Who are these players?

[dunsteral]

In Nigel Pearson's presser yesterday he was quite vehemant that come january he "will get rid of the players who dont want to be here"

Who is he referring to   any ideas?

One thing that always occurs to me when a manager (all of them not just pearson) is under pressure for poor results they accuse players

of not carrying out the managers instructions and that is why they lost. They never accept that if the players do carry out the managers

instructions but they lose anyway it may be because his instructions are the wrong ones anyway.

It seems to me that players these days have to play to the managers instructions and are not allowed to express themselves for fear of

getting a bollocking because they dont do what the managers tell them to.

Surely there has to be some room for flair or expression but it seems like ther isn,t.

 

[!james]

Wells & Palmer are the obvious ones.

[NcnsBcfc]

I think NP has looked at our squad, and seen a number of internationals; as well as former England U21s. These are not some 20-23 year olds on their first season in the Championship after moving up from L1 & L2. These are experienced professionals who are not applying themselves in any real effective way.

The team sheet tomorrow should indicate who he is pointing the finger at. With Conway & Semenyeo probably on the bench, or possibly even starting, over the next two games, we'll have a better idea.

 

[NcnsBcfc]

2 minutes ago, !james said:

Wells & Palmer are the obvious ones.

I'd add Dasilva into the list as well. He's not been the same since his injuries; and defensively he's been poor. Hence the rotating with Pring, and even Baker playing there.

[Davefevs]

We don’t know…..yet.

Might be some clues as early as tomorrow at 2pm when we see the teamsheet.

He’s talked up players like Semenyo, so you’d imagine he’d at least make the 18.

Excluding the keepers, here’s who is available tomorrow as far as we know.

RB: Vyner, Simpson (2)

CB: Kalas, Baker, Atkinson (3)

LB: Dasilva, Pring (2)

CM: Williams, Massengo, Bakinson (3)

AM: Palmer, Scott (2)

WM: O’Dowda, Semenyo, Janneh, Benarous (4)

FW: Martin, Weimann, Wells, Bell, Conway (5)

I make that 21 players for 16 shirts.  5 players won’t be getting kitted up tomorrow.

Tanner, King, James, Cundy injured.  When they are back, that’s 8 of the above players not getting in the MD18.

[petehinton]

Been really enjoying the total guessing re players with no substance or reasoning behind it. Hopefully the line up sees basically no changes tomorrow so the content can keep coming 

Edited November 19, 2021 by petehinton

[NcnsBcfc]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

We don’t know…..yet.

Might be some clues as early as tomorrow at 2pm when we see the teamsheet.

He’s talked up players like Semenyo, so you’d imagine he’d at least make the 18.

Excluding the keepers, here’s who is available tomorrow as far as we know.

RB: Vyner, Simpson (2)

CB: Kalas, Baker, Atkinson (3)

LB: Dasilva, Pring (2)

CM: Williams, Massengo, Bakinson (3)

AM: Palmer, Scott (2)

WM: O’Dowda, Semenyo, Janneh, Benarous (4)

FW: Martin, Weimann, Wells, Bell, Conway (5)

I make that 21 players for 16 shirts.  5 players won’t be getting kitted up tomorrow.

Tanner, King, James, Cundy injured.  When they are back, that’s 8 of the above players not getting in the MD18.

thanks @Davefevs

When you put that team on paper, it does look weak doesn't it.

I understand NP wanting to work with a smaller squad. But when a large number of that aforementioned small squad are either injured, out of form or as he puts it "Not on the bus"; then there is very little to work with.

Hence the flogging of Martin, Weimann and James (until his injury).

Benarous reminded me a lot of when Semenyeo first came into the team, when he played against Barnsley. Completely out of pace/Understanding of the team. It was a bizarre decision that @GrahamCand I were dumfounded by.

Scott's early season promise has given way to being ponderous, and lacking confidence. It's always difficult of course being 18, and playing in a struggling side. But that leaves Palmer as the only attacking Midfielder. Hence why we've scored so little goals at home of course.

What does he do, put the kids in? (Conway, Bell, Jannah, Bakinson again...?). NP talks about having experienced players. We have experienced players that are just not performing to anywhere near the required standard.

Getting further experienced players in the Jan window is going to be very very difficult. You only really then get young players, or experienced players with an attitude problem/issue that have fallen out with their current team; and aren't playing. For every Tomlin that you get in of this ilk(from his loan spell, before he turned into one of those for us on a permanent), there are countless others that have had virtually no real impact.

[2015]

Palmer, Dasilva, Vyner, Wells and I have a feeling it might be Bakinson too.

[CodeRed]

3 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Palmer, Dasilva, Vyner, Wells and I have a feeling it might be Bakinson too.

that would be my "top 5" as well. Based on the teams/squad Nige has selected - and the subs made - when these players have been fit and available. 

Three of them signed for relatively high fees by Championship standards. Bakinson was only £500K though I think.

 

[Banjo Red]

4 minutes ago, CodeRed said:

that would be my "top 5" as well. Based on the teams/squad Nige has selected - and the subs made - when these players have been fit and available. 

Three of them signed for relatively high fees by Championship standards. Bakinson was only £500K though I think.

 

Unfortunately like with any footballer a move just doesn't work out or they are just not up to scratch. Maybe attitude is a big factor I like Nige's ruthless side it has been too cosy for too long.

[Davefevs]

18 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

thanks @Davefevs

When you put that team on paper, it does look weak doesn't it.

think it’s “okay”, but assumption that Williams, Baker, Atkinson coming back makes it look so much better than pre-break / Cov.  Fingers crossed Semenyo can make an impact too.

I understand NP wanting to work with a smaller squad. But when a large number of that aforementioned small squad are either injured, out of form or as he puts it "Not on the bus"; then there is very little to work with.

yes, and I think it further highlights that ideally he would’ve got shot in the summer, but couldn’t….and had to make decisions he didn’t want to on those he let go.  Pure guesswork….Jamie Paterson???

Hence the flogging of Martin, Weimann and James (until his injury).

In Martin’s case the one noticeable game he came off after 65 mins was QPR when we had a strong bench….Semenyo coming on to decent effect.  The other was Forest, when again we had a relatively strong bench, was replaced by Massengo. So hopefully with a strong bench tomorrow, means less reticence to leave him on if he’s starting to tire.

Benarous reminded me a lot of when Semenyeo first came into the team, when he played against Barnsley. Completely out of pace/Understanding of the team. It was a bizarre decision that @GrahamCand I were dumfounded by.

Scott's early season promise has given way to being ponderous, and lacking confidence. It's always difficult of course being 18, and playing in a struggling side. But that leaves Palmer as the only attacking Midfielder. Hence why we've scored so little goals at home of course.

Think he’s generally been good when he’s featured:

What does he do, put the kids in? (Conway, Bell, Jannah, Bakinson again...?). NP talks about having experienced players. We have experienced players that are just not performing to anywhere near the required standard.

Think he’s getting to the point where performance / results will negate the relevance of age and experience and he’ll play those that get the job done.  If that’s a bunch of 20 year olds, so be it.  Not ideal though.  But we have imbalance in our age bands at first team level.  Only Bentley and Kalas of the guaranteed starters are between 25-29.

Getting further experienced players in the Jan window is going to be very very difficult. You only really then get young players, or experienced players with an attitude problem/issue that have fallen out with their current team; and aren't playing. For every Tomlin that you get in of this ilk(from his loan spell, before he turned into one of those for us on a permanent), there are countless others that have had virtually no real impact.

I guess experienced doesn’t have to mean 28+ (I know you didn’t say that).  Joe Williams (24) is experienced….a couple like that would do nicely.

[tin]

59 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Palmer, Dasilva, Vyner, Wells and I have a feeling it might be Bakinson too.

Agreed, and I think you could possibly throw COD into that bracket as well. Dasilva's a shadow of the player has was before injury. 

[Waconda]

1 hour ago, petehinton said:

Been really enjoying the total guessing re players with no substance or reasoning behind it. Hopefully the line up sees basically no changes tomorrow so the content can keep coming 

This will happen. Groundhog day.

[BCFCGav]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

We don’t know…..yet.

Might be some clues as early as tomorrow at 2pm when we see the teamsheet.

He’s talked up players like Semenyo, so you’d imagine he’d at least make the 18.

Excluding the keepers, here’s who is available tomorrow as far as we know.

RB: Vyner, Simpson (2)

CB: Kalas, Baker, Atkinson (3)

LB: Dasilva, Pring (2)

CM: Williams, Massengo, Bakinson (3)

AM: Palmer, Scott (2)

WM: O’Dowda, Semenyo, Janneh, Benarous (4)

FW: Martin, Weimann, Wells, Bell, Conway (5)

I make that 21 players for 16 shirts.  5 players won’t be getting kitted up tomorrow.

Tanner, King, James, Cundy injured.  When they are back, that’s 8 of the above players not getting in the MD18.

Are Baker and Atkinson confirmed as well Fevs? Or are we assuming so based on the nature of initial injury?

[Northern Red]

I must be missing something with Wells, because a lot of people have him flagged as one of the bad apples and I've genuinely not seen it.

Of course he's on high wages with minimal resale value and might be difficult to move on, but that's a different argument entirely.

Edited November 19, 2021 by Northern Red

[exAtyeoMax]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

We don’t know…..yet.

Might be some clues as early as tomorrow at 2pm when we see the teamsheet.

He’s talked up players like Semenyo, so you’d imagine he’d at least make the 18.

Excluding the keepers, here’s who is available tomorrow as far as we know.

RB: Vyner, Simpson (2)

CB: Kalas, Baker, Atkinson (3)

LB: Dasilva, Pring (2)

CM: Williams, Massengo, Bakinson (3)

AM: Palmer, Scott (2)

WM: O’Dowda, Semenyo, Janneh, Benarous (4)

FW: Martin, Weimann, Wells, Bell, Conway (5)

I make that 21 players for 16 shirts.  5 players won’t be getting kitted up tomorrow.

Tanner, King, James, Cundy injured.  When they are back, that’s 8 of the above players not getting in the MD18.

I'm still a bit confused re CoD…was he injured before he went off to International duty? He featured in a couple of fixtures… I've lost track completely!

Has he been left out because of injury or because he doesn't fit the team? Or what?

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, BCFCGav said:

Are Baker and Atkinson confirmed as well Fevs? Or are we assuming so based on the nature of initial injury?

Baker is fit, quote something along the lines of “he’s trained really well this morning”.

Atkinson, “yes, he’s training, he’s training”

[frenchred]

He's come out with the same rhetoric before and picked exactly the same team as previous

[One Team]

35 minutes ago, tin said:

Agreed, and I think you could possibly throw COD into that bracket as well. Dasilva's a shadow of the player has was before injury. 

Agreed with all those: Wells, Palmer, O’Dowda, JD, Vyner, Bakinson. We will know for sure in January!

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I'm still a bit confused re CoD…was he injured before he went off to International duty? He featured in a couple of fixtures… I've lost track completely!

Has he been left out because of injury or because he doesn't fit the team? Or what?

Callum has been in the last 9 Match day 18s, starting 3 (and subbed off in 2), coming on as sub in 3, and an unused sub in 3.  This follows the injury he picked up on the opening day.  He played the full 90 v Coventry.

[BigTone]

2 hours ago, !james said:

Wells & Palmer are the obvious ones.

Ooo roo O'Doodah

[exAtyeoMax]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Callum has been in the last 9 Match day 18s, starting 3 (and subbed off in 2), coming on as sub in 3, and an unused sub in 3.  This follows the injury he picked up on the opening day.  He played the full 90 v Coventry.

so he's been fully fit for all of those…

I wonder if he'll feature more now…?

[miser]

Takes me back the old Soviet Union days when Politburo photos were scrutinised to find out who were in favour and who were likely to be ousted/shot in the future.

[Engvall’s Splinter]

7 minutes ago, frenchred said:

He's come out with the same rhetoric before and picked exactly the same team as previous

Absolutely this. 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

so he's been fully fit for all of those…

I wonder if he'll feature more now…?

I think the first few he was getting back to fitness in fairness.

If he plays like he did v Cov first half, then yes.

[Mendip City]

It’s all interesting speculation but January is some time away.
3 games in a week, 2 at home, I’m more interested in seeing whether NP can get a tune out of what he has… so far it’s been a lot of talk and “jam tomorrow”. If results (and hopefully performances) don’t improve it might not be NP’s problem to decide who goes in January. 
The blame and binning of players is frustrating it would seem better to me if we were also seeing other players doing their jobs well and improving with good coaching… I’ve not seen a lot of evidence! 

[RedRock]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Baker is fit, quote something along the lines of “he’s trained really well this morning”.

Atkinson, “yes, he’s training, he’s training”

Personally, think Atkinson has been one of the issues with our defence. Bit of inexperience regarding positioning, slow recovery on occasions. Don’t think he’s as ‘oven-ready’ as it first appeared. Very rarely do Bristol City buy anyone of his age and lack of experience and get them fully functioning as an ever-present in the first team. Far from being one of Nige’s names in terms of shipping out though. 
 

Would agree with ‘2015’ and ‘Tin’ on the list. Only two that disappoint me is Wells and Dasilva. These are players who, if used correctly, could be assets - Wells leading the line and Dasilva wide midfield (his height was always going to be an issue at fullback- once the opposition had sussed it, which they did early on). I suppose the question is though, given their wages, will they ever deliver value for money.  The rest, well, even though some have undoubted talent, it’s application, desire and heart that’s all too frequently missing. You don’t get away with less than 100% in the Championship. 
 

[Davefevs]

Not saying this is the side I’d pick tomorrow, but if Nige went with this, I’m not sure there could be too many excuses for not getting a performance (result is a different matter).

                           Bentley

           Kalas | Baker | Atkinson | Pring

Semenyo | Williams | Massengo | O’Dowda 

                 Weimann | Martin

[Garland-sweden]

Dasilva and Bakinson not good enough. Add COD, not mutch of end product but showed that he has it, to seldom he shoes it. Wells and Palmer good players but no idea how NP thinks.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, RedRock said:

Personally, think Atkinson has been one of the issues with our defence. Bit of inexperience regarding positioning, slow recovery on occasions. Don’t think he’s as ‘oven-ready’ as it first appeared. Very rarely do Bristol City buy anyone of his age and lack of experience and get them fully functioning as an ever-present in the first team. Far from being one of Nige’s names in terms of shipping out though. 
 

Would agree with ‘2015’ and ‘Tin’ on the list. Only two that disappoint me is Wells and Dasilva. These are players who, if used correctly, could be assets - Wells leading the line and Dasilva wide midfield (his height was always going to be an issue at fullback- once the opposition had sussed it, which they did early on). I suppose the question is though, given their wages, will they ever deliver value for money.  The rest, well, even though some have undoubted talent, it’s application, desire and heart that’s all too frequently missing. You don’t get away with less than 100% in the Championship. 
 

I think Atkinson has settled pretty well, although I’m not expecting Kalas / Baker levels from him.  We’ve had a pretty inconsistent pairings all the way across the back 4/5 this season which doesn’t help.

[TonyTonyTony]

2 minutes ago, Garland-sweden said:

Dasilva and Bakinson not good enough.

Wasn’t that long ago we had a high opinion of JD. England Under 21 but had lost his way. I wonder what has happened?

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Wasn’t that long ago we had a high opinion of JD. England Under 21 but had lost his way. I wonder what has happened?

I thought earlier this season he was starting to return to his on-loan form.  But following the ankle injury at Millwall he’s not been the same.  Worth remembering he missed most of last season, so gonna have ups and downs.

[maxjak]

1 hour ago, NcnsBcfc said:

thanks @Davefevs

When you put that team on paper, it does look weak doesn't it.

I understand NP wanting to work with a smaller squad. But when a large number of that aforementioned small squad are either injured, out of form or as he puts it "Not on the bus"; then there is very little to work with.

Hence the flogging of Martin, Weimann and James (until his injury).

Benarous reminded me a lot of when Semenyeo first came into the team, when he played against Barnsley. Completely out of pace/Understanding of the team. It was a bizarre decision that @GrahamCand I were dumfounded by.

Scott's early season promise has given way to being ponderous, and lacking confidence. It's always difficult of course being 18, and playing in a struggling side. But that leaves Palmer as the only attacking Midfielder. Hence why we've scored so little goals at home of course.

What does he do, put the kids in? (Conway, Bell, Jannah, Bakinson again...?). NP talks about having experienced players. We have experienced players that are just not performing to anywhere near the required standard.

Getting further experienced players in the Jan window is going to be very very difficult. You only really then get young players, or experienced players with an attitude problem/issue that have fallen out with their current team; and aren't playing. For every Tomlin that you get in of this ilk(from his loan spell, before he turned into one of those for us on a permanent), there are countless others that have had virtually no real impact.

Alex's 3 performances in central midfield for England U 19's during the break clearly show the ability of this young man, and while playing in a well drilled and relatively successful side will hopefully have boosted his confidence, the transition to a poorly organised struggling adult team doesn't do him any favours?    I think he needs to be used sparingly, until our team finds some kind of stability?  He's gonna be a quality footballer eventually, so lets not ruin him, by expecting too much, too soon?    

[TonyTonyTony]

Just now, Davefevs said:

I thought earlier this season he was starting to return to his on-loan form.  But following the ankle injury at Millwall he’s not been the same.  Worth remembering he missed most of last season, so gonna have ups and downs.

I hope he gets back to form. Id be a bit gutted if we got rid of him as i think there is a very good left back / wing back even though he is lightweight.

 

[maxjak]

3 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

I hope he gets back to form. Id be a bit gutted if we got rid of him as i think there is a very good left back / wing back even though he is lightweight.

 

Lightweight sums he up, he's not commited enough in the tackle, and his positional play is sub standard.  He might well succeed elsewhere, in the right team, but IMHO, I would get rid of him, and bring in a stronger and smarter left back if possible.

[Davefevs]

Just now, maxjak said:

Lightweight sums he up, he's not commited enough in the tackle, and his positional play is sub standard.  He might well succeed elsewhere, in the right team, but IMHO, I would get rid of him, and bring in a stronger and smarter left back if possible.

Much as I like Dasilva, to think that the summer we signed him we could’ve had Antonee Robinson (from Everton) for the same money.

[One Team]

15 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Wasn’t that long ago we had a high opinion of JD. England Under 21 but had lost his way. I wonder what has happened?

True. I do wonder if the best thing about JD is his song. 

[Port Said Red]

2 hours ago, NcnsBcfc said:

I'd add Dasilva into the list as well. He's not been the same since his injuries; and defensively he's been poor. Hence the rotating with Pring, and even Baker playing there.

I wouldn't, the body language between the two is excellent whenever I have seen them together. All smiles and chatting. 

[YCbrs]

I’m no expert but I think the criticism towards Bakinson is unfair. He’s still pretty young and is basically our only all round midfielder, I think with some better midfielders around him and the right striker making decent runs occasionally he could look much more accomplished as a deep lying playmaker as he has an eye for an interception too.

[NcnsBcfc]

51 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think Atkinson has settled pretty well, although I’m not expecting Kalas / Baker levels from him.  We’ve had a pretty inconsistent pairings all the way across the back 4/5 this season which doesn’t help.

Agreed, he does lose out in a physical challenge from time to time, but he is of course on a steep learning curve. He has some pace, not bad in the air, and a better passer of the ball than Baker. He's not a Webster, and he looks raw at times; but I've seen enough of Atkinson to like his potential at least. He is willing to learn, and brave (a number of times he could have gone off injured, but stayed on). It's a huge leap from NL to Champ in 2 years (via L1). I'll need to see how he is next season, after a full season at this level to make any form of judgement on whether he is up to the job or not; the same goes for Tanner.

It says a lot about us as a club that we've had to go into the lower divisions to buy players. Previously we were feeding at the table of PL sides like Chelsea and Villa (Quoting Kalas, Palmer, JD and Baker there). Nowadays we're buying from Oxford, and Carlisle; whilst the other three new permanent signings this summer had all been released by their clubs, or in Simpson's case was on a shirt term deal here.

Gone are the days for the time being of us being in ready made replacements at this level. We just don't have the scope to do that at present.

I got the feeling from NP's interviews yesterday, that he has gone back to the board and almost insisted on new arrivals in Jan. A further indication that he has lost faith in the current group of players for me.

[NcnsBcfc]

57 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I thought earlier this season he was starting to return to his on-loan form.  But following the ankle injury at Millwall he’s not been the same.  Worth remembering he missed most of last season, so gonna have ups and downs.

Since his wonderful loan spell with us, he just hasn't hit those heights again unfortunately. A combination of injuries, and lack of form I reckon.

When he was at his best, he would maraud up and down the wing, and look to break through the front line (like Weimann's first goal against Barnsley). He would often have the pace, and natural ball skills to get himself back into position. A decent crosser of the ball, who linked up well with the left winger/midfielder.

For me at the moment,  not only have has his pace gone; but also his defensive capabilities. He very rarely gets close enough to a player to cut out a cross, or indeed breaks over the half way line anymore. Whether this is a physical or mental thing i don't know. But i remember NP talking about the need for him to improve earlier on this season. 

He is also a liability on defending crossed coming in from the other side at the back post. To such a degree, that NP has even put Baker in there to defend it better; and there's no way Nathan Baker is a LB (I know he played there when he started). I don't think he trusts Pring either to be fair; and is probably annoyed by his lack of fitness.

Problems at both full back positions have haunted us for years now, whilst the centre backs generally haven't been too bad. Vyner's poor performances against Brum, and Coventry have probably sealed his fate i would imagine. Much like good old Taylor Moore.

[DaveF]

25 minutes ago, YCbrs said:

I’m no expert but I think the criticism towards Bakinson is unfair. He’s still pretty young and is basically our only all round midfielder, I think with some better midfielders around him and the right striker making decent runs occasionally he could look much more accomplished as a deep lying playmaker as he has an eye for an interception too.

I would say he's all round, defensively he's a total liability.

I agree he could be a decent play maker, but really needs to work on his defensive side.

[YCbrs]

5 minutes ago, DaveF said:

I would say he's all round, defensively he's a total liability.

I agree he could be a decent play maker, but really needs to work on his defensive side.

Yeah he’s not the finished product I completely agree but I’ve seen some improvement in his defensive game recently, with more work and experience, and as I mentioned before with some better players around him he looks like he could develop into a decent player at this level in my opinion.

[Waconda]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I thought earlier this season he was starting to return to his on-loan form.  But following the ankle injury at Millwall he’s not been the same.  Worth remembering he missed most of last season, so gonna have ups and downs.

TBF I think the opposition have worked out that the long diagonal over/on is head is very effective weapon against us. 

[DaveF]

35 minutes ago, DaveF said:

I would say he's all round, defensively he's a total liability.

I agree he could be a decent play maker, but really needs to work on his defensive side.

That should read 'wouldn't'...

[Clutton Caveman]

4 hours ago, dunsteral said:

In Nigel Pearson's presser yesterday he was quite vehemant that come january he "will get rid of the players who dont want to be here"

Who is he referring to   any ideas?

One thing that always occurs to me when a manager (all of them not just pearson) is under pressure for poor results they accuse players

of not carrying out the managers instructions and that is why they lost. They never accept that if the players do carry out the managers

instructions but they lose anyway it may be because his instructions are the wrong ones anyway.

It seems to me that players these days have to play to the managers instructions and are not allowed to express themselves for fear of

getting a bollocking because they dont do what the managers tell them to.

Surely there has to be some room for flair or expression but it seems like ther isn,t.

 

It seems to me that when managers start to talk a bout players as they, instead of we, and start to air their dirty washing in public to distract from the real problems, they don't last long.

[Davefevs]

35 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Since his wonderful loan spell with us, he just hasn't hit those heights again unfortunately. A combination of injuries, and lack of form I reckon.

When he was at his best, he would maraud up and down the wing, and look to break through the front line (like Weimann's first goal against Barnsley). He would often have the pace, and natural ball skills to get himself back into position. A decent crosser of the ball, who linked up well with the left winger/midfielder.

For me at the moment,  not only have has his pace gone; but also his defensive capabilities. He very rarely gets close enough to a player to cut out a cross, or indeed breaks over the half way line anymore. Whether this is a physical or mental thing i don't know. But i remember NP talking about the need for him to improve earlier on this season. 

He is also a liability on defending crossed coming in from the other side at the back post. To such a degree, that NP has even put Baker in there to defend it better; and there's no way Nathan Baker is a LB (I know he played there when he started). I don't think he trusts Pring either to be fair; and is probably annoyed by his lack of fitness.

Problems at both full back positions have haunted us for years now, whilst the centre backs generally haven't been too bad. Vyner's poor performances against Brum, and Coventry have probably sealed his fate i would imagine. Much like good old Taylor Moore.

I probably don’t see him quite as “bad” as you do, but I do think he’s not playing anywhere near how he was earlier this season.  One to watch over the coming games…assuming he plays.

16 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

TBF I think the opposition have worked out that the long diagonal over/on is head is very effective weapon against us. 

It’s a double edged sword…one where we’d really need to hear from Nige why 1) our full-backs start narrow and / or 2) we don’t get enough pressure on the player pinging the diag.

Personally I think both Dasilva and Tanner (or whoever is LB / RB) could position themselves wider earlier in the opposition phase.  I also think our wide midfielders don’t help double-up very well either. They don’t react (in fact, they don’t proactively position themselves) for that switched ball.  And Reading between the lines this is an example of what Fleming meant by “application”.

If we take an example (visualise yourself) of Lloyd Kelly in his defensive half, left side, looking to ping to the RW area.  1) Our LB can start to position himself wider, whilst still protecting the LCB to an extent.  But 2) our LM shouldn’t be worried about the RB, but positioned somewhere deeper.

Too often we defend as a 424, when we should be two banks of 4 (442).

Some pics to bring to life….hopefully!

summary: large target for Kelly to hit, plus lots of ground for our LW to make up to help support the LB.  LB too narrow also, doesn’t need to be as close to the LCB.  The LW is actually doing nothing of use positioned where he is.  If he has the intelligence to know Kelly’s range then he would position himself better.  It is why we often get overrun through the middle.  We really do have a midfield two in this scenario.

This time the LB has gone say 5-8 yards wider.  The LW tucked in 10-15 yards. Kelly’s diag, even if the CF hadn’t pressed him much, has a much smaller target area.  Plus if he does land that pass, the LB and LW are close enough to double up.  The LW is also in touch with the LCM, and that allows the RCM to go tight to the midfielder close to Kelly, as long as they are mindful of screening the passing lane into Solanke.

Too often will are I’ll-disciplined / not switched on out of possession.

During the match I sometimes take photos of shape / poor shape.  Tomorrow might be a good game to see how we deal with their 433 / 4231.  They will look for similar patterns as Bournemouth.

[Waconda]

Just now, Davefevs said:

I probably don’t see him quite as “bad” as you do, but I do think he’s not playing anywhere near how he was earlier this season.  One to watch over the coming games…assuming he plays.

It’s a double edged sword…one where we’d really need to hear from Nige why 1) our full-backs start narrow and / or 2) we don’t get enough pressure on the player pinging the diag.

Personally I think both Dasilva and Tanner (or whoever is LB / RB) could position themselves wider earlier in the opposition phase.  I also think our wide midfielders don’t help double-up very well either. They don’t react (in fact, they don’t proactively position themselves) for that switched ball.  And Reading between the lines this is an example of what Fleming meant by “application”.

If we take an example (visualise yourself) of Lloyd Kelly in his defensive half, left side, looking to ping to the RW area.  1) Our LB can start to position himself wider, whilst still protecting the LCB to an extent.  But 2) our LM shouldn’t be worried about the RB, but positioned somewhere deeper.

Too often we defend as a 424, when we should be two banks of 4 (442).

Some pics to bring to life….hopefully!

summary: large target for Kelly to hit, plus lots of ground for our LW to make up to help support the LB.  LB too narrow also, doesn’t need to be as close to the LCB.  The LW is actually doing nothing of use positioned where he is.  If he has the intelligence to know Kelly’s range then he would position himself better.  It is why we often get overrun through the middle.  We really do have a midfield two in this scenario.

This time the LB has gone say 5-8 yards wider.  The LW tucked in 10-15 yards. Kelly’s diag, even if the CF hadn’t pressed him much, has a much smaller target area.  Plus if he does land that pass, the LB and LW are close enough to double up.  The LW is also in touch with the LCM, and that allows the RCM to go tight to the midfielder close to Kelly, as long as they are mindful of screening the passing lane into Solanke.

Too often will are I’ll-disciplined / not switched on out of possession.

During the match I sometimes take photos of shape / poor shape.  Tomorrow might be a good game to see how we deal with their 433 / 4231.  They will look for similar patterns as Bournemouth.

Yes !

It is a worry that we seem unable to fix this issue.

[42nite]

2 hours ago, frenchred said:

He's come out with the same rhetoric before and picked exactly the same team as previous

Maybe putting them in the shop window...hoping they will perform, allowing their agents to see if they can get any bids going?

The thinking being that any player that can't get into our first team at the moment can't be up to much.

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by 42nite

[LondonBristolian]

I think it is a bit unfair to speculatively name players as we don’t know what goes on behind the scenes. I also think it may be a misnomer to pick out who is not playing and assume it must be them. It could as easily be that players we are having to rely on week in and week out are not showing the leadership needed from senior players.

Like anyone I’ve got five or six names in my head I think it could be but we will learn in January or beyond if we are right or wrong.

One thing I would say is Wells’ name seems to be coming up a bit but, whilst I do not think he suits how we play or we suit how he plays, I don’t feel his application has been a major issue when he has been selected.

[LondonBristolian]

On a tangenital note, here is a BBC article about Conte at Spurs. Nothing to do with us but the last paragraph really really resonates:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59348031

[pongo88]

One point that doesn’t seem to be considered, is it easy for NP to say he will get rid of players who don’t want to be here, but much harder to actually do it.. Even Nagy, who is an international and a good player, had to be given away. In the current market there might not be many takers for the players NP wants to get rid off, even on a free transfer, due to their salary and poor form. The only option for some might be to go on loan somewhere with City still paying part of their salary 

[Waconda]

8 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think it is a bit unfair to speculatively name players as we don’t know what goes on behind the scenes. I also think it may be a misnomer to pick out who is not playing and assume it must be them. It could as easily be that players we are having to rely on week in and week out are not showing the leadership needed from senior players.

Like anyone I’ve got five or six names in my head I think it could be but we will learn in January or beyond if we are right or wrong.

One thing I would say is Wells’ name seems to be coming up a bit but, whilst I do not think he suits how we play or we suit how he plays, I don’t feel his application has been a major issue when he has been selected.

Would it be unfair to ask NP to name the players ?

He says he has told them so no surprises for them.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, pongo88 said:

One point that doesn’t seem to be considered, is it easy for NP to say he will get rid of players who don’t want to be here, but much harder to actually do it.. Even Nagy, who is an international and a good player, had to be given away. In the current market there might not be many takers for the players NP wants to get rid off, even on a free transfer, due to their salary and poor form. The only option for some might be to go on loan somewhere with City still paying part of their salary 

Yes, what alluded to earlier.  Might have to cut our losses, might have to pay a portion of their wages or accept a loan where we don’t get someone to take on the full cost.

As crap as it sounds I’m more in favour of getting “something” than just have them sat around picking up a full wage and not being suitable for selection.  Surely better to loan out player A at 50% of his wages than have him sat at the HPC being a bad influence.

[NcnsBcfc]

5 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think it is a bit unfair to speculatively name players as we don’t know what goes on behind the scenes. I also think it may be a misnomer to pick out who is not playing and assume it must be them. It could as easily be that players we are having to rely on week in and week out are not showing the leadership needed from senior players.

Like anyone I’ve got five or six names in my head I think it could be but we will learn in January or beyond if we are right or wrong.

One thing I would say is Wells’ name seems to be coming up a bit but, whilst I do not think he suits how we play or we suit how he plays, I don’t feel his application has been a major issue when he has been selected.

I think Wells has some quality to him, but at the moment he looks a bit of a square peg in a round hole.

I can't remember seeing a worse protagonist of the forward pressing the defender. From my place in the Dolman, I see him run to within two or three yards of each defender; and then give him, allowing them the opportunity to bring the ball forward unopposed. You can see Martin, and Weimann thinking "why should i bother on this 3 man press, when Wells just isn't applying himself". It's the same when he is asked to play right midfield. He doesn't track his player, and puts in the minimum amount of effort. It's not always his fault of course, sometimes when he gets the ball, his options are so limited that he either loses the ball, or is unable to make an impact.

The above paragraph just really documents that the way he is being asked to play, just isn't his game. He comes alive in the six yard box; and thrives on players getting to the goal line and passing the ball to him. At QPR he had an embarassment of riches in that respect with Eze, Chair & Oseyi-Samuel. We simply don't have those players with the skill, and pace to make that happen.

Strangely my eldest son played up at Failand recently, and was allowed into the gym afterwards. He photgraphed the leadership board for the total distance running, High Intensity distance, Sprint distance, max speed, CMJ Height, Peak Power, Nordbord?, and MTP? @Davefevs you might be interested in the results.

The winner in the max speed "Nakki Wells at 10.3" surprisingly. The next three were all defenders. Tells you everything about our pace up top.

 

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

I think Wells has some quality to him, but at the moment he looks a bit of a square peg in a round hole.

I can't remember seeing a worse protagonist of the forward pressing the defender. From my place in the Dolman, I see him run to within two or three yards of each defender; and then give him, allowing them the opportunity to bring the ball forward unopposed. You can see Martin, and Weimann thinking "why should i bother on this 3 man press, when Wells just isn't applying himself". It's the same when he is asked to play right midfield. He doesn't track his player, and puts in the minimum amount of effort. It's not always his fault of course, sometimes when he gets the ball, his options are so limited that he either loses the ball, or is unable to make an impact.

The above paragraph just really documents that the way he is being asked to play, just isn't his game. He comes alive in the six yard box; and thrives on players getting to the goal line and passing the ball to him. At QPR he had an embarassment of riches in that respect with Eze, Chair & Oseyi-Samuel. We simply don't have those players with the skill, and pace to make that happen.

Strangely my eldest son played up at Failand recently, and was allowed into the gym afterwards. He photgraphed the leadership board for the total distance running, High Intensity distance, Sprint distance, max speed, CMJ Height, Peak Power, Nordbord?, and MTP? @Davefevs you might be interested in the results.

The winner in the max speed "Nakki Wells at 10.3" surprisingly. The next three were all defenders. Tells you everything about our pace up top.

 

Very interested!

Think Nige said Atkinson was quick….already know Kalas is.

[chinapig]

28 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I probably don’t see him quite as “bad” as you do, but I do think he’s not playing anywhere near how he was earlier this season.  One to watch over the coming games…assuming he plays.

It’s a double edged sword…one where we’d really need to hear from Nige why 1) our full-backs start narrow and / or 2) we don’t get enough pressure on the player pinging the diag.

Personally I think both Dasilva and Tanner (or whoever is LB / RB) could position themselves wider earlier in the opposition phase.  I also think our wide midfielders don’t help double-up very well either. They don’t react (in fact, they don’t proactively position themselves) for that switched ball.  And Reading between the lines this is an example of what Fleming meant by “application”.

If we take an example (visualise yourself) of Lloyd Kelly in his defensive half, left side, looking to ping to the RW area.  1) Our LB can start to position himself wider, whilst still protecting the LCB to an extent.  But 2) our LM shouldn’t be worried about the RB, but positioned somewhere deeper.

Too often we defend as a 424, when we should be two banks of 4 (442).

Some pics to bring to life….hopefully!

summary: large target for Kelly to hit, plus lots of ground for our LW to make up to help support the LB.  LB too narrow also, doesn’t need to be as close to the LCB.  The LW is actually doing nothing of use positioned where he is.  If he has the intelligence to know Kelly’s range then he would position himself better.  It is why we often get overrun through the middle.  We really do have a midfield two in this scenario.

This time the LB has gone say 5-8 yards wider.  The LW tucked in 10-15 yards. Kelly’s diag, even if the CF hadn’t pressed him much, has a much smaller target area.  Plus if he does land that pass, the LB and LW are close enough to double up.  The LW is also in touch with the LCM, and that allows the RCM to go tight to the midfielder close to Kelly, as long as they are mindful of screening the passing lane into Solanke.

Too often will are I’ll-disciplined / not switched on out of possession.

During the match I sometimes take photos of shape / poor shape.  Tomorrow might be a good game to see how we deal with their 433 / 4231.  They will look for similar patterns as Bournemouth.

The bold bit seems fundamental to me. I can go back to GJ's team where Sproule and McIndoe would always drop back, allowing the full backs to tuck in close to the centre backs.

The central midfielders would then position themselves in front of the defence and hey presto you have a very effective barrier that challenges the opposition to find space to play in the final third.

This takes organisation, discipline and commitment certainly but it's not rocket science. So why is the current team incapable of doing the same?

Edited November 19, 2021 by chinapig

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, JonDolman said:

I think Dasilva is a class player and will show that if he goes to a team that suits his game more than we do. We aren't the right team for him imo.

For that reason I think Pearson will look to move him on. Doubt we would get much for him though. But then surely replacing him shouldn't cost much either.

Dasilva has been nowhere near the player he has been previously when fit. On loan but also in 19/20 in his first season as a permanent player he was much better than this.

I would say though that most players are not playing to their best this season. Apart from maybe Bentley and Kalas I cant think of anyone else.

That depends whether the current system /style (yes some of you what system, what style) is transitional or not.  Might be a pragmatic one until he can shift some out, bring some in.

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, chinapig said:

This seems fundamental to me. I can go back to GJ's team where Sproule and McIndoe would always drop back, allowing the full backs to tuck in close to the centre backs.

The central midfielders would then position themselves in front of the defence and hey presto you have a very effective barrier that challenges the opposition to find space to play in the final third.

This takes organisation, discipline and commitment certainly but it's not rocket science. So why is the current team incapable of doing the same?

I honestly think we have some players with very poor football intelligence.  The ones with good FI to support their playing skills have left us behind!

Edited November 19, 2021 by Davefevs

[BCFC_Dan]

It could be that there aren't actually any specific players he's referring to and he's said it to get a reaction out of all of them.

[Peter1450]

11 minutes ago, BCFC_Dan said:

It could be that there aren't actually any specific players he's referring to and he's said it to get a reaction out of all of them.

Let’s hope he gets the correct reaction out of them tomorrow then as it’s not done anything to improve them as a team this season.

[chinapig]

27 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I honestly think we have some players with very poor football intelligence.  The ones with good FI to support their playing skills have left us behind!

I fear you are right. Quite how players get to this level without the pretty basic understanding of defending in a 4-4-2 as I described it is beyond me though.

[maxjak]

37 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I think Dasilva is a class player and will show that if he goes to a team that suits his game more than we do. We aren't the right team for him imo.

For that reason I think Pearson will look to move him on. Doubt we would get much for him though. But then surely replacing him shouldn't cost much either.

Dasilva has been nowhere near the player he has been previously when fit. On loan but also in 19/20 in his first season as a permanent player he was much better than this.

I would say though that most players are not playing to their best this season. Apart from maybe Bentley and Kalas I cant think of anyone else.

Agreed.........I can see New Zealands Hobbiton FC coming in for him? ....... Sorry to be flippant, but does Jay really look like a 3 mill ex Chelsea player?

Edited November 19, 2021 by maxjak

[Simon bristol]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Not saying this is the side I’d pick tomorrow, but if Nige went with this, I’m not sure there could be too many excuses for not getting a performance (result is a different matter).

                           Bentley

           Kalas | Baker | Atkinson | Pring

Semenyo | Williams | Massengo | O’Dowda 

                 Weimann | Martin

Lots if people complain about a lack of quality, but to me thats a standard average midtable championship side on paper?

[Simon bristol]

4 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Agreed.........I can see New Zealands Hobbiton FC coming in for him? ....... Sorry to be flippant, but does Jay really look like a 3 mill ex Chelsea player?

No, he doesnt, dont know if its his shins that have taken a yard of pace off him, but like palmer, if we could get his wages off the books at this point, that wouldnt be a bad outcome in my view

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I fear you are right. Quite how players get to this level without the pretty basic understanding of defending in a 4-4-2 as I described it is beyond me though.

I think a lot of players “get by” through age group football on talent / skill or sometimes physicality….and then everything starts to even put as they get into senior football.  Then the brain starts to have a bearing.  Can they take on instruction?  Can they then adapt that instruction to the real-time situation in matches?  Some can’t.  I see some players looking lost on the pitch.

[Gillies Downs Leeds]

1 minute ago, JonDolman said:

I actually think he will do well elsewhere at this level. Agree with many though that this season he's playing nowhere near as well as he can

I am not sure that there is not a mentality issue here. He had consistent shin splint issues, and maybe that is still affecting him, if not physically but mentally. For sure he has been very disappointing of late and gets targeted by the opposition.

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Simon bristol said:

Lots if people complain about a lack of quality, but to me thats a standard average midtable championship side on paper?

We are only one win off mid table too!  Don’t get me wrong the current trend is poor, but I don’t think it’s all doom and gloom either.

Really hoping these next 3 games show us in a positive light.

Having missed the Barnsley win as I was ill, I can’t wait for tomorrow.  Tough game though, but not one we should fear.

[GrahamC]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Not saying this is the side I’d pick tomorrow, but if Nige went with this, I’m not sure there could be too many excuses for not getting a performance (result is a different matter).

                           Bentley

           Kalas | Baker | Atkinson | Pring

Semenyo | Williams | Massengo | O’Dowda 

                 Weimann | Martin

I actually think tomorrow’s side will be very close to this.

At the back though I wouldn’t be shocked to see Simpson start, because he’s the only natural RB that is fit & the alternative sees our only right footed (& our best) CB have to play out of position. Plus how fit is Atkinson in reality?

In midfield I think it’s a toss up between HNM & Bakinson but people who I trust say Tyreeq was one of the better performers v Coventry so unless it is based on what has gone on in training since (of which I have no idea) he would deserve another chance.

Been completely wrong before, mind.

 

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

I actually think tomorrow’s side will be very close to this.

At the back though I wouldn’t be shocked to see Simpson start, because he’s the only natural RB that is fit & the alternative sees our only right footed (& our best) CB have to play out of position. Plus how fit is Atkinson in reality?

In midfield I think it’s a toss up between HNM & Bakinson but people who I trust say Tyreeq was one of the better performers v Coventry so unless it is based on what has gone on in training since (of which I have no idea) he would deserve another chance.

Been completely wrong before, mind.

 

Bakinson definitely played better than Massengo v Cov, but (not really a but) we played a 4141 which suited him.

Id happily see that system again.

                            Bentley

           Kalas | Baker | Atkinson | Pring

                          Bakinson

Weimann | Williams | Massengo | O’Dowda 

                             Martin

Something like this

Edited November 19, 2021 by Davefevs