The Palmer problem

[SecretSam]

Interesting article in the BP about Palmer's contract situation, and the wider issue of the handful of players (Wells, Bents, Kalas, JD) on very high wages.

The point about the impact of losing Afobe to injury, just after he and Palmer had struck up a partnership, is well made. I genuinely believe that as with Wells, there's a good player there - perhaps even Palmer playing in behind Wells. But it doesn't "fit" just now, and they're both in the final year of their contracts.

It will be interesting to see how this is handled for all these players - City will want to hang on to the likes of Kalas, one would assume - but a Weinmann-style deal can be the only way forward. Otherwise, I'd suggest they'll cash in. 

It's a massive risk area for City - and a very challenging managerial conundrum for Pearson and Gould to handle.

BP article on Palmer's contract situation

[1960maaan]

23 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

Interesting article in the BP about Palmer's contract situation, and the wider issue of the handful of players (Wells, Bents, Kalas, JD) on very high wages.

The point about the impact of losing Afobe to injury, just after he and Palmer had struck up a partnership, is well made. I genuinely believe that as with Wells, there's a good player there - perhaps even Palmer playing in behind Wells. But it doesn't "fit" just now, and they're both in the final year of their contracts.

It will be interesting to see how this is handled for all these players - City will want to hang on to the likes of Kalas, one would assume - but a Weinmann-style deal can be the only way forward. Otherwise, I'd suggest they'll cash in. 

It's a massive risk area for City - and a very challenging managerial conundrum for Pearson and Gould to handle.

BP article on Palmer's contract situation

I can't read through that site, all the adds and pop ups are just too annoying.

I agree there is a good player in there, and if Afobe hadn't got injured who knows. Sadly he was given a chance in a side that didn't suit him at all. With the likes of Weimann & Semenyo making runs he could be an asset, but I think Scott has more 'all round game' and Palmer still won't fit in the team.  
The move will, IMO , all come down to his wage demands . The deal has broken down, is that for now, is it a ploy by one party ? Who knows. There are a lot of things that could be done I guess, but with 3 parts of the deal, all looking out for themselves, it's difficult.

City want him off the wage bill, would like a fee obviously, but I do think that's secondary.
Cardiff like him, but wages will be a problem. Plus I guess they would like him on a free.
Palmer stands to earn £1m by doing nothing. If he moves he will have to take a cut in wages. He will however get a longer deal. He has a young family and wants both money and security.
I guess you could add agents into that. They just seem to want money from all sides.

The only way I see it working is City forget a fee ( though may have to top up his wage ). Palmer takes a pay cut, off set by 3 year deal . Cardiff get a free signing but offer that 3rd year for security to Palmer.

Whether this happens, who knows. It may be more than wages, but Palmer could keep his house and the family settled would be happy enough. It seems like a good deal from the outside. But asking anyone to take something like £250k pay cut is never going to be straight forward.

I'd love this to get done quickly.

[robin for life]

The fact is, if a player is sold, a contract is paid up UNLESS the new contract is equal or better to their current contract. This part of the reason we find it hard to sell players we don't want.

The fact is, he is rumoured to be on 20K a week, so effectively with 13 months left on his deal, we stand to pay him £1,120,000 before his contract expires.

Whatever Palmer will earn over the next 13 months, unless it is more, we are contractually obliged to pay him that. Now if he was being sold for decent money, and going for a wage match or more, it is no issue, but the fact is any offer is going to cost Bristol City. Do we see an exit point, where we can recoup the majority of that sort of outlay, I highly doubt this.

Our best option would be to offer him 500K to rip up his contract. In doing this, he is a free agent, and therefore can get the best deal for him and he would be eligible for a signing on fee.

Therefore any Championship / League One club could come in with say £5000 a week, but increasing to £10,000 after x many performances, for say 3 years. This means if he plays and does well, he has the opportunity to get a decent wage, but would still get £250,000 a year for 3 years if he doesn't, he would have got say 750K for this year, from ripping up his contract and new wage. He could probably also get a 100-200K signing on fee. It would also open up the opportunity for a move to Aus or US where he could be signed under the marquee player rule and it wouldn't probably suit him.

Rather than wasting time trying to thrash out a deal with clubs to recoup what we can, we are far better negotiating with him what it would take to terminate his contract. 

[Simon bristol]

Our best hope is a nagy deal where he is released with no further liability to us once he signs a new contract. If cardiff offered him 3 years he may be tempted to go for it.

however, if he wants to sit an take the extra million quid who could blame him. What a rediculous situation to find ourselves in though, you would have thought its happened often enough to learn from it.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, robin for life said:

The fact is, if a player is sold, a contract is paid up UNLESS the new contract is equal or better to their current contract. This part of the reason we find it hard to sell players we don't want.

The fact is, he is rumoured to be on 20K a week, so effectively with 13 months left on his deal, we stand to pay him £1,120,000 before his contract expires.

Whatever Palmer will earn over the next 13 months, unless it is more, we are contractually obliged to pay him that. Now if he was being sold for decent money, and going for a wage match or more, it is no issue, but the fact is any offer is going to cost Bristol City. Do we see an exit point, where we can recoup the majority of that sort of outlay, I highly doubt this.

Our best option would be to offer him 500K to rip up his contract. In doing this, he is a free agent, and therefore can get the best deal for him and he would be eligible for a signing on fee.

Therefore any Championship / League One club could come in with say £5000 a week, but increasing to £10,000 after x many performances, for say 3 years. This means if he plays and does well, he has the opportunity to get a decent wage, but would still get £250,000 a year for 3 years if he doesn't, he would have got say 750K for this year, from ripping up his contract and new wage. He could probably also get a 100-200K signing on fee. It would also open up the opportunity for a move to Aus or US where he could be signed under the marquee player rule and it wouldn't probably suit him.

Rather than wasting time trying to thrash out a deal with clubs to recoup what we can, we are far better negotiating with him what it would take to terminate his contract. 

We are also writing off an amortisation cost of £875k in 22/23 too.

How do we reach the balance of avoiding a total sunk cost of £1.875m (£1m wages plus £875k amortisation) if he turns up for training but doesn’t get picked….versus shifting him either (a) out the door by paying him off or (b) doing a deal with a club to take him on and reduce that sunk cost.

Compromise is needed, but all parties have to compromise….where is the balance to be found between City, Kasey and potentially another club.

Its not unlike Henri Lansbury, although Villa reached the “payoff” conclusion in the Jan window.  Pay him off 75% (I’m guessing) of his remaining contract and bonuses, to give him the chance to find a new club on a low wage to put himself in the shop window for a longer contract.  City took that low wage 6 month deal.  Lansbury earned a gig at Luton.  By the looks of it that was a multi-year contract as he hasn’t featured in their Released List announcement.

The difference between us and Villa, is that they are in a much better financial position to pay off a player than we are.

The term “shit sandwich” springs to mind.

[TonyTonyTony]

Palmer is a big problem , no doubt. However, the defence is also a massive issue. If Klose/Cundy don't sign you are left with Vyner/Moore as back up to CB who Pearson doesn't fancy. So whilst KP is a big financial headache, id suggest there are bigger footballing headaches to think about

[Rocking Red Cyril]

What seems worrying to me is this all seems about money. Surely Palmer should want to be playing regular football . I know he needs to earn his money in a short career. But his career is a non playing career at present. And yes I know 1 mill plus for the next year is a tidy sum. Trouble seems Cardiff want to do this on minimum expense, City want to reduce costs and Palmer wants to maximise wages. The football seems to come in seconed place.

Just my thoughts  

 

 

 

 

[robin for life]

30 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Palmer is a big problem , no doubt. However, the defence is also a massive issue. If Klose/Cundy don't sign you are left with Vyner/Moore as back up to CB who Pearson doesn't fancy. So whilst KP is a big financial headache, id suggest there are bigger footballing headaches to think about

I wouldn't worry too much about the defenders. I have a feeling Cundy will go as he will probably get guaranteed first team football in League One and he was not on much money here. I suspect Klose will renew his contract, he might be seeing if there is any interest still at Norwich to return for a year, as he still lives in the area, but I suspect he will put pen to paper soon enough. He is already first choice central defender here and on what he has shown in the last 5 months, he could justify asking for a better deal than the short term one he signed, and I suspect we will be willing to grant one. He might struggle to get the guarantees we could give him elsewhere, but I understand in his position seeing what's available before signing, but I am pretty sure he will sign for us. 

[robin for life]

29 minutes ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

What seems worrying to me is this all seems about money. Surely Palmer should want to be playing regular football . I know he needs to earn his money in a short career. But his career is a non playing career at present. And yes I know 1 mill plus for the next year is a tidy sum. Trouble seems Cardiff want to do this on minimum expense, City want to reduce costs and Palmer wants to maximise wages. The football seems to come in seconed place.

Just my thoughts  

 

 

 

 

Even if he runs down his contract here, he wont struggle to get a club in US or Aus in a years time. Ex Chelsea, Premier League/Championship performer. He wont struggle to get there as a marquee player, but none of those clubs buy players, they sign them on frees. That's why we are better off terminating his contract with some proviso's regarding compensation should he sign for another club this year, as he will be a target for those clubs as a free agent.

[brady bunch]

Shout out for another masterpiece of an article by James Piercy, you can tell its written by him just by reading it, he by far the best and most insightful local jorno we have covering City.

I love the way he states "its" the contract that is the issue, not Palmer, I completely agree with that, its not Palmer's fault we paid loads of money out for him, (yes he needs to be sensible now and look to earn his keep by playing footy elsewhere), but it was the result of a pre covid spending boom we did to get to the PL.

 

 

[GrahamC]

7 minutes ago, robin for life said:

I wouldn't worry too much about the defenders. I have a feeling Cundy will go as he will probably get guaranteed first team football in League One and he was not on much money here. I suspect Klose will renew his contract, he might be seeing if there is any interest still at Norwich to return for a year, as he still lives in the area, but I suspect he will put pen to paper soon enough. He is already first choice central defender here and on what he has shown in the last 5 months, he could justify asking for a better deal than the short term one he signed, and I suspect we will be willing to grant one. He might struggle to get the guarantees we could give him elsewhere, but I understand in his position seeing what's available before signing, but I am pretty sure he will sign for us. 

Absolutely.

The central defender issue is complicated but I don’t think Palmer’s future has any relevance there at all.

As others have said, Curtis Davies appears to be plan B if Klose doesn’t sign (like you, my hunch is he will) & the Northampton lad Horsfall is plan B for Cundy (who I think will go elsewhere), with Atkinson & Kalas both under contract for 22/23 & in the former’s case, a year or two beyond, I’m not anxious.

RB is interesting, Kane Wilson is really better suited to RWB, so let’s see how that develops.

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

What seems worrying to me is this all seems about money. Surely Palmer should want to be playing regular football . I know he needs to earn his money in a short career. But his career is a non playing career at present. And yes I know 1 mill plus for the next year is a tidy sum. Trouble seems Cardiff want to do this on minimum expense, City want to reduce costs and Palmer wants to maximise wages. The football seems to come in seconed place.

Just my thoughts  

 

 

 

 

He is playing regular football...everyday in training. 

Gets to train, play, learn (coached), eat healthily, keep fit, whilst being paid said over a £Million for the next year. 

Gets a load of time off to spend with young family in a lovely City. 

He's made for life.

At his age he will know his limits. He will know he isn't Prem quality and can go through the motions at a lower wage with another team at this level or below. He'll still get a team after this final year, all be it on a lower, but still decent wage.

Why want to play match day and be under pressure and judged weekly?

He's living the dream. Millionaire, playing football every day with no pressure. If your main drive in life is your young family, it's a no brainer.

This is why people are still fixated with Ashton...this situation is his doing.

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by spudski

[Red Skin]

Palmer needs to play games to have a chance of making a career in the game.   If he stays with us and doesn't play he becomes an even less attractive player for possible suitors.   He may be out of the game in two or  years if he doesn't make a sensible decision and move on this summer.  That may mean sacrificing wages now to make sure he earns decent money for the next 7 or 8 years.  It'll be best for him and the club. 

[spudski]

42 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

Palmer needs to play games to have a chance of making a career in the game.   If he stays with us and doesn't play he becomes an even less attractive player for possible suitors.   He may be out of the game in two or  years if he doesn't make a sensible decision and move on this summer.  That may mean sacrificing wages now to make sure he earns decent money for the next 7 or 8 years.  It'll be best for him and the club. 

Imo he doesn't need to. Make over a million in a year. Some outfit will turn up after that and still offer him a decent wage. Some teams see a CV. Chelsea and 4 Championship teams and will go for it. 

At a push, unless right contract comes along, I can see him staying or loan deal with percentage wages paid.

Just now, spudski said:

Imo he doesn't need to. Make over a million in a year. Some outfit will turn up after that and still offer him a decent wage. Some teams see a CV. Chelsea and 4 Championship teams, International and will go for it. 

At a push, unless right contract comes along, I can see him staying or loan deal with percentage wages paid.

 

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

Can't we recoup our money by putting him out to stud. 

[SecretSam]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

We are also writing off an amortisation cost of £875k in 22/23 too.

How do we reach the balance of avoiding a total sunk cost of £1.875m (£1m wages plus £875k amortisation) if he turns up for training but doesn’t get picked….versus shifting him either (a) out the door by paying him off or (b) doing a deal with a club to take him on and reduce that sunk cost.

Dave, you're going to have to point me in the direction of an article (etc) that explains how Amortisation works in football. Feel free to be a bit techy, I have a background in finance!

[Red Skin]

10 minutes ago, spudski said:

Imo he doesn't need to. Make over a million in a year. Some outfit will turn up after that and still offer him a decent wage. Some teams see a CV. Chelsea and 4 Championship teams and will go for it. 

At a push, unless right contract comes along, I can see him staying or loan deal with percentage wages paid.

Maybe so, but I see 'failed' at 4 championship clubs.  He could become a vanity project by some manager that feels he can get a tune out of him though.   Undoubtedly talented, but for me it's his attitude and hunger that's at question.  Taking a pay cut to play - and he will still have a comfortable life - would be a good way to answer that question for me.  

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, robin for life said:

Even if he runs down his contract here, he wont struggle to get a club in US or Aus in a years time. Ex Chelsea, Premier League/Championship performer. He wont struggle to get there as a marquee player, but none of those clubs buy players, they sign them on frees. That's why we are better off terminating his contract with some proviso's regarding compensation should he sign for another club this year, as he will be a target for those clubs as a free agent.

I think that is going to be the solution if we can’t get him off our hands in a financially sensible way.

1 minute ago, SecretSam said:

Dave, you're going to have to point me in the direction of an article (etc) that explains how Amortisation works in football. Feel free to be a bit techy, I have a background in finance!

It’s a posh word for depreciation.

TK signed for £8m on a 4 year contract.

From a Profit and Loss Accounting perspective, he costs us £2m per year in amortisation.  Not to be confused with staged payments or anything like that.

From a Balance Sheet perspective his value decreases from £8m to £6m to £4m to £2m to £0 as each year passes.

TK with one year left is sat at £2m in the balance sheet, having cost us £6m in amortisation so far.

FFP is closely linked to Profit and Loss.

Shout if you want more info.

[SecretSam]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

I think that is going to be the solution if we can’t get him off our hands in a financially sensible way.

It’s a posh word for depreciation.

TK signed for £8m on a 4 year contract.

From a Profit and Loss Accounting perspective, he costs us £2m per year in amortisation.  Not to be confused with staged payments or anything like that.

From a Balance Sheet perspective his value decreases from £8m to £6m to £4m to £2m to £0 as each year passes.

TK with one year left is sat at £2m in the balance sheet, having cost us £6m in amortisation so far.

FFP is closely linked to Profit and Loss.

Shout if you want more info.

Technically, he doesn't "cost" us, as the expenditure has already been made. Depreciation is a treatment of the value of an asset, in preparation for its replacement, rather than a cash transaction. 

[spudski]

1 minute ago, Red Skin said:

Maybe so, but I see 'failed' at 4 championship clubs.  He could become a vanity project by some manager that feels he can get a tune out of him though.   Undoubtedly talented, but for me it's his attitude and hunger that's at question.  Taking a pay cut to play - and he will still have a comfortable life - would be a good way to answer that question for me.  

That's if you have the hunger still.

For some players it's just a job and some are happy to go through the motions without busting a gut.

Others know their level.

Think how well he's been paid throughout his career.

And as you say...vanity inclusion or as I implied... he'll still get a decent wage after this contract.

You have to look at it from the view of the player, rather than as a fan.

I'm not saying it's the case here, but for some players it literally is like a menial boring job. Going through the motions.

 

[BTRFTG]

Halfway through last season Palmer was offered a route out to a new club with City agreeing to make up his wages until what would have been the end of his contract with us (and no, it wasn't Cardiff.) He didn't hesitate in confirming he rather just trouser the cash than up and earn a living, even if that meant,  and as management clearly informed, he and his attitude would be persona non grata amongst the kids and stiffs at Failand.

Personification of just about everything that's amiss with football today. Another who thinks being once associated with the thousands of other premier starlets makes him God's gift. In truth he's a midfield who's unable to retain possession and that's as rank an assessment as one might make.

[Rob k]

32 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Halfway through last season Palmer was offered a route out to a new club with City agreeing to make up his wages until what would have been the end of his contract with us (and no, it wasn't Cardiff.) He didn't hesitate in confirming he rather just trouser the cash than up and earn a living, even if that meant,  and as management clearly informed, he and his attitude would be persona non grata amongst the kids and stiffs at Failand.

Personification of just about everything that's amiss with football today. Another who thinks being once associated with the thousands of other premier starlets makes him God's gift. In truth he's a midfield who's unable to retain possession and that's as rank an assessment as one might make.

Which club was that? 

[CodeRed]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

 

Gets a load of time off to spend with young family in a lovely City. 

 

He lives in Swansea the last I heard !!!

So not lovely then 

[BTRFTG]

18 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Which club was that? 

You'd guess it pretty quickly.....

[DaveF]

1 hour ago, BTRFTG said:

Halfway through last season Palmer was offered a route out to a new club with City agreeing to make up his wages until what would have been the end of his contract with us (and no, it wasn't Cardiff.) He didn't hesitate in confirming he rather just trouser the cash than up and earn a living, even if that meant,  and as management clearly informed, he and his attitude would be persona non grata amongst the kids and stiffs at Failand.

Personification of just about everything that's amiss with football today. Another who thinks being once associated with the thousands of other premier starlets makes him God's gift. In truth he's a midfield who's unable to retain possession and that's as rank an assessment as one might make.

Is that true though...?

[BTRFTG]

15 minutes ago, DaveF said:

Is that true though...?

Yes. It's why with the impasse he went in for elective, minor surgery.

Edited May 27, 2022 by BTRFTG

[Bristol Oil Services]

41 minutes ago, CodeRed said:

He lives in Swansea the last I heard !!!

So not lovely then 

And stretching the term city I would say

[Mad Cyril]

Do you really believe any footballer is happy wasting a chunk of their short career not playing the game?

Even Bale would rather be playing, albeit at a team where he is appreciated.

Sometimes a big fat contract can actually be a curse not a gift.

The best outcome in any such situation for every party is to find a way the player can get back in the team and have an impact.

[BTRFTG]

28 minutes ago, Mad Cyril said:

Do you really believe any footballer is happy wasting a chunk of their short career not playing the game?

Even Bale would rather be playing, albeit at a team where he is appreciated.

Sometimes a big fat contract can actually be a curse not a gift.

The best outcome in any such situation for every party is to find a way the player can get back in the team and have an impact.

Yep, plenty of them down the years and it's getting worse.

Many kids retained by Premier clubs until they're 23 have enough money never to have to play again when released and that's why they pack it in.

It's real problem for football development here taking hundreds of EFL standard players out of the game before they ever have a chance to show what they might have achieved.

[Unan]

8 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

I can't read through that site, all the adds and pop ups are just too annoying.

I agree there is a good player in there, and if Afobe hadn't got injured who knows. Sadly he was given a chance in a side that didn't suit him at all. With the likes of Weimann & Semenyo making runs he could be an asset, but I think Scott has more 'all round game' and Palmer still won't fit in the team.  
The move will, IMO , all come down to his wage demands . The deal has broken down, is that for now, is it a ploy by one party ? Who knows. There are a lot of things that could be done I guess, but with 3 parts of the deal, all looking out for themselves, it's difficult.

City want him off the wage bill, would like a fee obviously, but I do think that's secondary.
Cardiff like him, but wages will be a problem. Plus I guess they would like him on a free.
Palmer stands to earn £1m by doing nothing. If he moves he will have to take a cut in wages. He will however get a longer deal. He has a young family and wants both money and security.
I guess you could add agents into that. They just seem to want money from all sides.

The only way I see it working is City forget a fee ( though may have to top up his wage ). Palmer takes a pay cut, off set by 3 year deal . Cardiff get a free signing but offer that 3rd year for security to Palmer.

Whether this happens, who knows. It may be more than wages, but Palmer could keep his house and the family settled would be happy enough. It seems like a good deal from the outside. But asking anyone to take something like £250k pay cut is never going to be straight forward.

I'd love this to get done quickly.

On most browsers, normally to the right of the URL bar, you have the option to remove all visual content & only read the article, the button is usually a piece of paper with straight lines across indicating text only.

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, BTRFTG said:

Yep, plenty of them down the years and it's getting worse.

Many kids retained by Premier clubs until they're 23 have enough money never to have to play again when released and that's why they pack it in.

It's real problem for football development here taking hundreds of EFL standard players out of the game before they ever have a chance to show what they might have achieved.

As Gary Johnson said, some of them like being footballers but don't like playing football.

[Sir Geoff]

1 hour ago, Mad Cyril said:

Do you really believe any footballer is happy wasting a chunk of their short career not playing the game?

Even Bale would rather be playing, albeit at a team where he is appreciated.

Sometimes a big fat contract can actually be a curse not a gift.

The best outcome in any such situation for every party is to find a way the player can get back in the team and have an impact.

Didn't seem like it last year at Spurs imo.

[1960maaan]

2 hours ago, Marcus Aurelius said:

On most browsers, normally to the right of the URL bar, you have the option to remove all visual content & only read the article, the button is usually a piece of paper with straight lines across indicating text only.

It's happened all of a sudden without me touching anything. 

I'll have a look though , cheers.

[Rocking Red Cyril]

20 hours ago, spudski said:

He is playing regular football...everyday in training. 

Gets to train, play, learn (coached), eat healthily, keep fit, whilst being paid said over a £Million for the next year. 

Gets a load of time off to spend with young family in a lovely City. 

He's made for life.

At his age he will know his limits. He will know he isn't Prem quality and can go through the motions at a lower wage with another team at this level or below. He'll still get a team after this final year, all be it on a lower, but still decent wage.

Why want to play match day and be under pressure and judged weekly?

He's living the dream. Millionaire, playing football every day with no pressure. If your main drive in life is your young family, it's a no brainer.

This is why people are still fixated with Ashton...this situation is his doing.

 

Surely his main drive should be to be playing first team football 

[NcnsBcfc]

Can't help feeling that maybe the relationship between Palmer and the club has broken down now, to the extent that he may well just see out his contract.

He was always going to be the most difficult to shift from our long list of players we want to move on. A combination of lack of playing time, high wages; and "injuries".

Either way, that's QPR, Birmingham; and Cardiff that have all looked as to whether a deal can be done. If KP was interested for footballing reasons he would have gone out on loan/perm long ago. It is now a question of who backs down first, the club or KP over taking a hit.

His current stance just reminds me of Bogarde at Chelsea all those years ago.

Either way the Palmer deal must go down as potentially the worst deal in my time watching city ,(since 1977).

[GrahamC]

@NcnsBcfc Think Engvall & Styvar run him close, but agree.

[NcnsBcfc]

2 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

@NcnsBcfc Think Engvall & Styvar run him close, but agree.

@GrahamC good shout on both of those.

But the transfer fee, probably loan fee before that; and the subsequent wages pushes Palmer into a whole new level for me. 

[IdliketoRogerMoore]

3 hours ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

Surely his main drive should be to be playing first team football 

From whose point of view you’d be surprised at the amount of players who don’t like football don’t like playing it just happened to ggo’s enough to go pro and make money! For proof you have to look no further than 3rd choice goalkeepers in the prem, never likely to play but will get paid very handsomely to train fitness eat well and be finished work at like 12:30ish everyday!

[Superjack]

Said it at the start and I'll say it again. "Show Pony".

Could have understood why we signed him if we hadn't already seen him on loan.

Was delighted when we signed Kalas and Dasilva permanently. I said at the time, "We have got the two we needed". Then Ashton and Johnson couldn't help themselves.

It will sting, but I think we should just pay the ****er up and get shot.

[Dr Balls]

On 28/05/2022 at 12:51, IdliketoRogerMoore said:

From whose point of view you’d be surprised at the amount of players who don’t like football don’t like playing it just happened to ggo’s enough to go pro and make money! For proof you have to look no further than 3rd choice goalkeepers in the prem, never likely to play but will get paid very handsomely to train fitness eat well and be finished work at like 12:30ish everyday!

Yes but many 3rd choice goalkeepers are either youngsters coming through who may or may not get a loan or permanent deal elsewhere in due course or players coming to the end of their careers who are looking to make a bit of extra money and don’t mind not playing much. They may also do a bit of coaching on the side.

Palmer’s position is completely different. He is in his mid 20s. He could have another 10 years of a career where he might get paid another £5 million plus, with a bit of luck and some application on his part. Or he could sit out the next year and bank a million. The latter sounds initially attractive from an income perspective, but then what? Who will want a player who hasn’t made it at a number of Championship clubs? League 1 wages are a lot less so his only other options for anything similar to what he’s getting now are USA, Australia or China.

If I was his agent, I would be telling him that another year of not playing much at Championship level is not going to do him any favours in the long term. Get your deal paid up to terminate the contract, make up most of the difference with a signing on fee as a free agent and get another 3 year contract at Championship level even if it is on less wages than now. The problem is that in the short term that may not be the biggest earner for his agent who is the fourth person to add into this mix of player, club and potential new club.

[The Bard]

On 28/05/2022 at 09:20, NcnsBcfc said:

@GrahamC good shout on both of those.

But the transfer fee, probably loan fee before that; and the subsequent wages pushes Palmer into a whole new level for me. 

Absolutely.  

[robin for life]

33 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Yes but many 3rd choice goalkeepers are either youngsters coming through who may or may not get a loan or permanent deal elsewhere in due course or players coming to the end of their careers who are looking to make a bit of extra money and don’t mind not playing much. They may also do a bit of coaching on the side.

Palmer’s position is completely different. He is in his mid 20s. He could have another 10 years of a career where he might get paid another £5 million plus, with a bit of luck and some application on his part. Or he could sit out the next year and bank a million. The latter sounds initially attractive from an income perspective, but then what? Who will want a player who hasn’t made it at a number of Championship clubs? League 1 wages are a lot less so his only other options for anything similar to what he’s getting now are USA, Australia or China.

If I was his agent, I would be telling him that another year of not playing much at Championship level is not going to do him any favours in the long term. Get your deal paid up to terminate the contract, make up most of the difference with a signing on fee as a free agent and get another 3 year contract at Championship level even if it is on less wages than now. The problem is that in the short term that may not be the biggest earner for his agent who is the fourth person to add into this mix of player, club and potential new club.

Australia has strict rules now. 8 of a 20 man squad, have to be home grown, A Maximum wage of 15,000 AUD applies, except for a maximum of 2 Marquee players who can be paid a maximum of 1,500,000 AUD a season. This included bonuses and signing on fees, wages and everything. So effectively about 750,000 a season or 14,400 a week, but this includes everything and is a maximum of 2 players per team, the remainder can't be on anymore than 15,000 AUD a week, including all fees and bonuses. Therefore very few bigger names are ending up in Aus now, and a lot are moving from MLS, or J League or lesser leagues in Europe. Gone are the days of Premier League and Championship players galore ending up in AUS.

Many end up in China, and only when exhausted money out there, go to Aus. I know earlier in the year Aaron Mooy wanted to head back to Melbourne City, but they already had 2 marquee players so he wasn't a viable option.

Kasey Palmer would have to go down as a Marquee player to go out there, as he wont take less than 7.5K a week all in, I'm sure. Even if he went anywhere as a Marquee player (Of the 12 teams, 6 have already 2 Marquee players contracted for next season and 4 have 1, 2 have none) we would have to foot some of the wages.

If we terminate his contract with compensation, a move out there becomes somewhat possible, but it wouldn't be as lucrative as it was 5/6 years ago. 

As a club, we should be scouting the A League, as a lot of young players are getting a lot of game time and experience out there now. There's a lot of under 25s who would not cost the earth and given the max wage they would have been on is 7,500 a week, we would be an attractive proposition.

Lachlan Wales (Western United), Birkan Kirdar (Melbourne Victory), Daniel Walsh (Perth Glory), Tate Russell (Western Sydney) & George Blackwood (Adelaide United) are all very good promising players who have stood out this year and could easily play at Championship Level, and a few of these will end up Socceroo's before long. If we were to lose one of our midfielders or strikers in the summer, Lachlan Wales or George Blackwood could certainly come in and do a job.

I mentioned in the if Pearson got sacked who should be our next manager thread the other week, that we should look at John Aloisi as a potential manager. He has done wonders at Western United, and they have one of the smallest budgets being one of the newest sides and he got Brisbane very competitive until 2018 when he left them to join Western United when they joined the A League. This year, they have been outstanding with their quick, impressive passing football and Aloisi was a decent player in the 90s and even played for Portsmouth, and Coventry behind return to AUS. He got Roar who had been bottom 3 team for season's a top 4 team and semi finalists , before he resigned and had a break from management. Last year he then joined Western United and has taken them from being the 10th best team, to 3rd, having been up there for most of the season. He then has seen them go to the final of the grand series and win it. The way they played the first half yesterday against Melbourne City (sister club of Man City) showed Aloisi's tactical genius, and then they closed it out in the second half. This is Aloisi's first major honour as a manager, but at 46, his style of football has him tipped to be the next Socceroo boss. If we did part ways with Pearson at any time in the next 12 months, he is exactly the sort of manager who could get us to the premier league. He has worked on the 11th highest budget in the A League, and was unable to sign a single marquee players as the clubs finances couldn't afford it, yet he has led them to the series finals and won the series. A manager who has a team play attacking and impressive passing football and able to close games out, and run down the clock when winning and then show the heart to win when it matters, and on a shoe string budget. Regardless of what league you're in, these qualities show Aloisi as a potential top class manager and he is still young at 46, and has a good CV in the game as a player. He's a manager the fans would hate as many would have never heard of him, but he would be exactly the type of manager who would take us to the Premier League. 

[DOZZYBCFC]

On 27/05/2022 at 14:22, CodeRed said:

He lives in Swansea the last I heard !!!

So not lovely then 

He doesn’t live in Swansea, has a house in the same estate as Nahki.

[robin for life]

Just now, DOZZYBCFC said:

He doesn’t live in Swansea, has a house in the same estate as Nahki.

Development ...... Footballers don't live in estates  

[DOZZYBCFC]

5 minutes ago, robin for life said:

Development ...... Footballers don't live in estates  

Lol was thinking that as I wrote it!

[77 punk]

how would palmers contract be taken on if coventry bought him ?

Edited June 6, 2022 by 77 punk

[SBB]

18 minutes ago, 77 punk said:

how would palmers contract be taken on if coventry bought him ?

See the other thread, in the transfer section.

[downendcity]

KP might well chose to stay here just to pick up £1m in wages for the last ear of his contract, but if he's not playing during that time, what then for him? 

With no game time for us, and a history of failing to produce at a few clubs, when his contract finishes in a years' time there is a real danger that he could be offered  a substantial drop in wages and only a short term contract by a new club, which is not great for a player in his his prime.

Conversely, and while his stock is still reasonably good ( skill , ability and potential if someone can get it out of him) there is some logic to a mutual agreement to tear up his contract. While he might then lose out on the £1m wages he would have picked up here over the last year of his present contract, a new club could compensate for that with a decent signing on fee, as they would not have to pay a transfer fee to us. Also, while he would almost certainly have to take a drop on his current wages there is a good chance that he would still be on a good money and crucially on something like a 2/3 year deal.

In addition to the above and as has already been suggested, we might also contribute towards his wages to "sweeten" the deal for both KP and a potential new club, in order to get him off the books and thereby improve our ffp position.

 

[The Bard]

8 hours ago, 77 punk said:

how would palmers contract be taken on if coventry bought him ?

That would be subject to negotiation between him and his agent, us and the buying club.  

We'd still probably have to pay him something for him to essentially rip up his contract with us.  Once that's done,  he'll probably then accept much lower wage at a new club but over 2 or 3 years.

If he thinks he can sit on his arse for another year and still get a decent contract next season he's kidding himself.  He's probably already got a reputation similar to Jack Rodwell 

[And Its Smith]

5 minutes ago, The Bard said:

That would be subject to negotiation between him and his agent, us and the buying club.  

We'd still probably have to pay him something for him to essentially rip up his contract with us.  Once that's done,  he'll probably then accept much lower wage at a new club but over 2 or 3 years.

If he thinks he can sit on his arse for another year and still get a decent contract next season he's kidding himself.  He's probably already got a reputation similar to Jack Rodwell 

There will always be a club who is willing to sign players like Kasey Palmer on a free for a 2 year deal and pay him good money so I think he probably could get a decent contract next season.  Coaches will back themselves to improve his desire 

[The Bard]

5 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

There will always be a club who is willing to sign players like Kasey Palmer on a free for a 2 year deal and pay him good money so I think he probably could get a decent contract next season.  Coaches will back themselves to improve his desire 

I find that bizarre. Surely it would be better to sign someone with a superb attitude who will improve technically because of their football coaching.  

They read SAF's autobiography and they think they're geniuses in man-management.

[1960maaan]

On 29/05/2022 at 17:08, robin for life said:

As a club, we should be scouting the A League, as a lot of young players are getting a lot of game time and experience out there now. There's a lot of under 25s who would not cost the earth and given the max wage they would have been on is 7,500 a week, we would be an attractive proposition.

Lachlan Wales (Western United), Birkan Kirdar (Melbourne Victory), Daniel Walsh (Perth Glory), Tate Russell (Western Sydney) & George Blackwood (Adelaide United) are all very good promising players who have stood out this year and could easily play at Championship Level, and a few of these will end up Socceroo's before long. If we were to lose one of our midfielders or strikers in the summer, Lachlan Wales or George Blackwood could certainly come in and do a job.

 

If you haven't already, you should stick these suggestions on the ** Independent Fans Scouting Group ** page on here.

[TheReds]

On 29/05/2022 at 15:10, Superjack said:

Said it at the start and I'll say it again. "Show Pony".

Could have understood why we signed him if we hadn't already seen him on loan.

Was delighted when we signed Kalas and Dasilva permanently. I said at the time, "We have got the two we needed". Then Ashton and Johnson couldn't help themselves.

It will sting, but I think we should just pay the ****er up and get shot.

As much is it was down to them, didn't the majority of fans want him as well? I cannot remember too much negativity before signing him permanently, or when it was a done deal. It just hasn't worked out, he needs to play in the right type of formation/team/players etc.

Reading some of the stuff on here (now) you would think nobody at all wanted him bar Ashton/LJ, which was definitely not the case.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, TheReds said:

As much is it was down to them, didn't the majority of fans want him as well? I cannot remember too much negativity before signing him permanently, or when it was a done deal. It just hasn't worked out, he needs to play in the right type of formation/team/players etc.

Reading some of the stuff on here (now) you would think nobody at all wanted him bar Ashton/LJ, which was definitely not the case.

I was certainly happy he signed, but questioned the timing and the strategy having already signed Szmodics and Pato being here.

It hasn’t worked out bar a 5 game spell in 19/20 and another 5 game spell when returning from his Swansea loan in 20/21.

[TheReds]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I was certainly happy he signed, but questioned the timing and the strategy having already signed Szmodics and Pato being here.

It hasn’t worked out bar a 5 game spell in 19/20 and another 5 game spell when returning from his Swansea loan in 20/21.

I do not disagree, but no doubt there are many on here where who seem to imply we should have never have signed him, worse signing ever (hindsight), yet I really cannot remember a huge bunch of people actually against the signing at the time, and it seemed to me (I may well be wrong), that the huge majority of fans were ecstatic when it was announced.

[Leveller]

17 minutes ago, TheReds said:

I do not disagree, but no doubt there are many on here where who seem to imply we should have never have signed him, worse signing ever (hindsight), yet I really cannot remember a huge bunch of people actually against the signing at the time, and it seemed to me (I may well be wrong), that the huge majority of fans were ecstatic when it was announced.

Football fans seem ridiculously prone to extremes of adulation and dislike.

Palmer was obviously hugely popular at one stage - or with one group - given the crowd song that was prevalent for a while.

Now, people talk as if he was bought by the management as an act of sheer folly that we all recognised at the time.

[PHILINFRANCE]

Palmer wasn't the first 'star' player signed after fans' loud adulation following a successful loan.

I seem to recall a similar situation with Lee Tomlin.

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, Leveller said:

Football fans seem ridiculously prone to extremes of adulation and dislike.

Palmer was obviously hugely popular at one stage - or with one group - given the crowd song that was prevalent for a while.

Now, people talk as if he was bought by the management as an act of sheer folly that we all recognised at the time.

I think it's somewhere between the two.

It was a very strange buy, and it's been talked about before.
We had Szmodics all through pre season doing well. Then just as Swansea looked to sign Palmer, we dived in. 
He did look very good at times, with Afobe/Weimann ahead of him we looked like we could be decent. Then we had a spell where we were struggling. No one looked good in that side and Palmer looked like a luxury player.
I still think he's a good player, in the right side. I also think that Covers could be a good fit for him.

Without doubt it's good to get his wage off of the Bill, shame we couldn't get some of that £2m back, but we have to be grateful for small mercies .

[TheReds]

13 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Palmer wasn't the first 'star' player signed after fans' loud adulation following a successful loan.

I seem to recall a similar situation with Lee Tomlin.

I was just going to mention him myself!

[GTFABM]

1 hour ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Palmer wasn't the first 'star' player signed after fans' loud adulation following a successful loan.

I seem to recall a similar situation with Lee Tomlin.

Difference is Tomlin was more than decent on loan. Palmer really didn’t show anything of note. 

[Show Me The Money!]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I was certainly happy he signed, but questioned the timing and the strategy having already signed Szmodics and Pato being here.

It hasn’t worked out bar a 5 game spell in 19/20 and another 5 game spell when returning from his Swansea loan in 20/21.

It was a weird one as for much of his loan period before we signed him permanently he was on the subs bench, so always makes me wonder what LJ saw in him that suggested we should keep him. Unless we had agreed to sign him as part of that loan deal

 

[robin for life]

11 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

If you haven't already, you should stick these suggestions on the ** Independent Fans Scouting Group ** page on here.

Didn't know there was one, or where to find it. 

[Son of Fred]

7 hours ago, Show Me The Money! said:

makes me wonder what LJ saw in him that suggested we should keep him. Unless we had agreed to sign him as part of that loan deal

That would have been insanity..

Hang on a minute!

[chinapig]

38 minutes ago, robin for life said:

Didn't know there was one, or where to find it. 

https://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?/topic/215981-independent-fans-scouting-group/

 

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, robin for life said:

Didn't know there was one, or where to find it. 

Here you go.

 

[Superjack]

14 hours ago, TheReds said:

As much is it was down to them, didn't the majority of fans want him as well? I cannot remember too much negativity before signing him permanently, or when it was a done deal. It just hasn't worked out, he needs to play in the right type of formation/team/players etc.

Reading some of the stuff on here (now) you would think nobody at all wanted him bar Ashton/LJ, which was definitely not the case.

You may be correct. I can't speak for the whole fanbase. Only myself.

[Bristol Oil Services]

21 hours ago, TheReds said:

I do not disagree, but no doubt there are many on here where who seem to imply we should have never have signed him, worse signing ever (hindsight), yet I really cannot remember a huge bunch of people actually against the signing at the time, and it seemed to me (I may well be wrong), that the huge majority of fans were ecstatic when it was announced.

We are only privy though to a fraction of the information LJ and MA would've had at their disposal when making their decision to sign him - the first to take the plunge and offer him a permanent contract. We can only go by what we see on matchday, and that's missing a lot of vital info. 

LJ and MA were paid handsomely to get enough of these decisions right, and they got far too many wrong.

[Monkeh]

30 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

We are only privy though to a fraction of the information LJ and MA would've had at their disposal when making their decision to sign him - the first to take the plunge and offer him a permanent contract. We can only go by what we see on matchday, and that's missing a lot of vital info. 

LJ and MA were paid handsomely to get enough of these decisions right, and they got far too many wrong.

You have to factor the fans in on this as well,

Like with tomlin the fans took to him quickly and had a chant for him while on loan,

It's a signing made to appease the fans imo nothing more,

To put at ease the grumbles after another season had collapsed into mediocrity 

[Sheltons Army]

18 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

You have to factor the fans in on this as well,

Like with tomlin the fans took to him quickly and had a chant for him while on loan,

It's a signing made to appease the fans imo nothing more,

To put at ease the grumbles after another season had collapsed into mediocrity 

If we were signing players to ‘appease the fans’ , they were even more stupid and incompetent than I thought

 

He was a vanity signing by the pair of them 

[Monkeh]

16 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

If we were signing players to ‘appease the fans’ , they were even more stupid and incompetent than I thought

 

He was a vanity signing by the pair of them 

They are stupid, and it was to appease the fans imo, the same as signing tomlin,