Talk sport and the city model

[The turtle]

City are the basis of a whole segment here, basically having business model ripped to pieces by Mr Jordan and CO

Essentaily if the points deduction comes, we'll deserve it for a terrible modal that shouldn't even be allowed. 

Thoughts from those listening? 

[DaveF]

What are they claiming our business model to be?

[The turtle]

1 minute ago, DaveF said:

What are they claiming our business model to be?

Buy youth/abroad low, sell high and factoring that into financial fair play. 

A. You may never sell a player for profit, so shouldn't assume you will. 

B. Don't blame covid, had long enough to adjust. 

Edited February 17, 2022 by The turtle

[chinapig]

1 minute ago, The turtle said:

Buy low, sell high and factoring that into financial fair play. 

A. You never sell a player for profit. 

B. Don't blame covid, had long enough to adjust. 

A. If that means just for profit I agree. It's how you use it in a balanced way to improve the squad while protecting the finances.

B. Agreed also, I don't much like Gould's special pleading on Covid, especially the spurious claim to include hypothetical transfer income we "lost". We screwed our own finances but Steve is not a man to admit he got it wrong.

Though we need to bear in mind that Jordan and Steve were not exactly best buddies!

[Silvio Dante]

6 minutes ago, The turtle said:

Buy youth/abroad low, sell high and factoring that into financial fair play. 

A. You may never sell a player for profit, so shouldn't assume you will. 

B. Don't blame covid, had long enough to adjust. 

So Simon Jordan thinks a strategy of buying low and selling high is a poor one. Thanks for that Simon, I’ll go for the “buy high, sell low” strategy that led Palace to administration.

And Simon also thinks we can’t blame Covid when the financials he’s referring to are 20/21 when Covid was in full flow, and we’re now out and adjusting - ie not blaming Covid currently. I’m not sure Simon understands accounts are published retrospectively.
 

There’s a reason I don’t listen to Talksport. I’ve probably just identified it. 

[CyderInACan]

14 minutes ago, DaveF said:

What are they claiming our business model to be?

Wait - we've got a business model!? 

[Northern Red]

That tango *** would know all about clubs going into administration.

[lenred]

Derby county fans wetting their knickers about it already I see. Sad ****s

[1960maaan]

11 minutes ago, The turtle said:

Buy youth/abroad low, sell high and factoring that into financial fair play. 

A. You may never sell a player for profit, so shouldn't assume you will. 

B. Don't blame covid, had long enough to adjust. 

If there was a single strategy plan, then yeah, that would be poor. 
The thing is, and it was massively affected by COVID, was the stadium was a major factor in the income to the club. Largest conference space in the area, Gigs and banqueting all building nicely and all dependant on people being able to mix. Again, COVID.
Steve said he wanted the Club to be self sufficient , that would be impossible relying on buying and selling young players from abroad. Though a cursory look may imply we tried that in seasons past. I can't listen to that program , Jordan is a *****. He does sometime sound interesting, but I think he is going the same way Adrian Durham did, being a gobshite to get more calls in.

[Akira]

Jordan has a point whether you like him or not. 

Having a business model which sets your player wages to be around 90% turnover and living on the edge, thinking you can bring through youth and sell for profit all the time, eventually it'll fail, which is what we're seeing (added with the extra pressure of COVID) 

Let's not pretend player's aren't the issue here, because they are. Their wages are astronomical. We've got Wells on the bench every game earning over a million pounds a year. No wonder we're in the shit. Palmer, stealing a living. Players that were signed a few seasons back on crazy salaries, for which we might pay the price for next season. 

Edit - one thing to add, this does highlight the need to scrap the unfair parachute payments. Fulham have the best striker in the league, reportedly earning £60/70k a week, but they can do so due to the payments from being in the Prem. 

Clubs wouldn't strive so hard just to try and remain competitive if the parachute payments didn't exist imo. 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Akira

[Cowshed]

18 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

So Simon Jordan thinks a strategy of buying low and selling high is a poor one. Thanks for that Simon, I’ll go for the “buy high, sell low” strategy that led Palace to administration.

And Simon also thinks we can’t blame Covid when the financials he’s referring to are 20/21 when Covid was in full flow, and we’re now out and adjusting - ie not blaming Covid currently. I’m not sure Simon understands accounts are published retrospectively.
 

There’s a reason I don’t listen to Talksport. I’ve probably just identified it. 

Mr Jordan stated you cannot underpin a business on things that may not happen e.g. buy low sell high. It is not a guaranteed cash flow. 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Cowshed

[The turtle]

14 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

So Simon Jordan thinks a strategy of buying low and selling high is a poor one. Thanks for that Simon, I’ll go for the “buy high, sell low” strategy that led Palace to administration.

And Simon also thinks we can’t blame Covid when the financials he’s referring to are 20/21 when Covid was in full flow, and we’re now out and adjusting - ie not blaming Covid currently. I’m not sure Simon understands accounts are published retrospectively.
 

There’s a reason I don’t listen to Talksport. I’ve probably just identified it. 

It's not the process as such, but the fact it's the difference between hitting fair play and not. 

His argument was it shouldn't be a factor in hitting fair play or not.

You can't run a business on this basis because if you don't sell high/or at least well, you are F****d

Doing it is one thing, gets that part, being the difference between missing fair play and a points deduction is another matter. 

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by The turtle

[Gazred]

It's not true though is it?

We tried to invest in younger players that could do a job now but also improve and add £ value. That hasn't always worked out of course but it's not just in Europe (no mention of HNM there?), what about Webster and Brownhill. Made good profit on both and served us well, recruited from the EFL. We continue to develop good home grown players too, some of which have gone for large amounts and others who are also worth a tidy profit are currently holding down places in our team, did that get a mention?

As for covid....how the hell would anyone be planning for that? Any business model is going to expect a turnover as part of its model. It's not like we've taken a huge gamble on getting to the Prem, we've made large investments for sure but not in an all or nothing attempt. I feel we are a victim of circumstance more than anything else.

[Wiltshire robin]

I’m not a fan of lansdown but Jordan had had previous with lansdown so is gonna try and slag him off as much as possible. I’m referring to Jordan throwing a cup of coffee at lansdown in the past .

[Robbored]

5 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

If there was a single strategy plan, then yeah, that would be poor. 
The thing is, and it was massively affected by COVID, was the stadium was a major factor in the income to the club. Largest conference space in the area, Gigs and banqueting all building nicely and all dependant on people being able to mix. Again, COVID.
Steve said he wanted the Club to be self sufficient , that would be impossible relying on buying and selling young players from abroad. Though a cursory look may imply we tried that in seasons past. I can't listen to that program , Jordan is a *****. He does sometime sound interesting, but I think he is going the same way Adrian Durham did, being a gobshite to get more calls in.

Wasn’t smarmy Ashton CEO at the time in question?

[1960maaan]

1 minute ago, Robbored said:

Wasn’t smarmy Ashton CEO at the time in question?

When it looked like that was our strategy , yeah.

That Clubs in the bag thing, hoover up players like there's no tomorrow, whether they fit the team or not. Then when you sell, hope for a profit. Ashton loved a deal, just didn't love a plan by the seem of it. 

[Tin Soldier]

Have to ignore the Jordan/Lansdown fallout.

But for me, keeping more of the “family silver, buying less monkeys” would have meant Premiership football by now IMO. Real shame how one prat led Lansdown astray. SL took his eye of the ball. Fatal in biz.

[Robbored]

1 minute ago, Wiltshire robin said:

I’m not a fan of lansdown but Jordan had had previous with lansdown so is gonna try and slag him off as much as possible. I’m referring to Jordan throwing a cup of coffee at lansdown in the past .

Jordan did not make one disparaging comment about City or SL for that matter. He was trying to explain how FFP regulations apply and the difficulties that some Championship clubs encounter.

[Cowshed]

5 minutes ago, Gazred said:

It's not true though is it?

We tried to invest in younger players that could do a job now but also improve and add £ value. That hasn't always worked out of course but it's not just in Europe (no mention of HNM there?), what about Webster and Brownhill. Made good profit on both and served us well, recruited from the EFL. We continue to develop good home grown players too, some of which have gone for large amounts and others who are also worth a tidy profit are currently holding down places in our team, did that get a mention?

As for covid....how the hell would anyone be planning for that? Any business model is going to expect a turnover as part of its model. It's not like we've taken a huge gamble on getting to the Prem, we've made large investments for sure but not in an all or nothing attempt. I feel we are a victim of circumstance more than anything else.

Turn over that Bristol City constantly spend past on wages prior to covid.  

[RedRoss]

I do agree to be honest. To rely on a volatile transfer market to pay huge fees and wages above our level in terms of revenue to compete with teams with higher revenue streams and parachute payments is way too risky.

One or two bad investments which all clubs make with recruitment and we're heavily impacted. Now I know Covid has magnified the issue but we have to take responsibility.

Also others will point to Brentford ect but they were equally taking a big risk.They just made better decisions with recruitment and thankfully for them got promoted.

We must accept this critism as I know posters on here have been hugely critical of Derby ect for their dodgy accounting. Although we've not been deceitful we've been careless in terms of FFP and have to accept this viewpoint and any implications that may come our way.

Kieron Maguire has summed it up in the past. Most fans want a sustainable model for their club but they also want substantial investment and success. These two objectives usually never happen. More often clubs which are more sustainable tend to get relegated ie Wycombe, Rotherham ect. Basically we can't have our cake and eat it.

[The turtle]

2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Jordan did not make one disparaging comment about City or SL for that matter. He was trying to explain how FFP regulations apply and the difficulties that some Championship clubs encounter.

To the point when Murphy was slightly negative about SL he absolutely rejected it. 

 

It was a curious listen if nothing else. 

[Silvio Dante]

2 minutes ago, The turtle said:

It's not the process as such, but the fact it's the difference between hitting fair play and not. 

His argument was it shouldn't be a factor in hitting fair play or not.

You can't run a business on this basis because if you don't sell, you are F****d

Doing it is one thing, gets that part, being the difference between missing fair play and a points deduction is another matter. 

 

Tbf , most businesses run on the basis of selling goods for more than they’ve paid for them, so the “buy low, sell high”. The trick is generally ensuring your stock is accurately valued

I think the big thing that Jordan’s missing (and it has been lost) is that our model isn’t based solely on sales and that also isn’t the difference between FFP or not. Our major income generator is the stadium, and if you look at the income lost through Covid, that’s the difference between meeting and failing FFP. And I’d bet that the “acceptable losses” will consider this and we won’t fail FFP on that basis.

Lets flip the question. If Jordan doesn’t believe a good model is income generation from the stadium and player sales as the latter isn’t guaranteed, what does he believe is? Match day income doesn’t cover costs, and parachute payments also aren’t guaranteed long term. So, what is his better model?

Or is he just being a Cuprinol faced **** again?

[Rob k]

It’s the most unfair division probably in world football - how are clubs like City to compete without taking a risk? 

[Silvio Dante]

12 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Mr Jordan stated you cannot underpin a business on things that may not happen e.g. buy low sell high. It is not a guaranteed cash flow. 

And again, I’ll then say in terms of football what is when the turnstile money doesn’t cover things?

We have a “guaranteed” stream. Non match day stadium income. But Covid stopped it and caused a lot of our problems.

So, what is Mr Jordan’s guaranteed stream that he points to outside of our current strategy? 

[Cowshed]

Just now, Silvio Dante said:

And again, I’ll then say in terms of football what is when the turnstile money doesn’t cover things?

We have a “guaranteed” stream. Non match day stadium income. But Covid stopped it and caused a lot of our problems.

So, what is Mr Jordan’s guaranteed stream that he points to outside of our current strategy? 

In answer to your question Jordan didn't talk about an alternative strategy for BCFC. He spoke about the flaws in the BCFC model. 

Mr Jordan made reference to Bristol City constantly spending well past turn over on wages. City have done this for years. And buying low to sell high. Spending past turn over + a non guaranteed cash flow is a flawed sustainable model. That strategy was likely to fall off a cliff (SJ  words), its on the edge.   

 

[RedRoss]

5 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

And again, I’ll then say in terms of football what is when the turnstile money doesn’t cover things?

We have a “guaranteed” stream. Non match day stadium income. But Covid stopped it and caused a lot of our problems.

So, what is Mr Jordan’s guaranteed stream that he points to outside of our current strategy? 

The thing is this wasn't the main issue that has caused most of our problems. Covid accelerated the issue but paying over the top wages and fees and banking on success in the transfer market is the main issue. Even if Covid hadn't come along do you still think we'd get a return on the 4 million outlay on Kasey Palmer, the 8 million we paid for Kalas, the 4.5 million on Nakhi Wells? Those fees along with their hefty wages which are way above our pay grade.

[TonyTonyTony]

How does a club, like city, compete with the parachute clubs? You have to pay good wages to a select few players and hope they perform. The tactic of trying to find youth, develop them and sell on for profit is entirely sensible. The issue at city is the recruitment has not been great. We have duds sat on the bench / squad earning loads. Recruitment is the issue

Edited February 17, 2022 by TonyTonyTony

[BTRFTG]

Like most in The Championship City didn't have an assured business model. Like all mug punters they gambled and lost.

Covid is a red herring, it cost City last year between £8m -£9m.

City signed dozens upon dozens of players, mostly crap, all costing far in excess of what they were worth, remunerated at eye-watering rates beyond that City could afford. That's City problem, nothing else.

Routinely paying more in salaries than you take in turnover, what might possibly go wrong?

[iamalagerdrinker]

Anyone got a link and time to when the conversation was please?

[CHIPLEY RED]

36 minutes ago, Akira said:

Jordan has a point whether you like him or not. 

Having a business model which sets your player wages to be around 90% turnover and living on the edge, thinking you can bring through youth and sell for profit all the time, eventually it'll fail, which is what we're seeing (added with the extra pressure of COVID) 

Let's not pretend player's aren't the issue here, because they are. Their wages are astronomical. We've got Wells on the bench every game earning over a million pounds a year. No wonder we're in the shit. Palmer, stealing a living. Players that were signed a few seasons back on crazy salaries, for which we might pay the price for next season. 

Edit - one thing to add, this does highlight the need to scrap the unfair parachute payments. Fulham have the best striker in the league, reportedly earning £60/70k a week, but they can do so due to the payments from being in the Prem. 

Clubs wouldn't strive so hard just to try and remain competitive if the parachute payments didn't exist imo. 

I don't like this type of comment. Why is Palmer stealing a living?

Somebody decided to sign him on a contract at a rate of pay. He had been on loan so we knew what we were buying. If the club choose to now not use the player thats the clubs fault. I'm sure Palmer would rather be playing than not.

I would describe it as mismanagement by the club. We bought and expensive asset and then haven't used it.

[BTRFTG]

31 minutes ago, Rob k said:

It’s the most unfair division probably in world football - how are clubs like City to compete without taking a risk? 

History shows that most Championship clubs have occasionally won the gamble taken (though be careful for that you wish.) City are one of a very select band who have shown themselves to be reckless and clueless punters.

[BTRFTG]

4 minutes ago, CHIPLEY RED said:

I don't like this type of comment. Why is Palmer stealing a living?

Somebody decided to sign him on a contract at a rate of pay. He had been on loan so we knew what we were buying. If the club choose to now not use the player thats the clubs fault. I'm sure Palmer would rather be playing than not.

I would describe it as mismanagement by the club. We bought and expensive asset and then haven't used it.

Spot-on, save for the final sentence.

City paid far over the odds for KP who in reality was never worth half that City coughed up for him. City made it an expensive purchase, wholly different from him being an expensive asset. He doesn't play because in the type of side City may now put out he's little more than a liability. Bloke cedes possession for fun.

[Merrick's Marvels]

33 minutes ago, TomF said:

From the man that put Crystal Palace into admin. Touché.

Which might give him some insight/expertise about the matter?

Don't get me wrong, I have no time for him or this radio station but @chinapig nailed it - it's special pleading on our part. Our excuses are just that - excuses.

My question to Jon Lansdown would be - "so which player(s) were you going to sell for squillions of quid, then, if only it hadn't been for that pesky covid?"

We've dug a hole for ourselves, we need to get ourselves out of it - most likely that will mean selling someone we'd rather not.

I don't blame him for trying to avoid this by making the arguments he is. I just don't think he'll be successful.

Perhaps once every club has published their accounts, more clubs will be singing the same tune and our argument will carry more weight and we might even win the day. But how long might this take? Too long I suspect - we can't wait indefinitely, we have to get our books in order asap, i.e. sell someone in the summer.

Perhaps the strategy is to let all the ooc players leave in the summer - plus offload Wells/Palmer or both   - and squeak inside FFP this season. Then spend next season making our case to the EFL that we should be allowed greater covid losses, an argument hopefully supported by several other clubs who find themselves in the same boat as us. If that argument still fails, sell a valuable young un next summer.

We're an easy target at the moment, having published accounts well ahead of most others who are still to show their hand. I still think our argument is special pleading though.   

[The turtle]

14 minutes ago, iamalagerdrinker said:

Anyone got a link and time to when the conversation was please?

It would have been just after 1130 UK time or around than. 

If you could find a link to it  that's around then hour you want to look

[RedRock]

29 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

How does a club, like city, compete with the parachute clubs? You have to pay good wages to a select few players and hope they perform. The tactic of trying to find youth, develop them and sell on for profit is entirely sensible. The issue at city is the recruitment has not been great. We have duds sat on the bench / squad earning loads. Recruitment is the issue

Precisely…. me, and others, have been banging on about this for years.

DoF, Chief Scout, Network of Scouts, Academy, Analysts in that order, all aligned in working to a Club/Playing Development Strategy led by CEO/Owner.

It seemed we had all powerful CEO, then Analysts, Academy … unless we got very lucky it was not going to end well. The four pillars seemed to get lost in short-term decision-making leading to incoming transfer randomness with a focus solely on profiteering (excepting Wells, who was a last throw of the dice).

Let’s hope Nige has the energy left to turn this around and Steve and family - who I have no doubt have the very best of intentions - also stick around. I really do think the ‘Bristol Sport’ model is a good one for a Club like ours, we just need to ensure the right people are in place on the football operations side. 

 

[Midred]

How much wiser people appear to be when they no longer have responsibility for a job  they are attempting to advise others about. Whether it business eg Simon Jordan or politics eg Jeremy Hunt, their egos tend to ignore what happened when they were in charge.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, The turtle said:

Buy youth/abroad low, sell high and factoring that into financial fair play. 

A. You may never sell a player for profit, so shouldn't assume you will. 

B. Don't blame covid, had long enough to adjust. 

Haven’t listened, but I agree.

A. Flawed model in the first place, how many of signings returned a profit.  I reckon of the 69 “Ashton” signings, make that 52 (17 were loans) just 6 were sold for more than we paid for them.  You could argue that the 52 is really 37 because 15 were free transfers, but some of those free transfers were ones who we might’ve sold for a fee.  That’s a crap hit rate when that’s your strategy.

The 6 were:

• Magnússon (small profit)
• Eliasson (small profit)
• Brownhill
• Webster
• Szmodics (small profit)
• Eisa (small profit)

B. Yep, and the biggest failure was the recontracting debacle last summer.  Letting players like Diedhiou go for free.  Ashton had 2 years to extend I’d sell him.  Others too.

[Southport Red]

1 hour ago, Gazred said:

It's not true though is it?

We tried to invest in younger players that could do a job now but also improve and add £ value. That hasn't always worked out of course but it's not just in Europe (no mention of HNM there?), what about Webster and Brownhill. Made good profit on both and served us well, recruited from the EFL. We continue to develop good home grown players too, some of which have gone for large amounts and others who are also worth a tidy profit are currently holding down places in our team, did that get a mention?

As for covid....how the hell would anyone be planning for that? Any business model is going to expect a turnover as part of its model. It's not like we've taken a huge gamble on getting to the Prem, we've made large investments for sure but not in an all or nothing attempt. I feel we are a victim of circumstance more than anything else.

Agreed. 
 

Good margin - Webster

Value added - Brownhill, Kelly

Good Value extracted - Bryan, Reid, Dhedhou, Flint, Pack, Smith

Value lost - Nagy, Wells(probably), Palmer, Patterson

Current Value added - HNM, Scott, Benarous

Not a stellar record perhaps, but I’d wager, no worse than many. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Not listened yet but from the summaries I've read on here. 

He certainly has a point, it is a highly risky strategy to mask operating losses through player sales, assuming the well will never run dry. I think the bits by Gould about add back of lost hypothetical player sale profits are a non starter. 100%.

Agree with a lot of what Jordan says tbh but I would also like to ask him has he a view on Stoke claiming £30m in Impairment to Covid thereby eliminating from P&S? That's worse!

Wonder if he has a view on the Sala tragedy possibly giving Cardiff a P&S lifeline? Carvalho to Olympiakos, if that's a big fee then questions to be asked...

[Southport Red]

12 minutes ago, Midred said:

How much wiser people appear to be when they no longer have responsibility for a job  they are attempting to advise others about. Whether it business eg Simon Jordan or politics eg Jeremy Hunt, their egos tend to ignore what happened when they were in charge.

“The older I get, the better I was”

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, RedRoss said:

The thing is this wasn't the main issue that has caused most of our problems. Covid accelerated the issue but paying over the top wages and fees and banking on success in the transfer market is the main issue. Even if Covid hadn't come along do you still think we'd get a return on the 4 million outlay on Kasey Palmer, the 8 million we paid for Kalas, the 4.5 million on Nakhi Wells? Those fees along with their hefty wages which are way above our pay grade.

Big round of applause.  It was coming, Covid brought it forward.

I’ve been moaning about this for best part of 4 years.  I’m not even an accountant!

Much as I dislike comparing us to our friends in the north….it’s what happened to them, when they stopped having sellable assets like Stewart, Browning, Taylor, Ellington, Roberts, Hayles, Lambert, etc.  they suddenly couldn’t afford to live in Lg1 (Champ for very short stint)…and Colin Daniel became “king”!

We are a tad fortunate Semenyo and Scott give us a backstop, Massengo too, to a lesser extent, because we bought him in for a decent fee in the first place.  Ashton / Holden (???) we’re happy to loan him to Brum….he would have been off last summer for less than we paid for him had that happened!  Let that sink in.

[Eddie Hitler]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

So Simon Jordan thinks a strategy of buying low and selling high is a poor one. Thanks for that Simon, I’ll go for the “buy high, sell low” strategy that led Palace to administration.

And Simon also thinks we can’t blame Covid when the financials he’s referring to are 20/21 when Covid was in full flow, and we’re now out and adjusting - ie not blaming Covid currently. I’m not sure Simon understands accounts are published retrospectively.
 

There’s a reason I don’t listen to Talksport. I’ve probably just identified it. 

 

Quite.

Ron Noades ran a successful Crystal Palace on a shoestring for years by just that strategy of buying players 24 or under who could develop and selling them for a profit. Chris Armstrong was one.

Then Simon "is he wearing Harmony hairspray?" Jordan took over, thought he knew better and nearly bankrupted the club.

The bloke's an idiot and it's laughable that he's criticising other clubs' financial models.

[Ivorguy]

It is blindingly obvious that the SL business model would in all likelihood , bar some huge fluke, fail.  Always sell your best players before they give us an opportunity of making real progress, then rinse and repeat.

So unlikely, that some believe it was even set up to fail and to concentrate resources on rugby, leisure and business use of Ashton Gate - the plan all along.

The time to invest was when we did have a fluke season and reached play off final and had momentum.

Can’t see that happening again soon. 

Typical of City over last century, with only one exception (and that went well!), lack of true ambition will always hold us back.

Who seriously thinks the next league we play in after Championship won’t be the good old Third Division - our spiritual home 
 

 

 

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

Simon Jordon, him and Paul Scally, not sure who I dislike the most, the guy who could not let that ghost goal go and forever talks us down or the one who screwed us with Pulis, then took us to court over it. 

[Midred]

Just now, Southport Red said:

“The older I get, the better I was”

A lot of ex sportsmen also. Geoffrey Boycott, Brian Moore, to name but two!

[Waconda]

56 minutes ago, CHIPLEY RED said:

I don't like this type of comment. Why is Palmer stealing a living?

Somebody decided to sign him on a contract at a rate of pay. He had been on loan so we knew what we were buying. If the club choose to now not use the player thats the clubs fault. I'm sure Palmer would rather be playing than not.

I would describe it as mismanagement by the club. We bought and expensive asset and then haven't used it.

Must blame the player. You must have had the memo ?

[Davefevs]

46 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Perhaps the strategy is to let all the ooc players leave in the summer - plus offload Wells/Palmer or both   - and squeak inside FFP this season.

We are well inside ffp for the cycle ending this season.

[Red-Robbo]

Isn't "sell your best players if it brings in such a big profit that you might be able to replace them" the same 'business model' all Championship clubs without PP are forced to pursue?

In fact, aren't more or less every club barring PL ones and Championship PP recipients in this position? 

[Davefevs]

46 minutes ago, The turtle said:

It would have been just after 1130 UK time or around than. 

If you could find a link to it  that's around then hour you want to look

It’s on about 11:20, and carried on beyond 11:30

https://talksport.com/radio/listen-again/1645092000/1645095600/

[Davefevs]

SJ agrees with revenue lost due ticket sakes, commercial revenues, etc.  He disagrees with RG / JL’s view that they should be allowed more allowances based on historic transfer profit.  And I agree with him.

[And Its Smith]

The strategy is fine

The execution of the strategy was poor. 
 

That’s it 

[Swede]

I've never had any time for this bloke & especially after his club went into administration. I am sure there was extenuating circumstances much like a business model where one source of projected revenue is calculated on the amount of footfall through the stadium on a matchday basis pre covid and the very same business models are now having to be adjusted through covid yet we are still being asked to be accountable? Every club is different so I'm not sure on what basis he can pass judgement unless he knows our major shareholder very well which I somewhat doubt.

As an example, I think I read somewhere that 18,000 pints of beer are bought over a matchday weekend when the Bears & City are at home which is a considerable amount of money lost. How do you factor that in.

He's on a talk show and is paid to be controversial. I reckon he's tangoed quite a few people with his comments.

 

[Curr Avon]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

It’s on about 11:20, and carried on beyond 11:30

https://talksport.com/radio/listen-again/1645092000/1645095600/

or -8.50 in the 11:00 to 11:30 section.

[Midred]

1 minute ago, Red-Robbo said:

Isn't "sell your best players if it brings in such a big profit that you might be able to replace them" the same 'business model' all Championship clubs without PP are forced to pursue?

In fact, aren't more or less every club barring PL ones and Championship PP recipients in this position? 

Many on otib appear to be unaware that the players themselves might have a choice in the matter. Once their heads have been turned then the choice could well be to sell them for what they can get rather then have players who are either losing interest or decide to wind down their contracts until they can go for free. I believe that after the two Manchester games in 17/18 season one or two might have thought other clubs would be screaming for their signatures in the January window. This obviously didn't happen but they seemed to lose motivation for the second half of the season.

[lenred]

17 minutes ago, Midred said:

A lot of ex sportsmen also. Geoffrey Boycott, Brian Moore, to name but two!

Brian Moore was absolutely fantastic.  My first ever ‘favourite player’ in rugby! 

[Midred]

Just now, lenred said:

Brian Moore was absolutely fantastic.  My first ever ‘favourite player’ in rugby! 

He seems to know more about the rules now than when he was playing! 

[lenred]

2 minutes ago, Midred said:

He seems to know more about the rules now than when he was playing! 

Haha!! There’s no denying that

[Jeez]

This clown is in no place to lecture anyone how to run a football club. 

I read his book & hasn’t a clue how to run a financially sound business, he got lucky when he blagged he way through the mobile phone gold rush & then spunked the money he made

It’s embarrassing how much money he squandered.

[Tinmans Love Child]

If I was in charge, my basic strategy would be:

1) Only buy players from other clubs who are under 25

2) Sell ANY player who doesn’t sign a new contract (so that they don’t leave for free)

3) Ensure youth players are given a chance before buying

4) Never break the salary cap for anyone!

[Waconda]

1 minute ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

If I was in charge, my basic strategy would be:

1) Only buy players from other clubs who are under 25

2) Sell ANY player who doesn’t sign a new contract (so that they don’t leave for free)

3) Ensure youth players are given a chance before buying

4) Never break the salary cap for anyone!

And most importantly ignore ridiculous transfer targets demanded by fans. 

[CotswoldRed]

City got quite lucky, ending up with a decent number of good, young valuable players. In some significant way, this was in spite of, not because of, their management strategy. 

They never knew why it worked. So they could never recognise when it started to fail. 

[Super]

1 hour ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

Quite.

Ron Noades ran a successful Crystal Palace on a shoestring for years by just that strategy of buying players 24 or under who could develop and selling them for a profit. Chris Armstrong was one.

Then Simon "is he wearing Harmony hairspray?" Jordan took over, thought he knew better and nearly bankrupted the club.

The bloke's an idiot and it's laughable that he's criticising other clubs' financial models.

The bloke made his own mistakes he accepts that but he is spot on regarding us.

[Davefevs]

 

10 minutes ago, Swede said:

I've never had any time for this bloke & especially after his club went into administration. I am sure there was extenuating circumstances much like a business model where one source of projected revenue is calculated on the amount of footfall through the stadium on a matchday basis pre covid and the very same business models are now having to be adjusted through covid yet we are still being asked to be accountable? Every club is different so I'm not sure on what basis he can pass judgement unless he knows our major shareholder very well which I somewhat doubt.

As an example, I think I read somewhere that 18,000 pints of beer are bought over a matchday weekend when the Bears & City are at home which is a considerable amount of money lost. How do you factor that in.

He's on a talk show and is paid to be controversial. I reckon he's tangoed quite a few people with his comments.

 

Basically the EFL have changed the FFP rules for 19/20 and 20/21 and allowed you to reduce your losses by the income you lost out on through covid.  They’ve been pretty fair in that respect, which is why Jordan is saying clubs have had 2 years to react.  So for FFP purposes our £38.4m loss will be less than that.

[Davefevs]

49 minutes ago, Red Alert said:

This clown is in no place to lecture anyone how to run a football club. 

I read his book & hasn’t a clue how to run a financially sound business, he got lucky when he blagged he way through the mobile phone gold rush & then spunked the money he made

It’s embarrassing how much money he squandered.

Maybe he has learned from his own experiences.  I read his book too, and it completely changed my view if him.  I like him now, thought he was a bit of dick beforehand.

He has highlighted a number of fundamental flaws in football as a business.

[Rob k]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Maybe he has learned from his own experiences.  I read his book too, and it completely changed my view if him.  I like him now, thought he was a bit of dick beforehand.

He has highlighted a number of fundamental flaws in football as a business.

Football (imo) is still not really a business outside the top flight, a sustainable one anyway, 

If the EFL clubs were a joint business, how much money do they lose every single year? The model doesn’t work
 

[Red-Robbo]

33 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Maybe he has learned from his own experiences.  I read his book too, and it completely changed my view if him.  I like him now, thought he was a bit of dick beforehand.

He has highlighted a number of fundamental flaws in football as a business.

 

But they are hardly just a "Bristol City Model". As I said, nearly all clubs have to have the buy low, sell high mentality to stay afloat. Some seasons that won't work, you then go through a dry patch where you have no war chest to speak of. 

The economics of football are ridiculous though. Without TV money and that trickle down virtually all non-PL clubs would go bust, as would a number in the top tier. Nowhere else would such a large number of relatively modest sized enterprises be able to pay such incredible salaries. No companies with such modest numbers of active consumers could operate as FL clubs do.   

Edited February 17, 2022 by Red-Robbo

[BTRFTG]

1 hour ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

Simon Jordon, him and Paul Scally, not sure who I dislike the most, the guy who could not let that ghost goal go and forever talks us down or the one who screwed us with Pulis, then took us to court over it. 

Oh dear, oh dear....

I've covered this umpteen times before but as you appear not to have understood, here are the facts (as evidenced by the court transcripts that Scally published:)

Pulis, as manager at The Gills, undertook a number of childish and personally vindictive actions that would normally have seen him instantly dismissed for gross misconduct. This culminated in him threatening to 'blackmail'  Scally ahead of The Gills play-off final against Man City. Scally had nothing to hide and already had Pulis' measure.

A few months earlier Pulis attended for interview at both City and Stoke, without Scally's permission or either club approaching The Gills for permission, contrary to EFL regulation. Pulis met the City directors at one of their homes and later that evening he was entertained by City at a restaurant in Park St. Pulis attended Stoke the following day. For the whole of his trip Pulis claimed expenses from The Gills stating he was out 'scouting players'.

Scally sacked Pulis for misconduct who knew that was coming his way and walked straight into the role he'd already lined up at City. Arriving at City his first action was, knowing he had City over a barrel over their illegal approach, to look to renegotiate the deal City thought they'd agreed. Specifically, and as Pulis had tried to do at The Gills, he demanded a significant cut of all transfers out of the club. At The Gills Scally had agreed (I think it was 20%) profit made in developing a player (there it was limited to players signed by and disposed of by Pulis ). Scally honoured that in all transactions. Pulis attempted to claim monies on players already at the club when he arrived and also on kids coming through the academy ranks, both of which were excluded in his contract. He claimed likewise at City, who were reluctant to agree but who didn't want their illegal approach exposed. Recall at both clubs Pulis' first day in charge saw him enter the dressing room informing all players he thought they were rubbish and didn't figure in his long-term plans. Nothing to do with quality, everything to do with him turning a personal buck. Thereafter ensued 'The Great Bristolian Pen Crisis'. Pulis never did sign a contract with City, he was never their employee, his company retained on a consultancy basis. One might argue he was never City's manager. As soon as the opportunity arose to offload 'bad trouble' City did so, to Pompey where he deployed the same tactic. Recall, to the end, City denied ever having made an illegal approach. 

Much later Pulis issued proceedings against both The Gills and Scally personally for sums he claimed were outstanding. His claims were not supported by the LMA nor the EFL. They knew Scally had agreed to settle in the sums owed under his contract, but not those to which Pulis wished himself entitled. On the second day of the High Court trial there was an interesting twist. Against what is normal practice Scally's counsel asked Pulis who was underwriting his expensive, personal action? Pulis at first declined to answer but the Judge ruled it was to be answered as it was material to a test of Pulis' character and motives. Reluctantly, Pulis informed the cost of his action was being funded by Bristol City FC, a company with which he had no association, for whom he had never been an employee and who had no material interest in the case. Later, and after a character destruction of Pulis by Scally's counsel, the Judge suggested to Pulis' counsel they might wish to have a discussion with their client and, post lunch, Pulis withdrew his action. The Judge's comments in reminding Pulis was also claiming damage to reputation and as to evidenced demonstrations of his character already disclosed in court could not have been more scathing. Outside the court even the LMA were desperate to dissociate themselves from their member.

Though Scally later threatened to sue both City and Stoke for costs incurred in defending actions they, not Pulis, had funded, I don't believe the cases ever materialized.  Much like Randy Andy I believe Sexstone confirmed City had settled the matter out of court and 'in confidence', without admitting any wrongdoing. I did ask Steve Lansdown when he took over to confirm, given my shareholder interest, whether Pulis had repaid all costs in respect of the action? I was told to mind my own business, that it was history and should be forgotten.

As an aside I, many years ago it must be said, occasionally used to drink with Scally. Fascinating character, decent, humerous bloke and brilliant story as to how he, a diehard 'Wall' fanatic, came to buy The Gills (he had no interest until approached.) Interesting that given all the issues City now suffer, the reason The Gills fans took against Scally was simply because he bought a failing business, had no interest in throwing his money away and transformed a nigh-on bankrupt club into one that for many years turned him a decent profit, if not with major success on the park. Fans hated he wouldn't push on by buying the type of players they wanted but wouldn't themselves fund.

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by BTRFTG

[Mr Popodopolous]

12 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Football (imo) is still not really a business outside the top flight, a sustainable one anyway, 

If the EFL clubs were a joint business, how much money do they lose every single year? The model doesn’t work
 

Agree with the overarching point and we even see some big PL clubs making losses prior to Covid, Chelsea £100m in 2018/19, Arsenal for so long a byword of stability and financial sense, around £30-35m that same season! Quite dependent on CL revenue but I digress- worth distinguishing between accounting losses and cash losses though. If a business is cash neutral or cash positive in the case of the latter, they're on pretty reasonable ground.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[bearded_red]

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

History shows that most Championship clubs have occasionally won the gamble taken (though be careful for that you wish.) City are one of a very select band who have shown themselves to be reckless and clueless punters.

Increasing in number though- since 2018, it's Birmingham, Derby, Reading and Sheffield Wednesday- all penalised to date and potentially as per Jon Lansdown 7 or 8 more- us included- in the firing line.