Pen / Dive / looking for it . Quest.

[1960maaan]

Their version had Semenyo sticking his leg out to get a Pen. A player who is on fire and getting his first run of goals. A player, by their words, who has been involved in 9 goals in last 8 appearances. A player that has the legs of the defender and running non Goal.  Personally I don't think so.
TBF I get why they are trying to say that, Semenyo's foot hits the back of the guy's leg, but it's because he's running across AS's line, IMO any way.

Here you go.

 

For me, he try to do exactly what Dean Ashton says he would do, the defender trips him. Semenyo doesn't reach his leg out to get tripped , he goes for the ball.  You just know, our next Pen, due about 2025, will be a soft one after having 3 actual assaults turned down.
Anyway, screen shot below. For me shows he is just running towards the ball. The other I thought was a Pen, on HNM, I guess we will have to wait to see if they publish the full 90 to see it.

[Sleepy1968]

I think it's less obvious than when I saw it "live" (RobinsTV), but I'd still give us a pen. But it's probably 50/50 given that he'd played the ball slightly into the defender's path and he didn't get his leg in front of the defender.

[GrahamC]

Scott v QPR & Forest, the one in the opening minutes at Coventry that should have seen their keeper sent off, Dasilva at Fulham.

Something doesn’t add up, you can be unlucky once or twice but we consistently don’t get clear penalties awarded.

For what it’s worth I think on the balance of probability you get one of these two (the push for me is the stronger one) but in isolation I can see why neither were awarded more than I can the 4 I mentioned above.

[IAmNick]

Check out the clip I posted yesterday: https://streamja.com/29M0k

First angle for me he's mid dive when he gets clipped, or at least a pretty unnatural leg movement

[Midred]

Players dive all the time. Is it a case with refs that some players have been awarded so many pens that the next incident must be a penalty too?

[spudski]

1 hour ago, 1960maaan said:

Their version had Semenyo sticking his leg out to get a Pen. A player who is on fire and getting his first run of goals. A player, by their words, who has been involved in 9 goals in last 8 appearances. A player that has the legs of the defender and running non Goal.  Personally I don't think so.
TBF I get why they are trying to say that, Semenyo's foot hits the back of the guy's leg, but it's because he's running across AS's line, IMO any way.

Here you go.

 

For me, he try to do exactly what Dean Ashton says he would do, the defender trips him. Semenyo doesn't reach his leg out to get tripped , he goes for the ball.  You just know, our next Pen, due about 2025, will be a soft one after having 3 actual assaults turned down.
Anyway, screen shot below. For me shows he is just running towards the ball. The other I thought was a Pen, on HNM, I guess we will have to wait to see if they publish the full 90 to see it.

It's clever play from Semenyo, it's what you do as a forward in that situation. Play it across the defenders path...they either have to pull out of the tackle, or do what's happened here.

It's a penalty all day long. 

Semenyo was too strong and fast for him...

[cityexile]

32 minutes ago, spudski said:

It's clever play from Semenyo, it's what you do as a forward in that situation. Play it across the defenders path...they either have to pull out of the tackle, or do what's happened here.

It's a penalty all day long. 

Semenyo was too strong and fast for him...

I think he is trying to go past their player and at the same time is looking for it, if that makes any sense.

I don’t think it ‘should’ be a penalty, but in the modern game almost certainly is. Sterling has made a career of getting penalties like that. If it’s given it’s a ‘forward has done the defender there’.

Equally, not the sort of penalty we are being given.

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, IAmNick said:

Check out the clip I posted yesterday: https://streamja.com/29M0k

First angle for me he's mid dive when he gets clipped, or at least a pretty unnatural leg movement

The opponent does not have to concede space there as he is in playable distance of the ball. Semenyo can't play the ball into the opponents path and then clip his opponent to gain a penalty. 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Cowshed

[JoeAman08]

4 minutes ago, cityexile said:

I think he is trying to go past their player and at the same time is looking for it, if that makes any sense.

I don’t think it ‘should’ be a penalty, but in the modern game almost certainly is. Sterling has made a career of getting penalties like that. If it’s given it’s a ‘forward has done the defender there’.

Equally, not the sort of penalty we are being given.

100% looking for it like all strikers would. As said, he changed the angle to cut across the defender. It is the defenders responsibility to pull out of the challenge or give away the foul. You can say that is a no win for the defender but is the price he pays for allowing AS to go past him in the first place. 

[Slippin cider]

For me, the ref wasn’t in a good enough position to not give it and with no VAR it’s a pen . 

[Cowshed]

Just now, JoeAman08 said:

100% looking for it like all strikers would. As said, he changed the angle to cut across the defender. It is the defenders responsibility to pull out of the challenge or give away the foul. You can say that is a no win for the defender but is the price he pays for allowing AS to go past him in the first place. 

It is not defenders responsibilty to alter his path. Semenyo has to run around him and fails to do so.  

[cityexile]

Just now, Cowshed said:

It is not defenders responsibilty to alter his path. Semenyo has to run around him and fails to do so.  

That is the case for the defence.

I think Sem plays it too much in to the defenders path. At that stage the defender is ahead of Sem, closer to the ball and ‘in possession’. In the refs view then Sem essentially clips him from behind.

Its fractional in truth, but not one like the QPR one which was stonewall.

[JoeAman08]

1 minute ago, Cowshed said:

It is not defenders responsibilty to alter his path. Semenyo has to run around him and fails to do so.  

Semenyo is past him. The defender bungling into him is unlucky but it is clumsy. He also doesn’t try to play the ball. He just runs into him. It is a pen and one you’d expected given 90% of the time. It is given even more a division higher. 

[Maltshoveller]

5 minutes ago, Slippin cider said:

For me, the ref wasn’t in a good enough position to not give it and with no VAR it’s a pen . 

If the ref wasnt in a good enough position How could he give the pen?

[JoeAman08]

13 minutes ago, Slippin cider said:

For me, the ref wasn’t in a good enough position to not give it and with no VAR it’s a pen . 

Which is a different issue. How can you expect good decisions from blokes in their mid 40s or older to keep up with the likes of Semenyo and Pring after running around for 90 min himself. Lino on the other side for both incidents too. I don’t think he was good but not an easy task. 

[steveybadger]

Kicking a defender’s leg who is already in front of you is a foul. For the defender.

[Mendip Broadwalk]

Should have rinsed the defender instead of chucking himself on the deck.

Reffing today any of thatg it will be that was a shit touch stay on your feet next time please.

[Slippin cider]

4 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

Which is a different issue. How can you expect good decisions from blokes in their mid 40s or older to keep up with the likes of Semenyo and Pring after running around for 90 min himself. Lino on the other side for both incidents too. I don’t think he was good but not an easy task. 

Very good point , not an easy task at all , I wouldn’t want the job .

[Clevedon Red]

Jamie Vardy is an expert at getting pens like this. Semenyo puts his leg in between the defender trying for a pen in my view. 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Clevedon Red

[Engvall’s Splinter]

Would be disappointed if it was given against us. Would’ve been a soft pen for me. 

[Slippin cider]

14 minutes ago, Maltshoveller said:

If the ref wasnt in a good enough position How could he give the pen?

But if he was and still didn’t ….VAR would have sorted it to an extent but even that isn’t the be all and end all .

[Kid in the Riot]

The defender didn't commit a foul so no penalty. It really should be that simple. 

[Maltshoveller]

1 minute ago, Slippin cider said:

But if he was and still didn’t ….VAR would have sorted it to an extent but even that isn’t the be all and end all .

VAR would not have changed it As it was not an obvious mistake 

[Slippin cider]

3 minutes ago, Maltshoveller said:

VAR would not have changed it As it was not an obvious mistake 

On another day it might have been given but it wasn’t so doesn’t make any difference. NP saw it as a pen .Very difficult for the guy in the middle and assistants ,as we know, some are better than others at making the correct calls. Can only give what they see etc 

[cityexile]

16 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

The defender didn't commit a foul so no penalty. It really should be that simple. 

It’s one of those. From the clip, watching the knees of the defender he catches him. Watching Sems right leg his last step is certainly unnatural.

Alongside this, 

https://streamja.com/KLr5v

Sem plays the ball wide knowing he is then going to get clattered. Cynically, you get one of those if you are near the top it seems. To be clear, I think the ref got both just about right, but he is being given a decision to make.

Edited January 30, 2022 by cityexile

[grifty]

Not a stonewaller, but it's a pen for me.

I was surprised Pearson said about Pring at the end being fouled, that looked a good tackle to me.

[Super]

2 minutes ago, grifty said:

Not a stonewaller, but it's a pen for me.

I was surprised Pearson said about Pring at the end being fouled, that looked a good tackle to me.

Maybe he read this forum.

[MC RISK77]

Definitely not a penalty- diving to gain an unfair advantage is absolutely part of the game and a skill in itself.

[JoeAman08]

3 minutes ago, MC RISK77 said:

Definitely not a penalty- diving to gain an unfair advantage is absolutely part of the game and a skill in itself.

What do you mean by diving? There was no dive in this scenario. I can see why people say it is or it isn’t. I can’t see why anyone would think semenyo dived

[Southport Red]

45 minutes ago, cityexile said:

It’s one of those. From the clip, watching the knees of the defender he catches him. Watching Sems right leg his last step is certainly unnatural.

Alongside this, 

https://streamja.com/KLr5v

Sem plays the ball wide knowing he is then going to get clattered. Cynically, you get one of those if you are near the top it seems. To be clear, I think the ref got both just about right, but he is being given a decision to make.

Didn’t get it right though because he gave PNE a free kick. Either pen or nothing at all surely, how has Semenyo conceded a free kick there?

[Port Said Red]

His leg only looks in an "unnatural position" because he is changing direction.  He hasn't left it hanging like a Ronaldo type of challenge. A penalty. The other challenge on him on the other side of the box was a great tackle.

[Southport Red]

5 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

His leg only looks in an "unnatural position" because he is changing direction.  He hasn't left it hanging like a Ronaldo type of challenge. A penalty. The other challenge on him on the other side of the box was a great tackle.

Yeah, I agree, had a great view of the other one, deffo no penalty. The tackle on Pring was a fk all day long, the guy did play the ball but it was a tackle from behind. Had a great view of both incidents. 

[italian dave]

1 hour ago, Slippin cider said:

For me, the ref wasn’t in a good enough position to not give it and with no VAR it’s a pen . 

Whether he was in a good position or not is debateable. But if you’re saying he wasn’t in a good enough position to see it properly, then he’s not going to give it, is he? He should only give it if he’s certain. 

[MarcusX]

53 minutes ago, grifty said:

Not a stonewaller, but it's a pen for me.

I was surprised Pearson said about Pring at the end being fouled, that looked a good tackle to me.

Looked 100% a foul from the PNE fan footage posted on here yesterday and Twitter

[italian dave]

3 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

Their version had Semenyo sticking his leg out to get a Pen. A player who is on fire and getting his first run of goals. A player, by their words, who has been involved in 9 goals in last 8 appearances. A player that has the legs of the defender and running non Goal.  Personally I don't think so.
TBF I get why they are trying to say that, Semenyo's foot hits the back of the guy's leg, but it's because he's running across AS's line, IMO any way.

Here you go.

 

For me, he try to do exactly what Dean Ashton says he would do, the defender trips him. Semenyo doesn't reach his leg out to get tripped , he goes for the ball.  You just know, our next Pen, due about 2025, will be a soft one after having 3 actual assaults turned down.
Anyway, screen shot below. For me shows he is just running towards the ball. The other I thought was a Pen, on HNM, I guess we will have to wait to see if they publish the full 90 to see it.

Have to say that pretty much confirms the view I had of it at the time yesterday.

Probably not a pen. But how it’s a foul by Semenyo is beyond me.

No way it was a dive, and I don’t think he was ‘looking for it’ either - he was just trying to make it difficult for the defender to track his run - what any decent forward would do. 

Edited January 30, 2022 by italian dave

[Furious Custard]

Looking back at it I agree with the ref. Semenyo sticks his leg out into the defending player looking to create a decision for the ref to make.

[MarcusX]

This is why Var is flawed, so many different opinions/perspectives of the same footage. No one is necessarily right or wrong either.

I think it’s a pen, clever play from Semenyo exactly what he should be doing there, drive across the defender and he either has to let you go or foul you.

That said, in slow mo I don’t think he’s quite got ahead or across the defender in time to “perfect” it there

[Offside]

These probably get given a lot but I don’t think it’s a pen. Their legs get tangled as they’re trying to get in front of each other. Although the defender seems to look up at the ref nervously as soon has he’s on the floor. 

[Tonks55]

As a defender (many moons ago), often the attacker would cut across your path so, as was pointed out by a number of people, the defender has a choice to pull out or clatter into the BACK of the defender. Thankfully I had a turn of foot in those days (we are talking during the last century here!!) and more often than not I could remain in front of the attacker. I would have been more than a little miffed if a penalty had been given in these circumstances.

The key word here is 'BACK' and Semenyo's foot clearly hits the BACK of the defenders leg, before he tumbles. Therefore the defender was (marginally) in front and entitled to follow his path - no penalty. Ironically, Semenyo clearly has the legs of the defender and the same manoeuvre but one step later and he will have got past the defender or got the penalty shout!

Mind you its about time a referee got one wrong in our favour and awarded a penalty!!

 

[Alex_BCFC]

It's not a foul for me. And the more I see it the more I can see why the ref gave the foul against as their lad has got in a good position and then Semenyo has caught his leg. I thought ref had pretty good game yesterday too.

[Cowshed]

4 hours ago, JoeAman08 said:

Semenyo is past him. The defender bungling into him is unlucky but it is clumsy. He also doesn’t try to play the ball. He just runs into him. It is a pen and one you’d expected given 90% of the time. It is given even more a division higher. 

If you are interested in referees views the incident is discussed on the referees site refs chat. The full house is so far is no foul. 

PNE -BCFC | RefChat - The Refereeing Forum

 

[Southport Red]

2 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

If you are interested in referees views the incident is discussed on the referees site refs chat. The full house is so far is no foul. 

PNE -BCFC | RefChat - The Refereeing Forum

 

Confirmation bias though isn’t it?  All we see is a Penalty, all PNE fans see is no penalty, all referees see is “Ref got it right”. Fact is, you see those given in the EPL every week. 

[Cowshed]

48 minutes ago, Southport Red said:

Confirmation bias though isn’t it?  

Its qualified referees interpreting a decision using rules that omit bias.

48 minutes ago, Southport Red said:

  All we see is a Penlaty

Several posters above your post have differing views. I see a foul on the PNE player.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Cowshed

[italian dave]

36 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

If you are interested in referees views the incident is discussed on the referees site refs chat. The full house is so far is no foul. 

PNE -BCFC | RefChat - The Refereeing Forum

 

Thanks for posting: interesting. 

Funny how even a bunch of refs can’t completely agree. And one has to rely on the freeze frame slow motion reverse angle before reaching a conclusion - hopefully s/he’s a bit more spontaneous when reffing a game! 

[22A]

72nd minute in today's Egypt v Morocco game; identical challenge, but outside the box and the attacking team was awarded a free kick.

[Mr Chappers]

The ref didn’t blow his whistle and point at the spot, so it wasn’t a pen. Wasn’t sure at the time and still not, but I’d rather have the odd potential mistake than VAR.

[red84]

It's clearly not a penalty from the different angle on the Quest highlights. Semenyo clearly kicks the defender. Ref got it right.

[Mad Cyril]

There is a reason that (fact incoming) since 2018/19, of all the 31 leagues in Europe, Bristol City have been awarded less penalties than any other club.

I just need to work out what that reason is. I do know it hacks me right off though...

[Mr Popodopolous]

I shouted 'penalty' when I saw it on Quest but it certainly wasn't a nailed on one.

That refs forum is interesting too, not one thinks it was although not checked for an hour or 2.

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, Mad Cyril said:

There is a reason that (fact incoming) since 2018/19, of all the 31 leagues in Europe, Bristol City have been awarded less penalties than any other club.

I just need to work out what that reason is. I do know it hacks me right off though...

We didn't create much for a lot of 2019/20, 2020/21 and parts of 2018/19 and the present- that's one aspect although with slight recency bias it gets worse.

1st November 2020 to 31st January 2022, in the League one that's one penalty only.

[1960maaan]

I've seen the posts on here, and that "Refs" forum thing, and I have a question.

The defender is crossing Semenyo's line, he puts his leg in front of AS as he runs. Exactly as you would if you were trying to trip someone. AS is not waving his leg out like Vardy has done to force contact. It looks like he kicks the blokes leg because the defender has crossed his line.
Obviously it isn't nailed on, as there seems to be differing thoughts, but Pen all day for me. Maybe one day. 50p on us missing it when it comes.

 

[maxjak]

On 30/01/2022 at 10:21, IAmNick said:

Check out the clip I posted yesterday: https://streamja.com/29M0k

First angle for me he's mid dive when he gets clipped, or at least a pretty unnatural leg movement

Penalty All day ...............IMHO.

[Cowshed]

14 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

I've seen the posts on here, and that "Refs" forum thing, and I have a question.

The defender is crossing Semenyo's line, he puts his leg in front of AS as he runs. Exactly as you would if you were trying to trip someone. AS is not waving his leg out like Vardy has done to force contact. It looks like he kicks the blokes leg because the defender has crossed his line.
Obviously it isn't nailed on, as there seems to be differing thoughts, but Pen all day for me. Maybe one day. 50p on us missing it when it comes.

 

What was your question?

[1960maaan]

3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

What was your question?

May have got misplaced in my waffling 

[hertsexile]

If that happens in city’s box penalty. 
Samenyo doesn’t take a drive there is contact so a pen. 
GBH on Scott against QPR a stonewall pen yet once again not given. The general standard of officials in the EFL is not that good so what do we expect 

[Leveller]

If the attacker initiates the contact - ie sticks his leg out to make the defender run into it, as AS did - then that shouldn’t be a foul, for me. It’s basically the same as diving.

[Leveller]

Another one that bugs me is when an attacker pushes a ball past a defender then runs into him. It’s nearly always given as a body check, when in reality the defender doesn’t make any movement. The defenders usually booed and booked too!

[NOTBLUE]

I didn’t realise that you had to run in a straight line whilst playing football.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Leveller said:

If the attacker initiates the contact - ie sticks his leg out to make the defender run into it, as AS did - then that shouldn’t be a foul, for me. It’s basically the same as diving.

I don’t think he did stick his leg out, he had changed the direction of his run to cut across towards goal.

[Leveller]

24 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t think he did stick his leg out, he had changed the direction of his run to cut across towards goal.

That's obviously the point that's near impossible to be certain about, and why the Ref's job is so hard. To me, he extended his leg out wider than he would have simply to change direction.

https://streamja.com/29M0k

Edited January 31, 2022 by Leveller

[Sleepy1968]

1 hour ago, Leveller said:

That's obviously the point that's near impossible to be certain about, and why the Ref's job is so hard. To me, he extended his leg out wider than he would have simply to change direction.

https://streamja.com/29M0k

Pressumably part of the reason for doing that would be to get as much of your body in front of the defender to help shield the ball? Sounds plausible to me anyway ...

Edited January 31, 2022 by Sleepy1968

[Alex_BCFC]

So basically we have no idea what the correct decision is/was. Although the refs forum indicates the correct decision was made so perhaps a lot of fans are blinkered. I think refs have a near impossible job and actually they don't do badly considering the speed of the game, the players going down easily etc.