Sell Massengo?

[Better Red]

Looking at the shortcomings of the squad do we need to sell to get the funds to get the 3 players we need.

Massengo, Bakinson, Palmer & JD could offer the opportunity to get a few quid into so Nige can use to invest in the Squad.

Leftback, Midfielder and Striker look the minimum we need to give the squad a much better balance.

The above to return 2 or 3 million between and that should be enough to get at least 2 perm and 1 loan we desperately need to get us clear of relegation.

A left back would allow COD to play as a more traditional winger and also Pring can cover/compete as LB. JD becomes surplus to requirements.

A midfielder capable of starting on rotation with James and Williams allows us to cash in HNM and also get Bakinson out.

A striker maybe on loan should gives enough options to finish the season in the top half of the table.

Not popular I know but HNM impact is minimal in terms of goals and assists.

Also if Williams and James fit will he play anyway.

[Major Isewater]

3 minutes ago, Better Red said:

Also if Williams and James fit will he play anyway.

There is your answer. 

[Better Red]

Even more need for another midfielder to come in who will offer more than Massengo 

[Numero Uno]

Who would buy him for the money we would need to sell him for?

[REDOXO]

2 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Who would buy him for the money we would need to sell him for?

You could say that about any of them. I don’t have a clue what players are selling for anymore, but one thing is for sure he’s not worth much, like most of them with the exception of Bentley. 
 

If we get an offer of any sort for any player it is going to be considered. I don’t see us buying anything unless we sell. It is also pretty obvious we will have to loan whether NP likes it or not. What is clear is our best players in Williams and James have sick notes regularly. What we have out there is not good enough to compete and something has to change. 
 

Massengo is popular. But his popularity far outweighs his usefulness in a relegation battle. 

[Rob k]

I’m struggling to see the fuss with Massengo, how much do you think we would get for him? 

[Numero Uno]

2 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

You could say that about any of them. I don’t have a clue what players are selling for anymore, but one thing is for sure he’s not worth much, like most of them with the exception of Bentley. 
 

If we get an offer of any sort for any player it is going to be considered. I don’t see us buying anything unless we sell. It is also pretty obvious we will have to loan whether NP likes it or not. What is clear is our best players in Williams and James have sick notes regularly. What we have out there is not good enough to compete and something has to change. 
 

Massengo is popular. But his popularity far outweighs his usefulness in a relegation battle. 

I agree, we’ve got a squad who aren’t worth a light in transfer fees and on recent form that includes the glued to his line goalkeeper.

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I agree, we’ve got a squad who aren’t worth a light in transfer fees and on recent form that includes the glued to his line goalkeeper.

Our squad’s value has dropped off a cliff.

If any of them were to be sold, I think our the highest fee we’d get would be for Kalas.  Problem is, he’s sat with an asset value of £3m in January, so we have to sell him for a fair chunk to have just to re-invest.  What might we get £5m, £6m at most if the right club came in.  And to be honest, controversial as it might sound, freeing up c£25k p.w. is not to be sniffed at.

Whilst I like Bentley, I’m sure from a scouting perspective you’d be highlighting command of his area, poor decision making with the ball in hand or at feet, starting position when ball is up the pitch is too deep.  I don’t think you’d get much more than we paid for him (£2-3m).

If Massengo was to be sold, any chance of a sizeable fee is based on potential…which is fair enough.  I think he will go on to very good things, chances are it won’t be with us. We’d be in a better position if we could get his contract extended first.

Beyond that I’m struggling.

[REDOXO]

27 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I agree, we’ve got a squad who aren’t worth a light in transfer fees and on recent form that includes the glued to his line goalkeeper.

Yes annoying isn’t it. But to be frank we are so crap he’s bound to lack a bit of confidence. 

[REDOXO]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Our squad’s value has dropped off a cliff.

If any of them were to be sold, I think our the highest fee we’d get would be for Kalas.  Problem is, he’s sat with an asset value of £3m in January, so we have to sell him for a fair chunk to have just to re-invest.  What might we get £5m, £6m at most if the right club came in.  And to be honest, controversial as it might sound, freeing up c£25k p.w. is not to be sniffed at.

Whilst I like Bentley, I’m sure from a scouting perspective you’d be highlighting command of his area, poor decision making with the ball in hand or at feet, starting position when ball is up the pitch is too deep.  I don’t think you’d get much more than we paid for him (£2-3m).

If Massengo was to be sold, any chance of a sizeable fee is based on potential…which is fair enough.  I think he will go on to very good things, chances are it won’t be with us. We’d be in a better position if we could get his contract extended first.

Beyond that I’m struggling.

I agree. However Scott has as much potential and probably more than Massengo. IMO of course. 

[alexukhc]

Going Chelsea aint he?

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

I agree. However Scott has as much potential and probably more than Massengo. IMO of course. 

Yeah, got something about him….but we aren’t selling him in the next two windows, which is when we need funds.

[Loosey Boy]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Yeah, got something about him….but we aren’t selling him in the next two windows, which is when we need funds.

We may be “forced” to sell  Scott if we need to raise funds to re-invest?

Edited December 2, 2021 by Loosey Boy

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

I agree, we’ve got a squad who aren’t worth a light in transfer fees and on recent form that includes the glued to his line goalkeeper.

Agree 100% just as well give Max a turn, at least he will leave the line under the posts.

As for the rest the only way to get more money would be when the likes of Wells contract runs out and we dont have to pay him

[SecretSam]

I would say the likes of Palmer and Wells and their (reportedly) large wages are more of an issue.

I think HNM is a good player in a bad team, in the wrong league. Germany or France would suit him better.

[Red7]

2 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

I think HNM is a good player in a bad team, in the wrong league. Germany or France would suit him better.

Yes, I think he is a very good player. Surrounded by a lot of average or below-average ones. Personally, I'd be doing all I could to keep him.

[SecretSam]

1 minute ago, Red7 said:

Yes, I think he is a very good player. Surrounded by a lot of average or below-average ones. Personally, I'd be doing all I could to keep him.

Trouble is, the brilliant young player we need is an 18 year old Gerry Gow*. Instead we have HNM, Scott and Benarous, who are less 'combative'.

*Maybe dialled back a little on the aggression, mind...

[robin_unreliant]

I'm not sure Massengo is going to morph into the amazing midfielder some are predicting. He isn't quick, doesn't have a good shot in him. Not a great range of pass and as he never takes set pieces I assume that isn't a strength. I can't see the fuss myself. 

[BCFCGav]

In my eyes we've got a lot of players with the POTENTIAL to bring us a big fee, but very few that would in say, January. I could see Scott, Massengo, Atkinson, Conway, Tanner going for good money one day. If any were to have a really big season the fee would sky rocket. But I think we need some money in now, and I can only see Kalas or Bentley bringing in a useful fee. And I think we need both of them here ensuring we stay the right side of the bottom three this season. 

[The Bard]

12 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said:

I'm not sure Massengo is going to morph into the amazing midfielder some are predicting. He isn't quick, doesn't have a good shot in him. Not a great range of pass and as he never takes set pieces I assume that isn't a strength. I can't see the fuss myself. 

 

I can see it taking some time before he matures as a player and he'll be long gone and we wouldn't have made much on him. 

[RobintheRed Red]

39 minutes ago, Red7 said:

Yes, I think he is a very good player. Surrounded by a lot of average or below-average ones. Personally, I'd be doing all I could to keep him.

If we lose Massengo all the energy goes out of midfield never gonna get many goals but that's always been a midfield problem.

[Gazred]

Always been a big fan of Han and whilst he still has lots to learn he's played a lot of mins at this level already for a young'un. He's ceiling should still be quite high.

He didn't get a lot of game time under Holden, Pearson does seem to like him but i get the feeling he will see his medium term future somewhere else.

I think a lot comes down to the contract situation. Would not be surprised to see a move back to Ligue 1 in the summer if he doesn't extend.

[Clutton Caveman]

12 hours ago, REDOXO said:

Yes annoying isn’t it. But to be frank we are so crap he’s bound to lack a bit of confidence. 

Basically we have a team of young and lightweight youngsters trying to play a game plan that suits physically imposing players. No wonder those with a bit of ability lack confidence

[pongo88]

Every player has a price that City would be prepared to accept. Unfortunately I can’t foresee any club making any reasonable offers for any of the players. The best we can hope for is to give some players away (as with Nagy) or send them out on loan to reduce the wage bill. 

[DaveF]

3 hours ago, robin_unreliant said:

I'm not sure Massengo is going to morph into the amazing midfielder some are predicting. He isn't quick, doesn't have a good shot in him. Not a great range of pass and as he never takes set pieces I assume that isn't a strength. I can't see the fuss myself. 

Yes if he's not dribbling past 4 players,  scoring 30 yarders, playing Hollywood passes or taking corners and free kicks he must be rubbish.

[Redrascal2]

1 hour ago, DaveF said:

Yes if he's not dribbling past 4 players,  scoring 30 yarders, playing Hollywood passes or taking corners and free kicks he must be rubbish.

A few decent tackles might be useful for a midfield player as well.

[BigTone]

14 hours ago, REDOXO said:

Yes annoying isn’t it. But to be frank we are so crap he’s bound to lack a bit of confidence. 

And is Frank aware that you are making comments on his behalf ?

[Fuber]

14 hours ago, REDOXO said:

I agree. However Scott has as much potential and probably more than Massengo. IMO of course. 

Relative, I consider them to be different players. And there are other players I would shift before Massengo, especially in respect of wages.

Ideally, with the current squad, we need another right back as Vyner simply is not the answer in that role and Simpson is done. Tanner injured has highlighted this.

DaSilva and Palmer need selling to free up wages, period. May be we look to the loan market to allow scouting to take place and recruit in summer. Kalas I could see leaving to free up wages, which if combined with the former two, hopefully we can shift Wells even at a discount to free up a further £25kpw - gives us circa £70kpw, which when budgeted is three £1m signings at £8-10kpw wages, and maybe a loan or two.

I think we need to keep Massengo as we know he can actually perform at this level. Depends on contract negotiations. If it's not looking good then he's going to have to be sold in the summer anyway.

[REDOXO]

14 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Yeah, got something about him….but we aren’t selling him in the next two windows, which is when we need funds.

Glad to hear that. However i feel if we are approached at any decent level by any decent club he will be gone with the appropriate sell on the same as the rest of them. IMO we are not in a position to be to picky on where we raise the funds, no matter what the club propaganda/ists might say! 

44 minutes ago, Fuber said:

Relative, I consider them to be different players. And there are other players I would shift before Massengo, especially in respect of wages.

Ideally, with the current squad, we need another right back as Vyner simply is not the answer in that role and Simpson is done. Tanner injured has highlighted this.

DaSilva and Palmer need selling to free up wages, period. May be we look to the loan market to allow scouting to take place and recruit in summer. Kalas I could see leaving to free up wages, which if combined with the former two, hopefully we can shift Wells even at a discount to free up a further £25kpw - gives us circa £70kpw, which when budgeted is three £1m signings at £8-10kpw wages, and maybe a loan or two.

I think we need to keep Massengo as we know he can actually perform at this level. Depends on contract negotiations. If it's not looking good then he's going to have to be sold in the summer anyway.

Scott and Massengo are largely different players that is clear. However shifting players is a direct function of who wants them. We are not over burdened with players that have value, for any reason and we clearly need to move a few and free some wages. 
 

The players that some might want to keep are in all likelihood those with the most transfer value who could get a contract at a similar or better level elsewhere. 
 

DeSilva and Palmer (singling them out as you mentioned them) may want to play, but to what extent are they prepared to leave and get less money in order to have more chance of kicking a ball on match day. A question for them. 
 

We are in a terrible mess as a consequence of MA and LJ throwing money at anything and the “family” allowing it. 
 

On a slightly different note, Pearson has taken over this shit show and is trying to do something with what he has, kids, sick notes, lightweights and one or two seasoned pros. I am as infuriated as the next girl when we blow up but this rebuild will take the three years ascribed. That’s a fact. 

[fishy]

6 hours ago, robin_unreliant said:

I'm not sure Massengo is going to morph into the amazing midfielder some are predicting. He isn't quick, doesn't have a good shot in him. Not a great range of pass and as he never takes set pieces I assume that isn't a strength. I can't see the fuss myself. 

He's put in some amazing performances this season. Wins more tackles than he loses and some of the through balls he plays are amazing.  

Edited December 2, 2021 by fishy

[DaveF]

1 hour ago, Redrascal2 said:

A few decent tackles might be useful for a midfield player as well.

According to Whoscored he averages considerably higher tackles per game than Bakinson, Williams and King, and more interceptions than Bakinson, Williams, King and James. So he's actually pretty decent in that regard.

[P'head Red]

Just now, DaveF said:

According to Whoscored he averages considerably higher tackles per game than Bakinson, Williams and King, and more interceptions than Bakinson, Williams, King and James. So he's actually pretty decent in that regard.

Can't believe how many people in the thread don't rate him. One of the best (and youngest!) In the team

[Davefevs]

25 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Glad to hear that. However i feel if we are approached at any decent level by any decent club he will be gone with the appropriate sell on the same as the rest of them. IMO we are not in a position to be to picky on where we raise the funds, no matter what the club propaganda/ists might say! 

My statement was more that I don’t think anyone will come in for that soon, rather than us turning down offers.  As you say if someone offers us the right money, we will take it.

[Simon79]

7 minutes ago, P'head Red said:

Can't believe how many people in the thread don't rate him. One of the best (and youngest!) In the team

Never let anything on here surprise you! COYR 

[Redrascal2]

14 minutes ago, DaveF said:

According to Whoscored he averages considerably higher tackles per game than Bakinson, Williams and King, and more interceptions than Bakinson, Williams, King and James. So he's actually pretty decent in that regard.

I am sure you are right but I would not have believed it.

[SouthS22]

I can’t see that HNM will sign a new contract - why would a player with potential like him want to spend more years not developing his game under our current dinasour coaching? Work your arse off for 95 minutes trying to retrieve the ball that’s being constantly lost due to lumping it long either to a striker who is running away and hiding or to one who couldn’t make the ball stick if his boots were covered in superglue?  No thanks. In his place I’d be looking at better options.
 

So, yes, probably we have to see if another club wants to take him though it means another big loss on investment, because we won’t get what we put in but we have to get something.
 

Personally I’d love him to stay and be developed as he should be in a team that doesn’t just play hoof ball.  Apparently that’s not possible though because we’re in a ‘development phase’ where we can’t expect any actual passing and movement for at least another 2 years.  Far too late for HNM and probably a few others too.  I guess we should look to offload them all to free up funds for more Leicester old timers who can keep the bench and the treatment room warm. 

[robin_unreliant]

20 minutes ago, DaveF said:

According to Whoscored he averages considerably higher tackles per game than Bakinson, Williams and King, and more interceptions than Bakinson, Williams, King and James. So he's actually pretty decent in that regard.

OK @DaveF I can see you are a fan of his. I don't want to suggest he isn't any good. He's certainly had some good games and for his age has done pretty well. I get that there is more to football than worldie goals and defence-splitting passes. He has energy and effort no doubt. Jury is out on whether he has what it takes to command a significant fee for me though - at this point.

It's great winning tackles and intecepting passes but I'm not sure he does that well enough, without other aspects to his game, to attract a bigger club. 

[Numero Uno]

4 hours ago, DaveF said:

Yes if he's not dribbling past 4 players,  scoring 30 yarders, playing Hollywood passes or taking corners and free kicks he must be rubbish.

I suppose the question is, in how many games is it, when has Massengo scored from one yard let alone 30? I'm pretty sure he hasn't scored once yet, not ONE single goal in two and a half years, some potential that is - Scott has beat that and so will Benarous over the next few weeks. Even George sodding Tanner has beat that. When has he assisted one goal, let alone sprayed Hollywood passes about? Why is he behind an 18 year old kid in the set piece taking order? Have you ever seen him go past a couple of players and then follow it up with a FINAL BALL? Does he sink a few tackles and stop the opposition playing? Add all that together and I don't see anyone paying us £10m to take the lad off our hands, or even £2m for that matter. He seems to be a "nearly but not quite" player to me. Almost does something great, nearly had a great game blah blah.

For clubs to pay £10m for a young midfield player, which is the sort of dosh we would be looking as a return on Massengo given the outlay, there would have to be some evidence that the kid can take a game by the scruff of the neck. With Massengo there are bright bits of play but I'm struggling to see what he actually does in terms of affecting the game. I would rather not say that but I'm struggling to think anything else.

 

[Davefevs]

Alex Scott hasn’t scored yet

[Numero Uno]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Alex Scott hasn’t scored yet

He has.......or are you taking the piss out of another poster? Forest in case you have genuinely forgotten!!

Edited December 2, 2021 by Numero Uno

[Sir Geoff]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Alex Scott hasn’t scored yet

Forest Home

[robin_unreliant]

3 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

He has.......or are you taking the piss out of another poster?

It is nearly panto season after all - oh yes he has... 

Edited December 2, 2021 by robin_unreliant

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

He has.......or are you taking the piss out of another poster? Forest in case you have genuinely forgotten!!

I stand corrected.  Still trying to wipe the memory of injury time out of my system.

[ExiledAjax]

18 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Our squad’s value has dropped off a cliff.

If any of them were to be sold, I think our the highest fee we’d get would be for Kalas.  Problem is, he’s sat with an asset value of £3m in January, so we have to sell him for a fair chunk to have just to re-invest.  What might we get £5m, £6m at most if the right club came in.  And to be honest, controversial as it might sound, freeing up c£25k p.w. is not to be sniffed at.

Whilst I like Bentley, I’m sure from a scouting perspective you’d be highlighting command of his area, poor decision making with the ball in hand or at feet, starting position when ball is up the pitch is too deep.  I don’t think you’d get much more than we paid for him (£2-3m).

If Massengo was to be sold, any chance of a sizeable fee is based on potential…which is fair enough.  I think he will go on to very good things, chances are it won’t be with us. We’d be in a better position if we could get his contract extended first.

Beyond that I’m struggling.

It's not gospel, but transfermarkt broadly agrees with you. It has Kalas at 4.5m, and Bentley at 3m - they list in Euros of course, so in pounds you're looking at about 85% of those values.

They give Massengo a 4m Euro valuation, about £3.4m. About fair I'd think?

I'd not actually realised how inexperienced HNM still is. I think I see him as a key part of our squad now, but he's actually only got 66 league appearances for us. 25 in 19/20, 27 last season, and 14 so far this term. It's 4,387 minutes, equivalent to 48 games and 66 minutes. I don't know how relevant that is to his transfer value, probably less so than the length of his contract - which come the summer will have one year left I believe.

[Alessandro]

18 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Our squad’s value has dropped off a cliff.

If any of them were to be sold, I think our the highest fee we’d get would be for Kalas.  Problem is, he’s sat with an asset value of £3m in January, so we have to sell him for a fair chunk to have just to re-invest.  What might we get £5m, £6m at most if the right club came in.  And to be honest, controversial as it might sound, freeing up c£25k p.w. is not to be sniffed at.

Whilst I like Bentley, I’m sure from a scouting perspective you’d be highlighting command of his area, poor decision making with the ball in hand or at feet, starting position when ball is up the pitch is too deep.  I don’t think you’d get much more than we paid for him (£2-3m).

If Massengo was to be sold, any chance of a sizeable fee is based on potential…which is fair enough.  I think he will go on to very good things, chances are it won’t be with us. We’d be in a better position if we could get his contract extended first.

Beyond that I’m struggling.

A sobering analysis there Dave.

I'd add, that purely from a non-statistical, fans emotional view point, every transfer window I also think about the players i'd be worried about losing - I genuinely wouldn't be concerned about losing any player this Jan from the first team squad, bar perhaps Kalas. You might have said Williams but now he's out till Jan I can't see him going. 

(I'd be sad to see Scott or Benerous go but I don't think we'd be pushed into selling them anytime soon)

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

It's not gospel, but transfermarkt broadly agrees with you. It has Kalas at 4.5m, and Bentley at 3m - they list in Euros of course, so in pounds you're looking at about 85% of those values.

They give Massengo a 4m Euro valuation, about £3.4m. About fair I'd think?

I'd not actually realised how inexperienced HNM still is. I think I see him as a key part of our squad now, but he's actually only got 66 league appearances for us. 25 in 19/20, 27 last season, and 14 so far this term. It's 4,387 minutes, equivalent to 48 games and 66 minutes. I don't know how relevant that is to his transfer value, probably less so than the length of his contract - which come the summer will have one year left I believe.

As you know I have a dash on tableau with amortisation year on year, and I think at this current time with the depressed transfer market, any fee you can get over amortised value for the likes of Kalas, Bentley and Massengo will be good.  For other players, Wells, Palmer, value will be lower than their amortised value.  And that is gonna be the balancing act for FFP for the next 6,12,18 months.

Where we can repair the damage is with the likes of Semenyo, Scott, Benarous, Conway, etc who cost us nothing, Tanner who cost us next to nothing, and Atkinson who will hopefully grow into a high value player.  But it requires careful balancing of the books in the meantime.

Bit depressing isn’t it.

[spudski]

I'm not sure how any of us can decide who would be beneficial to sell or keep.

Firstly...we need to know what type of football wishes to play. Do we know that yet...I certainly don't.

Once we know that...you buy, keep or release, depending on who suits.

Imo...you can't just buy and sell regardless. Massengo might be perfect for what NP wants...or he might be useless...we just don't know.

Players on paper are one thing, they are completely useless if they don't fit a system. 

Galiticos don't work...a team works.

[TBW]

When does Chelsea's option to buy run out?...

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Any thoughts on Fisher at MK Dons Dave?

Think he's got potential as a decent goalkeeper, could be an area we 'trade'.

23 now, so room to improve still. And if they fail to go up probably won't have too high of a fee.

No, not really.  If we are talking highlights on Quest type stuff he looks solid, decent build.

Im sure others have seen much more of him than me.

[ExiledAjax]

21 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Bit depressing isn’t it.

What is? The general lack of funding available due to the need to comply with P&S or the fact that because of that we will be selling the young academy trained, sometimes Bristol born, lads in order to keep/fund the retention or purchase of older expensive guys who have no attachment to the Club or area? For me its the latter. I hope one day I get to see a Bristol born academy player play the bulk of his career at Ashton Gate, but I suspect it is unlikely.

I know that is a romantic hope, and football is business, and business is money. But it still depresses me to see us selling Kelly, Bryan, Reid, and likely Conway, Scott (yes I know he is from Guernsey) and others whilst paying god knows how much to Martin, Wells, O'dowda and the litany of others that have passed through our Club's doors.

[Davefevs]

Just now, ExiledAjax said:

What is? The general lack of funding available due to the need to comply with P&S or the fact that because of that we will be selling the young academy trained, sometimes Bristol born, lads in order to keep/fund the retention or purchase of older expensive guys who have no attachment to the Club or area? For me its the latter. I hope one day I get to see a Bristol born academy player play the bulk of his career at Ashton Gate, but I suspect it is unlikely.

I know that is a romantic hope, and football is business, and business is money. But it still depresses me to see us selling Kelly, Bryan, Reid, and likely Conway, Scott (yes I know he is from Guernsey) and others whilst paying god knows how much to Martin, Wells, O'dowda and the litany of others that have passed through our Club's doors.

Nice yin-yang

[maxjak]

Give the kid a pheckin break................he is 20 years of age, he will get better, given time.   The idea of trying to sell HNM is a  dumb idea, and should not be even considered IMHO.  We should be extending his contract.........and NOT even contemplating selling him.            

[ExiledAjax]

31 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Nice yin-yang

I'm feeling miserable now 

I don't want to sell HNM. If what you are saying is that unless we get >his amortisation value then it's not financially worth it, then that gives me some hope of retaining him this season.

Personally I'd say he should get an extension. Hypothetically if we extend him for three years, he's then contracted until 2026. Therefore come summer 2025 we would have a player with a year on his contract, aged 24, with something in the region of 200 Championship appearances* under his belt, and more than 13,000 minutes played for BCFC** (all assuming no further major injuries, continued selection etc, etc.). Correct me if I am wrong as well but by that point his initial transfer fee would have been amortised away, and his only cost to us would be wages, so any fee received would be pure profit? If so then I'd say that would be the time to sell him.

It's long term planning, and obviously there are so many unknowns between now and summer 2025, but to cash in now, even in the dire straits that we are in, would seem short-sighted.

*the maximum would be 230 - there's 26 more games this season, plus a maximum of 138 across 2022/23, 2023/24, and 2024/25, add that to his 66 current league apps and it's 230.

**200 multiplied by his current average of 66.5 minutes per app.

2 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

when has Massengo scored from one yard let alone 30? I'm pretty sure he hasn't scored once yet

He's actually never scored a professional goal, at any club, or for the French age group teams he has played for. He has two assists, both for Monaco B in the fourth tier of French football. It's not what he does, and isn't just whilst playing for us that he's not directly contributed to the final stages of sticking the thing in the net.

Edited December 2, 2021 by ExiledAjax

[Numero Uno]

33 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Give the kid a pheckin break................he is 20 years of age, he will get better, given time.   The idea of trying to sell HNM is a  dumb idea, and should not be even considered IMHO.  We should be extending his contract.........and NOT even contemplating selling him.            

I don’t think anyone is saying Massengo is shit BUT going back to the original post could we sell him for an amount that would be worth considering?

If I was a Prem chasing or Prem team what would he give me in terms of a significant outlay? Does he get you a goal? Does he set up goals for others? If neither of those is he a lower league Kante that breaks up opposition play? If I’m paying millions I want him to PRODUCE on a regular basis not have fleeting good moments.

He’s still relatively young and should get better but my point is I look at Scott who is two years behind HNM in development and the kid has an occasional goal threat and produces a very decent set piece delivery. He has the tools to affect a game that I want to see more of from HNM tbh.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Numero Uno

[Dullmoan Tone]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

Personally I'd say he should get an extension. Hypothetically if we extend him for three years,

I cannot see any scenario where he would sign an extension- City cannot and should not, make an eye watering offer (he doesn’t impact games enough to warrant this) and he will make more money with a signing on fee and probably accelerate his career away from us - it’s the grim reality of where we are !

[Davefevs]

50 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

I'm feeling miserable now 

I don't want to sell HNM. If what you are saying is that unless we get >his amortisation value then it's not financially worth it, then that gives me some hope of retaining him this season.

Personally I'd say he should get an extension. Hypothetically if we extend him for three years, he's then contracted until 2026. Therefore come summer 2025 we would have a player with a year on his contract, aged 24, with something in the region of 200 Championship appearances* under his belt, and more than 13,000 minutes played for BCFC** (all assuming no further major injuries, continued selection etc, etc.). Correct me if I am wrong as well but by that point his initial transfer fee would have been amortised away, and his only cost to us would be wages, so any fee received would be pure profit? If so then I'd say that would be the time to sell him.

It's long term planning, and obviously there are so many unknowns between now and summer 2025, but to cash in now, even in the dire straits that we are in, would seem short-sighted.

*the maximum would be 230 - there's 26 more games this season, plus a maximum of 138 across 2022/23, 2023/24, and 2024/25, add that to his 66 current league apps and it's 230.

**200 multiplied by his current average of 66.5 minutes per app.

He's actually never scored a professional goal, at any club, or for the French age group teams he has played for. He has two assists, both for Monaco B in the fourth tier of French football. It's not what he does, and isn't just whilst playing for us that he's not directly contributed to the final stages of sticking the thing in the net.

Re amortisation, if we extended his contract in January, you’d take the value at that point and spread it out over the remaining term.

For example, his contract is worth about £1.05m in January (exp 2023), so if you extended until 2026, he’d have 4 1/2 years left, so his contract would be worth £233k in summer 2025.

That make sense?

37 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I don’t think anyone is saying Massengo is shit BUT going back to the original post could we sell him for an amount that would be worth considering?

If I was a Prem chasing or Prem team what would he give me in terms of a significant outlay? Does he get you a goal? Does he set up goals for others? If neither of those is he a lower league Kante that breaks up opposition play? If I’m paying millions I want him to PRODUCE on a regular basis not have fleeting good moments.

He’s still relatively young and should get better but my point is I look at Scott who is two years behind HNM in development and the kid has an occasional goal threat and produces a very decent set piece delivery. He has the tools to affect a game that I want to see more of from HNM tbh.

What we have seen this season is an improvement in what he does in the final third.  I’m not a big fan of the “hockey assist” (second assist) per se, but there is something in the notion of the importance of the player that assists the assister.  Can’t remember which club opposition analyst it was who spotted that player x got lots of assists, but in the 50 passes he received each game, it was the passes from player y which generally were the ones that led to an assist.  It was player y’s passes that were the ones that found him in the pocket of space that enabled player x to assist player z.

I’m not saying Han is anything like that kind of threat, but I’m also not convinced comparing Alex Scott’s 1s and 0s at this point has tonnes of relevance, as they have played very different roles.  Even against Cardiff when Han played RM, it was a more disciplined role than when Alex Scott played it, which was more like a right winger.  Haha, the bizarre thing was that Han got 2 hockey assists in that game, but I don’t think you’d label a pass to Vyner (assist for Weimann) particularly worthy, but the back-heel to Semenyo (assist for Weimann) you might.

At the point he got injured right at the end of QPR (another hockey assist and some penetrating runs and shots) I thought we were starting to see the best of Han since his early days here.  That injury has knocked him back a bit.  Needs to rebuild his confidence again

Scott, I really like, he’s a baller no doubt, but he’s very different to Han.  If James or Williams were fit, having both of them in alongside / just in front has a nice feel to it, a nice blend.  I could see Alex making himself available really early to get quick passes of Han / Joe / Matty, and bring real tempo to our attacks.

As it currently stands Massengo isn’t gonna fetch £10m.  In some respects that’s good, get him tied down here as per ExiledAjax above, and let him continue his development.  In 18 months, Scott, Williams, Massengo and Benarous might be the transition from mixed / direct football to a passing style so many fans want.   

 

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

I cannot see any scenario where he would sign an extension- City cannot and should not, make an eye watering offer (he doesn’t impact games enough to warrant this) and he will make more money with a signing on fee and probably accelerate his career away from us - it’s the grim reality of where we are !

For me there’s a simple scenario - he’s happy here, he’s getting games, he’s improving, he’s appreciated by the manager.  We will have to wait and see if that scenario plays out.  I don’t think that is far fetched though.  There are no whispers of interest are there?

Richard Gould said they are looking to get him signed up.  Could’ve been an answer not thought through, we’ll have to see.

[Waconda]

On 01/12/2021 at 22:33, Davefevs said:

Our squad’s value has dropped off a cliff.

If any of them were to be sold, I think our the highest fee we’d get would be for Kalas.  Problem is, he’s sat with an asset value of £3m in January, so we have to sell him for a fair chunk to have just to re-invest.  What might we get £5m, £6m at most if the right club came in.  And to be honest, controversial as it might sound, freeing up c£25k p.w. is not to be sniffed at.

Whilst I like Bentley, I’m sure from a scouting perspective you’d be highlighting command of his area, poor decision making with the ball in hand or at feet, starting position when ball is up the pitch is too deep.  I don’t think you’d get much more than we paid for him (£2-3m).

If Massengo was to be sold, any chance of a sizeable fee is based on potential…which is fair enough.  I think he will go on to very good things, chances are it won’t be with us. We’d be in a better position if we could get his contract extended first.

Beyond that I’m struggling.

Transfer values have collapsed for every club to be fair, not just us. Their are several Championship clubs in a far worse situation than us re-wages especially.

We do seem very keen to catastrophize our situation in squad strength and value.

It is a relative, we are not operating inside a " Bristol City disaster bubble".

[Davefevs]

46 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Transfer values have collapsed for every club to be fair, not just us. Their are several Championship clubs in a far worse situation than us re-wages especially.

We do seem very keen to catastrophize our situation in squad strength and value.

It is a relative, we are not operating inside a " Bristol City disaster bubble".

The point is, few clubs became as hugely reliant on it (transfer profit) as an income stream as we did.  It’s not catastrophising (you like that word don’t you?) it, it’s a genuine worry.  When your owner comes out and says the accounts will be “horrible”, do you sit there and ignore it.  Clubs like Blackburn managed to get rid of Armstrong for £15m (£10m after sell-ons to Newcastle), and their training ground to give them some breathing space, but nor did they have a cost base anywhere near ours.

key: green - still getting PPs.

yellow - no longer getting PPs this season.

red - in trouble (points deduction)

I’d say our “well run club” is one if the most impacted by the collapse of the transfer market because of the way we allowed costs to rise to quickly (with little value in return).  Why do you think we didn’t replace all the players that left in the summer?

I don’t think there are many clubs in a far worse wage situation than us?  Out of interest who are you thinking of, that hasn’t currently got, or had the backing of PPs?  Stoke are the only one I genuinely think might be, but they’ve got another season’s grace before they start to have to think about seriously cutting back.

I certainly wouldn’t be sitting there thinking “it’s ok, there are others worse off”.

[Waconda]

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

The point is, few clubs became as hugely reliant on it (transfer profit) as an income stream as we did.  It’s not catastrophising (you like that word don’t you?) it, it’s a genuine worry.  When your owner comes out and says the accounts will be “horrible”, do you sit there and ignore it.  Clubs like Blackburn managed to get rid of Armstrong for £15m (£10m after sell-ons to Newcastle), and their training ground to give them some breathing space, but nor did they have a cost base anywhere near ours.

key: green - still getting PPs.

yellow - no longer getting PPs this season.

red - in trouble (points deduction)

I’d say our “well run club” is one if the most impacted by the collapse of the transfer market because of the way we allowed costs to rise to quickly (with little value in return).  Why do you think we didn’t replace all the players that left in the summer?

I don’t think there are many clubs in a far worse wage situation than us?  Out of interest who are you thinking of, that hasn’t currently got, or had the backing of PPs?  Stoke are the only one I genuinely think might be, but they’ve got another season’s grace before they start to have to think about seriously cutting back.

I certainly wouldn’t be sitting there thinking “it’s ok, there are others worse off”.

Sure I read that Preston spend 143% of their income on players wages  (ours is around 101% ? I'm sure you will have a chart for this).

They now have no market to sell their normally bang average players to top up the £6 million a year Trevor Hemmings was/is pumping into the club, they have no other revenue streams like us. I would say in that scenario they are worse off.

Just one example.

Found the chart I was thinking of, it is 3 years old but shows without a transfer fees many clubs are going to be in trouble. Not saying our situation isn't bad but we certainly aren't the only ones.

Edited December 3, 2021 by VT05763

[Waconda]

31 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Sure I read that Preston spend 143% of their income on players wages  (ours is around 101% ? I'm sure you will have a chart for this).

They now have no market to sell their normally bang average players to top up the £6 million a year Trevor Hemmings was/is pumping into the club, they have no other revenue streams like us. I would say in that scenario they are worse off.

Just one example.

Found the chart I was thinking of, it is 3 years old but shows without a transfer fees many clubs are going to be in trouble. Not saying our situation isn't bad but we certainly aren't the only ones.

Blackburn, Preston, Birmingham and Forest.

[maxjak]

14 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

I don’t think anyone is saying Massengo is shit BUT going back to the original post could we sell him for an amount that would be worth considering?

If I was a Prem chasing or Prem team what would he give me in terms of a significant outlay? Does he get you a goal? Does he set up goals for others? If neither of those is he a lower league Kante that breaks up opposition play? If I’m paying millions I want him to PRODUCE on a regular basis not have fleeting good moments.

He’s still relatively young and should get better but my point is I look at Scott who is two years behind HNM in development and the kid has an occasional goal threat and produces a very decent set piece delivery. He has the tools to affect a game that I want to see more of from HNM tbh.

Players develop at different rates, I feel certain that HNM will come good, I have no evidence,, it's  just my opinion.  It doesn't help that the standard of coaching at City leaves a lot to be desired IMHO. So there is a case for him to get better coaching elsewhere, but i hope he stays.   Fortunately they didn't get hold of Scott until he was 16.........Ha!

[Numero Uno]

3 hours ago, VT05763 said:

Sure I read that Preston spend 143% of their income on players wages  (ours is around 101% ? I'm sure you will have a chart for this).

They now have no market to sell their normally bang average players to top up the £6 million a year Trevor Hemmings was/is pumping into the club, they have no other revenue streams like us. I would say in that scenario they are worse off.

Just one example.

Found the chart I was thinking of, it is 3 years old but shows without a transfer fees many clubs are going to be in trouble. Not saying our situation isn't bad but we certainly aren't the only ones.

Our average weekly wage of £14k at that point is interesting. Did we get value for money? Did we ****!! This is where we have to careful slating Pearson who has been asked to reduce costs AND try and make us competitive at the same time. Without a major influx of players he has a job on his hands as would the next manager if we canned Pearson. In fact what Manager worth his salt would take us on?

Edited December 3, 2021 by Numero Uno

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, VT05763 said:

Sure I read that Preston spend 143% of their income on players wages  (ours is around 101% ? I'm sure you will have a chart for this).

They now have no market to sell their normally bang average players to top up the £6 million a year Trevor Hemmings was/is pumping into the club, they have no other revenue streams like us. I would say in that scenario they are worse off.

Just one example.

Found the chart I was thinking of, it is 3 years old but shows without a transfer fees many clubs are going to be in trouble. Not saying our situation isn't bad but we certainly aren't the only ones.

Yeah, several clubs with wages more than turnover.

Its the “other costs” like amortisation and stuff like that widens the jaws between income and overall costs. 

If we go back to City in 15/16.

Income £14.2m Costs £26.7m Wages £17.4m (122% of income 65% of costs) - loss £12.5m (before transfers)

in 19/20

Income £27.9m Costs £62.6m Wages £33.5m (120% of income 54% of costs) - loss £34.7m (before transfers)

Thise other costs as above include amortisation (fees) which grew from £2.7m in 15/16 to £14m in 19/20.  So whilst wages as a ratio of income hasn’t changed much, other things have.  And it’s that which is dragging us into a difficult financial position.

2 hours ago, VT05763 said:

Blackburn, Preston, Birmingham and Forest.

Preston on the other hand.

15/16

Income £10.6m Costs £15m Wages £9m (85% of income 60% of costs) loss of £4.4m (no transfer profit)

19/20

Income £12.6m Costs £29.7m Wages £20.4m (162% of income 69% of costs loss £17.1m (before transfers - £7.9m made)

So, whilst I agree they will definitely need to get wages under control, their losses even without much transfer activity are in the range of the limits of FFP, whereas ours are double.

Ultimately we became a bit of a juggernaut of cost, or a bit like EverGiven stuck in the Suez!!  It’s gonna take some turning around.

Blackburn, as above sold their training ground and Armstrong, plus their cost base is £34.2m not £62.6m!  That’s 55% of ours.  Richard Gould - we need to maximise what we get back for every £1 we spend.  Blackburn doing well on just over half our budget.

Birmingham sold Adams and Bellingham in recent seasons and are back on a more even keel.

Forest are the club I see quite like us.  Cost base of £49.4m, still 21% less than us.  Plus sold Matty Cash last season, which will help.  One to keep an eye on.  As above, next season Stoke might become the one to see in trouble.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Davefevs

[Waconda]

3 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Our average weekly wage of £14k at that point is interesting. Did we get value for money? Did we ****!! This is where we have to careful slating Pearson who has been asked to reduce costs AND try and make us competitive at the same time. Without a major influx of players he has a job on his hands as would the next manager if we canned Pearson. In fact what Manager worth his salt would take us on?

Would be interesting to see where our average salary table position is in relation with our current league position.

Pearson who has been asked to reduce costs AND try and make us competitive at the same time - He has certainly struggled with that and as you say perhaps anyone would have but that is "ifs, whats and maybes".

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Would be interesting to see where our average salary table position is in relation with our current league position.

Pearson who has been asked to reduce costs AND try and make us competitive at the same time - He has certainly struggled with that and as you say perhaps anyone would have but that is "ifs, whats and maybes".

Take the source of data for what it is, Football manager will be a decent enough ballpark.

This is worth a read, if only for the pics.

https://andywatsonsport.wordpress.com/2021/12/02/wage-budgets-in-the-championship-does-spending-more-mean-more-points/

It probably highlights that we are wasting wages on players who aren’t starting, e.g. Palmer and Wells.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Davefevs

[KegCity]

2 minutes ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Ah, Massengo, a player who is a fish out of water here, mainly because he's on a different level to the rest of the team, his awareness and perception means he's about 5 steps ahead of others and what he tries to do wont come to fruition. 

He's the sort of player us city fans dont get as everything has to be measured in goals, we had the same with, Josh Brownhill, Cole Skuse, Bobby Reid (when in midfield) among others. 

We've been crying out for an energetic midfielder who covers a shed tonne of ground tackles and tries to make possession and or start attacks, but the rest of the team are not there. Could see him move further forward where his football brain would be put to better use, and cant see him go anywhere but upwards and would probably fit in a Brighton/Norwich/Villa or even the Lingard role from Westham last season. 

Spot on. He'll flourish in a side that plays good football. Would be nice to see him having more attacking freedom where he can press from the front and turn the ball over quickly, but that doesn't suit the rest of the squad.

Think he'll go back to France and do well.

[Eddie Hitler]

3 minutes ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Ah, Massengo, a player who is a fish out of water here, mainly because he's on a different level to the rest of the team, his awareness and perception means he's about 5 steps ahead of others and what he tries to do wont come to fruition. 

He's the sort of player us city fans dont get as everything has to be measured in goals, we had the same with, Josh Brownhill, Cole Skuse, Bobby Reid (when in midfield) among others. 

We've been crying out for an energetic midfielder who covers a shed tonne of ground tackles and tries to make possession and or start attacks, but the rest of the team are not there. Could see him move further forward where his football brain would be put to better use, and cant see him go anywhere but upwards and would probably fit in a Brighton/Norwich/Villa or even the Lingard role from Westham last season. 

 

Agreed, I remember seeing a few Martin Kuhl moments like that when he would put through a defence splitting ball only for our forwards to be slow to react.

That isn't a criticism of our team but rather that much of what you are paying for with the best creative players is a waste of money unless you have similar players around them.

Put Lionel Messi in the Accrington squad and he will be a shadow of himself.

[Numero Uno]

3 hours ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

Agreed, I remember seeing a few Martin Kuhl moments like that when he would put through a defence splitting ball only for our forwards to be slow to react.

That isn't a criticism of our team but rather that much of what you are paying for with the best creative players is a waste of money unless you have similar players around them.

Put Lionel Messi in the Accrington squad and he will be a shadow of himself.

He'd still score goals rather than none in two and a half years though. It's not a Massengo bashing exercise, more a case of wanting to see him reach the next level and see something measurable in his performance. As someone else mentioned the kid has not scored a PROFESSIONAL GOAL having played a considerable number of games, not one, which from a player being described as creative and for the ability we know he has is simply not good enough and certainly won't see us recoup the considerable outlay we have made on him AT THE MOMENT. Players have to produce at the level we play at, it's a tough business, and that's something Massengo needs to add to his game.

[PHILINFRANCE]

10 hours ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Ah, Massengo, a player who is a fish out of water here, mainly because he's on a different level to the rest of the team, his awareness and perception means he's about 5 steps ahead of others and what he tries to do wont come to fruition. 

He's the sort of player us city fans dont get as everything has to be measured in goals, we had the same with, Josh Brownhill, Cole Skuse, Bobby Reid (when in midfield) among others. 

I have no idea how old you are, but your observation could apply equally to a young Gerry Gow, when he first broke in to City's first team.

His awareness and ability to spot a move was so far ahead of his teamates that, at times, they would shout at him when he made a fantastic pass (to which they were too slow to react) and some of the crowd would boo him (plus ca change....).

Sitting in what was then The Grand Stand, however, we could see exactly what he was trying to do, although, magnanimously, we would refrain from booing the rest of the team .