Table based on games played

[Shuffle]

If there wasn’t  point deductions for both Derby & Reading we would be 3 points clear of drop zone with 6 to play. I certainly wouldn’t be confident of us picking up enough points to stay up as at best can see us picking up a max of 6.

Would the goodwill that Pearson still carries with quite a few still prevail if the table was based on games played?  All hypothetical as points deductions have been made but would otib be as calm and considered as it is ? 

[DaveF]

No.

[GrahamC]

You’re right on 2 accounts mate.

It is hypothetical but also if we were sailing that close to the wind it would be less calm on here, not that personally I always think it is..

You could argue though it has also impacted Pearson’s decision making, although he would deny it I do think playing Bell, giving Cundy a run, Kalas dropping out is being done with next season in mind & in the knowledge that realistically we have been safe for about a month now.

Need to tell you an interesting story on Saturday when I see you just before KO, too

[Waconda]

5 minutes ago, Shuffle said:

If there wasn’t  point deductions for both Derby & Reading we would be 3 points clear of drop zone with 6 to play. I certainly wouldn’t be confident of us picking up enough points to stay up as at best can see us picking up a max of 6.

Would the goodwill that Pearson still carries with quite a few still prevail if the table was based on games played?  All hypothetical as points deductions have been made but would otib be as calm and considered as it is ? 

Yes because of the "there is literally no one who could coach these players any better." narrative that is constantly being spouted as an excuse.

 

[Super]

9 minutes ago, Shuffle said:

If there wasn’t  point deductions for both Derby & Reading we would be 3 points clear of drop zone with 6 to play. I certainly wouldn’t be confident of us picking up enough points to stay up as at best can see us picking up a max of 6.

Would the goodwill that Pearson still carries with quite a few still prevail if the table was based on games played?  All hypothetical as points deductions have been made but would otib be as calm and considered as it is ? 

Not sure Pearson would still be here tbh.

[Taz]

I've actually just posted this in response to a topic in the transfer forum about Han Noah, Scott and Semenyo being sold, and Pearson possibly walking if it were to happen. It's actually quite relevant for here as well so I'll copy it below: 

At least one will likely be going, and I agree that if all 3 are sold he could walk. 

Whilst I'm not a Pearson must stay, nor a Pearson must go person, I'm conflicted about him going. 

On the one hand, he's come in, assessed what the issues are, and after seeing/hearing his interviews and chats, I'm under no illusions that he will have spoken directly to SL and told him how things are, what the problems are, and solutions to said problems. Along with Gould in place, that side of things doesn't bother me.

On the other hand, he's now had plenty of time to implement his style, plans, and get to know the players and staff here. Yes his hands have been tied somewhat with the financial issues, and he hasn't been able to maybe make as many changes as he would have liked/needed, and certain players have been unlucky with injuries (Baker, King and James first come into my head). However, we still make schoolboy errors, still concede late, and still need at least 2 goals per game to get anything from it (on average). Him and Fleming were defenders at the top level in England, so it worries me deeply that we are so inept at the back, especially so late on in games.

If, selling all three meant that we get £50-60m (up front to be used immediately, ignore sell on fees and clauses for now), and at least half would be made available for Pearson to reinvest, then he may stick, and replace them, along with a few other vital missing cogs. Here's the kicker though, after seeing him bring in James (admittedly playing with an injury) King (unlucky with injury?) and Simpson, do I trust him with that amount of money?

If Pearson were to walk, would it be such a disaster? He has made it quite clear that he has a 3 year plan, and to  not expect too much too soon. 

I think along with those 3 young players initially mentioned (sorry for going off on a bit of a tangent), I would actually be more concerned with Wiemann being sold.....

It's a difficult scenario, because we've been told not too expect much. That being said though, we don't seem to be much better off than we were last year, and Pearson by the end of the season will have had more than a season in charge.

If he were to go (for whatever reason), then I would worry that we would be taking a huge step backwards once again, but also that the next man would be either Fleming (promotion) or another Johnson-like project (up and coming younger guy). Pearson I think is Steve's final throw of the "experienced" appointment, of which the last one (Coppell) ended before it had started really. He felt badly burned, however you could argue that it was partly his fault for becoming too involved in signing players "allegedly".

For me, I think that Pearson stays, until at least October, to see what happens in this upcoming transfer window, and to see how the start of next season pans out. If by mid October we are looking much like we do now, or worse, then maybe it's best for all to change things up.

This was always going to be a hard slog though, no matter who was appointed, and expectations should be low because we've been crippled financially (even before Covid). It is a tough one, but unless Pearson actually wants out himself, then October is the earliest that we should be thinking of making a change.

[grifty]

20 minutes ago, Shuffle said:

If there wasn’t  point deductions for both Derby & Reading we would be 3 points clear of drop zone with 6 to play. I certainly wouldn’t be confident of us picking up enough points to stay up as at best can see us picking up a max of 6.

Would the goodwill that Pearson still carries with quite a few still prevail if the table was based on games played?  All hypothetical as points deductions have been made but would otib be as calm and considered as it is ? 

Hypothetically if we had won all our games, we would be top of the league.

[Shuffle]

11 minutes ago, Taz said:

I've actually just posted this in response to a topic in the transfer forum about Han Noah, Scott and Semenyo being sold, and Pearson possibly walking if it were to happen. It's actually quite relevant for here as well so I'll copy it below: 

At least one will likely be going, and I agree that if all 3 are sold he could walk. 

Whilst I'm not a Pearson must stay, nor a Pearson must go person, I'm conflicted about him going. 

On the one hand, he's come in, assessed what the issues are, and after seeing/hearing his interviews and chats, I'm under no illusions that he will have spoken directly to SL and told him how things are, what the problems are, and solutions to said problems. Along with Gould in place, that side of things doesn't bother me.

On the other hand, he's now had plenty of time to implement his style, plans, and get to know the players and staff here. Yes his hands have been tied somewhat with the financial issues, and he hasn't been able to maybe make as many changes as he would have liked/needed, and certain players have been unlucky with injuries (Baker, King and James first come into my head). However, we still make schoolboy errors, still concede late, and still need at least 2 goals per game to get anything from it (on average). Him and Fleming were defenders at the top level in England, so it worries me deeply that we are so inept at the back, especially so late on in games.

If, selling all three meant that we get £50-60m (up front to be used immediately, ignore sell on fees and clauses for now), and at least half would be made available for Pearson to reinvest, then he may stick, and replace them, along with a few other vital missing cogs. Here's the kicker though, after seeing him bring in James (admittedly playing with an injury) King (unlucky with injury?) and Simpson, do I trust him with that amount of money?

If Pearson were to walk, would it be such a disaster? He has made it quite clear that he has a 3 year plan, and to  not expect too much too soon. 

I think along with those 3 young players initially mentioned (sorry for going off on a bit of a tangent), I would actually be more concerned with Wiemann being sold.....

It's a difficult scenario, because we've been told not too expect much. That being said though, we don't seem to be much better off than we were last year, and Pearson by the end of the season will have had more than a season in charge.

If he were to go (for whatever reason), then I would worry that we would be taking a huge step backwards once again, but also that the next man would be either Fleming (promotion) or another Johnson-like project (up and coming younger guy). Pearson I think is Steve's final throw of the "experienced" appointment, of which the last one (Coppell) ended before it had started really. He felt badly burned, however you could argue that it was partly his fault for becoming too involved in signing players "allegedly".

For me, I think that Pearson stays, until at least October, to see what happens in this upcoming transfer window, and to see how the start of next season pans out. If by mid October we are looking much like we do now, or worse, then maybe it's best for all to change things up.

This was always going to be a hard slog though, no matter who was appointed, and expectations should be low because we've been crippled financially (even before Covid). It is a tough one, but unless Pearson actually wants out himself, then October is the earliest that we should be thinking of making a change.

Good post and reflects exactly where I am with Pearson.

[DaveF]

19 minutes ago, Waconda said:

Yes because of the "there is literally no one who could coach these players any better." narrative that is constantly being spouted as an excuse.

 

Is there? For the most part people seem pretty realistic. Pearson has a tough job on his hands and he has done an OK if a slightly underwhelming job so far.

Obviously other managers may have done better, they also may have done worse.

Barnsley finished 5th last season, if they lose on Saturday they're as good as down so it could be worse...

[Mendip City]

I feel the point deductions have done SL and NP a massive favour. They mask the true extent of our footballing failings this year - as said above, ongoing issues with lack of identity, simple mistakes being made again and again, injury record little better than last year, lack of true investment in the squad. 
SL appears to be keeping his head down and NP holding the fort.
Forget  3 year plans, where’s the required investment in the squad going to come from? NP’s role will just be firefighting and trying to keep us where we are for the foreseeable. 
One of the problems now is turning around the psychological rut of a club struggling, used to losing going back years now (remember all of LJ’s awful runs?). History tells me that the next stop is likely to be League 1 (unfortunately). 
It needs some impetus- either from SL or outside investment and I think should that happen it will also need a change of team management to get a positive winning mindset back into the place. 

[Waconda]

8 minutes ago, DaveF said:

Is there? For the most part people seem pretty realistic. Pearson has a tough job on his hands and he has done an OK if a slightly underwhelming job so far.

Obviously other managers may have done better, they also may have done worse.

Barnsley finished 5th last season, if they lose on Saturday they're as good as down so it could be worse...

Fair comment. We will never know is the answer.

Barnsley is a great example of where a coach got more out of less last season. 

[Taz]

9 minutes ago, Mendip City said:

I feel the point deductions have done SL and NP a massive favour. They mask the true extent of our footballing failings this year - as said above, ongoing issues with lack of identity, simple mistakes being made again and again, injury record little better than last year, lack of true investment in the squad. 
SL appears to be keeping his head down and NP holding the fort.
Forget  3 year plans, where’s the required investment in the squad going to come from? NP’s role will just be firefighting and trying to keep us where we are for the foreseeable. 
One of the problems now is turning around the psychological rut of a club struggling, used to losing going back years now (remember all of LJ’s awful runs?). History tells me that the next stop is likely to be League 1 (unfortunately). 
It needs some impetus- either from SL or outside investment and I think should that happen it will also need a change of team management to get a positive winning mindset back into the place. 

That I think is the concern for most people. It's what we do - get promoted, flirt with promotion and/or a very promising cup run, have a few years slipping down the table, get relegated, reset, and build again.

If we can avoid the bit where we get relegated again, then we're not doing too badly. Form over the past 2 years though would suggest a relegation is/could be on the cards. Personally I think we will avoid that bit, but if Pearson is the man to change history repeating itself, then he needs to start next season a hell of a lot better. Goodwill only lasts a short time, people will soon change their tune if we start next season in a similar form to this one - even if there was another 2 clubs below us on points deductions.

[Mendip City]

4 minutes ago, Taz said:

That I think is the concern for most people. It's what we do - get promoted, flirt with promotion and/or a very promising cup run, have a few years slipping down the table, get relegated, reset, and build again.

If we can avoid the bit where we get relegated again, then we're not doing too badly. Form over the past 2 years though would suggest a relegation is/could be on the cards. Personally I think we will avoid that bit, but if Pearson is the man to change history repeating itself, then he needs to start next season a hell of a lot better. Goodwill only lasts a short time, people will soon change their tune if we start next season in a similar form to this one - even if there was another 2 clubs below us on points deductions.

Agree and yes he does need to improve things next season… he’ll just sound like broken record if not. The truth is the without the point deductions we’d have  been in a relegation battle his entire tenure. That’s not good for the health of the club. 
 

I hope we don’t get relegated but equally don’t want years more relegation form - it’s just not enjoyable! 
Trouble is, bouncing back would not be easy - League One is strong! 

[SydneyCity]

I’d like to think Nige wouldn’t have made the same decisions if there were no points deductions.

I was supportive of the “LJ is here so long as we’re improving in the league” stance that the club took - despite not liking his personality and having zero connection with the clubs in the bag that he was assembling. Hindsight shows that just focussing on the league position was a bit stupid of me.

Despite our position, I have seen some of the most entertaining football I’ve seen in years this season (yes there have been some shockers too) and I’m genuinely invested and interested in our crop of young players coming through and the resurgent Andi Weimann. I’m even going to go as far as saying the whole WSM strike force.

Roll on next year under Nige. It’s not perfect, sometimes it’s not even good, but it is Bristol City.

 

[Show Me The Money!]

@Taz Can’t see us getting anywhere near £50-£60 million. No chance. £15 million tops for all 3.

[steveybadger]

6 minutes ago, Show Me The Money! said:

@Taz Can’t see us getting anywhere near £50-£60 million. No chance. £15 million tops for all 3.

Between the 2 I suspect, but hopefully zero !

[Roger Red Hat]

2 hours ago, Waconda said:

Yes because of the "there is literally no one who could coach these players any better." narrative that is constantly being spouted as an excuse.

 

You say that with the knowledge, a)our owners would appoint the correct option and, b)that person would want to come here! And c)who is it?

[Steve Watts]

19 minutes ago, Show Me The Money! said:

@Taz Can’t see us getting anywhere near £50-£60 million. No chance. £15 million tops for all 3.

There is absolutely no chance in hell that we would accept an average of £5m for each of those players.  With our selling record over the last few years that simply sounds ludicrous.  Unless you meant £15m each for them, in which case yes, we may accept with hefty sell-ons added.

[Taz]

25 minutes ago, Show Me The Money! said:

@Taz Can’t see us getting anywhere near £50-£60 million. No chance. £15 million tops for all 3.

 

4 minutes ago, Steve Watts said:

There is absolutely no chance in hell that we would accept an average of £5m for each of those players.  With our selling record over the last few years that simply sounds ludicrous.  Unless you meant £15m each for them, in which case yes, we may accept with hefty sell-ons added.

Agree with what @Steve Watts said.

Of course all hypothetical figures, but somebody (can't remember who - apologies) gave the Lloyd Kelly transfer as an example with regards to any potential transfer involving Scott. Firstly, Scott is not a defender, which in itself should result in a bigger starting position for a transfer fee. Secondly I think the potential  ceiling for Scott is higher than Kelly (in the respect that a bigger club than Bournemouth come in for him).

Semenyo slightly different as he hasn't been consistently scoring until this season, however the further forward you go in the team, the higher the fees become, so let's just say for arguments sake we get £20m for Scott, and £10-15m for Semenyo, because this is his best season. Han Noah, potentially the same as Antoine, so all three potentially between £40-50m. Of course that all depends on how much more active clubs are in the market this year, as well as how much they want our assets.

Let's not forget if a few of the "rumoured" clubs that are interested in any of the three get involved in a bidding war, then who knows what fee(s) we may get. We've set ourselves a precedent though when it comes to dealing with transfer fees, so any potential buyers need to be aware that we aren't pushovers.

I really hope we don't sell all 3, however they are the more likely to be on clubs wish lists.

For what it's worth, I think Bentley will be moved on in the summer as well. Just a feeling I have.

[Mendip City]

1 minute ago, Taz said:

 

Agree with what @Steve Watts said.

Of course all hypothetical figures, but somebody (can't remember who - apologies) gave the Lloyd Kelly transfer as an example with regards to any potential transfer involving Scott. Firstly, Scott is not a defender, which in itself should result in a bigger starting position for a transfer fee. Secondly I think the potential  ceiling for Scott is higher than Kelly (in the respect that a bigger club than Bournemouth come in for him).

Semenyo slightly different as he hasn't been consistently scoring until this season, however the further forward you go in the team, the higher the fees become, so let's just say for arguments sake we get £20m for Scott, and £10-15m for Semenyo, because this is his best season. Han Noah, potentially the same as Antoine, so all three potentially between £40-50m. Of course that all depends on how much more active clubs are in the market this year, as well as how much they want our assets.

Let's not forget if a few of the "rumoured" clubs that are interested in any of the three get involved in a bidding war, then who knows what fee(s) we may get. We've set ourselves a precedent though when it comes to dealing with transfer fees, so any potential buyers need to be aware that we aren't pushovers.

I really hope we don't sell all 3, however they are the more likely to be on clubs wish lists.

For what it's worth, I think Bentley will be moved on in the summer as well. Just a feeling I have.

I agree on Bentley - I’m also wary that some of the bigger Championship players might fancy Weimann… could be a massive rebuild needed if everyone goes. I can see HNM going but fee won’t be as high as some would hope - he’s still very much stop/start in his progress. Semenyo, if any Prem offers come in will be gone. I reckon the most likely to still be here is Scott, another year or two to develop - or if someone wants him now, we should look to agree a loan back to us… he’s not going to be a Prem regular next season.  
 

I’m almost of the mindset that we’d be better losing them all and starting again than losing one and only being able to clear a bit of debt and tinker with the existing squad.  

The challenge then is, can NP work some magic with a healthy war chest…. Or will losing players become next season’s reason/excuse for another struggle. 
 

 

[pongo88]

2 hours ago, grifty said:

Hypothetically if we had won all our games, we would be top of the league.

True, but that ignores the point being made by @Shuffle. - i.e. the points deductions are hiding the fact that City has slipped from a team pushing for the playoffs to a relegation standard team in less than 2 seasons. 

[Taz]

20 minutes ago, Mendip City said:

I agree on Bentley - I’m also wary that some of the bigger Championship players might fancy Weimann… could be a massive rebuild needed if everyone goes. I can see HNM going but fee won’t be as high as some would hope - he’s still very much stop/start in his progress. Semenyo, if any Prem offers come in will be gone. I reckon the most likely to still be here is Scott, another year or two to develop - or if someone wants him now, we should look to agree a loan back to us… he’s not going to be a Prem regular next season.  
 

I’m almost of the mindset that we’d be better losing them all and starting again than losing one and only being able to clear a bit of debt and tinker with the existing squad.  

The challenge then is, can NP work some magic with a healthy war chest…. Or will losing players become next season’s reason/excuse for another struggle. 
 

 

Can't argue with any of that. Han Noah is the one where we will get the least money for though I think.

[Ivorguy]

Better to regroup mid table in league 1 or struggle again at bottom of Championship?

I know which would give supporters something to cheer and give realistic hopes of promotion.

Only once in my over 70 years of following City have we ever been promoted from Championship level.  If my father, lifelong City supporter, were alive today he would be 105, and would still only have seen one promotion!

How will we ever get back to the Wedlock days when we competed at top level and reached FA Cup Final?  To do this we need a whole new mindset. I still believe NP has that mindset.

[Sir Geoff]

If, if, if we hadn't conceded so many late goals we would be comfortably in mid table, even looking at play offs. All hypothetical..To quote a well known football manager, It is what it is.

[The Journalist]

4 hours ago, Waconda said:

Yes because of the "there is literally no one who could coach these players any better." narrative that is constantly being spouted as an excuse.

 

Who said that?! Not being facetious, genuine question.

[Waconda]

6 minutes ago, The Journalist said:

Who said that?! Not being facetious, genuine question.

Dozens of times on threads on here. 

Don't a have list of who and when but can assure you I have read that nonsense multiple times over the last year.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Waconda

[LondonBristolian]

5 hours ago, Shuffle said:

If there wasn’t  point deductions for both Derby & Reading we would be 3 points clear of drop zone with 6 to play. I certainly wouldn’t be confident of us picking up enough points to stay up as at best can see us picking up a max of 6.

Would the goodwill that Pearson still carries with quite a few still prevail if the table was based on games played?  All hypothetical as points deductions have been made but would otib be as calm and considered as it is ? 

I think there are two considerations with hypothetical scenarios

1) The points deductions aren't random. Derby and Reading were deducted points to compensate for them gaining an unfair advantage by operating outside the spending restrictions that apply to other clubs. Therefore this hypothetical table is not necessarily fairer or more accurate than the real one.

2) Different outcomes produce different psychological responses. You could argue that Derby's results have been influenced by an "us against the world" mentality and that they may not have picked up as many points without a point to prove stemming from the points deduction. Similarly - as @GrahamCpoints out - our team selections and our own mentality may have been impacted by a belief we are essentially safe and planning for next season. If we actually were in the midst a relegation scrap, we would have approached the games differently (which could have been for better or worse).

I think my point is that - whilst I know you are being hypothetical - it is very likely that, had the points deductions not happened, the table would look quite different to the table you get when you remove the impact of the points deductions that have happened. Some clubs might have got better results and some might have got worse but I think the impact of points deductions on everything else means that - without those deductions - the table would be substantively different and we would likely not be three points clear of relegation. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by LondonBristolian
Minor grammar correction.

[Mendip City]

1 hour ago, Taz said:

Can't argue with any of that. Han Noah is the one where we will get the least money for though I think.

Agree with that and also, Weimann won’t command much of a few if anyone wants him (age/length of contract). On current form he’s worth way more to us than his market value*
 

*unless this season is a one off… 

[LondonBristolian]

4 hours ago, Waconda said:

Yes because of the "there is literally no one who could coach these players any better." narrative that is constantly being spouted as an excuse.

 

To be honest, I think there are plenty of managers who could coach these players better. But I don't think that's the consideration with Pearson. I don't think he was appointed as the best person to do a good job with the players we had but due to a realisation the model we had was not working, the squad we had wasn't good enough and we needed someone who was willing to overhaul the club in terms of the personnel, the coaching and the culture. 

At the moment, I think the jury is definitely out on whether we are moving in the right direction and - when we look back in the next couple of years - whether his appointment will prove to be a good thing or a bad thing. But I also think it's unfair to judge him simply on the standard of "is the the best person to coach the players we have?" because, if we were happy with the players we had, I'm not convinced we'd have appointed Pearson in the first place. 

[Waconda]

21 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

To be honest, I think there are plenty of managers who could coach these players better. But I don't think that's the consideration with Pearson. I don't think he was appointed as the best person to do a good job with the players we had but due to a realisation the model we had was not working, the squad we had wasn't good enough and we needed someone who was willing to overhaul the club in terms of the personnel, the coaching and the culture. 

At the moment, I think the jury is definitely out on whether we are moving in the right direction and - when we look back in the next couple of years - whether his appointment will prove to be a good thing or a bad thing. But I also think it's unfair to judge him simply on the standard of "is the the best person to coach the players we have?" because, if we were happy with the players we had, I'm not convinced we'd have appointed Pearson in the first place. 

A very sensible and balanced post.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Waconda

[Show Me The Money!]

@Taz @Steve Watts just my opinion but I just don’t think we will get the kind of offers people hope will solve all our financial issues.

HNM is still very young and inconsistent

Scott also very young and raw

 Semenyo, still young and not potent enough in front of goal to attract big fee offers. 
 

None of them are prem ready like Webster and Brownhill were hence I think we won’t get big offers for them.

 It’s whether we can financially keep hold of them till they do attract those bigger kind of offers which I don’t disagree they could be worth in time

[Steve Watts]

10 minutes ago, Show Me The Money! said:

@Taz @Steve Watts just my opinion but I just don’t think we will get the kind of offers people hope will solve all our financial issues.

HNM is still very young and inconsistent

Scott also very young and raw

 Semenyo, still young and not potent enough in front of goal to attract big fee offers. 
 

None of them are prem ready like Webster and Brownhill were hence I think we won’t get big offers for them.

 It’s whether we can financially keep hold of them till they do attract those bigger kind of offers which I don’t disagree they could be worth in time

The thing you're looking at with all three though is that we're not necessarily selling the player but rather selling the potential.  All of these players have the potential to reach the very top with the right coaching and in the right environment.  The clubs that would be looking at them know that there is a high chance of a large profit on each of them. Two other things to consider is that 1) We don't need to sell, so silly low prices won't get them and 2) we turned down a rumoured £12(?)m bid for AS on deadline day didn't we?  I may have got the figure wrong, but it was reported that it fell short of out valuation nearer £20m.

In other words, pay what we want or bog off!

[Show Me The Money!]

50 minutes ago, Steve Watts said:

The thing you're looking at with all three though is that we're not necessarily selling the player but rather selling the potential.  All of these players have the potential to reach the very top with the right coaching and in the right environment.  The clubs that would be looking at them know that there is a high chance of a large profit on each of them. Two other things to consider is that 1) We don't need to sell, so silly low prices won't get them and 2) we turned down a rumoured £12(?)m bid for AS on deadline day didn't we?  I may have got the figure wrong, but it was reported that it fell short of out valuation nearer £20m.

In other words, pay what we want or bog off!

Players with potential don’t tend to go for as big amounts as players pretty much ready to go.

If we have had a £12 mill bid for AS and turned it down then great but I don’t think we’d get similar offers for Semenyo and HNS for the reasons I pointed out earlier.

As I also said if we can afford to keep hold of them and get more once they are fulfilling that potential more then great

 I guess we’ll find out in the summer. Hoping your right and I’m wrong and we get huge bids for all of them and KP.

 Ok, kidding about that last one. I’ll accept anything 

[Davefevs]

8 hours ago, Waconda said:

Fair comment. We will never know is the answer.

Barnsley is a great example of where a coach got more out of less last season. 

And that same coach is a great example of one who got “less out of more” this season.

How you explain that?

[Edgy Red]

7 hours ago, Show Me The Money! said:

@Taz Can’t see us getting anywhere near £50-£60 million. No chance. £15 million tops for all 3.

Unfortunately, i agree with your valuations. I think we could get 20 mill at a push with some significant add ons, but 50 mill is dreaming.

Massengo's valuation has plummeted and whilst Scott and Semenyo both have promise, they aren't in the same bracket as players like Johnson at Forest and Lewis-Potter at Hull.

I would like to hope we will only sell one of the 3 this summer, but time will tell!

[Davefevs]

9 hours ago, Shuffle said:

If there wasn’t  point deductions for both Derby & Reading we would be 3 points clear of drop zone with 6 to play. I certainly wouldn’t be confident of us picking up enough points to stay up as at best can see us picking up a max of 6.

Would the goodwill that Pearson still carries with quite a few still prevail if the table was based on games played?  All hypothetical as points deductions have been made but would otib be as calm and considered as it is ? 

Without going over too much old ground across many other posts and threads…

I fully expect Pearson expected to do better this season at the start of the season.

As the season progressed, points deductions made, City ticking over with a little over a point per game, to mean safety was never an issue…I think he cut his cloth accordingly.

Had he wanted to invest last summer or in January, would he have had enough money available to make a major difference, e.g. play-off battle?  The answer is no.  Gambling on that and failing would’ve meant busting FFP this season, embargo, possible points deduction this season and next.  As it stands we have plenty of wiggle room.

But the pressure was always focussed on next season, because of the fuckwhittery of an approach to finances previously.  That Lloyd Kelly transfer in May 2019 to show a profit in that financial year was completely unnecessary, and is why next season is at risk of busting FFP.  Had they made that transfer on 1st June instead there would be no FFP issues next season…we’d actually be several million inside it.

All because someone wanted to post an ego-driven first profit!!!  Pisses me off hugely.

So, the best chance of creating headroom for next season, was to spend as little as possible this season, find out about as many players as possible and go from there.  That has pretty much been done.  It’s a success, but not tangible on the pitch which is why we have mixed views on OTIB.

Has the season panned out great?  Nope.

Has it been a disaster?  Nope either.

Has it been done as cheaply as possible?  Pretty much.

Can other managers coach the players better?  I suspect so.

Could those same managers have laid the foundation in as cost effective way as Pearson?  We will never know, but I’m not sure many / any would’ve accepted the challenge in the first place either.

Lots of ifs, buts and maybes in both sides of the argument.  People who fail to acknowledge that this is not a black and white argument, are burying their heads in their own agendas…on whichever side the fall.

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, Edgy Red said:

Unfortunately, i agree with your valuations. I think we could get 20 mill at a push with some significant add ons, but 50 mill is dreaming.

Massengo's valuation has plummeted and whilst Scott and Semenyo both have promise, they aren't in the same bracket as players like Johnson at Forest and Lewis-Potter at Hull.

I would like to hope we will only sell one of the 3 this summer, but time will tell!

If I was guessing on valuations, I’d say £4-6M Massengo, £8-12 Semenyo, Scott, absolutely no bloody idea!

[Edgy Red]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

If I was guessing on valuations, I’d say £4-6M Massengo, £8-12 Semenyo, Scott, absolutely no bloody idea!

That looks about right Dave, but like you say, none of us have really got a clue

Frank Lampard might get desperate at Everton next season and bid 25 mill for Semenyo!

[Son of Fred]

3 hours ago, Steve Watts said:

we turned down a rumoured £12(?)m bid for AS on deadline day didn't we? 

'We' must be crazy.....

[Waconda]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

And that same coach is a great example of one who got “less out of more” this season.

How you explain that?

Yes he failed and got sacked.

In the past he did well and in the present he didn't that's how it works (well most of the time).

[Davefevs]

24 minutes ago, Waconda said:

Yes he failed and got sacked.

In the past he did well and in the present he didn't that's how it works (well most of the time).

Has Pearson failed….in your opinion?

[Rocking Red Cyril]

Some very Interesting posts here. Some I agree with done not. But strikes me it all come down to SL and available money. 

If, good forbid, all three are sold, it should raise 50 mill. If not then do not sell. Yes NP might walk. if this is done because it shows no forward thinking . But if NP gets this to reinvest then maybe there some sense in it. You would hope the targets would already have been found and agents tinkled. Can SL make any more money available to SL under FFP. 

Does Bents, Kala's get sold for decent fees. Can they off load Palmer and Wells.

There is a heap of questions there that I honestly feel none of us here have true idea as to what may happen.

And would sacking NP really help.

We are right in the shit and am getting more worried that the next few seasons just staying in the championship will be the only Real target.

I really think SL is still seeking further investment partnerships. But I know jack shit .

 

[Lrrr]

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

If I was guessing on valuations, I’d say £4-6M Massengo, £8-12 Semenyo, Scott, absolutely no bloody idea!

I think we get more for Scott, ask any other club what they want for their England U19 and you'd get asked for more, he's our real ace card in terms of value.

[cityfan1958]

Selling the young up and coming players is a secondary issue.

Persuading Palmer, Wells, Kalas and maybe Bentley to seek employment elsewhere is the number one most important issue for the summer.

If they go so does the need to sell the younger players.

[Waconda]

On 06/04/2022 at 23:00, Davefevs said:

Has Pearson failed….in your opinion?

In the middle of failing tailspin.

[Guest whoklldredrobin]

For the avoidance of doubt – this is our true league position, once points deductions are removed – two points off the bottom three:

 

17 Derby 41 -7 49

18 Cardiff 40 -14 49

19 Birmingham 41 -17 45

20 CITY 41 -21 45

21 Hull 41 -11 44

22 Reading 41 -29 43

23 Barnsley 40 -29 29

24 Peterboro 41 -48 28

 

This gives a clearer picture of where we are as a club.

With a mooted points deduction and lack of money to spend in the summer, our Championship status is very much all to play for next season. Surely the powers-that-be (whether they are intending to sell or not) don't want to be saddled with a League One club, especially as that could well mean we are on equal footing with the other lot for the first time in a couple of decades.

How we respond as fans – whether that is backing the manger or calling for his head, renewing our season tickets or throwing them at the directors box etc – is down to us.

It also begs the question of whether we would less 'passive' in our play, or as a club, if we are actually were in a relegation scrap. 

Personally, I would like to see clear direction from the top down. When Pat Lam took over at Bristol Bears he famously got everyone at the club in a room and showed them Bristol's results over previous years and asked them whether they were good enough. (Spoiler – they weren't). He publicly stated his plan was to take the club into the Premiership, get them playing Champions Cup rugby, produce Bristol-born players for England and be a positive presence in the community. He said to achieve that dream you had to have a plan, because without a plan, there is no belief. Although the rugby club's league form has dipped this season, almost five years later they have won promotion, lifted their first European trophy, topped the league last year (albeit lost in the play-offs for the second successive year), have two players in the England side and currently have a good chance of reaching the last eight of rugby's Champions League. 

While our chance of playing Champions League football are next to non-existent, and our financial clout in football will not be equitable to the rugby club, we can still dream, we can still plan and still believe we can achieve success on the pitch*. But we have to define what that success is and communicate it properly.

If we have no money to spend that is fine; if we have to play homegrown players that is fine; if our aspiration is to slowly work our way up the Championship table and incrementally improve that is fine; if our plan is to play entertaining, attacking football (yes, please) that is fine too – but if we have to have a measure to work against. That builds clarity and allows us as paying supporters (as well as those within the club) to fairly judge whether we are going in the right direction. Of course, there may well be a plan, but I haven't seen it communicated clearly.

At the moment, it feels as though we are drifting passively waiting for something to happen – with a non-existent board, and an experienced manager who is rapidly turning into the man who shouts at the clouds while the world is falling apart around him. To quote the fans on Saturday: 'That Is Embarrassing'. 

* The stadium and training ground, branding, community programmes are to be applauded. They make the club a more attractive and saleable prospect and have improved the fans' experience in many ways. But in my eyes – and many others – we are not Bristol Sport but Bristol City, and the 'group's' success will always be defined by results on the pitch. 

 

[TonyTonyTony]

Do we need yet another thread of self flagellation?

Ill be in my bunk

[Unan]

So… not our true legal position?

[Robbored]

24 minutes ago, Marcus Aurelius said:

So… not our true legal position?

Of course it’s not - our  actual league position is 19th on 45 points. Just look at the Championship table………..

[GrahamC]

Just now, Robbored said:

Of course it’s not - our  actual league position is 19th on 45 points. Just look at the Championship table………..

Bloody hell! He’s right.

[Wanderingred]

IF there were no points deductions, and City were indeed in the position shown in the original post, would you be confident of avoiding the drop? It would certainly be exciting… the Hull game would be massive!

Edited April 11, 2022 by Wanderingred

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Wanderingred said:

IF there were no points deductions, and City were indeed in the position shown in the original post, would you be confident of avoiding the drop? It would certainly be exciting… the Hull game would be massive!

As my uncle used to say - “if the horse had stopped for a shit it wouldn’t have win the race”!

[Sleepy1968]

Just imagine GMG putting this to NP in the next presser. I think he'd get punched in the throat via the internet.

[Slippin cider]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

As my uncle used to say - “if the horse had stopped for a shit it wouldn’t have win the race”!

If my uncle had been born a girl he would have been my aunt ….

[GrahamC]

6 minutes ago, Wanderingred said:

IF there were no points deductions, and City were indeed in the position shown in the original post, would you be confident of avoiding the drop? It would certainly be exciting… the Hull game would be massive!

If I hadn’t had a paper round I’d have been a professional footballer.

If Juliette Binoche had hung around St. George in the late 1970s I’m sure we would be together now..

None of these 3 things are the case.

[NcnsBcfc]

Really hypothetical isn't it?

We've never really seen the side put under relegation pressure in each of the last two seasons.

Who knows how they would of reacted? Maybe it would have been positively fighting, and battling for every point.

All i know is, that without that threat, the 20/21 & 21/22 teams have drifted through their seasons in a somewhat apathetic state, that on the whole has infuriated the fans.

I don't think we'll be able to pull that off for another season. Relying on other  teams yet again for the 22/23 season may well be our downfall.

Edited April 11, 2022 by NcnsBcfc

[Guest whoklldredrobin]

Everyone is wilfully missing the point here – OF COURSE it is not our actual league position, of course we don't have to worry about relegation, of course it is hypothetical hahahaha... but it does show where we actually are in terms of form, and where we stand as a club. We probably knew it already but I thought it was interesting to see it in black-and-white as it puts things in perspective.

I also made the suggestion that establishing a clear direction as a club and communicating it effectively could be beneficial to making progress on the pitch and building bridges with disaffected fans off it in what could prove to be a few difficult years ahead.

Edited April 11, 2022 by whoklldredrobin

[Wanderingred]

7 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

If I hadn’t had a paper round I’d have been a professional footballer.

If Juliette Binoche had hung around St. George in the late 1970s I’m sure we would be together now..

None of these 3 things are the case.

Nice to see that you have a strong grasp of the second and third conditionals.

[SecretSam]

The fact is that there were points deductions, and you only have to look at the points totals of teams around us to see the impact - half a dozen sides on less than 50 points, clear indication (to me) that everyone has set the bar lower - and that also, like the Prem, there's a clear gap between the good and bad teams in the league.

[The Journalist]

3 minutes ago, whoklldredrobin said:

Everyone is wilfully missing the point here – OF COURSE it is not our actual league position, of course we don't have to worry about relegation, of course it is hypothetical hahahaha... but it does show where we actually are in terms of form, and where we stand as a club. We probably knew it already but I thought it was useful to see it in black-and-white.

 

Not sure anyone's missed the point. Teams have been deducted points because they signed players they couldn't afford, spent beyond their means and tried to gain - and as Wycombe would argue did gain - a competitive advantage.

In essence, without a points deduction the league table also wouldn't reflect where we actually are because two clubs cheated in an attempt to get in front of us.

The other thing to add - as others have already pointed out - is that we wouldn't necessarily have drifted along in the manner we have done for weeks because we'd have been under a lot more pressure.

And results and performances do back that point of view up to an extent - we've not been this shit all season, it's just a classic case of the hard work being done and the players being too spineless and unprofessional to maintain standards with nothing to play for.

Just my two cents, anyway.

[Curr Avon]

20 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

As my uncle used to say - “if the horse had stopped for a shit it wouldn’t have win the race”!

Dammit. I should have known that when I drew Stops To Take A Shit in the Grand National sweepstake its was doomed to plop on Becher's Brook.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Curr Avon

[Robbored]

18 minutes ago, whoklldredrobin said:

Everyone is wilfully missing the point here – OF COURSE it is not our actual league position, of course we don't have to worry about relegation, of course it is hypothetical hahahaha... but it does show where we actually are in terms of form, and where we stand as a club. We probably knew it already but I thought it was interesting to see it in black-and-white as it puts things in perspective.

I also made the suggestion that establishing a clear direction as a club and communicating it effectively could be beneficial to making progress on the pitch and building bridges with disaffected fans off it in what could prove to be a few difficult years ahead.

Most of us knew what you were getting at Whokilledthecrobin but we’re all very pissed off already without you making an unnecessary point………….

[BigTone]

42 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Of course it’s not - our  actual league position is 19th on 45 points. Just look at the Championship table………..

Exactly !! We are where we are, simple as

[Guest whoklldredrobin]

1 minute ago, Robbored said:

Most of us knew what you were getting at Whokilledthecrobin but we’re all very pissed off already without you making an unnecessary point………….

Thanks...I leave you all to make your unnecessary points amongst yourselves.

Cheers.

[Bristol Oil Services]

39 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

 

If Juliette Binoche had hung around St. George in the late 1970s I’m sure we would be together now..

 

You would still have gone to Halifax midweek in 82/3, and I don’t think she would've stood for/comprendez-vous'd that. And she's more chien than chat so no chance ....

[GrahamC]

1 minute ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

You would still have gone to Halifax midweek in 82/3, and I don’t think she would've stood for/comprendez-vous'd that. And she's more chien than chat so no chance ....

I have the feeling not only that she could have persuaded me otherwise but also that I wouldn’t have wasted so much of my life on this..

In hindsight I’m not sure I understand that decision myself, let alone whatever Ms. Binoche thinks.

Forget points deductions, this is the real potential tragedy right here.

You wouldn’t let it lie re the cats & dogs thing, would you? 

[italian dave]

58 minutes ago, Wanderingred said:

IF there were no points deductions, and City were indeed in the position shown in the original post, would you be confident of avoiding the drop? It would certainly be exciting… the Hull game would be massive!

As would Derby the week before. 

[steveybadger]

Yes, but also if Derby hadn’t cheated we’d have beaten them 3 or so years ago when they had Mount and Tomori,  to get into the play offs then the Prem. We’d have then been relegated but would’ve joined the parachute payments yo yo club, bouncing between the C’ship and Prem for eternity.

Basically a red shirted Norwich.

[SecretSam]

1 minute ago, steveybadger said:

Basically a red shirted Norwich.

With fewer fingers per hand.

[Bristol Oil Services]

31 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

I have the feeling not only that she could have persuaded me otherwise but also that I wouldn’t have wasted so much of my life on this..

In hindsight I’m not sure I understand that decision myself, let alone whatever Ms. Binoche thinks.

Forget points deductions, this is the real potential tragedy right here.

You wouldn’t let it lie re the cats & dogs thing, would you? 

Non. Je ne forget rien