£15.3 million

[Jerseybean]

SL has, yet again, put his hand in his pocket and purchased £15.3 m worth of shares…..https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/bristol-city-owner-steve-lansdown-7158256

 

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

A welcome injection from SL but he must hold more shares than the real value of the club by now. In the event of any future sale I'd be surprised if he managed to recoup his investment. 

[Red-Robbo]

He can buy my 0.001% holding for a cool million   

[Lanterne Rouge]

17 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

He can buy my 0.001% holding for a cool million   

I`ll chip in my 0.0000001% and we can really hold him to ransom.

[Mr Popodopolous]

It is sign of commitment and stability, but also could be a sign of divestment- when clearing the decks for a takeover or external investment tidying the balance sheet is a must.

Plus it helps us to spend/absorb losses that go up to the max...£39m in 3 years (complicated via Covid) with the equity injections, £15m without...it means we can hit that £39m, obviously if the equity is between £1 and £24m in any given 3 year period then the Upper Loss limit for us will fall between £15m and £39m.

To put it in its simplest terms, in FFP terms if an owner injected say £10m in equity or other secure funding in a 3 year period, a club could make an FFP loss at this level of £25m..

In our case if we look at the accounting losses- that equity enables us to make a 3 year accounting loss of £54m...Covid has complicated it majorly but this is a starting point.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Maesknoll Red]

56 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

I`ll chip in my 0.0000001% and we can really hold him to ransom.

I can add my 0.000000001% to your and @Red-Robbo ‘s and we’re on our way to a takeover bid……

[ExiledAjax]

12 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It is sign of commitment and stability, but also could be a sign of divestment- when clearing the decks for a takeover or external investment tidying the balance sheet is a must.

Plus it helps us to spend/absorb losses that go up to the max...£39m in 3 years (complicated via Covid) with the equity injections, £15m without...it means we can hit that £39m, obviously if the equity is between £1 and £24m in any given 3 year period then the Upper Loss limit for us will fall between £15m and £39m.

To put it in its simplest terms, in FFP terms if an owner injected say £10m in equity or other secure funding in a 3 year period, a club could make an FFP loss at this level of £25m..

In our case if we look at the accounting losses- that equity enables us to make a 3 year accounting loss of £54m...Covid has complicated it majorly but this is a starting point.

He does it every year. It's a conversion of debt into equity. He likely has always held that debt via a convertible loan note - ie it would be converted at the point he sold or earlier if he wants to, so it doesn't really matter when it is converted. Honestly, it's really nothing to see here imo. It's done for accounting purposes and nothing else.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, ExiledAjax said:

He does it every year. It's a conversion of debt into equity. He likely has always held that debt via a convertible loan note - ie it would be converted at the point he sold or earlier if he wants to, so it doesn't really matter when it is converted. Honestly, it's really nothing to see here imo. It's done for accounting purposes and nothing else.

Of course- accounting purposes too as you say an annual event in recent times, it's regular but it also enables us to spend to the max FFP wise.

Convertible loan note?

[KegCity]

Using his own money to pay off debts owed to himself. Fair play.

[ExiledAjax]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Of course- accounting purposes too as you say an annual event in recent times, it's regular but it also enables us to spend to the max FFP wise.

Convertible loan note?

A convertible loan note is way of recording a loan made to a company. In return the lender is not only owed the loan, but are also given a "Note" that gives the holder the right to convert that loan into equity at a fixed price per share. The "Note" can usually be sold or given to someone else as well. It's essentially a way for a company to get cash through a debt instrument, but simultaneously the lender gets the next best thing to shares, and knows that when they convert (usually when a company is sold) they'll get the shares for price X, then immediately sell them for price Y, so they usually make money. It might not be how SL does it - you can convert any debt into equity if you like - but it's possibly how it is done as it anticipates a conversion at some point.

[NcnsBcfc]

9 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

A convertible loan note is way of recording a loan made to a company. In return the lender is not only owed the loan, but are also given a "Note" that gives the holder the right to convert that loan into equity at a fixed price per share. The "Note" can usually be sold or given to someone else as well. It's essentially a way for a company to get cash through a debt instrument, but simultaneously the lender gets the next best thing to shares, and knows that when they convert (usually when a company is sold) they'll get the shares for price X, then immediately sell them for price Y, so they usually make money. It might not be how SL does it - you can convert any debt into equity if you like - but it's possibly how it is done as it anticipates a conversion at some point.

@ExiledAjax Many thanks for this.

Do you know what the loan repayments to Lansdown shown on our accounts covers then?

[petehinton]

I’ve always found thanking him for this stuff odd. I’m not doubting how much money he’s put in, and how lucky we are to not have an owner like Morris. 
 

But…. is him clearing his own mess, no? He owns the club, he signs everything off, so this is surely is that should be expected. No one forced him to buy the club, this is part of the gig. It’s like he’s doing us a favour or something 

[ExiledAjax]

4 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

@ExiledAjax Many thanks for this.

Do you know what the loan repayments to Lansdown shown on our accounts covers then?

You could still have repayments under a CLN.

Edited June 2, 2022 by ExiledAjax

[grifty]

24 minutes ago, petehinton said:

I’ve always found thanking him for this stuff odd. I’m not doubting how much money he’s put in, and how lucky we are to not have an owner like Morris. 
 

But…. is him clearing his own mess, no? He owns the club, he signs everything off, so this is surely is that should be expected. No one forced him to buy the club, this is part of the gig. It’s like he’s doing us a favour or something 

So if you lend a mate a tenner, when he pays it back to you snatch it off him or say thanks?

[MigratedRobin]

When you're worth £1.8 Bn these things are not that difficult to do.

[petehinton]

16 minutes ago, grifty said:

So if you lend a mate a tenner, when he pays it back to you snatch it off him or say thanks?

I say thanks, but he owed me it….so I’m not gonna call him the greatest friend in history for paying me back

[NcnsBcfc]

39 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

You could still have repayments under a CLN.

So you end up loaning yourself money, then charging interest back from the club to repay your own investment?

This is why the rich are rich.......

[And Its Smith]

1 hour ago, petehinton said:

I’ve always found thanking him for this stuff odd. I’m not doubting how much money he’s put in, and how lucky we are to not have an owner like Morris. 
 

But…. is him clearing his own mess, no? He owns the club, he signs everything off, so this is surely is that should be expected. No one forced him to buy the club, this is part of the gig. It’s like he’s doing us a favour or something 

Personally I think we can only judge his entire reign when he sells as it will depend how and when he sells. 

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, MigratedRobin said:

When you're worth £1.8 Bn these things are not that difficult to do.

PeteHinton is worth £1.8 billion ? 

[REDOXO]

5 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

He can buy my 0.001% holding for a cool million   

I like SL but it will be a cold day in hell he gets my 59 shares!

[Pezo]

4 hours ago, KegCity said:

Using his own money to pay off debts owed to himself. Fair play.

To complete the circle - caused by his appointments.

[Mr Popodopolous]

The other side of the coin of course, yes some of this is clearing up his own errors, perhaps a reasonable chunk of it.

However a counterfactual is that if not for SL or an equally wealthy owner- scenario 1 is that we would have to run breakeven- could we sustain a Championship club at running breakeven? Doubt it- not without being a yoyo club with Parachutes etc.

Secondly, yes it can be taken for granted but if he put no equity in all we would as I said need to spend not in excess of £15m FFP losses in 3 years- again could we sustain a Championship club on that? Well it is possible but challenging.

Of course this isn't City specific, can go for many clubs.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Merrick's Marvels]

11 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The other side of the coin of course, yes some of this is clearing up his own errors, perhaps a reasonable chunk of it.

However a counterfactual is that if not for SL or an equally wealthy owner- scenario 1 is that we would have to run breakeven- could we sustain a Championship club at running breakeven? Doubt it- not without being a yoyo club with Parachutes etc.

Secondly, yes it can be taken for granted but if he put no equity in all we would as I said need to spend not in excess of £15m FFP losses in 3 years- again could we sustain a Championship club on that? Well it is possible but challenging.

Of course this isn't City specific, can go for many clubs.

But he knows all that. In fact he has done since the day he joined the Board, when we were a loss making League 1 side never mind a Championship one. Didn't stop him deciding to accept the position of Chairman or deciding to increase his stake to that of majority shareholder.

He's had his eyes wide open all along. 

[steviestevieneville]

4 hours ago, petehinton said:

I’ve always found thanking him for this stuff odd. I’m not doubting how much money he’s put in, and how lucky we are to not have an owner like Morris. 
 

But…. is him clearing his own mess, no? He owns the club, he signs everything off, so this is surely is that should be expected. No one forced him to buy the club, this is part of the gig. It’s like he’s doing us a favour or something 

This has always been my opinion . Plus , if he’d made better footballing decisions or taken better footballing advice , he wouldn’t have spent so much in the first place . 

[Leveller]

36 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

I like SL but it will be a cold day in hell he gets my 59 shares!

Yes, he can’t force you to sell up. But if he sells to someone else, they could!

[Lewisdabaron]

His naivety about running a football club has got the club into debt we’re in.

Any other club could have spent the same as he has done & i bet they would been in the prem for at least 1 season…  & had parachute payments.

He only has himself to blame for his debts. 

[sugarwray]

Accounting made simple. Equity is a good thing to have. It represents the amount by which assets exceed liabilities. Debt is the opposite, it is a liability to be repaid at a future date. Depending on the interest rate the club can find itself in a debt trap (think Man United) that enriches the owners. SL owns the club because he cares about it with a passion. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Be careful what you wish for. Owners that convert debt to equity are fine by me.

 

 

 

 

[REDOXO]

30 minutes ago, Leveller said:

Yes, he can’t force you to sell up. But if he sells to someone else, they could!

Oh yes. Had a long conversation with his people about that. If I’m legally forced to then so be it. Otherwise not a chance. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The other side of the coin of course, yes some of this is clearing up his own errors, perhaps a reasonable chunk of it.

However a counterfactual is that if not for SL or an equally wealthy owner- scenario 1 is that we would have to run breakeven- could we sustain a Championship club at running breakeven? Doubt it- not without being a yoyo club with Parachutes etc.

Secondly, yes it can be taken for granted but if he put no equity in all we would as I said need to spend not in excess of £15m FFP losses in 3 years- again could we sustain a Championship club on that? Well it is possible but challenging.

Of course this isn't City specific, can go for many clubs.

I think it’s possible to have revenues of £35m (2019 levels) and compete on a cost base of £35m too (wages, amortisation and other costs). Other clubs in this division have budgets lower or around this figure.

Transfer fee and wage strategy dictates.

£14m amortisation peak is not sustainable, now being managed at half of that (£6-7m), and by 23/24 projection is less than £1m.  That will of course change if we extend the likes of Kalas and Massengo, but even then we are talking £3m max, £11m less than peak!!

So it’s doable.

[NcnsBcfc]

34 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Oh yes. Had a long conversation with his people about that. If I’m legally forced to then so be it. Otherwise not a chance. 

I've kept my shares as well.

But i'm pretty sure when Pula sports wrote to all the shareholders a while ago; it was with a one off offer of £10 per share on some sort of compulsory purchase order thing?

I'll have to dig out the paperwork, but if we didn't sell, the club would still consider the shares worthless; and donate £10 to a charity, or the academy (or something like that).

So I'm not sure technically our shares are actually worth anything anymore.

Still the certificate looks nice in a frame of course.

[Harry]

Preparing to sell? 

[Barrs Court Red]

10 minutes ago, Harry said:

Preparing to sell? 

Unless I’ve missed it, he’s been extremely quiet so it does seem like things are moving behind the scenes. 

[Harry]

Just now, Barrs Court Red said:

Unless I’ve missed it, he’s been extremely quiet so it does seem like things are moving behind the scenes. 

It’s well known that he’s looking for a buyer. The less amount of debt there is at the time of sale, I guess the more value he can sell it for? Don’t know? 

[Barrs Court Red]

2 minutes ago, Harry said:

It’s well known that he’s looking for a buyer. The less amount of debt there is at the time of sale, I guess the more value he can sell it for? Don’t know? 

I guess. Will be very interesting to find out what is actually up for grabs. 

[Wiltshire robin]

2 hours ago, Lewisdabaron said:

His naivety about running a football club has got the club into debt we’re in.

Any other club could have spent the same as he has done & i bet they would been in the prem for at least 1 season…  & had parachute payments.

He only has himself to blame for his debts. 

You just hit the nail on the head , although a lot still worship him like he’s a religion.

[The Constant Rabbit]

3 hours ago, Barrs Court Red said:

I guess. Will be very interesting to find out what is actually up for grabs. 

The million dollar question.

It sure as hell won't be the old brownsite land that will be worth a fortune in new housing. Purchased for a 'new stadium'.

I still don't understand why so many people cannot separate the 'sport' from the 'real estate'

A loss on the sporting side will be dwarfed by profit on the housing / office side.

I'm sure some people still think he's building an indoor centre for Basketball only...........

[Redstoke]

13 hours ago, Jerseybean said:

SL has, yet again, put his hand in his pocket and purchased £15.3 m worth of shares…..https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/bristol-city-owner-steve-lansdown-7158256

 

Hero.

[Major Isewater]

9 hours ago, Harry said:

Preparing to sell? 

Pete Hinton ?

[pongo88]

13 hours ago, Leveller said:

Yes, he can’t force you to sell up. But if he sells to someone else, they could!

I’ve got some shares but the club doesn’t know how to contact me. Don’t tell him @Leveller! 

[Port Said Red]

I always said that if I won the lotto or euromillions I would think about investing in the club.

I won on Wednesday, but my wife assures me that she knows exactly how to spend that £30.

[REDOXO]

13 hours ago, NcnsBcfc said:

I've kept my shares as well.

But i'm pretty sure when Pula sports wrote to all the shareholders a while ago; it was with a one off offer of £10 per share on some sort of compulsory purchase order thing?

I'll have to dig out the paperwork, but if we didn't sell, the club would still consider the shares worthless; and donate £10 to a charity, or the academy (or something like that).

So I'm not sure technically our shares are actually worth anything anymore.

Still the certificate looks nice in a frame of course.

Their people told me it was not a forced sale/purchase, if that is not true I’ll be surprised. 

[Antman]

21 hours ago, Jerseybean said:

SL has, yet again, put his hand in his pocket and purchased £15.3 m worth of shares…..https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/bristol-city-owner-steve-lansdown-7158256

 

and we go round again.

Sl is bailing out the losses he has created entirely by himself over a significant period of time.

He has been at the helm solely, Having squeezed out all other shareholders and effectively removed a functioning board,  so it's his decision making that has taken us into debt (Covid circumstance withstanding)

Whilst it's great (?) to have what appears to be a benevolant owner, lets not  all tug our forelocks at this largesse too much

 

[Antman]

20 hours ago, Maesknoll Red said:

I can add my 0.000000001% to your and @Red-Robbo ‘s and we’re on our way to a takeover bid……

i'm in - lets get this rock rolling......

[Lanterne Rouge]

36 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I always said that if I won the lotto or euromillions I would think about investing in the club.

I won on Wednesday, but my wife assures me that she knows exactly how to spend that £30.

I`ve often thought that investing your winnings in BCFC would be far too stressful a thing to so I would buy the s*gs and thoroughly enjoy running them into the ground. Pay £2m for some awful players, anyone who shows a bit of promise gets shunted off to FGR on a free - the possibilities are endless and imagine the kudos of being the one person that put them out of business.

[Beni71]

21 hours ago, petehinton said:

I’ve always found thanking him for this stuff odd. I’m not doubting how much money he’s put in, and how lucky we are to not have an owner like Morris. 
 

But…. is him clearing his own mess, no? He owns the club, he signs everything off, so this is surely is that should be expected. No one forced him to buy the club, this is part of the gig. It’s like he’s doing us a favour or something 

Agreed we are lucky SL not like Morris.

When you say “mess” do you mean ambition that didn’t play out as expected?

[REDOXO]

16 minutes ago, Antman said:

and we go round again.

Sl is bailing out the losses he has created entirely by himself over a significant period of time.

He has been at the helm solely, Having squeezed out all other shareholders and effectively removed a functioning board,  so it's his decision making that has taken us into debt (Covid circumstance withstanding)

Whilst it's great (?) to have what appears to be a benevolant owner, lets not  all tug our forelocks at this largesse too much

 

Yes there is something in what you say, however he is bank rolling his previous decisions unlike Mel Morris and many many others. 

[Glen hump]

15 hours ago, Harry said:

Preparing to sell? 

Think he’s been preparing to sell for a while.

[chinapig]

46 minutes ago, Beni71 said:

When you say “mess” do you mean ambition that didn’t play out as expected?

Alternatively, giving a charlatan of a Chief Executive total freedom to spend as much as he fancied and massively increase the wage bill while leaving us with a bloated and unbalanced squad.

This from an owner who preaches sustainability and has always been in favour of a wage cap. So by his own standards it is rather a mess.

[DT The Optimist]

16 hours ago, Harry said:

Preparing to sell? 

Or making to more attractive for other investors to join?

I cannot ever see the Lansdown's giving up entirely,  & I do not really grasp the finer details of finances and wheeler dealings.. If another 'Investor' is found and put in say £30M for example would that be above and not counted in FFP.

 I for one am  enjoying the Transfer window activity and watching the playing side develop.

Try not to get too involved in  understanding the financial side of things..leave that to better qualified people.  All I want to know is hat we are not going to be docked points !

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, DT The Optimist said:

I cannot ever see the Lansdown's giving up entirely,  & I do not really grasp the finer details of finances and wheeler dealings.. If another 'Investor' is found and put in say £30M for example would that be above and not counted in FFP.

Would count towards the overall number I believe, the overall pot...equity limits remain much the same, how could it be classed as revenue otherwise? Perhaps there is a way but unsure if it is compatible with FFP regs.

Put another way, if SL had put in say £10m in a 3 year period equity wise and £14m had been put in by a fresh investor yes it makes it up to £24m...but it doesn't extend a club's financial leeway, headroom afaik.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

17 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I think it’s possible to have revenues of £35m (2019 levels) and compete on a cost base of £35m too (wages, amortisation and other costs). Other clubs in this division have budgets lower or around this figure.

Transfer fee and wage strategy dictates.

£14m amortisation peak is not sustainable, now being managed at half of that (£6-7m), and by 23/24 projection is less than £1m.  That will of course change if we extend the likes of Kalas and Massengo, but even then we are talking £3m max, £11m less than peak!!

So it’s doable.

This is fair, good point. Think it can be done but also think what with the Parachute issue which will hopefully be resolved sooner rather than later, the biggest budget within the rules/sustainability is needed to give us the best chance of competing.

Barnsley and Luton are two excellent examples- but one lost the talisman, manager and CEO the following season- and went down- the second? Time will tell.

I totally agree that the amortisation and wages got out of hand! Interesting to know what NP could have done with the budget that LJ was fortunate enough to be afforded- and indeed which players he would have got more out of.

[sh1t_ref_again]

2 hours ago, Beni71 said:

Agreed we are lucky SL not like Morris.

When you say “mess” do you mean ambition that didn’t play out as expected?

Yeah but if you read OTIB, with so many experts not even privy to a small part of the facts, would have made different decisions in hindsight and been in the prem making millions

Easy this football owning lark, cant understand why every clubs not in the prem

[Beni71]

7 hours ago, chinapig said:

Alternatively, giving a charlatan of a Chief Executive total freedom to spend as much as he fancied and massively increase the wage bill while leaving us with a bloated and unbalanced squad.

This from an owner who preaches sustainability and has always been in favour of a wage cap. So by his own standards it is rather a mess.

Don’t disagree with any of that and the board never challenged or held Ashton to account and that has SLs finger prints all over it.

But my point is that you can’t question SLs ambition towards the club.
 

But it does make me roll my eyes when you see some fans question him given his level of investment/commitment to the club and city. Oh and yes he’s made some mistakes, it’s almost like he’s human……

[Harry]

8 hours ago, Glen hump said:

Think he’s been preparing to sell for a while.

Indeed. But I think it’s been a 5-set tennis match and this move signifies we’re entering the final set. 

[Bristol Oil Services]

7 minutes ago, Harry said:

Indeed. But I think it’s been a 5-set tennis match and this move signifies we’re entering the final set. 

Maybe. But it's starting to rain, and there's no roof.

[Harry]

2 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

Maybe. But it's starting to rain, and there's no roof.

You cannot be serious!! 

[Red-Robbo]

On 02/06/2022 at 20:17, NcnsBcfc said:

I've kept my shares as well.

But i'm pretty sure when Pula sports wrote to all the shareholders a while ago; it was with a one off offer of £10 per share on some sort of compulsory purchase order thing?

I'll have to dig out the paperwork, but if we didn't sell, the club would still consider the shares worthless; and donate £10 to a charity, or the academy (or something like that).

So I'm not sure technically our shares are actually worth anything anymore.

Still the certificate looks nice in a frame of course.

 

They are effectively worthless - he owns 97% of the club - but I don't think you can "cancel" shares legitimately purchased. 

[Barrs Court Red]

On 03/06/2022 at 20:00, Beni71 said:

 

But my point is that you can’t question SLs ambition towards the club.
 

 

Oh you absolutely can. Doing so doesn’t mean he’s done everything wrong, and a lot of it comes with the benefit of hindsight.