

Embarrassing stuff.

Not convinced Vyner is at fault.  It was him that chased a long ball into the bottom left wing corner, laying it to Bentley to clear to Gardner.

 

Gardner strides on, Atkinson starts to engage Vyner not in picture yet, having been in corner.

 

Gardner plays it wide, Atkinson marking him / closest to him Vyner now in shot with Kalas looking to mark Jutkiewicz and Hogan.

 

Graham shapes to cross Atkinson not checked his right shoulder, he’s basically lost Gardner.

 

Vyner realising Atkinson has got caught ball-watching tries to get across….too late

 

My analysis, if you want to blame a player….then it’s Atkinson.  But it definitely isn’t Vyner.

We cannot tell what comms have gone on, but I find it hard to believe that at any stage Atkinson has said “I’m passing Gardner on”….let alone to Vyner.

[Shuffle]

2 hours ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

Nothing against you here Shuffle - yet when others state how “quality” our squad is and the fact that Pearson should be getting a better tune out of it (which I agree with in some instances) and then we potentially have Vyner at centre midfield I find it laughable. Vyner wouldn’t get in most sides as defender let alone as a midfielder. That shows where we are and the reality of the “quality” within in both our first 11 and squad. 

Suppose with the absence of King,James,Williams it was a choice of  Vyner or Bakinson And I ain’t having Tyreeq as a player at all. Your right though it’s poor quality for the championship 

[Davefevs]

18 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Going back to Blackpool I think it shows how much great coaching can do for a team. Little experience at this level, not only are they picking up points, they're doing so taking risks and having a go. But I certainly wouldn't want to swap squads of players.

Firstly agree with the whole of the post.  Critchley doing really well.  Had a slow start last season but then then really got going.

They are building on that momentum, recruiting well, and showing the benefits of patience.  A series of mid-table finishes as they recovered from the Oyston era, but what appears to be a great appointment in Critchley.

[054123]

1 hour ago, 1960maaan said:

If recent history is anything to go by, so do our Managers 

If recent history is anything to go by so does our owner.

[WessexPest]

I seriously hope not - it would be a cretinous strategy; we can’t defend and it took every sinew to keep a poor Barnsley side out of our net last week.

Let’s show a bit of attacking intent for once and give the big following we are taking to the Ricoh something to get excited about  - we don’t look like turning possession into chances currently, let alone chances into goals.

Park the bus up your bum.

[Lew-T]

26 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

….and in the same interview, words to the affect of “stopping the root cause”, the initial pass with little pressure.  We’d not parked the bus at all this season.  The above quote would not lead me to think we were gonna park the bus tomorrow.

Do you have a source at the training ground….quite a few “IMOs”, which is like adding a to a post?  Nobody is gonna ask you who, but you post things like above, which you’ve taken from an interview yet imply in other posts you have some inside knowledge.  That’s fine if you do btw.

As above, we’ve yet to park the bus this season, and I honestly can’t remember when that has been our intention.

Not convinced Vyner is at fault.  It was him that chased a long ball into the bottom left wing corner, laying it to Bentley to clear to Gardner.

 

Gardner strides on, Atkinson starts to engage Vyner not in picture yet, having been in corner.

 

Gardner plays it wide, Atkinson marking him / closest to him Vyner now in shot with Kalas looking to mark Jutkiewicz and Hogan.

 

Graham shapes to cross Atkinson not checked his right shoulder, he’s basically lost Gardner.

 

Vyner realising Atkinson has got caught ball-watching tries to get across….too late

 

My analysis, if you want to blame a player….then it’s Atkinson.  But it definitely isn’t Vyner.

We cannot tell what comms have gone on, but I find it hard to believe that at any stage Atkinson has said “I’m passing Gardner on”….let alone to Vyner.

Fair shout mate, you’ve prepared for a Vyner bashing

In all seriousness, looking at it like that in stages you could argue TK or Zak need to communicate with Atkinson, as they’ve got a better view.

Either way, it’s so soft.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

Fair shout mate, you’ve prepared for a Vyner bashing

In all seriousness, looking at it like that in stages you could argue TK or Zak need to communicate with Atkinson, as they’ve got a better view.

Either way, it’s so soft.

Crap goal. 100%.

Agree, would love to know the comms that go on between players.  I see poor examples of “passing on” markers all the time.  Talking (shouting!) was a big part of my own game, and when I played with better players at Bris and Odd Down the chat was constant between the defence, especially keeper and centre backs.

[sludge]

13 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

He seems to be a very clever manager.

I don't watch much prem football, but I remember him having a Liverpool team of kids playing superbly well against a senior Villa side in the cup. Klopp gave him the job for the league cup games I think.

They got thrashed I think, but the defence were far too weak to be able to cope and keeper bit too young and dodgy. The power of the experienced Villa players would always win that game, but they got out passed by a bunch of kids.

Looking at the passing and patterns of play, no doubt they had some good technical players playing too, but I'm not sure how many of them would even make it at that high a level. Harvey Eliott the only one I remember as obviously being really special.

Herbie Kane was one of the players. It just looked like mainly great coaching playing the game the right way with a much worse bunch of players than the opponents.

The Blackpool game against us he impressed me too the way they knocked it about. They weren't coming here to fight for a point, they had a go for all 3. We maybe should have scored more first half and then maybe we win the game.

What impressed me most was how Critchley must have watched that first half and knew how to improve things.

We didn't really create anything and they created quite a few chances and eventually took one. I thought they had control in that 2nd half. 

10th in the league is a fantastic achievement so far.

Can you just imagine the uproar on here if we ever appointed someone like that?! Sometimes I think we're our own worst enemies....

[Davefevs]

38 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

The Blackpool game against us he impressed me too the way they knocked it about. They weren't coming here to fight for a point, they had a go for all 3. We maybe should have scored more first half and then maybe we win the game.

I don’t think they knocked it around well at all.  They struggled to break through our front-line press of Martin and Scott, with Palmer and Weimann stopping their full-backs.  They hit more long passes against us, than against any other team this season.  Maxwell was forced to kick 25 times, the most he had kicked long in over a year.

They might’ve been decent in the final 12-15 minutes, and since….but they weren’t against us….imho.

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Davefevs

[Offside]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

….and in the same interview, words to the affect of “stopping the root cause”, the initial pass with little pressure.  We’d not parked the bus at all this season.  The above quote would not lead me to think we were gonna park the bus tomorrow.

Do you have a source at the training ground….quite a few “IMOs”, which is like adding a to a post?  Nobody is gonna ask you who, but you post things like above, which you’ve taken from an interview yet imply in other posts you have some inside knowledge.  That’s fine if you do btw.

As above, we’ve yet to park the bus this season, and I honestly can’t remember when that has been our intention.

Not convinced Vyner is at fault.  It was him that chased a long ball into the bottom left wing corner, laying it to Bentley to clear to Gardner.

 

Gardner strides on, Atkinson starts to engage Vyner not in picture yet, having been in corner.

 

Gardner plays it wide, Atkinson marking him / closest to him Vyner now in shot with Kalas looking to mark Jutkiewicz and Hogan.

 

Graham shapes to cross Atkinson not checked his right shoulder, he’s basically lost Gardner.

 

Vyner realising Atkinson has got caught ball-watching tries to get across….too late

 

My analysis, if you want to blame a player….then it’s Atkinson.  But it definitely isn’t Vyner.

We cannot tell what comms have gone on, but I find it hard to believe that at any stage Atkinson has said “I’m passing Gardner on”….let alone to Vyner.

It also concerns me how far Dasilva is away from their player who puts the cross in. No pressure on the ball whatsoever. 

[Waconda]

25 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Yep. Lots wanted a big name, but I was never really that bothered in what people were describing a 'proven manager' - one that has won promotion to the prem.

Every job has its own unique challenges, so one challenge might be easier or more suited to one type of manager than the other.

Also the game has evolved. The managers/head coaches of today probably do things very differently to managers of years ago.

But I was happy enough with Nige, just didnt know what to expect.

The "big name" obsession with appointing managers and signing players is a problem for a "middling" club like ourselves.

Guilty of it myself at times.

[Davefevs]

30 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Yep. Lots wanted a big name, but I was never really that bothered in what people were describing a 'proven manager' - one that has won promotion to the prem.

Every job has its own unique challenges, so one challenge might be easier or more suited to one type of manager than the other.

Also the game has evolved. The managers/head coaches of today probably do things very differently to managers of years ago.

But I was happy enough with Nige, just didnt know what to expect.

3 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

The "big name" obsession with appointing managers and signing players is a problem for a "middling" club like ourselves.

Guilty of it myself at times.

With all these things “big name” does / might not equal “right person”.

FWIW with the situation we were in we needed someone who could take an overarching review of the club, understand the issues and build a plan to remediate.  I think we did well to get someone like Nigel Pearson in to perform that role.  That’s not to say that person is the right person to deliver the all of the plan nor necessarily through to the end.  All projects require different expertise at different times.  But we are still massively early in that rebuild and trying to do it on a shoestring.

Some of the “name” suggestions we’re so pie in the sky it was incredible.

 

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

 

Yeah they certainly struggled first half.

I guess what I mean is the intent to get it down and pass in their first championship game and away from home. Though yeah I do remember they went direct with the pace they had in forward areas and with our fairly intense pressing. I might have miss remembered it a bit but thought they were taking chances out the back too as that's what gave us the opportunities to press like we did.

yes, spot on. They tried to pass, we cut passing lanes out and they went long, lost the ball, etc, etc. I think they realised they had to try and break through the lines and that’s when we caught them.  I did laugh pre-game when the pros are suggesting they were long ball pre-game!!!

Interesting actually that Swansea also play it out a lot, probably more than anyone. And against us they also probably went more direct than usual as we pressed them first half. Maybe we were actually good at pressing back then?  Martin was super fit and maybe not so much now.

yes, I did a little video of our press that night. It was good in the first half.  They pushed Laird on second half, a gamble, but it worked.  More on this below.

I quite like a mix of playing it out and direct. Changing depending on game situation and opponents. We have been far too direct in our play. More recently it seems we are trying to pass the ball more but we look a bit out of practice as we haven't done it all season!

of late we have been too direct, agreed.  First half v Brum and Forest we passed it better, couldn’t go the distance though.

Plymouth are an example of a team that play it out but will also go long. Using runners up top rather than a big man. Not winning the first ball often but relying on 2nd balls. I really like how they play.

Blackpool certainly were not reluctant to go direct last season either up to Yates and Sims.

all teams will at some point, even Fulham, Bournemouth etc….it’s the way they do that matters.  Aimless punts is very different measured longer passes.

I thought second half we were really trying to score a 2nd but never really looked like scoring as Blackpool were the better side who had chances themselves. They had adapted to problems we were causing. It did worry me a bit seeing us struggle to create in that 2nd half.

I think they deserved that goal in the end as they had created chances before that and we looked uncomfortable.

It was another game where I felt bad decisions were made.

To play King and Martin up top at the end was poor. Weimann right midfield. Vyner had been hobbling for a while at right back and wasn't subbed. We looked vulnerable on that right side and they took advantage.

I remember Critchley on the touchline on that side of the pitch instructing one of the forwards pointing to come more to the left. It seemed he knew where we were weak and that's where the goal came from.

Who would have thought it would have got this bad for us though, and who would have thought they'd been 9 places ahead of us in November!

not me, but then again I didn’t think they were 1) that bad against us, they were well organised (unlike Peterborough) nor that 2) shouts of the worst team we will face at AG this season we’re a bit premature.

Comments embedded above.

Back to the WBs and Laird from above.

When our 442 faces a 352WB, if you can pin the WBs back you’ve won half the battle.  If you can’t then you either:

- accept that your own Wide Midfielders are gonna be pushed back or

- you let your fullbacks deal with them.

If you let your wide midfielders come deep to mark them, then they sit on top of your fullbacks and you can’t build out from the back.

If you let your fullbacks deal with them, of course you’re creating a risk, but you’re also creating opportunity.

In that match if Dasilva takes Laird and Simpson takes Bidwell, then Pring and Scott should have so much space to play in.  But you have to get them the ball, and they need to be smart not to play too high and wide (boy I’ve said that some times) so that they are in touch with our own midfield who with James and Massengo are up against a 2-2 - Grimes and Fulton / Paterson and Cullen.  We probably should’ve matched their “box” up or gone lopsided, but as we were chasing the game, I can see why we tried to play our MF4 in a line, because the space was behind their WBs.  Grimes got on the ball more and more.  Easy in hindsight though.

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I was probably unrealistic with Struber! I think you would have liked the pressing tactics had that been a realistic option.

In some respects yes.  I quite liked our press early this season too.

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Spot on.

I watched the highlights of wins at QPR & Reading in previous seasons you had Ashley Williams, Kalas, Baker all throwing themselves into challenges & blocks.

We need this from those in front of the defence too.

The 3rd goal at Birmingham was even worse, both Bakinson & HNM put in half hearted attempts to dispossess Gardner, a terrible effort.

Doesn't solve the problem though of being too deep- although good if you want that.

Ashley Williams especially with his age would never have been all that suited to a high line eg.

It's good, the commitment on display is great. However it only takes a side so far IMO, symptom of a deeper issue.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

On a general note, not got time to respond in depth but a quick observation/thought

3-5-2 vs 4-4-2

Yeah, the 2 vs 1 in wide areas is an undoubted advantage to the 4-4-2 side but then the 3-5-2 is an advantage in that zone to keep the ball away from the 4-4-2 side...perhaps even 4 v 2 if someone can step up from the back 3 into midfield- but there's definitely scope to pin opposition wingbacks back.

What is also interesting perhaps is 3-4-2-1 vs 4-4-2.

Then you theoretically can be matched on with wingbacks and wide attackers vs full backs and wingers and given that there is a spare man, someone can step into CM from the back 3 while still leaving 2 v 2 at the back.

Although the opposition- the 3-4-2-1 side- might leave their striker isolated up v 2 CBs.

Certainly occurs a lot more now than 10-15 years ago though, back then at this level 4-4-2 vs 4-4-2 was a lot more commonplace.

[GrahamC]

27 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Doesn't solve the problem though of being too deep- although good if you want that.

Ashley Williams especially with his age would never have been all that suited to a high line eg.

Fair comment.

I was never a defender so bow to the superior knowledge of those who were but my point was really about defending with more heart & desire, whether that is stopping crosses, making us far harder to play through or the stuff I had highlighted.

Although we gave the guy too much space for the first against Brum, the deflection off Kalas was unlucky, whereas the other two were woeful from us.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Fair comment.

I was never a defender so bow to the superior knowledge of those who were but my point was really about defending with more heart & desire, whether that is stopping crosses, making us far harder to play through or the stuff I had highlighted.

Although we gave the guy too much space for the first against Brum, the deflection off Kalas was unlucky, whereas the other two were woeful from us.

We definitely have to be harder to play against/through agreed. Suppose it's better than what we have now.

Maybe we can build a base from that starting point. Hopefully the defending would start from the front, the midfield sit, drop or press? Hard one but get close to the opposition either way!

On a general note, certainly agree with you on Vyner. Think he is a good utility player and gets some unfair flak- him sitting between the defence and midfield tomorrow might be one way to go if the injuries to midfield still as they have been.

Perhaps the strikers drop off a bit and screen rather than press although Weimann can press of course.

[Davefevs]

35 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Russell Martin had only been in the job 2 weeks and only had 5 sessions with his players and working on a whole new philosophy and way of playing before our fixture. And with injuries too. No preseason with the players. Us pressing them and causing them problems at that stage in those circumstances was probably a lot different to trying to do the same now.

 

I’m not sure it was a whole new philosophy?  Wingback system, Grimes the focal point of building passing moves, available to receive passes, etc. Pretty similar to Cooper!  Bit more emphasis on play from the keeper perhaps, but not a whole new philosophy, he already had a team that liked to pass it.  It was still a decent squad, foundations built on PP money over a few years.

He has done well though.

[The Constant Rabbit]

I'd bite anyones hand off for a point and a committed showing.

 

4-4-1-1

Solid back 4 as possible

Massengo hopefully fit for this. Defensive midfield 4. Williams a chance to return. James unlikely.

Palmer as the 1

Wells central as solo forward to latch onto through balls.

 

I'd drop Martin and Weimann

 

OPTIMAL

Bentley

Tanner  Kalas Baker  Pring

Massengo Williams James  Dasilva

Palmer

Wells

Subs: O'Leary, Vyner, Bakinson  Pearson  Martin,  Conway, Simpson

 

 

LIKELY

Bentley

Tanner Kalas Atkinson Pring

Massengo Bakinson Pearson DaSilva

Palmer

Wells

 

Subs: O'Leary, Vyner,  Martin, Scott, Conway, Simpson, Benarous 

 

This is where we are as a club. People slating Nige should just look at the squad we have. Staying up would be a great achievement.

[Davefevs]

[Rocking Red Cyril]

13 hours ago, Rossi the Robin said:

I’d have Palmer in there instead of Bakinson, if his heads right will put some challenges in

Cant say I really like those 2 trios anyhow, a bit scary and light 

Yes And i feel Palmer A much better source of the ball Wells is looking for because he will not keep blasting them over the bar 

[Murraysrightplum]

The bus or Coach 1?

[Waconda]

1 hour ago, Murraysrightplum said:

The bus or Coach 1?

Both

[Waconda]

                                              Bentley

                     Tanner     Kalas     Atkinson     DaSilva

                Massengo     Williams      Bakinson     Pring

                                     Weimann

                                                      Martin

 

Is my prediction.

[Bodiesaffer]

18 hours ago, Davefevs said:

….and in the same interview, words to the affect of “stopping the root cause”, the initial pass with little pressure.  We’d not parked the bus at all this season.  The above quote would not lead me to think we were gonna park the bus tomorrow.

Do you have a source at the training ground….quite a few “IMOs”, which is like adding a to a post?  Nobody is gonna ask you who, but you post things like above, which you’ve taken from an interview yet imply in other posts you have some inside knowledge.  That’s fine if you do btw.

As above, we’ve yet to park the bus this season, and I honestly can’t remember when that has been our intention.

Not convinced Vyner is at fault.  It was him that chased a long ball into the bottom left wing corner, laying it to Bentley to clear to Gardner.

 

Gardner strides on, Atkinson starts to engage Vyner not in picture yet, having been in corner.

 

Gardner plays it wide, Atkinson marking him / closest to him Vyner now in shot with Kalas looking to mark Jutkiewicz and Hogan.

 

Graham shapes to cross Atkinson not checked his right shoulder, he’s basically lost Gardner.

 

Vyner realising Atkinson has got caught ball-watching tries to get across….too late

 

My analysis, if you want to blame a player….then it’s Atkinson.  But it definitely isn’t Vyner.

We cannot tell what comms have gone on, but I find it hard to believe that at any stage Atkinson has said “I’m passing Gardner on”….let alone to Vyner.

Now looking at the clips,  why didn’t AW track back to stop the cross, allowing JD to stay tucked in. The problem came from the cross.  AW should of busted a gut to put pressure on the man wide, where the ball was always going.  Yes we lost it in midfield, we should of chopped him down and took a yellow would of been the answer in the 1st instance.  Defensive cover is something we’ve not got ATM. 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Bodiesaffer said:

Now looking at the clips,  why didn’t AW track back to stop the cross, allowing JD to stay tucked in. The problem came from the cross.  AW should of busted a gut to put pressure on the man wide, where the ball was always going.  Yes we lost it in midfield, we should of chopped him down and took a yellow would of been the answer in the 1st instance.  Defensive cover is something we’ve not got ATM. 

Not sure he’d have got there, but your point stands.  We allow our FBs to be left 1-on-1 far too often. Any singer worth his salt will fancy getting some joy if he’s constantly allowed to face up his full back.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, VT05763 said:

                                              Bentley

                     Tanner     Kalas     Atkinson     DaSilva

                Massengo     Williams      Bakinson     Pring

                                     Weimann

                                                      Martin

 

Is my prediction.

Williams being back would be a real bonus but I worry yet again about if it's today, tne, two games back...

...Then break down again!!

Can we afford to play Martin from the start for a 17th out of 17? I'm inclined to say no, International break coming up or not.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 hours ago, The Constant Rabbit said:

I'd bite anyones hand off for a point and a committed showing.

 

4-4-1-1

Solid back 4 as possible

Massengo hopefully fit for this. Defensive midfield 4. Williams a chance to return. James unlikely.

Palmer as the 1

Wells central as solo forward to latch onto through balls.

 

I'd drop Martin and Weimann

 

OPTIMAL

Bentley

Tanner  Kalas Baker  Pring

Massengo Williams James  Dasilva

Palmer

Wells

Subs: O'Leary, Vyner, Bakinson  Pearson  Martin,  Conway, Simpson

 

 

LIKELY

Bentley

Tanner Kalas Atkinson Pring

Massengo Bakinson Pearson DaSilva

Palmer

Wells

 

Subs: O'Leary, Vyner,  Martin, Scott, Conway, Simpson, Benarous 

 

This is where we are as a club. People slating Nige should just look at the squad we have. Staying up would be a great achievement.

Interesting side and definitely agree with the principle of a fairly solid 4-4-1-1. Point would also be a decent return, agreed.

Dropping Weimann though? Martin I can understand as I fear we might play him into ground, Weimann is our top scorer though.

Baker, James, Williams being back would be excellent, question how fit they are though.

I'm not quite as pessimistic about the squad though. When all fit I certainly don't think we should be going down. Key caveat there though is when all fit- we've not been able to field for a full game, James-Williams-Massengo in a nice tight CM 3. Not once this season.

King first reserve, aging now injured. Semenyo something different, Baker bit of physicality and ability to play a more natural fit for a narrower left side but well injured eh.

Still really behind NP but not that concerned about the drop, injury permitting.

[Simon79]

21 hours ago, Davefevs said:

….and in the same interview, words to the affect of “stopping the root cause”, the initial pass with little pressure.  We’d not parked the bus at all this season.  The above quote would not lead me to think we were gonna park the bus tomorrow.

Do you have a source at the training ground….quite a few “IMOs”, which is like adding a to a post?  Nobody is gonna ask you who, but you post things like above, which you’ve taken from an interview yet imply in other posts you have some inside knowledge.  That’s fine if you do btw.

As above, we’ve yet to park the bus this season, and I honestly can’t remember when that has been our intention.

Not convinced Vyner is at fault.  It was him that chased a long ball into the bottom left wing corner, laying it to Bentley to clear to Gardner.

 

Gardner strides on, Atkinson starts to engage Vyner not in picture yet, having been in corner.

 

Gardner plays it wide, Atkinson marking him / closest to him Vyner now in shot with Kalas looking to mark Jutkiewicz and Hogan.

 

Graham shapes to cross Atkinson not checked his right shoulder, he’s basically lost Gardner.

 

Vyner realising Atkinson has got caught ball-watching tries to get across….too late

 

My analysis, if you want to blame a player….then it’s Atkinson.  But it definitely isn’t Vyner.

We cannot tell what comms have gone on, but I find it hard to believe that at any stage Atkinson has said “I’m passing Gardner on”….let alone to Vyner.

Have just caught this post, but IMO you’re totally correct in that Gardner has ran off Atkinsons shoulder & all Vyner can do is try to close the space, which he never was going to. Noticed it on the night but after yet another dismal performance, I couldn’t be bothered to put my two penneth in. COYR 

[Davefevs]

24 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Williams being back would be a real bonus but I worry yet again about if it's today, tne, two games back...

...Then break down again!!

Can we afford to play Martin from the start for a 17th out of 17? I'm inclined to say no, International break coming up or not.

Assuming James doesn’t make it I’d be inclined to play Vyner and just tell him - “your role is to screen our two CBs, nothing else”.  When he gets it the ball, give it to a red shirt and make sure you are back screening the CBs.

How we play in front of that probably has a bit more license, because they know that Vyner is always at “home” protecting them.

Weimann | Massengo | Scott | O’Dowda (going all 4141 18/19)

I have no issues with Martin starting as long as we consider subbing him 60-65 in….it really is the last third of the game where he struggles most.

I wouldn’t be against Simpson at RB either, but I think Tanner keeps his place.  Pring at LB.

[Waconda]

Parking the whose to blame argument for a moment it is probably fair to say that everyone agrees that what we have been doing is not working and things need to change.

We possess (are stuck with) the squad we have and need to get the best out of them if we are to stay out of the bottom 3.

Not a fan of the "system to suit the players" method myself but sadly I think we find ourselves in the situation where that is the only option.

 

                                                Bentley

                                 Kalas     Atkinson     Baker

                   Tanner                                                 Pring

                             James/Williams     Massengo

                                                  Palmer

                              Wells/Weimann     Semenyo

 

Injuries allowing obviously but  this formation with a more possession based, attacking through the lines game plan. Allowing the players to play with freedom and take risks with the ball. 

Total reset required for me.

 

[The Bard]

 

Looking forward to Sunday. Might see a decent game of football for a change.

Agree with Bentley in goal.  Palmer has to start in midfield, but I'd have her play deeper.

Who are these other girls?

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

Not meaning to be flippant but formation and starting 11 mean nothing if they don't follow instructions , ball watch and stand off.

The starting 11 should be those who are up for the fight and proud to wear the shirt and I'm really sad to say that I cant pick 11 players who qualify.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, The Bard said:

 

Looking forward to Sunday. Might see a decent game of football for a change.

Agree with Bentley in goal.  Palmer has to start in midfield, but I'd have her play deeper.

Who are these other girls?

Is she fit enough, she missed Monday?

Murray and Aspin building a string CB partnership.

[Hampshire reds]

who will be in charge of the team for Blackburn. surely steve could inform the fans or have i missed something.