Might Pearson walk?

[Offside]

7 hours ago, spudski said:

We've turned into friggin Reading FC. That's who we remind me of...both on and off field. 

I always remember saying when we went up...that my biggest fear was becoming slap bang average in this league. Bobbing between 8th and 19th...basically boring. 

As soon as I saw a Ferrari in the players car park I knew we would become that.

Over paid and under achieving players in a comfortable environment. Found their level and happy to plod.

It was always going to happen as soon as we signed Kalas, DaSilva and Palmer. It wasn't/isn't rocket science.

 

The terrible thing is that we are worse than bang average. We have been awful so many times over the last couple of seasons and our decline from play-off hopefuls to the all too familiar performance we saw on Saturday, with the financial mess we are in, is frightening. 

[Fuber]

On 09/04/2022 at 22:34, italian dave said:

My feeling is that we are at a crossroads right now. 

I think SL (or whoever) may have made the wrong appointment, and that’s in no way being critical of NP.  We all know that there the styles of play, personalities, strategic approaches that managers adopt at a club can vary enormously. The risk is that when you change managers you end up having to change everything about the club - and that takes time.
SL did that in the past and said  he’d recognised that was a mistake and that he wouldn’t do it again. But he then didn’t seem to be able to think of an option beyond the internal appointment (Holden) to achieve it. And when that failed he reverted to type and just went for a change. He didn’t do what clubs like Brentford and Swansea have done and gone for an external appointment but one who’d absolutely buy into the existing strategy. 

NP talks about the culture and the softness and the weak approach of recent years, but it’s a culture and an approach that saw us finish in the top half of the table three years running. It’s not fundamentally flawed, it’s just an approach, a culture, that’s diametrically opposed to NPs view of the game.

You’re right that he needs time to ‘fix it’, in the sense that fix means ingrain the completely different approach a culture that he sees as the right one. That’s going to involve a complete change of personnel, including potentially a complete overhaul of the academy approach too. 

My worry is that he just won’t get that time. I really can’t see (and NP said as much in the week) that we’re going to be able to afford to change much in the summer. And if we start next season with NP in charge of what’s essentially the same squad as we have now then we will be heading for relegation. I don’t think SL will countenance relegation as part of the long term plan to overhaul the club. So mid next season we risk being back in the search for another new manager and no real sense of direction in the club. 

I’m torn now between what you say, give him the time to do what he has to do (and that’s my instinctive approach every time - including like you with LJ) and a feeling that now is the time to cut and run. I’ve no idea who, or who’d come mind you! 

That was in no way sustainable, flawed, and has us in the current mess.

For every position gained on the table, we essentially smacked £4m on wage spending. If it had carried on we'd currently be in Reading's current situation.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Fuber

[italian dave]

1 hour ago, Fuber said:

That was in no way sustainable, flawed, and has us in the current mess.

For every position gained on the table, we essentially smacked £4m on wage spending. If it had carried on we'd currently be in Reading's current situation.

Financially it would, yes. But that’s because we implemented it badly. Do it right and you end up in Brentford’s situation. 

Don’t get me wrong, I think we messed it up big time (not helped by covid of course) and I agreed with the comments NP made a few weeks ago that said as much. 

But I didn’t take NPs comments after the game on Saturday to be talking about the financial strategy. I thought that was more about our approach on the pitch, and that’s what I was really referring to.

Players who don’t play the game the way he wants to play it. Who aren’t adaptable. A lack of leadership. A lack of resilience. Soft. Whatever you want to call it. Essentially, that he doesn’t have the players he wants with the personalities he wants. Which is the position most managers are in, in most cases, for most of their tenure. And all I’m saying is that we should maybe have looked to appoint someone a year ago (ideally two years ago) who was going to be happy with the style of play and the personality that was the culture of the club. Not blaming NP for that.

And he may be right - arguable that culture and that group of personalities won’t get you beyond a 7th place. But if you’re going to criticise a club and it’s past culture, and that achieved top half of the table, then it’s probably best not to be too critical from the position of two consecutive 19th finishes (I’m assuming one, I know, but it’s a fair assumption I think). 

[italian dave]

23 hours ago, DaveInSA said:

I do love a good manager bashing thread.

Who actually, in their right mind would come to BCFC.

We’re such a tin pot operation. Lands down is loaded, but has no idea how to run a football club and won’t admit it.

All that money, all those years. All pissed down the drain.

Ha ha. Very true. But the reason they’d come is that they’ve got few better options elsewhere. Everything you’ve said, managers getting bashed, no idea how to run a business, money pissed down the drain - that’s 80% of league clubs isn’t it? 

[Red-Robbo]

On 09/04/2022 at 22:49, Davefevs said:

Was meant to be sustainable wasnt it?  That was the strap-line!

 

That always made me laugh. SL can't have studied the economics of clubs in the English Football League much before he came out with that doozy. 

[Bat Fastard]

14 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

That always made me laugh. SL can't have studied the economics of clubs in the English Football League much before he came out with that doozy. 

If you get on your knees and pray, you might be able to come up with such a mission statement.

[marmite]

I don't think Nige will walk away. I think he made the mistake of judging the book by its cover. (As did Coppell imo). Britain's 7th? largest city with a billionaire owner and a catchment area that most other teams would envy. It's surely there for the taking. What could possibly go wrong? Trouble is, something or someone is lurking beneath the  surface.  If we can eradicate that problem, then who knows?  Problem is finding and fixing the flaw, whatever it is.

[Gert Mare]

He knew it was bad when he accepted the position. As to just how bad a mess we are in might have been unknown to him at the time? I’ve never known a manager have his hands tied this much since possibly Terry Cooper?

If he was fed up and walked I wouldn’t blame him. He’s working with a poor squad who are mentally soft and he can’t change it anymore than he has tried to do with what he has and yet fans still berate him. He can lead the horse to water but he can’t make it drink.

I’m just grateful that we are likely to get another season in the Championship.

[SecretSam]

3 hours ago, italian dave said:

Financially it would, yes. But that’s because we implemented it badly. Do it right and you end up in Brentford’s situation. 

I don't think Brentford are a realistic benchmark. Very few clubs have done what they have; for every Brentford, there's far more Stokes, Sunderlands, Portsmouths, who have been at the top table, got their parachute payments and wasted them. 

[italian dave]

18 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

I don't think Brentford are a realistic benchmark. Very few clubs have done what they have; for every Brentford, there's far more Stokes, Sunderlands, Portsmouths, who have been at the top table, got their parachute payments and wasted them. 

But they demonstrate that the model isn’t fundamentally flawed, that’s all I’m saying. Brentford don’t prove that it will always work, any more than Reading prove it can never work. 

I’m not sure whether the Stokes, Sunderland’s or Portsmouths got there using that model or just spending silly money. And I agree they’ve wasted their parachute payments but again for every Stoke there’s a Burnley and for every Sunderland there’s a West Brom. 

[Guest]

Suppose R Gould is the link between SL and NP  but surely SL will know whats been said re this summers window and how peed off NP is or not.

Will have to be pretty bad for NP to walk away will lose a decent salary for a start, but theres only so long you can bang your head against a brick wall.

Certainly wont be happy if we dont get some sort of a decent squad/team together before xmas.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, italian dave said:

But they demonstrate that the model isn’t fundamentally flawed, that’s all I’m saying. Brentford don’t prove that it will always work, any more than Reading prove it can never work. 

I’m not sure whether the Stokes, Sunderland’s or Portsmouths got there using that model or just spending silly money. And I agree they’ve wasted their parachute payments but again for every Stoke there’s a Burnley and for every Sunderland there’s a West Brom. 

The model Brentford planned and executed was vastly different to ours.

Much myth about recruitment data, when in fact they had 100s of scouts on the ground in strategic areas like Denmark (obvious with the Ankersen connections), but French Ligue 2…and importantly able to move quickly as things like Brexit came into play, e.g. disbanding scouting in French Ligue 2 because they don’t pass work permits.

Mark Ashton pretty much disbanded scouting down to 3 people.

And they got rid of Academy, and went with a B Team model, because of the draw of London kids to PL clubs, even if Brentford picked them up at 8/9.

So it’s alright saying SL aspired to be like Brentford, but he paid lip service to how they did it…he just looked at the end result…player trading.  And boy, was that right up Ashton’s street!

Piss-poor really!

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, Gert Mare said:

He knew it was bad when he accepted the position. As to just how bad a mess we are in might have been unknown to him at the time? I

He said himself that he found things to be even worse than he expected. Which would doubtless have put Steve's nose out of joint given that he told us to the end what a great job Ashton did.

Anybody who tells Steve some home truths is taking a risk but Nigel is not going to grovel like his predecessors.

So it may be a case of will he jump before he's pushed?

[AppyDAZE]

On 10/04/2022 at 10:19, Sheltons Army said:

Pah....

All you do is Spread sheets 

 

 

 

 

 

Its been said , I tell ya .... numerous times , on many threads 

......albeit by a very sad , jealous , melt 

Goes on a lot of picnics, does Dave.

[chinapig]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The model Brentford planned and executed was vastly different to ours.

Much myth about recruitment data, when in fact they had 100s of scouts on the ground in strategic areas like Denmark (obvious with the Ankersen connections), but French Ligue 2…and importantly able to move quickly as things like Brexit came into play, e.g. disbanding scouting in French Ligue 2 because they don’t pass work permits.

Mark Ashton pretty much disbanded scouting down to 3 people.

And they got rid of Academy, and went with a B Team model, because of the draw of London kids to PL clubs, even if Brentford picked them up at 8/9.

So it’s alright saying SL aspired to be like Brentford, but he paid lip service to how they did it…he just looked at the end result…player trading.  And boy, was that right up Ashton’s street!

Piss-poor really!

Actually it's been reported in the past that Steve didn't like Brentford's model because - wait for it .... they paid wages that were too high.

I agree you can overstate the importance of data in Brentford's model but it is an important factor and they do it much better than us.

But as you say they have extensive scouting whereas we seem to regard scouts as optional.

[GrahamC]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The model Brentford planned and executed was vastly different to ours.

Much myth about recruitment data, when in fact they had 100s of scouts on the ground in strategic areas like Denmark (obvious with the Ankersen connections), but French Ligue 2…and importantly able to move quickly as things like Brexit came into play, e.g. disbanding scouting in French Ligue 2 because they don’t pass work permits.

Mark Ashton pretty much disbanded scouting down to 3 people.

And they got rid of Academy, and went with a B Team model, because of the draw of London kids to PL clubs, even if Brentford picked them up at 8/9.

So it’s alright saying SL aspired to be like Brentford, but he paid lip service to how they did it…he just looked at the end result…player trading.  And boy, was that right up Ashton’s street!

Piss-poor really!

Every day of the week.

I wish I had a pound for every time someone suggested “the Brentford model” without having the first idea what it even is.

Scrap the Academy, own a team in Denmark, spend more money on predictive analytics than most of the Prem (before they were in it).

Fine, if you think we would operate it anywhere near as efficiently (we wouldn’t), plus our geographical location should give us an advantage re youngsters than Brentford’s never will.

If we think we could have done all this without the sales of Kelly, Reid & Bryan because we would implement this template perfectly that’s fine, but I somehow have my doubts.

[cidered abroad]

9 minutes ago, chinapig said:

He said himself that he found things to be even worse than he expected. Which would doubtless have put Steve's nose out of joint given that he told us to the end what a great job Ashton did.

Anybody who tells Steve some home truths is taking a risk but Nigel is not going to grovel like his predecessors.

So it may be a case of will he jump before he's pushed?

I certainly hope that he stays. Unless a complete disaster with the remaining games sends us down, he, the players have achieved the target of staying in the Championship for 2022-23.

The crux of the problem now is how successful we are in recruitment and moving our unwanted on during the summer.

Selling one of the promising young ones will put us as ok with FFP. But releasing those being paid more than a £Million a year is much more important and constructive.

Unfortunately, it will probably be two young guns leaving and the overpaid dross remaining because nobody will want them!

[Wiltshire robin]

10 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Every day of the week.

I wish I had a pound for every time someone suggested “the Brentford model” without having the first idea what it even is.

Scrap the Academy, own a team in Denmark, spend more money on predictive analytics than most of the Prem (before they were in it).

Fine, if you think we would operate it anywhere near as efficiently (we wouldn’t), plus our geographical location should give us an advantage re youngsters than Brentford’s never will.

If we think we could have done all this without the sales of Kelly, Reid & Bryan because we would implement this template perfectly that’s fine, but I somehow have my doubts.

I don’t think geographical location matters when it comes to our academy. Lots of Bristol kids and other locals end up going to Chelsea and Southampton as they both are heavily invested in scouting the West Country , both clubs have a private school they send academy kids to in the bath area so they can still live local .

[GrahamC]

31 minutes ago, Wiltshire robin said:

I don’t think geographical location matters when it comes to our academy. Lots of Bristol kids and other locals end up going to Chelsea and Southampton as they both are heavily invested in scouting the West Country , both clubs have a private school they send academy kids to in the bath area so they can still live local .

I really meant Brentford knew they were fishing in an overcrowded pool in West London, Chelsea, QPR & Fulham are all only a couple of miles away.

Our situation is very different, Plymouth are the only other serious club in the South West & they are nearly 120 miles away.

In theory all of the old county of Avon, Gloucestershire & Somerset should be ours.

[TV Tom]

2 hours ago, Gert Mare said:

He knew it was bad when he accepted the position. As to just how bad a mess we are in might have been unknown to him at the time? I’ve never known a manager have his hands tied this much since possibly Terry Cooper?

If he was fed up and walked I wouldn’t blame him. He’s working with a poor squad who are mentally soft and he can’t change it anymore than he has tried to do with what he has and yet fans still berate him. He can lead the horse to water but he can’t make it drink.

I’m just grateful that we are likely to get another season in the Championship.

We have a far better squad than our league position and performances are showing, just maybe it’s a case that Pearson just can’t the best out of them?

[RedM]

On 09/04/2022 at 22:06, Mr Chappers said:

I’m totally indifferent to Pearson and don’t care whether he stays or goes. Low expectations for next season, just hope that a few younger players develop well, as we have, potentially, a decent squad in about 2/3 years.

I would say that Pearson is indifferent towards the club and doesn’t care if he stays or goes either! It seems like we can’t afford to sack him, even if we wanted to. If we can’t afford to sack him them we can’t afford to employ someone else either.

Personally I would like to see our Manager show a little bit of emotional attachment to the club. But there is nothing. It’s just a job

We are stuck and crossing our fingers, just as he is. Only he is in a better position than Lansdown as like someone has mentioned it’s not in his (financial) interest to walk. Nobody is going to come in for him either.

However, I would be very, very surprised if he remains here to the end of his contract if he goes to the press l8ke he has too many times.

[Wiltshire robin]

15 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

I really meant Brentford knew they were fishing in an overcrowded pool in West London, Chelsea, QPR & Fulham are all only a couple of miles away.

Our situation is very different, Plymouth are the only other serious club in the South West & they are nearly 120 miles away.

In theory all of the old county of Avon, Gloucestershire & Somerset should be ours.

I agree with you in theory it should be but with prem clubs set up in the Bristol area and Gloucester and even here in Wiltshire it’s still hard to compete

[italian dave]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

The model Brentford planned and executed was vastly different to ours.

Much myth about recruitment data, when in fact they had 100s of scouts on the ground in strategic areas like Denmark (obvious with the Ankersen connections), but French Ligue 2…and importantly able to move quickly as things like Brexit came into play, e.g. disbanding scouting in French Ligue 2 because they don’t pass work permits.

Mark Ashton pretty much disbanded scouting down to 3 people.

And they got rid of Academy, and went with a B Team model, because of the draw of London kids to PL clubs, even if Brentford picked them up at 8/9.

So it’s alright saying SL aspired to be like Brentford, but he paid lip service to how they did it…he just looked at the end result…player trading.  And boy, was that right up Ashton’s street!

Piss-poor really!

Indeed, which is kind of what I’m trying to say, but not very well!

As I see it, the starting point for Brentford (and many others) is that you buy young, unknown, lower league, fringe prem etc etc  players cheaply (because they’re young, unknown etc), make them better, and sell enough of them at the right time to make a healthy surplus and keep the virtuous circle turning. 

As opposed to other strategies such as

- reliance on a great academy to do something similar

- just splurge silly money on the very best players in the league (which is what we could afford to do when we were in L1, and what Bournemouth got away with in the Championship)

- bring in experienced players nearing the end of their careers and get the best out of their last few years (Warnock does that well)

And if you’re going to adopt that first strategy then there are various models and approaches for doing it. Brentford’s model worked, ours didn’t. Because, as you say, we didn’t do it that way. As you said the other day, we focussed on the money not the ball!

So all I’m trying to say is that we set out with a strategy of buy cheap sell high but absolutely our model was not Brentford’s. It wasn’t Reading’s either - although it was barely more successful! But the fact that ours and Readings failed doesn’t invalidate the ‘buy cheap sell high strategy as a principle because it can work, with the right model to deliver it.  

[Numero Uno]

3 hours ago, Wiltshire robin said:

I agree with you in theory it should be but with prem clubs set up in the Bristol area and Gloucester and even here in Wiltshire it’s still hard to compete

More Bristol kids are playing for us than Chelsea or Southampton or than even get released by Chelsea and Southampton and make it elsewhere. Surely that means we have actually picked the best kids?

How many Bristol lads of the age of Scott, Bell, Conway and Benarous are making it at a higher level than us?

[redsquirrel]

if things get a lot worse,i hope he would stick two fingers up and walk. i was surprised he didnt earlier in the season with his health issues, i cant for one minute believe he needs the money.  i also think we need to do everything possible to keep him as he is fully aware of how proper football clubs are run and capable of delivering if the full staff are towing the line.

something isnt right behind the scenes, i sometimes wonder if we are selling the points

[Numero Uno]

3 hours ago, harrys said:

We have a far better squad than our league position and performances are showing, just maybe it’s a case that Pearson just can’t the best out of them?

We don’t, they can’t even pass the ******* ball. That’s not tactical, it’s lack of technical ability.

[redsquirrel]

8 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

We don’t, they can’t even pass the ******* ball. That’s not tactical, it’s lack of technical ability.

or they cant be arsed to think about what they are doing?

[Major Isewater]

10 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

We don’t, they can’t even pass the ******* ball. That’s not tactical, it’s lack of technical ability.

You’re wrong it’s personality which means they can’t pass the ball , do keep up number one. 

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, Major Isewater said:

You’re wrong it’s personality which means they can’t pass the ball , do keep up number one. 

I’ll stick with my assessment!!!!

[Numero Uno]

3 minutes ago, redsquirrel said:

or they cant be arsed to think about what they are doing?

Whatever it is it’s definitely not tactical. Zak Vyner overhit one pass on Saturday by THIRTY yards

[TV Tom]

12 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Whatever it is it’s definitely not tactical. Zak Vyner overhit one pass on Saturday by THIRTY yards

Pack used to do that ten times a game 

[Merrick's Marvels]

4 hours ago, RedM said:

However, I would be very, very surprised if he remains here to the end of his contract if he goes to the press l8ke he has too many times.

What on earth do you mean "goes to the press"???

He's asked a question and gives an answer, often a direct answer. No giggling, no bullshit, no ego, no attempt to blow smoke up the arse of "the Lansdown family". Just unvarnished honesty, as he sees it. And yes, his attitude is that you and I can take it or leave it. So what? 

Running to the press and telling tales? Nothing to do with it. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Merrick's Marvels

[Wiltshire robin]

56 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

More Bristol kids are playing for us than Chelsea or Southampton or than even get released by Chelsea and Southampton and make it elsewhere. Surely that means we have actually picked the best kids?

How many Bristol lads of the age of Scott, Bell, Conway and Benarous are making it at a higher level than us?

Can’t argue with that . Done well to get those you’ve mentioned 

[RedM]

8 hours ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

What on earth do you mean "goes to the press"???

He's asked a question and gives an answer, often a direct answer. No giggling, no bullshit, no ego, no attempt to blow smoke up the arse of "the Lansdown family". Just unvarnished honesty, as he sees it. And yes, his attitude is that you and I can take it or leave it. So what? 

Running to the press and telling tales? Nothing to do with it. 

 Ok I may not have worded it great, I never wrote that he ran to the press, YOU added that in your own head. 

But my point that went over that same head was he is still speaking to the press, as it’s part of his job. I doubt he has been given given the ‘Firms’ blessing to make jabs at them. He isn’t stupid and has taken the opportunity to do so, thinly disguised as post/pre match press interviews. As I said, I doubt if this has gone unnoticed and certainly not been well received.

Clear enough?

[Waconda]

9 hours ago, redsquirrel said:

if things get a lot worse,i hope he would stick two fingers up and walk. i was surprised he didnt earlier in the season with his health issues, i cant for one minute believe he needs the money.  i also think we need to do everything possible to keep him as he is fully aware of how proper football clubs are run and capable of delivering if the full staff are towing the line.

something isnt right behind the scenes, i sometimes wonder if we are selling the points

Remember the case of the mysterious Press Conference that never was ?

[Waconda]

9 hours ago, Wiltshire robin said:

Can’t argue with that . Done well to get those you’ve mentioned 

We also take lots of kids from Cardiff and Swansea (our academy is better than theirs).

The Academy certainly isn't the problem here nor was the tens of millions we made in profit on transfers (fees only) during the LJ years. It was the way it was reinvested on cheaper versions of players that didn't work out and high salaries to mediocre ex prem players.

[SecretSam]

15 hours ago, cidered abroad said:

The two young guns leaving and the overpaid dross remaining because nobody will want them!

Perhaps we should try and use the overpaid dross? If you're in a hole, then sometimes you have to use what's available, not moan about what you can't have?

[TV Tom]

11 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

We don’t, they can’t even pass the ******* ball. That’s not tactical, it’s lack of technical ability.

Well do you not think it just MIGHT be the case that Pearson is just not capable of getting the best out of them

[italian dave]

11 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

Whatever it is it’s definitely not tactical. Zak Vyner overhit one pass on Saturday by THIRTY yards

There’s a fairly fine line between overhitting a pass by thirty yards and hoofing the ball forward hopefully - something we were doing routinely on Saturday. 

[tin]

19 minutes ago, harrys said:

Well do you not think it just MIGHT be the case that Pearson is just not capable of getting the best out of them

Do you not think professional footballers should take some responsibility and pride for their own performances, if not to give 100% for the shirt then to put themselves in the shop window to move up the football pyramid? Or perhaps NP is getting the best of out of them, but they’re either shit, over the hill, or just starting their careers? 

It’s never as simple as simply saying the manager is responsible, especially when he walked into a shit storm. 

[Eddie Hitler]

Nigel Pearson is a coach and should have been slotted into the same structure as previously so that he just does the coaching and the player recruitment and contract negotiation are dealt with by an experienced DoF.

I am no fan of Mark Ashton but, massive losses aside, I think it likely that five years of Ashton / Pearson instead of Ashton / LJ would have seen us into the Premiership through having a highly experienced coach instead of a rookie.

I don't know why we were given so much information about the desired structure / five pillars only to dump the majority of the work upon one man who is then reduced to having to bring in the players he already knows even if they're not the best out there.

Nigel may well walk but if he is and then simply replaced with another name manager without the necessary support them they will also underachieve and end up walking.

I remain baffled that the club went to all the effort of developing what was to my mind a good structure, DoF and coach, and a good strategy in the five pillars only to then go: "Nah", leave them all out for the bin men, and resort to the old "hit and hope" strategy which relies upon a manager being prepared to work himself into the ground.

IIRC Terry Cooper, or his wife, even used to wash the kit.

Is that the way that this multimillion pound club is really heading? As it looks that way.

[Sir Geoff]

1 hour ago, italian dave said:

There’s a fairly fine line between overhitting a pass by thirty yards and hoofing the ball forward hopefully - something we were doing routinely on Saturday. 

Both of which would be more akin to Downs league football than 2nd tier professional football.

[Sir Geoff]

1 hour ago, harrys said:

Well do you not think it just MIGHT be the case that Pearson is just not capable of getting the best out of them

It's not Pearsons job to teach professional footballers how to pass a football to a team mate. If they can't do the basics now as professional highly paid footballers then they are in the wrong job.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

7 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

Nigel Pearson is a coach and should have been slotted into the same structure as previously so that he just does the coaching and the player recruitment and contract negotiation are dealt with by an experienced DoF.

I am no fan of Mark Ashton but, massive losses aside, I think it likely that five years of Ashton / Pearson instead of Ashton / LJ would have seen us into the Premiership through having a highly experienced coach instead of a rookie.

I don't know why we were given so much information about the desired structure / five pillars only to dump the majority of the work upon one man who is then reduced to having to bring in the players he already knows even if they're not the best out there.

Nigel may well walk but if he is and then simply replaced with another name manager without the necessary support them they will also underachieve and end up walking.

I remain baffled that the club went to all the effort of developing what was to my mind a good structure, DoF and coach, and a good strategy in the five pillars only to then go: "Nah", leave them all out for the bin men, and resort to the old "hit and hope" strategy which relies upon a manager being prepared to work himself into the ground.

IIRC Terry Cooper, or his wife, even used to wash the kit.

Is that the way that this multimillion pound club is really heading? As it looks that way.

Is he a coach though?  Isn’t that part of the problem, that he needs a better coach than we’ve got?

[italian dave]

33 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Both of which would be more akin to Downs league football than 2nd tier professional football.

Funnily enough, the comment I made to my mate during the game on Saturday was along the lines of 'never mind a poor advert for Championship football, this would be a poor advert for Downs league football'!

[italian dave]

38 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

Nigel Pearson is a coach and should have been slotted into the same structure as previously so that he just does the coaching and the player recruitment and contract negotiation are dealt with by an experienced DoF.

I am no fan of Mark Ashton but, massive losses aside, I think it likely that five years of Ashton / Pearson instead of Ashton / LJ would have seen us into the Premiership through having a highly experienced coach instead of a rookie.

I don't know why we were given so much information about the desired structure / five pillars only to dump the majority of the work upon one man who is then reduced to having to bring in the players he already knows even if they're not the best out there.

Nigel may well walk but if he is and then simply replaced with another name manager without the necessary support them they will also underachieve and end up walking.

I remain baffled that the club went to all the effort of developing what was to my mind a good structure, DoF and coach, and a good strategy in the five pillars only to then go: "Nah", leave them all out for the bin men, and resort to the old "hit and hope" strategy which relies upon a manager being prepared to work himself into the ground.

IIRC Terry Cooper, or his wife, even used to wash the kit.

Is that the way that this multimillion pound club is really heading? As it looks that way.

Yes, good points. I'm not sure Ashton and Pearson would have been able to work together for 5 years mind; it would have required Ashton to have a different relationship and role to the one he seemed to have with LJ. But had that relationship come together then you may well be right. I also think, for what its worth, that if LJ had had a proper DoF - not a finance director - then we'd have at least made the play offs. 

[Eddie Hitler]

36 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Is he a coach though?  Isn’t that part of the problem, that he needs a better coach than we’ve got?

 

I thought that his coaching record was decent but that people tend to conflate coaching and management records as though they are interchangeable.

I certainly don't know enough about it to argue the point though.

[Eddie Hitler]

7 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Yes, good points. I'm not sure Ashton and Pearson would have been able to work together for 5 years mind; it would have required Ashton to have a different relationship and role to the one he seemed to have with LJ. But had that relationship come together then you may well be right. I also think, for what its worth, that if LJ had had a proper DoF - not a finance director - then we'd have at least made the play offs. 

 

Agreed.

The dream pairing would have been five years of Cotts plus a DoF; not Ashton though.

I don't have a solution now other than to do this; though FFP effectively precludes that for at least another year.

 

 

 

 

[italian dave]

2 hours ago, tin said:

Do you not think professional footballers should take some responsibility and pride for their own performances, if not to give 100% for the shirt then to put themselves in the shop window to move up the football pyramid? Or perhaps NP is getting the best of out of them, but they’re either shit, over the hill, or just starting their careers? 

It’s never as simple as simply saying the manager is responsible, especially when he walked into a shit storm. 

You'd have thought so, wouldn't you? Although we all know that however committed you want to be at work, the leadership you work under has a big bearing.

I think what gets me is where this has gone wrong since 2020 - when we finished top half for the third season running.

Of Saturday's starting XI, four were a big part of the 2020 side (Bentley, Dasilva, Wells, Weimann) and a fifth (Kalas) I'm pretty sure would have been there in place of Cundy if fit.  And then Massenngo, Vyner and Semenyo (all involved in 2020) were on the bench. So nearly half the side.

Of the other half, 3 were NP signings (Klose, Atkinson, James) and although Martin wasn't signed by NP he's very evidently a player NP rates. Then you had Williams, Scott and Cundy (see above) plus the other youngsters on the bench.

So, individually you've got almost all players who've either got the ability and personality to be part of a relatively successful side, or who've been brought in by NP - you'd hope with the right ability and personality in mind.

You might argue that the third category are the youngsters and that NP has had to include them, maybe earlier than he'd have liked, because of financial conmtratints. He could be saying that - and I think most people would probably have some sympathy with that view. But that's not what he attributes the problem to - he keeps talking about it being personality, attitude, ability.

So its hard to see where, individually, he's pointing the finger when he talks about personality and attitude. And if he's meaning collective attitude and commitment then that surely is down to the managers and coaches as much as individual players.

My hope in all this is that what's behind it is transition - that we're transitioning from one era to another, from one playing style to another, from one form of leadership to another, from one set of expectations to another. But we haven't half made it difficult for ourselves! But the worry is that we start poorly next season (which I can certainly see happening), lose our nerve, and end up being half way through one transition and about to embark on another.

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Of Saturday's starting XI, four were a big part of the 2020 side (Bentley, Dasilva, Wells, Weimann) and a fifth (Kalas) I'm pretty sure would have been there in place of Cundy if fit.  And then Massenngo, Vyner and Semenyo (all involved in 2020) were on the bench. So nearly half the side.

I guess you can flip this on it’s head and say who wasn’t in the side on Saturday:

(regardless of my opinions on each player here’s a few)

Hunt / Pereira

Baker / Benkovic

Brownhill (the single biggest loss imho - a true premier league player) / Smith (second half of the season)

Eliasson / Paterson

Diedhiou

….and that side finished 12th.

After that season, there’s been little / no squad investment, but until the summer when Pearson cleared £12m of cost, the cost of the squad remained.

Back then it was a big squad which allowed Lee to tinker.

I think the decline had begun.  Covid sped it up / exposed it.

It’s far from ideal.  I just hope we can manufacture an improvement to the squad over the summer window by whatever means.  I’m resigning myself to losing players I don’t want to leave…the young ones.  Keeping them takes balls because it might mean sacrificing the likes of Kalas or Bentley, unless you can tie them down for another few years.  The re-contracting of players is so important to cost control, in a deflated transfer market.  You really want players who have longevity, i.e. players who grow with you, that you re-contract (it’s financially efficient too), or sell for big fees…not ones you hold onto because no other bugger wants them, certainly not at their wage level, e.g. Palmer.  We most certainly can’t let Kalas and Bentley walk for free next summer.

We need to hold our nerve and see how the summer pans out.

 

[cidered abroad]

1 hour ago, Eddie Hitler said:

Nigel Pearson is a coach and should have been slotted into the same structure as previously so that he just does the coaching and the player recruitment and contract negotiation are dealt with by an experienced DoF.

I am no fan of Mark Ashton but, massive losses aside, I think it likely that five years of Ashton / Pearson instead of Ashton / LJ would have seen us into the Premiership through having a highly experienced coach instead of a rookie.

I don't know why we were given so much information about the desired structure / five pillars only to dump the majority of the work upon one man who is then reduced to having to bring in the players he already knows even if they're not the best out there.

Nigel may well walk but if he is and then simply replaced with another name manager without the necessary support them they will also underachieve and end up walking.

I remain baffled that the club went to all the effort of developing what was to my mind a good structure, DoF and coach, and a good strategy in the five pillars only to then go: "Nah", leave them all out for the bin men, and resort to the old "hit and hope" strategy which relies upon a manager being prepared to work himself into the ground.

IIRC Terry Cooper, or his wife, even used to wash the kit.

Is that the way that this multimillion pound club is really heading? As it looks that way.

Are you really thinking that MA was acting as Director of Football?

IMO, he was looking after number one with total disregard to SL, and the future of the Football Club. Continually bringing in players who were not wanted, overpaid and in many cases totally inadequate at top Championship level.

We've had some poor non football managerial staff in the past but this clown (MA) is top of the league for inadequacy and self indulgence.

[Eddie Hitler]

1 hour ago, cidered abroad said:

Are you really thinking that MA was acting as Director of Football?

IMO, he was looking after number one with total disregard to SL, and the future of the Football Club. Continually bringing in players who were not wanted, overpaid and in many cases totally inadequate at top Championship level.

We've had some poor non football managerial staff in the past but this clown (MA) is top of the league for inadequacy and self indulgence.

 

I'm not a fan of MA and his spending (other people's) money like water is why we are currently hamstrung.

There are however parts of the role that he did fulfill well, being:

Bring in (some) high quality players 

Relieve the coach of the responsibility for recruitment and contract negotiation

Obtain top dollar on sales; something we have a very poor history of achieving.

 

Those positive attributes, combined with someone of Cotts' or Pearson's experience would have been sufficient IMHO to bring us promotion.

Absolutely he wasted loads of money on bang average players but what he did manage to do would have been enough IMHO.

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

I'm not a fan of MA and his spending (other people's) money like water is why we are currently hamstrung.

There are however parts of the role that he did fulfill well, being:

Bring in (some) high quality players 

Relieve the coach of the responsibility for recruitment and contract negotiation

Obtain top dollar on sales; something we have a very poor history of achieving.

 

Those positive attributes, combined with someone of Cotts' or Pearson's experience would have been sufficient IMHO to bring us promotion.

Absolutely he wasted loads of money on bang average players but what he did manage to do would have been enough IMHO.

Why would you want a non-football expert, who nevertheless sacked successive chief scouts and referred to "my player database" and "my recruitment team" in charge of recruitment (other than the financial element) though?

I keep coming back to the club's own statement that he had control of all day to day football activities (my emphasis) , a job he was not qualified for.

Gould made it clear he is not involved in football matters in contrast. Though we still don't plan to appoint a head of recruitment.

[Eddie Hitler]

1 hour ago, chinapig said:

Why would you want a non-football expert, who nevertheless sacked successive chief scouts and referred to "my player database" and "my recruitment team" in charge of recruitment (other than the financial element) though?

I keep coming back to the club's own statement that he had control of all day to day football activities (my emphasis) , a job he was not qualified for.

Gould made it clear he is not involved in football matters in contrast. Though we still don't plan to appoint a head of recruitment.

 

I wouldn't.

I think people are mistaking my recognition that Mark Ashton wasn't a total cretin and had some positive qualities, which with enough money and a decent coach would have taken us up, with my being some kind of advocate of him.

I'm not.

[chinapig]

2 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

I wouldn't.

I think people are mistaking my recognition that Mark Ashton wasn't a total cretin and had some positive qualities, which with enough money and a decent coach would have taken us up, with my being some kind of advocate of him.

I'm not.

Certainly, if he had acted solely as Chief Executive using the skills he actually had and we had had a functioning recruitment team headed by an expert it might have worked out ok.

It just baffles me that successive clubs have given him so much power.

[Eddie Hitler]

2 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Certainly, if he had acted solely as Chief Executive using the skills he actually had and we had had a functioning recruitment team headed by an expert it might have worked out ok.

It just baffles me that successive clubs have given him so much power.

 

It also does me.

His primary skill is clearly self promotion.

[Gert Mare]

22 hours ago, harrys said:

We have a far better squad than our league position and performances are showing, just maybe it’s a case that Pearson just can’t the best out of them?

We have some players on high wages that have performed better at other clubs, but they had the quality around them to be able to do so.

Unfortunately we have some good players, some inexperienced, some hampered by injury and others not good enough.

If everyone was fit then we might be doing better than we are, but I believe that we are where we should be considering all of the circumstances.

We certainly don’t have any strength in depth.

[Numero Uno]

9 hours ago, italian dave said:

There’s a fairly fine line between overhitting a pass by thirty yards and hoofing the ball forward hopefully - something we were doing routinely on Saturday. 

Not the pass I saw. It wasn’t a hoof, it was dreadful overhit pass, I’ve played and watched enough football to recognise he was looking to find a player.

[Numero Uno]

7 hours ago, italian dave said:

Funnily enough, the comment I made to my mate during the game on Saturday was along the lines of 'never mind a poor advert for Championship football, this would be a poor advert for Downs league football'!

My Son watched it on stream and said it would be a disgrace if that was Scunthorpe v Oldham. Having watched it live my view was slightly stronger!! We can’t all be wrong on that. There literally is no excuse for playing like that, shit storm inherited and lots of work to do, which I agree with or not. I thought an apology was in order it was that bad.

[TV Tom]

8 hours ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

Agreed.

The dream pairing would have been five years of Cotts plus a DoF; not Ashton though.

I don't have a solution now other than to do this; though FFP effectively precludes that for at least another year.

 

 

 

 

Edwin Collins, what a voice, this has cheered me up no end, thanks EH

[BS4 on Tour...]

On 11/04/2022 at 17:58, Mr Sno said:

He won't walk - his reputation had dipped and will only get worse if he quits us.

How had Pearson’s reputation “dipped” ?

[italian dave]

9 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

How had Pearson’s reputation “dipped” ?

Sacked by Leicester - for off field as well as on field reasons

Sacked after a suspension and internal investigation by Derby

Did OK but hardly set the world alight at OHLeuven

Sacked by Watford - I know doesn’t really count given it’s Watford! But still hardly a positive. 

There’s no doubt his overall managerial record is good, but I think it’s fair to describe it as having ‘dipped’ the past few years. 

[BS4 on Tour...]

6 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Sacked by Leicester - for off field as well as on field reasons

Sacked after a suspension and internal investigation by Derby

Did OK but hardly set the world alight at OHLeuven

Sacked by Watford - I know doesn’t really count given it’s Watford! But still hardly a positive. 

There’s no doubt his overall managerial record is good, but I think it’s fair to describe it as having ‘dipped’ the past few years. 

You’ve made this all sound much more sinister than it really was. The “off field reasons” you’ve mentioned with regard to him leaving Leicester were about the actions of his son ... there was no insinuation that Nigel had done anything wrong.

And the ‘suspension and internal investigation’ at Derby was simply because he had a row with the club’s owner (Mel Morris) when the owner started using drones to observe Nigel’s training sessions. I’d expect any manager worth his salt to object to being ‘observed’ in that way. 

So, despite the way you worded your summaries of his departures from Leicester and Derby, I don’t believe Nigel did anything wrong on both occasions ...

[italian dave]

9 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

You’ve made this all sound much more sinister than it really was. The “off field reasons” you’ve mentioned with regard to him leaving Leicester were about the actions of his son ... there was no insinuation that Nigel had done anything wrong.

And the ‘suspension and internal investigation’ at Derby was simply because he had a row with the club’s owner (Mel Morris) when the owner started using drones to observe Nigel’s training sessions. I’d expect any manager worth his salt to object to being ‘observed’ in that way. 

So, despite the way you worded your summaries of his departures from Leicester and Derby, I don’t believe Nigel did anything wrong on both occasions ...

That’s all fair, and it wasn’t my intention to make any of it sound sinister, just to try to keep it brief! But also that there was an ‘off field’ aspect to both as well as league position. 

No, I don’t think he necessarily did anything wrong (I don’t honestly know enough about either incident to go further) but - after a career that had been successful to the point where he generally chose to leave clubs to move on to better - getting sacked four times could, I’d suggest, reasonably be described as ‘dipped’. If there was evidence of wrongdoing as well then we’d be using the world ‘plummeted’.

As I’ve said in previous discussions about our managers, there seems to be this tendency to try to paint everything as black and white. Just as some people can see no good whatsoever in LJ, trying to suggest that NP has a career of unfettered success is equally wrong.

He’s had a great career. But you’d surely acknowledge that his career as a manager has been less successful the past 7 years than it was the previous 7? And if that’s the case, isn’t ‘dipped’ a fair summary? 

[supercidered]

13 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

You’ve made this all sound much more sinister than it really was. The “off field reasons” you’ve mentioned with regard to him leaving Leicester were about the actions of his son ... there was no insinuation that Nigel had done anything wrong.

And the ‘suspension and internal investigation’ at Derby was simply because he had a row with the club’s owner (Mel Morris) when the owner started using drones to observe Nigel’s training sessions. I’d expect any manager worth his salt to object to being ‘observed’ in that way. 

So, despite the way you worded your summaries of his departures from Leicester and Derby, I don’t believe Nigel did anything wrong on both occasions ...

Agree with this BS4.

I don't think NP's reputation has dipped. I think his reputation precedes him in that Owners / Chairman are wary of him. On the lines of, he could do a good job but do I want to employ someone that will challenge and push back and make things uncomfortable at times? 

The above scenario seems to have become a reality for SL & Co and they should've known what NP is and can be. With this in mind, they should now bite the bullet and support him with what he wants as long as what he wants is within the clubs means and timescales. 

A caveat to the 'timescales' this has to be sensible from both SL and NP.  

[supercidered]

6 minutes ago, Mr Sno said:

His reputation has dipped. If it hadn't he wouldn't be with us, he has only ever managed at BIG clubs and now he is at a small fish in a big pond for the first time in his career at this level.

If a top job came up in the champ how many owners would be chasing Pearson, not many after Derby and BCFC.

 

I did try and offer a different view to dipped reputation in the post you have just responded to. 

[Waconda]

4 hours ago, Mr Sno said:

His reputation has dipped. If it hadn't he wouldn't be with us, he has only ever managed at BIG clubs and now he is at a small fish in a big pond for the first time in his career at this level.

If a top job came up in the champ how many owners would be chasing Pearson, not many after Derby and BCFC.

 

Of course his reputation has "dipped" possibly "plummeted".

How that is even up for debate is ludicrous.

He is managing at a bottom quarter Championship side and is statistically their worst manager in 20 years.

[Roadrunner]

Latest interview "Pre season is already arrange". Does not sound like he is going anywhere.

[TMWANG50]

10 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Latest interview "Pre season is already arrange". Does not sound like he is going anywhere.

That interview was typical Robins TV tripe, more scripted than Made In Chelsea :laugh:

He's hardly going to say what he really feels on the club channel..

[TV Tom]

16 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

How had Pearson’s reputation “dipped” ?

Umhh, tough one, but I would hazard a guess that he’s referring to his awful record over the last 15 months?