Man city handball Vs Everton

[Will Rollason]

Watched Frank bemoaning it so I had a look.... Dear oh dear.. Even with VAR they couldn't get it right.

I mean it's not even borderline, it's handball, ref said he didn't see it . Fair enough but the VAR guys did and they said no penalty you don't need to have a look. ..

[stephenkibby.]

2 minutes ago, Will Rollason said:

Watched Frank bemoaning it so I had a look.... Dear oh dear.. Even with VAR they couldn't get it right.

I mean it's not even borderline, it's handball, ref said he didn't see it . Fair enough but the VAR guys did and they said no penalty you don't need to have a look. ..

Yeah but he only controlled it with one arm.

[red colin]

1 hour ago, stephenkibby. said:

Yeah but he only controlled it with one arm.

Well big issues ,If  we can't get that agreed as a 100 percent penalty the only thing I  can reasonably come up with is putin.....that's a penalty and and I hate Chelsea 

[Isawjonshaw]

The majority of the officiating at the Euros was really good imho.  How has it gone so downhill this season?

[BCFC1512]

Big clubs get the decisions FACT

[BCFC1512]

1 minute ago, Isawjonshaw said:

The majority of the officiating at the Euros was really good imho.  How has it gone so downhill this season?

The euros had nothing to do with the FA. UEFA do I right we don’t 

[Merrick's Marvels]

What is the handball rule these days?

Darned if I know. 

[MarcusX]

14 minutes ago, Isawjonshaw said:

The majority of the officiating at the Euros was really good imho.  How has it gone so downhill this season?

What’s that got to do with the Premier League?

Some sources said there was an offside in the build up before, though premier league official response was they couldn’t be certain it was handball. don’t forget Handball is anything below the sleeve now

Left pic looks like no handball to me, by that rule. Right looks handball but no way from that angle you can tell where it’s touching.

If not a clear and obvious error then no over rule?

[Rocking Red Cyril]

26 minutes ago, Taunton_BCFC said:

The euros had nothing to do with the FA. UEFA do I right we don’t 

AHH that's an interesting point . Why after the success of var and refs at the euros does the FA not follow UEFA lead ?. Who shall we shoot first ?

[Port Said Red]

6 hours ago, MarcusX said:

What’s that got to do with the Premier League?

Some sources said there was an offside in the build up before, though premier league official response was they couldn’t be certain it was handball. don’t forget Handball is anything below the sleeve now

Left pic looks like no handball to me, by that rule. Right looks handball but no way from that angle you can tell where it’s touching.

If not a clear and obvious error then no over rule?

Agreed, it wasn't a clear and obvious error so should not have been overturned, the match of the day team were totally in the wrong in the way they castigated the officials and it showed they didn't know the rule.

My problem with VAR is that the "clear and obvious" part of it's existence is so rarely applied.

[City oz]

4 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Agreed, it wasn't a clear and obvious error so should not have been overturned, the match of the day team were totally in the wrong in the way they castigated the officials and it showed they didn't know the rule.

My problem with VAR is that the "clear and obvious" part of it's existence is so rarely applied.

From the posts and down loaded evidence this is not a deliberate hand ball to me any way. I agree with Port.

[Slippin cider]

I’ve watched it a few times and for me it’s hand ball and pen . He tends to lean into it thus controlling the direction of the ball . 

[Port Said Red]

7 minutes ago, Slippin cider said:

I’ve watched it a few times and for me it’s hand ball and pen . He tends to lean into it thus controlling the direction of the ball . 

But are you sure it's below the sleeve as per the rule? 

[Slippin cider]

7 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

But are you sure it's below the sleeve as per the rule? 

Below the sleeve?…no just above I think. Certainly bicep area….Below seems quite a way down the arm but if that’s what the rule says then it was the correct decision. 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Slippin cider

[Waconda]

9 hours ago, Taunton_BCFC said:

Big clubs get the decisions FACT

Unconscious bias or even sometimes blatant cheating.

They have had this issue in American sports with replays for years. "Big" clubs, bigger advertising revenue, TV coverage and influence etc.

Goal line tech is fine but this rest is  joy killing, just accept the odd wrong decision by the officials and enjoy the game in real time.

 

[Waconda]

1 hour ago, Port Said Red said:

Agreed, it wasn't a clear and obvious error so should not have been overturned, the match of the day team were totally in the wrong in the way they castigated the officials and it showed they didn't know the rule.

My problem with VAR is that the "clear and obvious" part of it's existence is so rarely applied.

If you need video that is slowed down numerous times and zoomed in on then by definition it is not "clear and obvious".

That is "forensic".

 

[Port Said Red]

1 minute ago, VT05763 said:

If you need video that is slowed down numerous times and zoomed in on then by definition it is not "clear and obvious".

That is "forensic".

As I said at the end of my post, it's not being applied correctly in my opinion.

[Sir Geoff]

Handball all day long for me. Watching the game he raised his arm into an unnatural position, towards the ball and leant into it. Some of the ball is below the sleeve line. His reaction afterwards was telling, he knew he had hand balled it. Var took ages (again) to come out on the side of the bigger club.

[Will Rollason]

The amount of penalties given where the defender isn't even LOOKING at the ball ..... But not this ..

ref said to VAR" I didn't see it" and they come back with" no clear error"?? 

Guy called Kavannagh I believe on the VAR?

he needs some time off.

[1960maaan]

5 seconds and the VAR Ref should call the on field Ref over to look.
In real time it is almost impossible to tell where the imaginary VAR line on the arm, actually is. In fact, I'd dispute the Ref can see the contact. That means it's not even overturning a decision, but letting the Ref see it from a better angle . 

 

[The Fat Controller]

VAR is a failed experiment

[Lanterne Rouge]

Just seen Flint`s one v Fulham that wasn`t given. Nailed on IMO.

[Super]

Joke of a decision. 

[A Horse With No Name]

3 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

But are you sure it's below the sleeve as per the rule? 

Just wear long sleeve shirts, by the letter of the law hardly any handball penalties.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, VT05763 said:

Unconscious bias or even sometimes blatant cheating.

They have had this issue in American sports with replays for years. "Big" clubs, bigger advertising revenue, TV coverage and influence etc.

Goal line tech is fine but this rest is  joy killing, just accept the odd wrong decision by the officials and enjoy the game in real time.

 

Yep, GLT is definite, no subjectivity….and the technology is proven.  Even the Villa / Sheff Utd goal proved the ball was over the line, just that the SMS wasn’t received to the refs watch in a timely manner.

The rest, well the rules aren’t able to be determined in a black and white fashion, so it can’t possibly work…work well.

1 hour ago, VT05763 said:

If you need video that is slowed down numerous times and zoomed in on then by definition it is not "clear and obvious".

That is "forensic".

 

Yep, there should be no Stockley Park, just a ref able to check if he’s missed something.  Gets a standard set of camera views, real-time, and then makes his decision.  That’s as far as it should go, notwithstanding I don’t think it should be used anyway. 

53 minutes ago, sinenomine said:

VAR is a failed experiment

Yep, it needs to be removed if they can’t do better than what they have already.

[Cowshed]

11 hours ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

What is the handball rule these days?

Darned if I know. 

Handball x EPL x VAR. Using Var there is an assessment of does the ball hit a red area = offence or green = non offence.

According to guidance a players arm does not start at his shoulder. The red area starts above the elbow and so does the green. The pictures on this thread show a ball striking the green/red area = Its not conclusively a penalty = No clear and obvious error = Its not a penalty.

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Cowshed

[Leveller]

If this isn’t handball, then the current rule needs changing … again.

The point of the rule is to stop a player controlling the ball deliberately with their hand or arm. You can’t really do that with your shoulder, but you can with your upper arm, as he clearly did in this instance. He definitely controlled it and I’m 90% sure it was deliberate.

[Davefevs]

31 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Handball x EPL x VAR. Using Var there is an assessment of does the ball hit a red area = offence or green = non offence.

According to guidance a players arm does not start at his shoulder. The red area starts above the elbow and so does the green. The pictures on this thread show a ball striking the green/red area = Its not conclusively a penalty = No clear and obvious error = Its not a penalty.

 

Not sure whether your description is poorly worded / poorly interpreted, but you seem to imply there is an overlapping red and green area.  There’s not as far as the stuff I’ve read this morning.

[TBW]

Handball.

Stop with the stupid, "did he mean it", intent argument. Or ball-to-arm not arm-to-ball. If it's obvious and not an unavoidable plus it has given the player an advantage, it's a penalty.

That said, I really hate Liverpool so happy for Man City to take the points.

[MarcusX]

1 hour ago, The Horse With No Name said:

Just wear long sleeve shirts, by the letter of the law hardly any handball penalties.

I don’t think it’s literally the sleeve, just that portion of the arm

[1960maaan]

40 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Not sure whether your description is poorly worded / poorly interpreted, but you seem to imply there is an overlapping red and green area.  There’s not as far as the stuff I’ve read this morning.

I've always wanted to know, for someone like a Ref to come out and explain, where exactly that line is. What are the specific  rules to place that line.

Is it the shirt?  not all the same.
Is it some arbitrary line? Then we need measurements.
To have a line, drawn in mid air almost makes no sense.
Then does all the ball have to be over said line ? That means it could possibly hit your elbow ! 

 

[MarcusX]

34 minutes ago, TBW said:

Handball.

Stop with the stupid, "did he mean it", intent argument. Or ball-to-arm not arm-to-ball. If it's obvious and not an unavoidable plus it has given the player an advantage, it's a penalty.

That said, I really hate Liverpool so happy for Man City to take the points.

It’s still subjective, obvious to one is not to another. Handball is a rule that will rarely have 100% agreement except for example Suarez in the World Cup 

[RUSSEL85]

Handball, penalty. Simple. VAR wasn’t wrong, just idiots using it.

[sugarwray]

If the referee can tell the VAR that he is uncertain or did not see it as he would have liked then VAR do not have the higher burden of establishing a clear and obvious error. The evidence seems to be very strong but stops short of fully conclusive. If the ref says nothing to VAR they likely do not award a penalty. If he says he would like their standalone opinion it is in all probability a penalty. They are still humans and humans make mistakes, plenty of them. Mind you given that it is Man City I think they are looking for a “clean catch” to use a cricket term before changing the decision.

[Alex_BCFC]

Was listening on radio and they said it was offside before so kind of irrelevant?

[BS4 on Tour...]

5 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

But are you sure it's below the sleeve as per the rule? 

What if he had been wearing a long sleeved shirt? How does the rule cover that?

[Dastardly and Muttley]

If VAR is to be used, then it should be used like rugby. Another official watching the game and communicating with the on-field ref.

Anything missed by the on-field ref can be picked up, and the on-field ref can ask for clarification if he’s not sure.

The game would take longer, no doubt, but you should get more right decisions than wrong.

And the refs should be mic’d up.

[GrahamC]

13 hours ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

What is the handball rule these days?

Darned if I know. 

Depends who it is for or against.

 

[Speedwell red]

IT WAS OFFSIDE

[City exile 79]

I watched it in real time and saw his and his own players response. He waved his finger but his fellow defender seemed to be screaming wtf have you done

[Leveller]

6 hours ago, TBW said:

Handball.

Stop with the stupid, "did he mean it", intent argument. Or ball-to-arm not arm-to-ball. If it's obvious and not an unavoidable plus it has given the player an advantage, it's a penalty.

That said, I really hate Liverpool so happy for Man City to take the points.

What’s stupid about the intent argument? You think it should be handball whenever a ball is hit at someone’s arm? Intent is absolutely fundamental to me.

[Cowshed]

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Not sure whether your description is poorly worded / poorly interpreted, but you seem to imply there is an overlapping red and green area.  There’s not as far as the stuff I’ve read this morning.

I used conclusively. If its not conclusive  = No offence.  What could be improvement is that if its deemed the ball hits any part of the red area = Its a penalty.   

This was not deemed handball either.

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Cowshed

[TBW]

45 minutes ago, Leveller said:

What’s stupid about the intent argument? You think it should be handball whenever a ball is hit at someone’s arm? Intent is absolutely fundamental to me.

As I said, if it's completely unavoidable to get out of the way. Fine.

If you're stood on the goalline as the last man and the ball hits the arm accidentally but clearly preventing a goal. **** intent. It's changed the course.

[Leveller]

15 minutes ago, TBW said:

As I said, if it's completely unavoidable to get out of the way. Fine.

If you're stood on the goalline as the last man and the ball hits the arm accidentally but clearly preventing a goal. **** intent. It's changed the course.

The rule exists to prevent cheating by using your arm. Your suggestion is like giving a penalty if a forward runs into a defender when the defender can’t get out  of the way. 

[TBW]

30 minutes ago, Leveller said:

The rule exists to prevent cheating by using your arm. Your suggestion is like giving a penalty if a forward runs into a defender when the defender can’t get out  of the way. 

I've said twice now. If entirely unavoidable, fine. Don't give it. But using the word intent can't be the primary description. It needs to be about a clear and unarguable advantage. If the player had literally no time to possibly adjust that's different.

[MarcusX]

12 hours ago, Alex_BCFC said:

Was listening on radio and they said it was offside before so kind of irrelevant?

But the premier league have said it had nothing to do with the offside 

[Atlanta_Red]

I watched it here. The panel said it was handball but the Everton player was offside moments before, therefore negating the handball. 

[Clutton Caveman]

On 26/02/2022 at 23:34, Isawjonshaw said:

The majority of the officiating at the Euros was really good imho.  How has it gone so downhill this season?

I agree, for a while in the Championship you could actually tackle but now fall down and the whistle goes. Also the wrestling form corners is back in vogue

[redsince1994]

On 27/02/2022 at 11:27, Davefevs said:

Not sure whether your description is poorly worded / poorly interpreted, but you seem to imply there is an overlapping red and green area.  There’s not as far as the stuff I’ve read this morning.

Aha that explains it. According to this it is only handball if you use your left arm, Rodri used his right so no handball.

[Slippin cider]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60558875
 

Franks not happy! 

[Sleepy1968]

26 minutes ago, Slippin cider said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60558875
 

Franks not happy! 

At least something good has come out of this then.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Unless the BBC article already covered it, the actually seem to have lodged a complaint and make reference to VAR calls too.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12554018/incandescent-everton-complain-to-pl-over-referee-decisions

[Offside]

So when did this upper/lower arm rule start? It seems over-complicated in my opinion. To me, the Man City player controls the ball with his arm so it’s a penalty. I can see how Everton are outraged given that they are scrapping for points at the wrong end of the table. 

[Roe]

Making an official complaint about this 

As already mentioned, it looked offside anyway.

[Cowshed]

40 minutes ago, Offside said:

So when did this upper/lower arm rule start? It seems over-complicated in my opinion. To me, the Man City player controls the ball with his arm so it’s a penalty. I can see how Everton are outraged given that they are scrapping for points at the wrong end of the table. 

20 -21. 

What's new in 2020/21: Handball Laws (premierleague.com)

[Slippin cider]

An apology:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60572525

[REDOXO]

On 26/02/2022 at 17:58, MarcusX said:

What’s that got to do with the Premier League?

Some sources said there was an offside in the build up before, though premier league official response was they couldn’t be certain it was handball. don’t forget Handball is anything below the sleeve now

Left pic looks like no handball to me, by that rule. Right looks handball but no way from that angle you can tell where it’s touching.

If not a clear and obvious error then no over rule?

Without going to far down the was this a handball road I will say this.

Clear and obvious error!!?. If we need to take more than 30 seconds to look at a decision it was not a clear and obvious error. 
 

The electronic lines and fractionalized pictures at offsides in of themselves prove it was not a clear and obvious error. Until everyone comes to terms with how to apply the rule then this crap will go on and on.