Out of contract players

[Jerseybean]

Bristol City have 23 players out of contract over the next 18 months, including Han-Noah Massengo, Tomas Kalas and Dan Bentley, what’s the full picture look like?

Davefevs the stage is yours…

[ExiledAjax]

Given the prevailing narrative regarding the competency of the players, one would think that most would see this as a good opportunity to prune yet more of the squad.

I don't think that will apply to the 3 players that you name here, all of whom should have considerable value in the market.

However, perhaps some others can be allowed to drift onwards?

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

23 minutes ago, Jerseybean said:

Bristol City have 23 players out of contract over the next 18 months, including Han-Noah Massengo, Tomas Kalas and Dan Bentley, what’s the full picture look like?

Davefevs the stage is yours…

They will all be offered new deals in my opinion.  I think there are a few that will see the door. 

[And Its Smith]

Either they sign by 1st July or we need to sell. Cannot afford for anyone to run their contract down again.  Guess it will depend what division we are in next season and how the market continues to go now that fans are back.  Would Kalas get the money he is on here elsewhere for example.  If Massengo has ambition, which I assume he has, he will leave to join a better run club that also has its team playing to a style that suits him 

Edited November 11, 2021 by And Its Smith

[Fordy62]

5 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Either they sign by 1st July or we need to sell. Cannot afford for anyone to run their contract down again.  Guess it will depend what division we are in next season and how the market continues to go now that fans are back.  Would Kalas get the money he is on here elsewhere for example.  If Massengo has ambition, which I assume he has, he will leave to join a better run club that also has its team playing to a style that suits him 

Of I were any of them, I’m not sure I’d be signing. And that’s really bad for us. 

[Merrick's Marvels]

27 minutes ago, Jerseybean said:

Bristol City have 23 players out of contract over the next 18 months, including Han-Noah Massengo, Tomas Kalas and Dan Bentley, what’s the full picture look like?

Davefevs the stage is yours…

Imo, FFP constraints - and the need to create room for meaningful incomings - will see at least one of those sold.

And if - in 18 months time - we've achieved the necessary overhaul of the squad and stayed in this division and still have Pearson at the helm, I'll be delighted and amazed in equal measure.  

[And Its Smith]

14 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Of I were any of them, I’m not sure I’d be signing. And that’s really bad for us. 

We are so close to my dream of league one and an average age squad of 20 ! 

[CyderInACan]

Maybe treading on forbidden lawns here, but is Bentley part of the problem rather than the solution? 

[RedRoss]

2 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

Maybe treading on forbidden lawns here, but is Bentley part of the problem rather than the solution? 

Why do you think that?

[Hampshire reds]

i would think the out of contract players will want to know the situation concening Nigel. With rumours about his health. will he be back everything seems up in   the air.

[Dunc]

45 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

Maybe treading on forbidden lawns here, but is Bentley part of the problem rather than the solution? 

No... imho from a playing and leadership perspective I think he's fantastic. Can we afford to pay those kinds of wages? If that's the question it's a question for Mr Lansdown, but it appears the direction of travel is towards cheaper players 

[Bris Red]

54 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

Maybe treading on forbidden lawns here, but is Bentley part of the problem rather than the solution? 

He certainly isn’t the fantastic goalkeeper many on here make him out to be I don’t think, i wouldn’t say he is part of the problem per se but if there is opportunity to cash in on him and get a few million i think we should without hesitation to be honest.

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, CyderInACan said:

Maybe treading on forbidden lawns here, but is Bentley part of the problem rather than the solution? 

I don't think he is either. He's conceding goals at an alarming rate, and has only 1 clean sheet to his name this season, but if we look at the stats he's still maintaining a 70% save rate, which gets him in to the top 10 goalies in the division on that metric (9th out of those who have played at least 10 games), having faced the second highest number of shots on target (81). Of those who have played every minute of the league campaign, only Collins at Barnsley has a better save rate, and it's better than Bentley's by only 0.5%.

Compared to his own past performances 70% is far from his best season (that being 77% in 2013/14 with Southend), but it equals his best Bristol City season average - that he set last season.

He's a very solid Championship keeper. Does that mean we should keep him at all costs? In my opinion no. He's not only solid, but he's also replaceable. 

Again, just focussing on save % - Southwood, Roos, Collins and Ingram are at relegation threatened Reading, Derby, Barnsley and Hull respectively. All have a higher save % than Bentley this season, and if their teams are relegated then all could be available in the summer if we need a replacement.

Edited November 11, 2021 by ExiledAjax

[The Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, CyderInACan said:

Maybe treading on forbidden lawns here, but is Bentley part of the problem rather than the solution? 

I think so, and I appreciate it is not a popular opinion. 

His main problem is that he does not command his area. Commanding the box gives huge confidence to the defenders in front of you and I think this is partly why our defence often sits so deep. He is also not the incredible shot stopper he is lauded as being on here. 

[Loco Rojo]

1 hour ago, And Its Smith said:

Either they sign by 1st July or we need to sell. Cannot afford for anyone to run their contract down again.  Guess it will depend what division we are in next season and how the market continues to go now that fans are back.  Would Kalas get the money he is on here elsewhere for example.  If Massengo has ambition, which I assume he has, he will leave to join a better run club that also has its team playing to a style that suits him 

No ones going to buy the ones we're willing to sell (possibly due to wage demands, how attractive they look to other teams given our current situation and the view mention about the state of the transfer market) and the players themselves would be in a better position to let their contracts run down (assuming we don't offer them deals).

I think most if not all of those we don't want to keep will leve for nothing.

[LondonBristolian]

1 hour ago, CyderInACan said:

Maybe treading on forbidden lawns here, but is Bentley part of the problem rather than the solution? 

I’m wondering about Kalas. Very good defender but - partnership with Webster aside - he has rarely been part of a solid defensive unit. I think he is a good player but imagine he is on a hefty wage and am open minded as to whether he is value for money on that.

[Grey Fox]

2 hours ago, Jerseybean said:

Bristol City have 23 players out of contract over the next 18 months, including Han-Noah Massengo, Tomas Kalas and Dan Bentley, what’s the full picture look like?

Davefevs the stage is yours…

Get rid of the lot of them, bunch of bottlers

[Rob k]

I look at our whole team and wonder who we are getting any money for? 
I don’t believe we are getting much for any of the 3 mentioned above 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I’m wondering about Kalas. Very good defender but - partnership with Webster aside - he has rarely been part of a solid defensive unit. I think he is a good player but imagine he is on a hefty wage and am open minded as to whether he is value for money on that.

I posed that question recently, could you cash in on Kalas, get his £3m p.a. off the cost base (£2m amortisation / £1m wages) and use that more efficiently?  In January his value in the books will be £3m, so if you could get £5m for him, that helps, plus no more wages.  Baker and Atkinson, plus a cost-effective recruit (loan maybe) making up the three first choice CBs with money to spare.

As for general contract renewals:

Younger players on sensible wages, yes, you probably could improve their terms.

But you aren’t gonna exercise O’Dowda’s option, nor are you likely to re-contract Kalas or Bentley at improved terms, you’d be looking to bring them down (imho). For O’Dowda to stay he’s gonna have to do a Weimann and take a wage drop.   Which leads to a concern that you can’t even wait til next summer, you need to move them on in January.  That’s a big gamble in our current position.

Recruitment “collective” need to have a stellar January if that’s the case.

Other clubs will be looking to offload due to inability to get existing players to re-contract too…it won’t just be us, so there’s some hope.

Derby’s administrators might also be looking to get rid of players too.

Its a really uncertain time.  I suspect Nige wanted it to be a quiet January, but I suspect it’s gonna be anything but.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Rob k said:

I look at our whole team and wonder who we are getting any money for? 
I don’t believe we are getting much for any of the 3 mentioned above 

I think a promo-chasing club might have a look at Kalas, or even European teams.

[The Original OTIB]

16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think a promo-chasing club might have a look at Kalas, or even European teams.

Maybe Hearts will buy Moore... on another note, this is interesting:

consistent and straightforward instructions from coaching staff help Hearts players whenever they are asked to play in an unfamiliar role. He cited Moore as an example.

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/taylor-moore-emerges-as-new-option-in-key-position-for-hearts-3450729

 

[Merrick's Marvels]

50 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I’m wondering about Kalas. Very good defender but - partnership with Webster aside - he has rarely been part of a solid defensive unit. I think he is a good player but imagine he is on a hefty wage and am open minded as to whether he is value for money on that.

When you see Atkinson playing competently alongside him you begin to wonder what exactly is the value for money we're getting out of Kalas

I agree with you - I think he's an excellent defender. At times in the last 18 months he's absolutely bust a gut for our club. So this isn't about him as an individual - this is about how we've got ourselves in such a financial pickle.

Cut to the chase - Bristol City can't afford £8 million quid defenders on sky high wages. We got ahead of ourselves with expenditure on that scale - or rather Ashton did, thinking he was a big time charlie. Not just expenditure on Kalas but several others too.   

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Merrick's Marvels

[GrahamC]

1 minute ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

When you see Atkinson playing competently alongside him you begin to wonder what exactly is the value for money we're getting out of Kalas

I agree with you - I think he's an excellent defender. At times in the last 18 months he's absolutely bust a gut for our club. So this isn't about him as an individual - this is about how we've got ourselves in such a financial pickle.

Cut to the chase - Bristol City can't afford £8 million quid defenders on sky high wages. We got ahead of ourselves with expenditure on that scale - or rather Ashton did, thinking he was a big time charlie. Not just expenditure on Kalas but several others too.   

To be fair to Kalas though the context here was that we signed him permanently at around the same time as we sold Webster for a club record £20m & with no indication of any likely pandemic to decimate income or the transfer market.

I would argue that he isn’t the problem, we have struggled to extract value from loads of signings in recent years & as this summer’s Euros showed, he is plenty good enough but many of his team mates (past & present) are not.

[Merrick's Marvels]

36 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

But you aren’t gonna exercise O’Dowda’s option, nor are you likely to re-contract Kalas or Bentley at improved terms, you’d be looking to bring them down (imho). For O’Dowda to stay he’s gonna have to do a Weimann and take a wage drop.   Which leads to a concern that you can’t even wait til next summer, you need to move them on in January.  That’s a big gamble in our current position.

 

If anyone - anyone - offers O'Dowda new terms I'll personally hunt them down.

[Dredd]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

I don't think he is either. He's conceding goals at an alarming rate, and has only 1 clean sheet to his name this season, but if we look at the stats he's still maintaining a 70% save rate, which gets him in to the top 10 goalies in the division on that metric (9th out of those who have played at least 10 games), having faced the second highest number of shots on target (81). Of those who have played every minute of the league campaign, only Collins at Barnsley has a better save rate, and it's better than Bentley's by only 0.5%.

Compared to his own past performances 70% is far from his best season (that being 77% in 2013/14 with Southend), but it equals his best Bristol City season average - that he set last season.

He's a very solid Championship keeper. Does that mean we should keep him at all costs? In my opinion no. He's not only solid, but he's also replaceable. 

Again, just focussing on save % - Southwood, Roos, Collins and Ingram are at relegation threatened Reading, Derby, Barnsley and Hull respectively. All have a higher save % than Bentley this season, and if their teams are relegated then all could be available in the summer if we need a replacement.

Save rate sounds like one of those stats that sounds great but if he’s making mistakes that leads to goals then it doesn’t mean much

[LondonBristolian]

6 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

To be fair to Kalas though the context here was that we signed him permanently at around the same time as we sold Webster for a club record £20m & with no indication of any likely pandemic to decimate income or the transfer market.

I would argue that he isn’t the problem, we have struggled to extract value from loads of signings in recent years & as this summer’s Euros showed, he is plenty good enough but many of his team mates (past & present) are not.

I don't think Kalas is any sense the problem. But I do think, if you compare Kalas & Atkinson as a pairing to Baker & Atkinson as a pairing, the difference in quality between the two partnerships isn't anywhere near as great as what I suspect the difference in combined wages for the pairing is. For me, it's not that I want to lose Kalas or think the signing was a terrible mistake but - given we are now feeling the after-effects of a pandemic and that finances will likely be hit for some time - it is really hard to justify a case to extend his contract on the same or higher wages, even if the alternative was losing our record signing for nothing. 

Edited November 11, 2021 by LondonBristolian

[RobintheRed Red]

1 hour ago, bris red said:

He certainly isn’t the fantastic goalkeeper many on here make him out to be I don’t think, i wouldn’t say he is part of the problem per se but if there is opportunity to cash in on him and get a few million i think we should without hesitation to be honest.

Yes good shot stopper but got this palmino out thing and not the best on crosses zhats why big clubs havent come in

 

[RobintheRed Red]

Just now, RobintheRed Red said:

Yes good shot stopper but got this palming out thing and not the best on crosses thats why big clubs havent come in

 

 

[Merrick's Marvels]

9 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

To be fair to Kalas though the context here was that we signed him permanently at around the same time as we sold Webster for a club record £20m & with no indication of any likely pandemic to decimate income or the transfer market.

I would argue that he isn’t the problem, we have struggled to extract value from loads of signings in recent years & as this summer’s Euros showed, he is plenty good enough but many of his team mates (past & present) are not.

I would still argue there's absolutely no need for BCFC to be signing expensive defenders from the likes of Chelsea when there are plenty of alternatives capable of playing Championship football at a much cheaper cost.

Atkinson is just the latest example of the quality to be found lower down - if you care to look. Ashton didn't. Sheffield Utd went to the Prem on L1 centre halves. Cardiff have blokes from Plymouth. Flint did perfectly well for us. And so on, tons of examples out there. 

I don't mind splashing the cash on a quality striker. But to my mind, defenders are not where we should be pushing the boat out - because there's no need to.  

Edited November 11, 2021 by Merrick's Marvels

[JoeAman08]

Think it is a tricky situation as pretty much everyone OOC in the next 18 months will be on pre covid wages. So how do those negotiations go? 
 

I think we are in dreamland a bit if we think we can convince Massengo today. Not ever seen much emotion from him before but last few games he has been visibly frustrated. Can’t say that I really blame him either to be honest.

We need to be honest about the situation and weigh up the pro and cons of perhaps selling in January. I’d say same goes for Kalas and Bentley. Then we need to be honest about the valuation of players like Dasilva, Palmer and O’Dowda. We may need to take some kind of loss on them at some point which will hurt but hopefully quicken up the rebuild process. 

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I don't think Kalas is any sense the problem. But I do think, if you compare Kalas & Atkinson as a pairing to Baker & Atkinson as a pairing, the difference in quality between the two partnerships isn't anywhere near as great as what I suspect the difference in combined wages for the pairing is. For me, it's not that I want to lose Kalas or think the signing was a terrible mistake but - given we are now feeling the after-effects of a pandemic and that finances will likely be hit for some time - it is really hard to justify a case to extend his contract on the same or higher wages, even if the alternative was losing our record signing for nothing. 

 

4 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

I would still argue there's absolutely no need for BCFC to be signing expensive defenders from the likes of Chelsea when there are plenty of alternatives capable of playing Championship football at a much cheaper cost.

Atkinson is just the latest example of the quality to be found lower down - if you care to look. Ashton didn't. Sheffield Utd went to the Prem on L1 centre halves. Cardiff have blokes from Plymouth. Flint did perfectly well for us. And so on, tons of examples out there. 

I don't mind splashing the cash on a quality striker. But to my mind, defenders are not where we should be pushing the boat out - because there's no need to.  

Good posts both.

Its a case of falling into line with the financial climate isn’t it.  Graham is right about the context of when we bought Kalas, but the world is now different.  We saw last season, both at the start when Eliasson was sold for c£2m and at the end when Diedhiou went for £0, that we can no longer think in terms of what they cost when we bought them, but now we must think more (paraphrase Richard Gould) how do we get the best out of every pound we spend.  How can we sell a player to generate the leverage to buy a “better” player.

In some cases, perverse as it seems, we might need to make a loss on “transfer profit” (part of FFP) to turn a small gain in no longer paying wages, e.g. Nagy.

Suspect the CEO, Chief Finance Officer and Nige (if / when he’s back) will be having some very frank discussions.

[The Original OTIB]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

Good posts both.

Its a case of falling into line with the financial climate isn’t it.  Graham is right about the context of when we bought Kalas, but the world is now different.  We saw last season, both at the start when Eliasson was sold for c£2m and at the end when Diedhiou went for £0, that we can no longer think in terms of what they cost when we bought them, but now we must think more (paraphrase Richard Gould) how do we get the best out of every pound we spend.  How can we sell a player to generate the leverage to buy a “better” player.

In some cases, perverse as it seems, we might need to make a loss on “transfer profit” (part of FFP) to turn a small gain in no longer paying wages, e.g. Nagy.

Suspect the CEO, Chief Finance Officer and Nige (if / when he’s back) will be having some very frank discussions.

With Czech money into West Ham, I could see them come in for Kalas. They have a small squad, are stretched what with the Europa League, Kalas plays alongside Coufal for the national team, Ogbonna, and to a lesser extent Dawson, are getting on a bit, cover relatively young.

[glynriley]

3 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

With Czech money into West Ham, I could see them come in for Kalas. They have a small squad, are stretched what with the Europa League, Kalas plays alongside Coufal for the national team, Ogbonna, and to a lesser extent Dawson, are getting on a bit, cover relatively young.

He's done his ACL as well.

Go on Moysie, chuck us a few quid for old times sake...

Edited November 11, 2021 by glynriley

[GrahamC]

28 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I don't think Kalas is any sense the problem. But I do think, if you compare Kalas & Atkinson as a pairing to Baker & Atkinson as a pairing, the difference in quality between the two partnerships isn't anywhere near as great as what I suspect the difference in combined wages for the pairing is. For me, it's not that I want to lose Kalas or think the signing was a terrible mistake but - given we are now feeling the after-effects of a pandemic and that finances will likely be hit for some time - it is really hard to justify a case to extend his contract on the same or higher wages, even if the alternative was losing our record signing for nothing. 

Probably all the case, but I was reflecting earlier on our pitiful defensive record this season, which is of course not for a minute to say it is all down to the back four, but alongside Kalas the most selected RB, LB & CB so far this season are Tanner, Pring & Atkinson who hadn’t ever played a single minute of Championship football between them prior to August.

We simply don’t have the blend right, a player who played in the Euro semi final (& is on as you say comparative fortunes) & 3 blokes we signed from Carlisle, Oxford & someone who struggled last year to get game time on loan at Pompey.

As for Baker the wage disparity to Kalas wasn’t that much prior to this summer, I expect.

[LondonBristolian]

23 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

I would still argue there's absolutely no need for BCFC to be signing expensive defenders from the likes of Chelsea when there are plenty of alternatives capable of playing Championship football at a much cheaper cost.

Atkinson is just the latest example of the quality to be found lower down - if you care to look. Ashton didn't. Sheffield Utd went to the Prem on L1 centre halves. Cardiff have blokes from Plymouth. Flint did perfectly well for us. And so on, tons of examples out there. 

I don't mind splashing the cash on a quality striker. But to my mind, defenders are not where we should be pushing the boat out - because there's no need to.  

I think the context is important too.

Spending £8 million on a defender to make a statement of intent towards promotion makes no sense at all when

a) we flogged his defensive partner at almost the last minute and could not get a replacement in

b) we flogged a key midfielder at the even more last minute and signed two very different midfielders and then had no balance in the team

c) we spent the summer arseing around failing to sign a striker and then scrambled at the absolute last second for someone with an unlucky injury record who got an unlucky injury.

d) we flogged our key midfielder in the January transfer window and failed to replace him with a loan from Hull

 

I get some of the above could not be foreseen. There was guarantee Nketiah was coming and there was always a risk we might get offers for Webster and Brownhill but nonetheless it is really hard to justify signing a defender for £8 million as part of a sustained bid for promotion if every other action the club took contradicted the idea it was a sustained bid for promotion 

[ExiledAjax]

34 minutes ago, Dredd said:

Save rate sounds like one of those stats that sounds great but if he’s making mistakes that leads to goals then it doesn’t mean much

It's testing one single quality, and it doesn't tell the the story.

Goalkeeper is, in my opinion, the toughest position to apply stats to. How do you measure communication? Or control of the box? Or other things that are crucial for a good goalie.

Even weighting save % for shots on target is poor. Ideally we at least want to be weighting for xG faced rather than simple shots on target.

There was a very good article a few years back that talked about how goalies were hugely undervalued in the market when you considered how many points they earned you over a season.

[Parkwaymom]

Communication and teamwork seems to be a weakness in most of our senior players. Maybe good humans don’t tell each other what to do, but it’s hard for our team to become more than the sum of it’s parts unless several players are capable of doing that at the appropriate time. 

[Sleepy1968]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

But you aren’t gonna exercise O’Dowda’s option, nor are you likely to re-contract Kalas or Bentley at improved terms, you’d be looking to bring them down (imho). For O’Dowda to stay he’s gonna have to do a Weimann and take a wage drop.   Which leads to a concern that you can’t even wait til next summer, you need to move them on in January.  That’s a big gamble in our current position.

Recruitment “collective” need to have a stellar January if that’s the case.

More headaches. If we had a good recruitment team I'd be much happier - they'd already have identified a list of replacements. As it stands, I can see this being the recruitment tool of choice:

 

[maxjak]

57 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

If anyone - anyone - offers O'Dowda new terms I'll personally hunt them down.

Nimes are currently 13th in Ligue 2 of French footie........which is in comparative terms even lower than where we are!!    Can we please swap O' Dowda  for our lost prodigal son.................Nicholas Elliason.  I know it is just far fetched wishful thinking, but I would love to see him back?

[Bodiesaffer]

9 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Nimes are currently 13th in Ligue 2 of French footie........which is in comparative terms even lower than where we are!!    Can we please swap O' Dowda  for our lost prodigal son.................Nicholas Elliason.  I know it is just far fetched wishful thinking, but I would love to see him back?

I wish, Now he would of been a NP player 

[Davefevs]

31 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

It's testing one single quality, and it doesn't tell the the story.

Goalkeeper is, in my opinion, the toughest position to apply stats to. How do you measure communication? Or control of the box? Or other things that are crucial for a good goalie.

Even weighting save % for shots on target is poor. Ideally we at least want to be weighting for xG faced rather than simple shots on target.

There was a very good article a few years back that talked about how goalies were hugely undervalued in the market when you considered how many points they earned you over a season.

Yep, I rarely look at keeper stats.  There are some basic stuff like passes, long, short, do they punch or catch, but saves is really difficult to quantify.

Last season Bents ranked below average across a combined set of attributes, which seemed “wrong”.  But the 6-0 at Watford skewed a lot if his numbers.

Keepers are more an eye-test for me.

18 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I rate a lot of our players but there isn't many I wouldn't sell.

Kalas is top quality at this level imo. Premier League? Well he has it all to do a decent enough job at that level imo. 

Him and Bentley I don't see how we could replace with better. But it doesn't mean we can't become stronger if we replace them with decent players and then make ourselves stronger in other areas.

 

Boooooooom

[Merrick's Marvels]

42 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think the context is important too.

Spending £8 million on a defender to make a statement of intent towards promotion makes no sense at all when

a) we flogged his defensive partner at almost the last minute and could not get a replacement in

b) we flogged a key midfielder at the even more last minute and signed two very different midfielders and then had no balance in the team

c) we spent the summer arseing around failing to sign a striker and then scrambled at the absolute last second for someone with an unlucky injury record who got an unlucky injury.

d) we flogged our key midfielder in the January transfer window and failed to replace him with a loan from Hull

One heck of a summer, that one. 

We can now see that's when we began to falter and, since then, have been going backwards at a rate of knots. 

Hats off to all those responsible.  

Edited November 11, 2021 by Merrick's Marvels

[sh1t_ref_again]

As things have turned out Ashtons shopping trips to Knightsbridge have not worked out well

Kallas, generally a good solid defender, but surprising how many times he gets out jumped and does not appear to be a good communicator / organiser, for 8m and high wages, would be happy to get back what we can and reduce wage bill

Palmer - No manager seems to want to play him, can be great when he is up for it, although i think his home and heart are still in Swansea, need to get what we can for and move on, looks like we have better options in Scott and other youngsters

DaSilva - originally looked a great buy, but since injuries has never recovered his pace which use to make up a bit for his lack of height (which I think is a real problem for a defender), but now way behind Pring at LB - so need to get rid

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

One heck of a summer, that one. 

We can now see that's when we began to falter and, since then, have been going backwards at a rate of knots. 

Hats off to all those responsible.  

Boy, wasn’t it.

Sell Webster, sign Kalas

Sell Kelly, sign Dasilva (and Rowe)

Sell Pack, sign Nagy (and Massengo)

Release Fielding, sign Bentley (and Gilmartin)

So, I got the logic of the main replacements, but we then also added Palmer, Szmodics (Paterson loaned out), Williams, Pereira, Afobe, Rodrigo.

We loaned out players at the expense of this additional incomings.

January we sold Brownhill, replaced with Wells, Benkovic and Henriksen.

We over-recruited.

[sh1t_ref_again]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Boy, wasn’t it.

Sell Webster, sign Kalas

Sell Kelly, sign Dasilva (and Rowe)

Sell Pack, sign Nagy (and Massengo)

Release Fielding, sign Bentley (and Gilmartin)

So, I got the logic of the main replacements, but we then also added Palmer, Szmodics (Paterson loaned out), Williams, Pereira, Afobe, Rodrigo.

We loaned out players at the expense of this additional incomings.

January we sold Brownhill, replaced with Wells, Benkovic and Henriksen.

We over-recruited.

I see you have Pack as 734K, but reported at time as £4m?

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

I see you have Pack as 734K, but reported at time as £4m?

That’s transfermarkt website…..not my data.  I had at £4m.

[ExiledAjax]

39 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, I rarely look at keeper stats.  There are some basic stuff like passes, long, short, do they punch or catch, but saves is really difficult to quantify.

Last season Bents ranked below average across a combined set of attributes, which seemed “wrong”.  But the 6-0 at Watford skewed a lot if his numbers.

Keepers are more an eye-test for me.

I was just trying to make the point that Bentley is a good, but not exceptional keeper, and that I think we could very feasibly replace him should we need to cash in on him.

[GrahamC]

40 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Boy, wasn’t it.

Sell Webster, sign Kalas

Sell Kelly, sign Dasilva (and Rowe)

Sell Pack, sign Nagy (and Massengo)

Release Fielding, sign Bentley (and Gilmartin)

So, I got the logic of the main replacements, but we then also added Palmer, Szmodics (Paterson loaned out), Williams, Pereira, Afobe, Rodrigo.

We loaned out players at the expense of this additional incomings.

January we sold Brownhill, replaced with Wells, Benkovic and Henriksen.

We over-recruited.

The definition of a mixed bag & as you say, we over recruited (& in my opinion sold Pack, which was unnecessary).

Real scattergun stuff, as for me we didn’t need either Palmer or Szmodics, no more than one of Adelakun & Watkins & shouldn’t have signed Nagy.

Gilmartin seriously, WTF was that all about?

Happy enough with Periera & Afobe. Ashley Williams (despite what gets said on here) was as good a player as we could ever expect to get after the window had closed, making 32 starts, 1 less than Baker & 9 more than Kalas.

Edited November 11, 2021 by GrahamC

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

The definition of a mixed bag & as you say, we over recruited (& in my opinion sold Pack, which was unnecessary).

Real scattergun stuff, as for me we didn’t need either Palmer or Szmodics, no more than one of Adelakun & Watkins & shouldn’t have signed Nagy.

Gilmartin seriously, WTF was that all about?

Happy enough with Periera & Afobe. Ashley Williams (despite what gets said on here) was as good a player as we could ever expect to get after the window had closed, making 32 starts, 1 less than Baker & 9 more than Kalas.

Wasn’t questioning the ability of the signings, just how many there were and not necessarily in positions we needed.

[mozo]

2 hours ago, JoeAman08 said:

Think it is a tricky situation as pretty much everyone OOC in the next 18 months will be on pre covid wages. So how do those negotiations go? 
 

I think we are in dreamland a bit if we think we can convince Massengo today. Not ever seen much emotion from him before but last few games he has been visibly frustrated. Can’t say that I really blame him either to be honest.

We need to be honest about the situation and weigh up the pro and cons of perhaps selling in January. I’d say same goes for Kalas and Bentley. Then we need to be honest about the valuation of players like Dasilva, Palmer and O’Dowda. We may need to take some kind of loss on them at some point which will hurt but hopefully quicken up the rebuild process. 

I think the only way you secure Massengo, other than by adequate remuneration, is telling him he's the first name on the teamsheet. Will he get that at Fulham, for example?

[Fpcity]

4 hours ago, sinenomine said:

I think so, and I appreciate it is not a popular opinion. 

His main problem is that he does not command his area. Commanding the box gives huge confidence to the defenders in front of you and I think this is partly why our defence often sits so deep. He is also not the incredible shot stopper he is lauded as being on here. 

Bang on, that's my opinion on him. Think he does a lot of camera saves and has a habit of palming the ball back into the danger zone. Nikki M was a far better keeper 

[Fpcity]

4 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

I’m wondering about Kalas. Very good defender but - partnership with Webster aside - he has rarely been part of a solid defensive unit. I think he is a good player but imagine he is on a hefty wage and am open minded as to whether he is value for money on that.

There's something about Kalas that makes me doubt that's he's as good as a lot of people say. I think we could do just as good or maybe better for less wages 

[Major Isewater]

2 hours ago, maxjak said:

Nimes are currently 13th in Ligue 2 of French footie........which is in comparative terms even lower than where we are!!    Can we please swap O' Dowda  for our lost prodigal son.................Nicholas Elliason.  I know it is just far fetched wishful thinking, but I would love to see him back?

I have thought the same thing, Nimes are up shit creek but it has to be said that if NE is not performing for them in Ligue 2, a very weak league, then questions need to be asked.

I thought he would be the stand out performer for the Crocodiles in Ligue 1 and get a move to a bigger club on the back of that but it just hasn’t happened.

 

[JoeAman08]

1 hour ago, mozo said:

I think the only way you secure Massengo, other than by adequate remuneration, is telling him he's the first name on the teamsheet. Will he get that at Fulham, for example?

I think HNM would back himself to go anywhere and get minutes. I think he is better than Reed at Fulham so I do think he could get that at Fulham. Need to remember he will probably have suitors bigger than Fulham with respect to them. He will be on the radar of teams outside England. I’d also say that when fit he probably is pretty much first name on the teamsheet. 

[brad blit]

The past 2 games COD has played he’s been excellent first half and created some of our best plays/chances. I agree with people when they say he’s far too inconsistent, but I do think he’s one of the few people in our squad with the pace & ability to knock a ball past a player and put a good ball in. IF nige wants to crack on with 433 (I’m guessing once he can have James, Williams and Massengo as a midfield 3) then surely re-training COD to play left side of front 3 would be very useful in the coming months. 

[Merrick's Marvels]

2 hours ago, JoeAman08 said:

I think HNM would back himself to go anywhere and get minutes. I think he is better than Reed at Fulham so I do think he could get that at Fulham. 

Crikey, I'd bite your hand off for a straight swap!

Reed would improve us immediately - a proven midfielder in the Championship who would dovetail with James to provide a solid base to the midfield or rotate with him as the no.6.

Not meant as a criticism of Massengo either - he'll be an excellent player, one day. Once he's learnt how best to direct his energy and in a team where the other players complement his strengths.

Unfortunately we don't have the time to wait for him to learn his trade or the time (or resources) to re-build the team with players who complement him.  

Edited November 11, 2021 by Merrick's Marvels

[JoeAman08]

12 hours ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Crikey, I'd bite your hand off for a straight swap!

Reed would improve us immediately - a proven midfielder in the Championship who would dovetail with James to provide a solid base to the midfield or rotate with him as the no.6.

Not meant as a criticism of Massengo either - he'll be an excellent player, one day. Once he's learnt how best to direct his energy and in a team where the other players complement his strengths.

Unfortunately we don't have the time to wait for him to learn his trade or the time (or resources) to re-build the team with players who complement him.  

I think a straight swap would suit us at the current time but in Fulham’s set up I’d back Massengo to be better than Reed. Reed would be an upgrade on James imo in that deeper run the game mould. From the game agaisnt us, Seri sat deepest and Reed done a lot of work around the edge of our penalty area. Feel Massengo would offer more in that role. 
 

Massengo is really good at this level but we see him in a Bristol City shirt not a Fulham or Bournemouth one. So I don’t buy he needs to learn his trade so say. We could use a more disciplined player at times for sure. I think we see a lot of our players get too hectic at times. I have seen James and Weimann sprint after the ball like Massengo does at times and leave the space they should be in.

Think it is a result of us sitting back. Why I enjoyed Bakinson performance against Coventry for the most part. He was the screen for the defence and was in position to cut out a lot of passes and crosses, especially first half. Sometimes we say he isn’t running about a player without asking should he be. 
 

Anyway, the point of all this is, I don’t think HNM is going to be too keen to sign a new deal here. So, if we get a decent offer in January we definitely need to consider it. Gould talked about moving some business up to January that we might have left until the summer. I imagine that means outgoings as well as incomings with our finances as they are. 

[Davefevs]

48 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

Why I enjoyed Bakinson performance against Coventry for the most part. He was the screen for the defence and was in position to cut out a lot of passes and crosses, especially first half. Sometimes we say he isn’t running about a player without asking should he be. 

Agree Joe.

[Merrick's Marvels]

 

1 hour ago, JoeAman08 said:

Anyway, the point of all this is, I don’t think HNM is going to be too keen to sign a new deal here. So, if we get a decent offer in January we definitely need to consider it. Gould talked about moving some business up to January that we might have left until the summer. I imagine that means outgoings as well as incomings with our finances as they are. 

Certainly agree on this 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Merrick's Marvels