Getting a lot harder to figure out our best XI

[LondonBristolian]

Three weeks into the season and I feel - in a good way - increasingly unsure what our best XI is. 

It seems NP is pretty set on the 3-4-1-2 formation, which I've no problem with at all but there's a lot of players making a positive case to be included. Start of the season, I'd have said Bentley, Wilson, Kalas, Naismith, Atkinson, Dasilva, Weimann, Semenyo, and Martin were obvious picks in our best XI and it was just a case of which two from Scott, James and Williams slotted into the midfield. Right now you could make a case for at least 15 or 16 players to deserve to be in the frame for a starting spot.

It's a nice problem to have but leaves a question. If everyone was fit, there are no more incomings or outgoings and we stick with the same formation, what do you currently  see as the first XI? 

[chinapig]

The idea of a first eleven is less and less the case these days, more so now with 5 subs available. Try predicting Man City's starting team for their next game for instance!

It may become more like Rugby Union with starters and finishers being equally important.

The best we can say might be that certain players are key to Nigel: Naismith, Scott, Weimann for instance but who else starts will depend on a variety of factors. I tend not to comment when the team is announced as I don't know what those factors are and will likely end up with egg on my face!

He might even choose a terribly weak midfield as he did last night.

Edited August 17, 2022 by chinapig

[Super]

With the likes of Conway and HNM playing they are so much more mobile than a Martin or a James or Williams. It makes a massive difference. I know there are probably some games especially away from home where a Scott and HNM may not be the best option.

[BCFCGav]

Good question. I think with a fully fit squad I'd go;

Bentley; Sykes, Kalas, Naismith, Atkinson, Pring; Scott, Williams; Weimann; Semenyo, Conway. 

But this does prove your point. Feels harsh leaving out Matty James, Chris Martin. On last nights showing HNM and Wells have loud shouts. And I really like the look of Kane Wilson. 

It's a very tidy squad we have currently. 

[OneTeamInBristol]

3 minutes ago, BCFCGav said:

Good question. I think with a fully fit squad I'd go;

Bentley; Sykes, Kalas, Naismith, Atkinson, Pring; Scott, Williams; Weimann; Semenyo, Conway. 

But this does prove your point. Feels harsh leaving out Matty James, Chris Martin. On last nights showing HNM and Wells have loud shouts. And I really like the look of Kane Wilson. 

It's a very tidy squad we have currently. 

I don't think it's harsh. He's been disappointing for me.

[tts_city]

Injuries and suspensions apart I dont think you should change a team thats won. So for the moment current selection is the best 11.

Edited August 17, 2022 by tts_city

[Bristol Oil Services]

7 minutes ago, tts_city said:

Injuries and suspensions apart I dont think you should change a team thats won.

Why not?

[Rob k]

7 minutes ago, tts_city said:

Injuries and suspensions apart I dont think you should change a team thats won.

I used to buy in to this but the game has moved on too much for this to now be the case 

[tts_city]

Just now, Bristol Oil Services said:

Why not?

Why would you ?

[Bristol Oil Services]

Just now, tts_city said:

Why would you ?

Did I say I would? 

[Sheltons Army]

17 minutes ago, BCFCGav said:

Good question. I think with a fully fit squad I'd go;

Bentley; Sykes, Kalas, Naismith, Atkinson, Pring; Scott, Williams; Weimann; Semenyo, Conway. 

But this does prove your point. Feels harsh leaving out Matty James, Chris Martin. On last nights showing HNM and Wells have loud shouts. And I really like the look of Kane Wilson. 

It's a very tidy squad we have currently. 

Very harsh , considering his performance last night

[chinapig]

15 minutes ago, tts_city said:

Injuries and suspensions apart I dont think you should change a team thats won. So for the moment current selection is the best 11.

Shall I tell Pep he's getting it wrong or will you?

[tts_city]

1 minute ago, chinapig said:

Shall I tell Pep he's getting it wrong or will you?

They tend to win most games and with such a large squad there would be a lot of discontent if he did not, If we ever get to that stage perhaps I would reconsider.

[BUTOR]

35 minutes ago, BCFCGav said:

Good question. I think with a fully fit squad I'd go;

Bentley; Sykes, Kalas, Naismith, Atkinson, Pring; Scott, Williams; Weimann; Semenyo, Conway. 

But this does prove your point. Feels harsh leaving out Matty James, Chris Martin. On last nights showing HNM and Wells have loud shouts. And I really like the look of Kane Wilson. 

It's a very tidy squad we have currently. 

Harsher to leave Dasilva without a mention after yesterday 

[chinapig]

Just now, tts_city said:

They tend to win most games and with such a large squad there would be a lot of discontent if he did not, If we ever get to that stage perhaps I would reconsider.

Pep has made it pretty clear he isn't much bothered if a player thinks he should be playing - ask Raheem Sterling. He doesn't select a side to keep particular players happy. Though he seems to over think selection in Champions League at times!

But following your logic if they win he shouldn't change the team. But he rotates anyway, which may depend on the opposition, what players are looking good or not in training, what each player's physical stats might be showing and so on.

Unless there are so many injuries Nigel can only pick certain players he does and will rotate, as managers commonly do these days. Though allowing for the above factors I reckon he just might go for an unchanged team for Cardiff.

[GrahamC]

7 minutes ago, chinapig said:

 

Unless there are so many injuries Nigel can only pick certain players he does and will rotate, as managers commonly do these days. Though allowing for the above factors I reckon he just might go for an unchanged team for Cardiff.

Brave to go into the game with 10 men, Sykes will be suspended

[chinapig]

4 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Brave to go into the game with 10 men, Sykes will be suspended

 Mere details, stop quibbling.

[LondonBristolian]

1 hour ago, chinapig said:

The idea of a first eleven is less and less the case these days, more so now with 5 subs available. Try predicting Man City's starting team for their next game for instance!

It may become more like Rugby Union with starters and finishers being equally important.

The best we can say might be that certain players are key to Nigel: Naismith, Scott, Weimann for instance but who else starts will depend on a variety of factors. I tend not to comment when the team is announced as I don't know what those factors are and will likely end up with egg on my face!

He might even choose a terribly weak midfield as he did last night.

I agree with you to an extent but, although you are right that the idea of a strong first XI is less relevant than it was a few years ago, I don't think it is irrelevant. You are right that teams rotate but even a team like Man City or Liverpool do broadly have a "first XI" that are likely to start top of the table games or key Champions League matches.

And I reckon that even the managers like Pep that will deviate from their strongest team depending on the tactics of the game still need to have a clear idea of the template they are deviating from. Pep will rotate his team but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a clear idea of the eleven players he is most likely to put on the field and why. And, if we had a major game - say a key relegation clash or play-off final - I think NP would have an idea in his head of what team would be too. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by LondonBristolian

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, chinapig said:

The idea of a first eleven is less and less the case these days, more so now with 5 subs available. Try predicting Man City's starting team for their next game for instance!

It may become more like Rugby Union with starters and finishers being equally important.

The best we can say might be that certain players are key to Nigel: Naismith, Scott, Weimann for instance but who else starts will depend on a variety of factors. I tend not to comment when the team is announced as I don't know what those factors are and will likely end up with egg on my face!

He might even choose a terribly weak midfield as he did last night.

Ta, saved me typing my usual diatribe about it being a squad game.

[BCFCGav]

1 hour ago, Bouncearoundtheground said:

Harsher to leave Dasilva without a mention after yesterday 

He was brilliant yesterday. I need to see it a few more times though. Don’t think he’s been bringing enough to the party of late - but I know he’s a talented lad and he’s got it in him. 

[LondonBristolian]

16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Ta, saved me typing my usual diatribe about it being a squad game.

Spoilsport!  

[chinapig]

25 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Ta, saved me typing my usual diatribe about it being a squad game.

Ctrl+C

Ctrl+V

[The Batman]

Good. Players must not be complacent in to thinking they're first choice.  Yes momentum can be built but the team builds that, not the individuals within it.  

End of the day, the only score that matters is what is printed in the paper the following morning.  We need to be better at managing games until the end.  

[ORANGE500]

2 hours ago, chinapig said:

Shall I tell Pep he's getting it wrong or will you?

No just tell him until he manages a team with a limited budget and not the richest in their particular league with all the best players he's completely overrated.

[Alessandro]

Glad that we've got some of these decisions to make, because the thing that concerns me most this season is not the quality of our players or manager - but the depth of the squad.

Martin or Wells.

Conway or Semenyo.

HNM or James.

Tanner or Sykes.

Dasilva or Pring

Whoever, whatever...... all these players will need to play their part at some stage as the inevitable injuries, suspensions, big late transfer bids even, start happening.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Alessandro

[The Bard]

From last season I could name Liverpool's first XI.  It played together a lot. What was Man City's?    Guardiola's policy of consistently churning the starting XI with 2 maybe 3 changes each game arguably made the difference.  Change was normal for them and meant that injuries / suspensions were easily dealt with. 

This is even more the case at our level, especially when the midweek league games kick in.  Seems to me that both Martin and Williams won't be starting 2 games in 4 days.  IMO it is best to proactively rotate rather than wait for injuries and be reactive.  A manager keeps more control that way.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

This is good because as well as injuries, suspensions, transfer bids as mentioned by @Alessandro quite simply healthy competition drives- or should drive- standards,

Knowing that if your level drops a bit there are proven and or in form players, or hungry players who will take your place...excellent problem to have.,

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, ORANGE500 said:

No just tell him until he manages a team with a limited budget and not the richest in their particular league with all the best players he's completely overrated.

None of which supports your argument that you should never change a winning team, arguably the opposite.

Your more general point is interesting though and is often made. I'm not mad keen on nation states owning clubs but we are where we are so:

How many people were saying that KDB (rejected by Chelsea and playing for Wolfsburg) was one of the best players in the world when City signed him? What about Bernardo Silva, Joao Cancelo and Ilkay Gundogan when they were signed? Aymeric Laporte (who couldn't get into the France squad and eventually chose Spain)?  How many English fans knew much about Ruben Dias? Is Kyle Walker even the best English right back? Haaland will likely become world class, Alvarez (their only other striker as the ones from the academy don't get much of a look in) is highly rated but untested.

So the best team but not necessarily all the best individuals perhaps. Meanwhile Man Utd have spent more than anybody since Ferguson retired so perhaps the quality of the manager is important after all?

[Rocking Red Cyril]

4 hours ago, chinapig said:

Pep has made it pretty clear he isn't much bothered if a player thinks he should be playing - ask Raheem Sterling. He doesn't select a side to keep particular players happy. Though he seems to over think selection in Champions League at times!

But following your logic if they win he shouldn't change the team. But he rotates anyway, which may depend on the opposition, what players are looking good or not in training, what each player's physical stats might be showing and so on.

Unless there are so many injuries Nigel can only pick certain players he does and will rotate, as managers commonly do these days. Though allowing for the above factors I reckon he just might go for an unchanged team for Cardiff.

Yes I agree, unchanged for Cardiff, who in for Sykes ?

[chinapig]

1 minute ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

Yes I agree, unchanged for Cardiff, who in for Sykes ?

Wilson is my preference but Tanner is fine by me too.  Not Scott though!

[Johnr1986]

 I would go with this what are people thoughts

 

                   Bentley 

        Kalas  Naismith  Atkinson  

Wilson  Massengo  Williams  Dasilva

                         Scott 

            Wells             Weimann 

 

 

 

 

 

[Murraysrightplum]

There’s a difference between not knowing who’s your best 11 is because they’re all playing shit and not knowing who to start games because people are in form. If Nige is in the latter camp then I’m effing delighted 

[Davefevs]

4 hours ago, The Bard said:

From last season I could name Liverpool's first XI.  It played together a lot. What was Man City's?    Guardiola's policy of consistently churning the starting XI with 2 maybe 3 changes each game arguably made the difference.  Change was normal for them and meant that injuries / suspensions were easily dealt with. 

This is even more the case at our level, especially when the midweek league games kick in.  Seems to me that both Martin and Williams won't be starting 2 games in 4 days.  IMO it is best to proactively rotate rather than wait for injuries and be reactive.  A manager keeps more control that way.

 

This was the AC Milan approach many years ago (10-15 years ago, maybe longer - Maldini / Inzaghi era).  The first proper delve into Sports Science and predicting when load was too high / about to be too high.  The players bought into it, accepting they’d miss games when they felt fit themselves but the science predicting breakdown was near.

Back to City…if Joe Williams can play Saturday / bench / Saturday, etc, and be strong to start 60-70% of games and attain the right levels of perfromance in those, that is fine by me.

[Rocking Red Cyril]

3 hours ago, chinapig said:

Wilson is my preference but Tanner is fine by me too.  Not Scott though!

But Scott was very poor in midfield v Luton. He looks like he needs a rest to me playing with little break through summer not helped him I feel.

[Davefevs]

24 minutes ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

But Scott was very poor in midfield v Luton. He looks like he needs a rest to me playing with little break through summer not helped him I feel.

Whaaaaaaat?

[P'head Red]

5 hours ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

But Scott was very poor in midfield v Luton. He looks like he needs a rest to me playing with little break through summer not helped him I feel.

 

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Whaaaaaaat?

Whilst I didn't think he had his best game, I wouldn't go as far to say he was poor. Gave the ball away a few times, but was always looking to get the ball forward. Especially enjoyed his nut meg by the dolman in the second half. 

[Dr Balls]

12 hours ago, ORANGE500 said:

No just tell him until he manages a team with a limited budget and not the richest in their particular league with all the best players he's completely overrated.

Interesting point. Could Pep be successful on a very limited budget? A bit like F1 and the best car v best driver argument. Turns out Hamilton is still a great driver in a less good car but could Pep do as well as say Paul Warne at Rotherham on the budget that he has? I remain unconvinced. Klopp on the other hand started at Mainz, so perhaps he might have more chance.

[Aipearcey]

On 18/08/2022 at 06:08, P'head Red said:

 

Whilst I didn't think he had his best game, I wouldn't go as far to say he was poor. Gave the ball away a few times, but was always looking to get the ball forward. Especially enjoyed his nut meg by the dolman in the second half. 

Didn’t think he overly stood out good or bad on Tuesday but do think that he needs to improve his pass selection if/when he inevitably makes the step up. He excellent passing range but several times on Tuesday he went for the big floating Hollywood ball, when really the ball just needed playing and keep the play moving. But I’m sure with him it will all come in time.

[The Bard]

16 minutes ago, Aipearcey said:

Didn’t think he overly stood out good or bad on Tuesday but do think that he needs to improve his pass selection if/when he inevitably makes the step up. He excellent passing range but several times on Tuesday he went for the big floating Hollywood ball, when really the ball just needed playing and keep the play moving. But I’m sure with him it will all come in time.

Despite not having his best game, he still got an assist for a beautifully weighted pass to Wells.  Anyone scouting him would notice that he sees the picture before he receives the ball.  That is rare and if an 18 year old gets carried away with the occasional Hollywood pass then so be it.  His decision making will improve.    He's no Grealish.  More like a Pirlo if you ask me.   Pity he doesn't have the hair or the ice cold temperament.

[The Swan and Cemetery]

On 18/08/2022 at 00:28, Rocking Red Cyril said:

But Scott was very poor in midfield v Luton. He looks like he needs a rest to me playing with little break through summer not helped him I feel.

If that was him playing very poorly I’m excited to see him play averagely. Thought he played really well and centre mid, rather than attacking mid, looks a better long term fit for him. 

[Sheltons Army]

1 hour ago, The Swan and Cemetery said:

If that was him playing very poorly I’m excited to see him play averagely. Thought he played really well and centre mid, rather than attacking mid, looks a better long term fit for him. 

I think he’s the one player that can dictate the pace of the game for us and help us control games , the central pivot so to speak (as he did for England U19s in latter half of the Euros)

Big ask for such a young player At this level,  but certainly football wise he’s mature beyond his years and is capable of that role , especially as he gains experience