Davefevs Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 @ExiledAjax 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLRed Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 What does this mean? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cidered abroad Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 1 minute ago, BLRed said: What does this mean? Either SL is putting money in to cover losses OR someone else is contributing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 1 minute ago, BLRed said: What does this mean? Good question. Steve to be able to buy yet more shares? External investor to buy shares? Condensed version: I have no idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) From an FFP perspective I don't see how it would change anything- equity ratio, Upper vs Lower limit. We already spend to that level so. That aside, could mean external investment? Again though that would not increase the £39m cap. Edit: Kieran Maguire mentions one investor in mind. Edited June 13, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: From an FFP perspective I don't see how it would change anything- equity ratio, Upper vs Lower limit. We already spend to that level so. That aside, could mean external investment? Again though that would not increase the £39m cap. Edit: Kieran Maguire mentions one investor in mind. That nice Mr Musk perhaps ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Edit: Kieran Maguire mentions one investor in mind. As long as their money isn't stuck in a European clearing bank awaiting money laundering checks. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Major Isewater said: That nice Mr Musk perhaps ? I'm whooshing myself a bit here but... Again doesn't make a difference...equity limits are equity limits- equity does not constitute fresh revenue etc. Edited June 13, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View from the Dolman Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 I think we need to see the resolution to understand this. The existing articles of association of Bristol City Football Club Ltd say that there is no limit on Share Capital so it would seem difficult that "Authorised share cap of the company be increased by the creation of shares". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 11 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said: I think we need to see the resolution to understand this. But that can't be allowed - think of the rampant speculation that is otherwise possible! 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 28 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: From an FFP perspective I don't see how it would change anything- equity ratio, Upper vs Lower limit. We already spend to that level so. That aside, could mean external investment? Again though that would not increase the £39m cap. Edit: Kieran Maguire mentions one investor in mind. Mel Morris? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyderInACan Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 Just now, downendcity said: Mel Morris? At least we'd have two stadiums then 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Geoff Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 Is something imminent ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 28 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: I'm whooshing myself a bit here but... Again doesn't make a difference...equity limits are equity limits- equity does not constitute fresh revenue etc. Not in the short term, but a spread of the risk on the football side might allow SL to push on with the ground development which in turn will increase revenues. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 4 minutes ago, Port Said Red said: Not in the short term, but a spread of the risk on the football side might allow SL to push on with the ground development which in turn will increase revenues. Oh yeah for sure, in medium to long term it can definitely help. I was thinking just of the here and now, this summer/coming season. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 1 hour ago, BLRed said: What does this mean? Won't know for certain until the docs come through on CH. Although the sharenissue to SL last month suggests these shares are for someone else... Cheers @Davefevs I saw my alert email from CH but hadn't read it yet. 49 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said: I think we need to see the resolution to understand this. The existing articles of association of Bristol City Football Club Ltd say that there is no limit on Share Capital so it would seem difficult that "Authorised share cap of the company be increased by the creation of shares". And it looks like that's exactly what's happened. Resolutions - Resolution of allotment of securitiesAuthorised share cap of the company be increased by the creation of shares. 31/05/2022. Note the effective date of this issue of shared is one day prior to SLs capitalisation of debt on 1 June 2022. @Mr Popodopolous @Davefevs any acocunting reason why you'd do apossible investment effective on 31 May? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 Linked to the new CFO (or whatever his title is)...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 Worth saying as well that this is at the Football Club level not Holdco level. So that means that anyone taking shares here will have zero control or derive zero benefit from Ashton Gate Ltd. 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted June 13, 2022 Author Share Posted June 13, 2022 3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said: Won't know for certain until the docs come through on CH. Although the sharenissue to SL last month suggests these shares are for someone else... Cheers @Davefevs I saw my alert email from CH but hadn't read it yet. And it looks like that's exactly what's happened. Resolutions - Resolution of allotment of securitiesAuthorised share cap of the company be increased by the creation of shares. 31/05/2022. Note the effective date of this issue of shared is one day prior to SLs capitalisation of debt on 1 June 2022. @Mr Popodopolous @Davefevs any acocunting reason why you'd do apossible investment effective on 31 May? The only P&S consideration is the commitment to cover losses so that higher threshold (£39m) is applicable rather than lower (£15m)…but other than that no idea, other than housekeeping??? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 10 minutes ago, Davefevs said: The only P&S consideration is the commitment to cover losses so that higher threshold (£39m) is applicable rather than lower (£15m)…but other than that no idea, other than housekeeping??? There is presumably a reason. 31 May is a significant date in football and its too specific to be random imo. Shares have been issued on that day for a reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cidered abroad Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said: There is presumably a reason. 31 May is a significant date in football and its too specific to be random imo. Shares have been issued on that day for a reason. Would be grateful if you'd clarify why 31/5 is so important @ExiledAjax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 8 minutes ago, cidered abroad said: Would be grateful if you'd clarify why 31/5 is so important @ExiledAjax Football financial year?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, The Bard said: Football financial year?? For us and a host of clubs- yes. For a range of others it goes to 30th June and for a couple it's 31st July. Although as @ExiledAjax did mention, it's exclusive to the club only so BCHL and AGL won't be included in that. Edited June 13, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 31 minutes ago, cidered abroad said: Would be grateful if you'd clarify why 31/5 is so important @ExiledAjax As Pop says, it's our financial year end, and is for many clubs as well. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merrick's Marvels Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 Suspect this has nothing to do with our short term FFP position (as others have said - it can't) and is most likely about the bigger picture going forward in the medium/long term. Perhaps it's linked to Gregor's mystery interview! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 I'll add to the conspiracy theories - it makes more sense if it was for Bristol City Holdings Ltd, which has an issued share capital many times the authorised share capital of £10 million 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 1 minute ago, Hxj said: I'll add to the conspiracy theories - it makes more sense if it was for Bristol City Holdings Ltd, which has an issued share capital many times the authorised share capital of £10 million We may yet see a filing for Holdco as well of course. CH make no promise to upload filings made or update group companies simultaneously. 11 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said: Perhaps it's linked to Gregor's mystery interview! This could make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC Rich Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 Genuine questions Could we issue shares to top up salary for someone? I presume thats not possible for players but if we wanted someone behind the scenes (head of recruitment for example) would it be allowed? Would that be a FFP work around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View from the Dolman Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Hxj said: I'll add to the conspiracy theories - it makes more sense if it was for Bristol City Holdings Ltd, which has an issued share capital many times the authorised share capital of £10 million It was increased to £15 million by a resolution in November 2008 and then in a filing from December 2008, the adopted Articles of Association again moved to there being no upper limit - as per 4.2 below: Section 2 of the Companies Act 1985 was repealed via the Companies Act 2006 and took effect from October 2009. Edited June 13, 2022 by View from the Dolman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyderInACan Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 10 minutes ago, BCFC Richard said: Genuine questions Could we issue shares to top up salary for someone? I presume thats not possible for players but if we wanted someone behind the scenes (head of recruitment for example) would it be allowed? Would that be a FFP work around. That very much sounds like cheating the system to me 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC Rich Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 1 minute ago, CyderInACan said: That very much sounds like cheating the system to me It might well be. I know shares are huge part of recruitment in the tech industry out here, just wondered if that was possible within FFP. You are probably right though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 14 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said: the adopted Articles of Association again moved to there being no upper limit Unfortunately the link goes to Articles with a £15 million cap .... the conspiracy widens .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View from the Dolman Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 1 minute ago, Hxj said: Unfortunately the link goes to Articles with a £15 million cap .... the conspiracy widens .... Scroll to the bottom of page 9 of the PDF (showing as page 8 on the page itself). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said: Scroll to the bottom of page 9 of the PDF (showing as page 8 on the page itself). This one? Edited June 13, 2022 by Hxj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) 36 minutes ago, BCFC Richard said: Genuine questions Could we issue shares to top up salary for someone? I presume thats not possible for players but if we wanted someone behind the scenes (head of recruitment for example) would it be allowed? Would that be a FFP work around. All wages would be included in the total FFP package save for those excluded for the regular excluded areas- shares would be a form of remuneration surely? Interesting angle though, maybe not impossible although gaming the system for sure and and doubt it'd be accepted. Edited June 13, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merrick's Marvels Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 29 minutes ago, BCFC Richard said: Genuine questions Could we issue shares to top up salary for someone? I presume thats not possible for players but if we wanted someone behind the scenes (head of recruitment for example) would it be allowed? Would that be a FFP work around. That's it! Every time our new CEO doesn't spunk money on a gratuitous signing and every time he doesn't do a meme interview, he gets a whopping bonus! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View from the Dolman Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 17 minutes ago, Hxj said: This one? Yes, that one - section 4.2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 I know - I was laughing at myself ... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC Rich Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 21 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: All wages would be included in the total FFP package save for those excluded for the regular excluded areas- shares would be a form of remuneration surely? Interesting angle though, maybe not impossible although gaming the system for sure and and doubt it'd be accepted. Would a ESPP scheme be gaming the system when it is so commonly used? Does FFP restrict this? I would definitely understand if it does, but this is something that defiantly happens in most businesses here. I admit this area is not one I know a huge amount about (so I may be sounding really stupid! ). However if these shares where used in that kind of scheme, would that be a way of tempting high calibre staff without actual financial outlay? technically the employee is buying the shares. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 4 minutes ago, BCFC Richard said: would that be a way of tempting high calibre staff without actual financial outlay? technically the employee is buying the shares. At least the share valuation issues would be easy - Nil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyderInACan Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 5 minutes ago, BCFC Richard said: Would a ESPP scheme be gaming the system when it is so commonly used? Does FFP restrict this? I would definitely understand if it does, but this is something that defiantly happens in most businesses here. I can just imagine the conversation: "Yes you ARE having these shares" 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) 16 minutes ago, BCFC Richard said: Would a ESPP scheme be gaming the system when it is so commonly used? Does FFP restrict this? I would definitely understand if it does, but this is something that defiantly happens in most businesses here. I admit this area is not one I know a huge amount about (so I may be sounding really stupid! ). However if these shares where used in that kind of scheme, would that be a way of tempting high calibre staff without actual financial outlay? technically the employee is buying the shares. Certainly an interesting concept, one I'd never thought of before. EFL do have powers though to compel a club to operate within a set budget for the purposes of solvency but also FFP so that could be a way to pull rank on any schemes such as that to get more cash or free things up- presumably they would demand full disclosure etc if doubts arose. Say for example our FFP headroom allowed us to go for £10m in spending this summer and that was inclusive of £15m in headroom freed up by shares whereas without it we'd have to raise £5m to comply- I assume the budgetary lever might be applied for FFP purposes. Example- Derby wanted to include the Revaluation Reserve in their accounts in summer 2021 which would have resolved to 2021 but left a major issue probably to 2022...but the EFL said no. I wonder if negotiations between the two were pertaining to that issue as it was only July 19th 2021 that Derby were permitted to sign anyone at all ie "Drop this issue and we will exclude the FA Cup one appearance lot from Professional Standing regs". It is a genuinely interesting concept but I wonder if this regulation would negate a scheme like that. Quote 16.20. 1 to require the Club to submit, agree and adhere to a budget which shall include, but not be limited to, Transfer Fees, Compensation Fees, Loan Fees or subsequent payments which become due under the terms of any transfer, players' remuneration and fees payable to any Intermediary; 16.20. Edited June 13, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted June 13, 2022 Author Share Posted June 13, 2022 Thought I read somewhere (in rules,) that staff had to be paid using PAYE? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC Rich Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 9 minutes ago, CyderInACan said: I can just imagine the conversation: "Yes you ARE having these shares" Haha, good catch! Autocorrect on my phone can go to hello! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted June 13, 2022 Author Share Posted June 13, 2022 6 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Thought I read somewhere (in rules,) that staff had to be paid using PAYE? https://www.danielgeey.com/post/image-rights-in-uk-football-explained/ article is focussed on image rights, but does contain some useful info re PAYE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC Rich Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 3 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Thought I read somewhere (in rules,) that staff had to be paid using PAYE? As I said i'm not the most informed in these aread so, I'm not sure why i'm getting further into this! But heyho! I think employers used to be able to withhold PAYE on these schemes, as long as that was reported. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curr Avon Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 3 hours ago, Major Isewater said: That nice Mr Musk perhaps ? Smells familiar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cider11 Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said: All wages would be included in the total FFP package save for those excluded for the regular excluded areas- shares would be a form of remuneration surely? Interesting angle though, maybe not impossible although gaming the system for sure and and doubt it'd be accepted. Isn't the giving players shares in a business (sports club or another linked to a business the owner is involved with) what caused part of the problem for Saracens Rugby Club. In the Owner invested in business ventures or gave shares to the players in those businesses instead of paying them through the club. To get around their salary cap rules. So I'm sure would be similar within the world of football and the various FFP regs to stop that happening, however this is the EFL so might be a massive wide loophole they've left open. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) 46 minutes ago, cider11 said: Isn't the giving players shares in a business (sports club or another linked to a business the owner is involved with) what caused part of the problem for Saracens Rugby Club. In the Owner invested in business ventures or gave shares to the players in those businesses instead of paying them through the club. To get around their salary cap rules. So I'm sure would be similar within the world of football and the various FFP regs to stop that happening, however this is the EFL so might be a massive wide loophole they've left open. Good point- sounds not dissimilar. Although I think if we suddenly started spending outside what was expected, loophole or not I could see the EFL utilising the requirement to stick to x budget for FFP purposes- remember they can now impose Business Plans or Monitoring requirements as maybe appropriate ahead of a Projected Breach so pre-emptively to try and prevent...we could try but think it would be clamped down on quite quickly. I doubt it's for this anyway. We are still along with a host of clubs awaiting approval and guidance as to what we can and can't do I expect. Plus see the regulation 16.20 that I posted up the page- they are empowered to impose this for FFP compliance amongst other things where required. Edited June 13, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheltons Army Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 I can reveal a bit now Ive sold the car and the three piece and am about to become the Clubs new invester I will have us in the Champions League within 3 years Any requests , please let me know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarksRobin Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 11 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said: I can reveal a bit now Ive sold the car and the three piece and am about to become the Clubs new invester I will have us in the Champions League within 3 years Any requests , please let me know Can we have a new tannoy system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheltons Army Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) 1 minute ago, WarksRobin said: Can we have a new tannoy system? Sorry .... What was that ? ( Actually , Ive resolved the complaints about the Tannoy System only earlier today - I’ve banned Robbored from the stadium ) Edited June 13, 2022 by Sheltons Army 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILINFRANCE Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 7 hours ago, ExiledAjax said: Won't know for certain until the docs come through on CH. Although the sharenissue to SL last month suggests these shares are for someone else... Cheers @Davefevs I saw my alert email from CH but hadn't read it yet. And it looks like that's exactly what's happened. Resolutions - Resolution of allotment of securitiesAuthorised share cap of the company be increased by the creation of shares. 31/05/2022. Note the effective date of this issue of shared is one day prior to SLs capitalisation of debt on 1 June 2022. @Mr Popodopolous @Davefevs any acocunting reason why you'd do apossible investment effective on 31 May? Seems a bit aggressive . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILINFRANCE Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 5 hours ago, CyderInACan said: That very much sounds like cheating the system to me And, despite the frequent criticisms of SL, on here and elsewhere, I think we all know and accept this is something he does not do and would not even contemplate. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 The documents are in. All completely irrelevant to anything other than Holdings putting in the annual slug of cash/loan conversion following an annual slug of cash/loan conversion from Pula Sports etc. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leveller Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 15 hours ago, Sheltons Army said: I can reveal a bit now Ive sold the car and the three piece and am about to become the Clubs new invester I will have us in the Champions League within 3 years Any requests , please let me know Can you confirm that an “invester” is a bloke that wears a vest? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, Hxj said: The documents are in. All completely irrelevant to anything other than Holdings putting in the annual slug of cash/loan conversion following an annual slug of cash/loan conversion from Pula Sports etc. And answers my question as to why it was the day before the June 1 allotment...because it literally created the shares that were going to be allotted. Nothing exciting at all. Edited June 14, 2022 by ExiledAjax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyderInACan Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 12 hours ago, Leveller said: Can you confirm that an “invester” is a bloke that wears a vest? No, that’s a Knowle Vester 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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