Norwich City away match thread

[And Its Smith]

1 minute ago, Dolman_Stand said:

You make a good point but to be honest the fact it was a competitive game  against a top opponent where we looked a threat throughout is such an improvement on the last couple of years that fans are quite rightly praising the performance. If we can tighten up at the back and cut the sloppy errors out we are a very good side.

I agree it was a good performance and worth praise but just can’t see it was excellent. 

[Ian M]

....and it's not as simple as saying Naismith needs to learn to boot it out. On some occasions he doesn't cede possession in a scenario where maybe if he was in a booting it out mindset we would lose that ball forward or pirouette, and then we'd miss out on several good counter attacks that is causing us to pressure teams into conceding themselves.

[2015]

1 minute ago, DaveF said:

Easiest way to identify someone who doesn't understand football is to ask if they think moving Naismith into midfield is the solution. 

The moment Naismith is moved is the moment our performances go down hill. He needs to stay in that position as it suits how we are wanting to play. It's working so far - 7th in the League. Seen stuff flying around like we will go down if we don't improve defensively, some really reactionary bizarre things to come out with. Glad i'm not them

[AppyDAZE]

1 minute ago, And Its Smith said:

Why would he boot it on the second one?  Would have been odd. First one was a miscontrol 

That wasn't a situation to control it. He was one on one.

Edited September 14, 2022 by AppyDAZE

[rednotblue]

1 hour ago, Countryfile said:

I’m sorry it’s not the defence it’s one player.

It's not. Yes Naismith has made errors but so have all the others 

Just because the error does not lead to a goal does not mean it is not an issue

[Sheltons Army]

Just now, AppyDAZE said:

No, but for their first, it wasn't brain surgery.

For balance - Did you notice how many times he controlled a ball during the game and put us on the front foot , instead of kicking it or heading it anywhere ?

[OldlandReddies]

We are a very, very good side in the making. Just a few subtle tweaks here and there and we'll be a top, top side. Boom .

[red colin]

Just now, Sheltons Army said:

 

so for the second goal in particular .......you want him to ‘hit it in the stands’  do you 

No not leave the defence wide open by moving forward and making a poor pass and leave a gaping hole. If klose was in behind a poor pass from midfield it would've been OK.

[The Swan and Cemetery]

For the 2nd there’s learning for all involved, but they haven’t been playing together for long. Vyner maybe could have stepped up quicker to avoid playing Pukki onside; when Naismith steps forward both Vyner and Atkinson, as well as Scott/James need to be alert to ensuring cover, etc etc. But Naismith playing safe or in a different position are choices that will take us backwards in my view. Top scorers and equal 3rd worst defence. Of course if would be great to concede fewer, but I wouldn’t change much, just keep working hard. 

[AppyDAZE]

2 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

For balance - Did you notice how many times he controlled a ball during the game and put us on the front foot , instead of kicking it or heading it anywhere ?

Duh, YES. This isn't the argument. For the first, it was a silly, silly, silly thing to try and "control" that ball in that position. I like the guy, you're preaching to the converted as to him playing for me. But he and only he got that wrong. Not the manager, not his team mates, not anyone else

Edited September 14, 2022 by AppyDAZE

[Sheltons Army]

HPC all week ......

 

Kal , we need you to get it down , and get us playing...............Oh .........except when you make an error....then you’re a ******* liability .......so only good decisions in the heat of the match .......ok 

[Dolman_Stand]

Just now, And Its Smith said:

I agree it was a good performance and worth praise but just can’t see it was excellent. 

Semantics? It was about as well as you can play in a losing effort and gives real optimism for the season. 

[Lew-T]

24 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

We need to stick with Naismith where he is for sure. A big part of how we play. People can’t have it both ways. If he cuts out the silly errors then what a player.  
 

Hope this post is okay @Lew-T !

Nah Dave
 

[Sheltons Army]

3 minutes ago, red colin said:

No not leave the defence wide open by moving forward and making a poor pass and leave a gaping hole. If klose was in behind a poor pass from midfield it would've been OK.

You still don’t get the basic concept  of the stark difference , despite people explaining , playing as a footballing centre half in a 3 against playing ‘in midfield’ do you ?

Fixated

[The Swan and Cemetery]

1 minute ago, Sheltons Army said:

HPC all week ......

 

Kal , we need you to get it down , and get us playing...............Oh .........except when you make an error....then you’re a ******* liability .......so only good decisions in the heat of the match .......ok 

He just needs to cut out errors, that’s relatively simple for a professional footballer. Checking stats he’s the only championship player to have made an error since 2008… I agree with your points above: when the ball comes towards him he needs to ask himself “am I about to make an error?”, if yes, smash it into the stands, if no, bring it out and play a gorgeous diagonal. Simple. 

[Dr Balls]

3 minutes ago, rednotblue said:

It's not. Yes Naismith has made errors but so have all the others 

Just because the error does not lead to a goal does not mean it is not an issue

The difference for Naismith is that he is playing as the last man and so just like when the goalie makes a mistake, when he slips up a goal is much more likely. There is little more fit error. Harsh but that is the risky downside to the way he is playing. In some games it’s not costing us, but in both the Sunderland defeat and tonight’s match the results have hinged on goals that he has given away.

[Loosey Boy]

Proud of the boys tonight - never gave up and entertaining to watch…..play like that and we will win many more games than we lose.

Another tough one on Saturday …… would take a point now which would set us up nicely for the international break

COYRs

[red colin]

Just now, Sheltons Army said:

You still don’t get the basic concept  of the stark difference , despite people explaining , playing as a footballing centre half in a 3 against playing ‘in midfield’ do you ?

Fixated

 

[DaveF]

7 minutes ago, red colin said:

No not leave the defence wide open by moving forward and making a poor pass and leave a gaping hole. If klose was in behind a poor pass from midfield it would've been OK.

Can we sack Pearson and put Col in charge please. 

[red colin]

Just now, red colin said:

 

Sorry I didn't realise your opinion was the only one.there are a lot of opinions on here that don't agree

 

[QuedgeRed]

A couple of defensive errors, but….

Outplayed 2nd in the league on their own turf with their parachute payments!

We could only dream of doing this the previous few or so seasons.

[red colin]

1 minute ago, DaveF said:

Can we sack Pearson and put Col in charge please. 

Well sadly I thought it was a forum of opinions obviously mine doesn't count despite being a supporter for most likely longer than you

 

[Jerseybean]

https://youtu.be/uvlCsIiL_II
NP post match well worth a listen 

 

[marcofisher]

Let’s move Naismith to midfield and replace him at the back with prime Emmanuel Eboue.

[Fammyfan]

I think it’s important to look at the bigger picture when it comes to Naismith. Yes it’s frustrating to see him making costly errors but how much stronger have we looked since we’ve brought him in? His leadership has been a major factor in the improvement we’ve seen.

The goals conceded per game has dropped from 1.67 last season to 1.55 this season. A demonstration of progression.

I hope fellow Reds can get behind him and support him, have faith in the coaching team that they will help to reduce the errors. If he does, we have an absolute gem.

[Sheltons Army]

2 minutes ago, The Swan and Cemetery said:

He just needs to cut out errors, that’s relatively simple for a professional footballer. Checking stats he’s the only championship player to have made an error since 2008… I agree with your points above: when the ball comes towards him he needs to ask himself “am I about to make an error?”, if yes, smash it into the stands, if no, bring it out and play a gorgeous diagonal. Simple. 

I’ll repeat , some of the best , if not the best football 8ve seen us play at this level yet people fixated on defensive errors 

The simple solution is keep all the football and attacking intent and don’t make errors

Or we could go back to the utter s**** of the last few years , or most the ‘football’ we’ve played at this level for the last 4/5 decades 

Iknew this would happen , we’ve made such an improvement that now people are changing the goalposts , losing the plot over ‘dropped points’  damaging our chance of promotion or top 6 apparently

My suggestion is to enjoy the most entertaining and excellent football , we’ve played at this level in many a year , Or decade , whilst fielding 3 of the best players we’ve produced in 50/60 years 

 

[marcofisher]

Naismith has not made any mistakes. He knows that players like Scott, Conway and Semenyo are too hot property to stay at Bristol City. He is keeping us just outside playoffs until after January where he’ll turn into prime Beckenbauer for our late title push. I won’t hear anything else. Some player.

[BUTOR]

To be pinning a parachute team back in their own half for much of the game and having them on the ropes in the way we did in injury time is remarkable considering where we’ve come from. Let’s not forget the calibre of team we played tonight or that they were forced to stifle themselves to stop us. We also showed different dimensions to our attacking play and that we are able to break sitting defences down. That gives me hope for the inevitable home games against lesser sides who will put 10 behind the ball.

This type of football won’t always tip in our favour. Most teams have a danger man but we won’t be playing 3 of the best strikers in the division in the same line up every week and that quality is what cost us tonight. We are still far better off maintaining this style of play. We can’t sit and defend leads or play for tight draws so what’s the point in setting up any other way? 

I’ve got a feeling we might be saying ‘if only we could cut out the silly errors’ all season but while we’re competitive and picking up wins it’s worth enjoying the ride, this is about as good as it gets as a Bristol City fan. There are sides to our game that are levels above anything we’ve seen for years. 

[Sheltons Army]

https://forum.pinkun.com/index.php?/forum/9-main-discussion-norwich-city/

 

 

Totally fearless. Lovely to see a side come and set up to attack and take risks.

As for the number 7, Alex Scott, so much came through him. Only 19 years old, I can think of 3 or 4 of our squad players that they could have in bulk for him alone. No chance, I suspect.

 

[Sheltons Army]

5 minutes ago, Bouncearoundtheground said:

To be pinning a parachute team back in their own half for much of the game and having them on the ropes in the way we did in injury time is remarkable considering where we’ve come from. Let’s not forget the calibre of team we played tonight or that they were forced to stifle themselves to stop us. We also showed different dimensions to our attacking play and that we are able to break sitting defences down. That gives me hope for the inevitable home games against lesser sides who will put 10 behind the ball.

This type of football won’t always tip in our favour. Most teams have a danger man but we won’t be playing 3 of the best strikers in the division in the same line up every week and that quality is what cost us tonight. We are still far better off maintaining this style of play. We can’t sit and defend leads or play for tight draws so what’s the point in setting up any other way? 

I’ve got a feeling we might be saying ‘if only we could cut out the silly errors’ all season but while we’re competitive and picking up wins it’s worth enjoying the ride, this is about as good as it gets as a Bristol City fan. There are sides to our game that are levels above anything we’ve seen for years. 

Good post

I also liked that not for the first time this season,

 

When we went 2-0 down undeservedly , and then when we got done 3-1 against the run of play , many , many , sides , especially City sides over the years , would have the stuffing knocked out of them on either occasion 

On both occasions we came back like a wounded terrier snapping and biting

Great attitude and strength of mind / belief

For me that’s so encouraging 

[AppyDAZE]

14 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

Naismith has not made any mistakes. He knows that players like Scott, Conway and Semenyo are too hot property to stay at Bristol City. He is keeping us just outside playoffs until after January where he’ll turn into prime Beckenbauer for our late title push. I won’t hear anything else. Some player.

May need editing

OK, I know what you're saying, There are lots of positives to his game. But FFS, do your basics and then to the Kaizer stuff.

Edited September 14, 2022 by AppyDAZE

[MarcusX]

40 minutes ago, AppyDAZE said:

Naismith to play, but what is so hard about knowing when you have to just boot the ******* ball?

If in doubt, BOOT, do your stuff the OTHER times, there are plenty of them.

A most odd start to any Bristol City career I can remember.

I'm a fan overall though. I'm sure it will all come good in time.

Disagree.

it’s not about knowing when to “boot it”. If he’d got his touch right for the first one (as he did several times after) it would have looked world class. He’s capable of it so it’s not out of his wheel house to try it.

His ability and composure (meaning we don’t just “boot it” like we used to) is what develops our play and puts us on the front foot.

What he needs to do is work on his concentration and make sure he actually gets the ball and doesn’t miss it! 

[AppyDAZE]

9 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

Disagree.

it’s not about knowing when to “boot it”. If he’d got his touch right for the first one (as he did several times after) it would have looked world class. He’s capable of it so it’s not out of his wheel house to try it.

His ability and composure (meaning we don’t just “boot it” like we used to) is what develops our play and puts us on the front foot.

What he needs to do is work on his concentration and make sure he actually gets the ball and doesn’t miss it! 

Agree to disagree.

Hey, I could be wrong, I only saw it once but I saw a bloke taking a chance when he was basically the last man.

Result, Norwich 1-0 when  they shouldn't be.

And not for the first time this season either.

So, not for me. Agree to disagree.

Edited September 14, 2022 by AppyDAZE

[FNQ]

19 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

I’ll repeat , some of the best , if not the best football 8ve seen us play at this level yet people fixated on defensive errors 

The simple solution is keep all the football and attacking intent and don’t make errors

Or we could go back to the utter s**** of the last few years , or most the ‘football’ we’ve played at this level for the last 4/5 decades 

Iknew this would happen , we’ve made such an improvement that now people are changing the goalposts , losing the plot over ‘dropped points’  damaging our chance of promotion or top 6 apparently

My suggestion is to enjoy the most entertaining and excellent football , we’ve played at this level in many a year , Or decade , whilst fielding 3 of the best players we’ve produced in 50/60 years 

 

100% agree, and no one will be hurting more than Kal tight now, bring on the Burnley game. And here’s another positive, how about Brian Tinnions pre match comments where in his opinion he considers Tommy Conway and Sam Bell to be at the same level! Just think about that for the future.. Giddyup!

[Sheltons Army]

8 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

Disagree.

it’s not about knowing when to “boot it”. If he’d got his touch right for the first one (as he did several times after) it would have looked world class. He’s capable of it so it’s not out of his wheel house to try it.

His ability and composure (meaning we don’t just “boot it” like we used to) is what develops our play and puts us on the front foot.

What he needs to do is work on his concentration and make sure he actually gets the ball and doesn’t miss it! 

Spot on

 

or we could just tell him ,

bring it down and play.......unless you’re going to make a mistake 

[RedRock]

Interesting comments from a positive Pearson.

One thing I really, really hope we’ve learnt from tonight is not to play a short corner in the 95th minute of a match you’re losing by a single goal, having brought Martin on and both central defenders in the box, plus the man you’re passing short to being marked.

That was the most ****** ridiculous, idiotic, brainless piece of football I’ve seen all Season. If you haven’t the balls to take responsibility to cross it into the box at moments like that, then give up the responsibility of taking corners. 

[Sheltons Army]

1 minute ago, RedRock said:

Interesting comments from a positive Pearson.

One thing I really, really hope we’ve learnt from tonight is not to play a short corner in the 95th minute of a match you’re losing by a single goal, having brought Martin on and both central defenders in the box, plus the man you’re passing short to being marked.

That was the most ****** ridiculous, idiotic, brainless piece of football I’ve seen all Season. If you haven’t the balls to take responsibility to cross it into the box at moments like that, then give up the responsibility of taking corners. 

I take it , the bit in bold is your comment , not his !

[JoeAman08]

12 minutes ago, AppyDAZE said:

Agree to disagree.

Hey, I could be wrong, I only saw it once but I saw a bloke taking a chance when he was basically the last man.

Result, Norwich 1-0 when  they shouldn't be.

And not for the forst time this season.

So, not for me. Agree to disagree.

I agree with you on this particular goal. Best case scenario is he brings it down with a defender on him where he can lose it too. It is an awkward one but just nod it away for a throw or something. His mistake against Sunderland is one I can live with. First tonight was just too much risk for basically no reward on the one time seeing it.
 

Again learning as first time in the role but 10 games in now needs to cut the mistakes out quite a bit now or going to cost us a good chance of playoffs. It is so open this year and it has all come together for us with keeping Scott Semenyo and Weimann and getting Conway to perform as he has. No problem finishing 12th with giving everything we have. But if we finish 12th with 7-8 games where mistakes have killed us then we’ll look back with some regret considering a large chunk of this squad could be gone next season. 

[RedRock]

2 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

I take it , the bit in bold is your comment , not his !

You know what Nige is like. I’ve just toned it down a bit for him so he doesn’t upset Jay too much. 

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, Spike said:

It's no woosh, he doesn't keep the line at all, it causes the back three disruptions. I'm not talking about stand out glaring errors, it's how he positions off of the play and how it affects others. Naismith was 100% playing a stupid pass but he played that pass because we're not giving more than one option, the reason I pulled Vyner up is because he was way away from Pukki but not playing to his line so the second Naismith messed up the pass Pukki was in a massive pocket of open space but onside and Vyner was so much deeper that he couldn't step up to play him offside. 

This is what I don't understand, when we make a mistake in defence everyone looks for the obvious bad pass but are oblivious to the rest of the teams positioning. I attached an image and you can see Naismith has no simple option, if he passes forward there is a Norwich midfielder in-between our options and you have their player sprinting to close down Naismith, he can't turn around because Pukki could then pressure, he has no easy option other than to lump it, however he's being chased down so he plays it quickly and fails. 
It's easy to blame Naismith because with hindsight he should have pumped it forward but Naismith hates to waste possession and is used to players running into space where he can make the pass so we need players to offer. The issue in this case was that once Naismith made that mistake Zac wasn't paying attention to the threat, he was watching the play which is why Vyner is not a natural centre back and I stand by that. I also think it's why Pearson wants a right sided centre back because had Vyner been watching the threat (Pukki) he would have stepped up high to play him offside, instead he was just walking and ball watching and due to that he played Pukki onside.

With a player like Pukki you find out if your centre backs are top tier championship centre backs, Pukki knew he was getting that ball before Vyner even saw the danger, that's a sign that he cannot handle top quality strikers.

So to answer you, no woosh, a clear case of looking at the whole pitch, not just the player on the ball.

 

@TommyD68- rather than me having to write this all out again to you as well

 

Spike - I think it’s an interesting observation, and I get where you are coming from.  A few games ago we moaned at Naismith having a pass to Atkinson intercepted by Holmes (Huddersfield) who ran through to get a shot saved by Bents.  There has to be a question about whether Atkinson (then) and Vyner (tonight) can alter their positioning to compensate for Naismith.

I think it is too easy to lay all the blame at Naismith, although I get why.

I also think Atkinson has been excellent too.

Overall, we defended really well as a team tonight, Norwich didn’t create much really (not of their own doing).  I don’t really recall them having a spell where they knocked it around and we chased shadows…which is often the case when we play the better teams.  We usually end knackering ourselves out and having no threat when we get the ball.

Naismith is therefore important to the way we are playing.  Tonight, for me, was about seeing if our “system” stands up against the better sides.  I think the answer is a categoric “yes”…and that is some progress, continuing from the last month or so of last season.

Although we can see if that is the case again on Saturday.

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Spike - I think it’s an interesting observation, and I get where you are coming from.  A few games ago we moaned at Naismith having a pass to Atkinson intercepted by Holmes (Huddersfield) who ran through to get a shot saved by Bents.  There has to be a question about whether Atkinson (then) and Vyner (tonight) can alter their positioning to compensate for Naismith.

I think it is too easy to lay all the blame at Naismith, although I get why.

I also think Atkinson has been excellent too.

Overall, we defended really well as a team tonight, Norwich didn’t create much really (not of their own doing).  I don’t really recall them having a spell where they knocked it around and we chased shadows…which is often the case when we play the better teams.  We usually end knackering ourselves out and having no threat when we get the ball.

Naismith is therefore important to the way we are playing.  Tonight, for me, was about seeing if our “system” stands up against the better sides.  I think the answer is a categoric “yes”…and that is some progress, continuing from the last month or so of last season.

Although we can see if that is the case again on Saturday.

Agreed Dave.

Watched it back several times now, the clip IamNick posted and yeah a bad ball by Naismith but were we positioned too high in that phase of play? Possibly.

Can't fully explain it but it looked too easy- collectively I mean, and to apportion 100% of blame to Naismith for that one, the 2nd goal I mean feels a tad unfair.

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, Daniro said:

He said the other day that if we keep a clean sheet, we win.  We don't do 0-0.   Problem is we are so far from keeping a clean sheet because we make so many mistakes at the back.   Where is Klose, I keep asking?! 

At Carrow Rd tonight.

[Rudolf Hucker]

I have watched City play all manner of dogshit over the last too many years but to see them today put Norwich on the back foot for so long was an absolute joy. Yes, we lost but we certainly weren’t beaten. I doubt that in recent years, there have been many Championship matches in which the Norwich  home crowd has been so nervously awaiting the final whistle. 
 

City were very impressive. The match stats were all in our favour - apart from the all important final score. Yes, we made some dumbass errors: two from Naismith which gifted them their first two goals then one from James, needlessly giving away possession in midfield, leading to us conceding the poorly defended corner from which Norwich scored. Would I want us to change our lineup or organisation to alter things? No way. Do I want us to cut out the avoidable errors? Of course. But let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater here. The reason that we’re so watchable and exciting right now is because of the flawed players who are prone to making the, slightly too frequent dumbass errors. Overall I prefer the positive, exciting benefits rather than having to tolerate the alternative mundanity and struggle. 
 

if you had told me a few months ago that Zak Vyner would, this season be a cornerstone of our defence, I would have laughed inanely and trembled nervously in equal proportion. Tonight the guy played out of his skin. Could he have better defended the corner leading to their third goal? Undoubtedly. But is he a revelation? Certainly. Atkinson, Dasilva, Scott, Sykes, Semenyo, Conway all young men, all outstanding. What a very good time to be a City fan. Enjoy them while they’re here. 
 

In truth, reaching the playoffs this season may prove a step too far - but it’s extremely creditable just how far Nige has brought us without a sizeable war chest. I’m really enjoying watching my team develop. So should we all. COYR. 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Rudolf Hucker

[REDOXO]

1 hour ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

I have watched City play all manner of dogshit over the last too many years but to see them today put Norwich on the back foot for so long was an absolute joy. Yes, we lost but we certainly weren’t beaten. I doubt that in recent years, there have been many Championship matches in which the Norwich  home crowd has been so nervously awaiting the final whistle. 
 

City were very impressive. The match stats were all in our favour - apart from the all important final score. Yes, we made some dumbass errors: two from Naismith which gifted them their first two goals then one from James, needlessly giving away possession in midfield, leading to us conceding the poorly defended corner from which Norwich scored. Would I want us to change our lineup or organisation to alter things? No way. Do I want us to cut out the avoidable errors? Of course. But let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater here. The reason that we’re so watchable and exciting right now is because of the flawed players who are prone to making the, slightly too frequent dumbass errors. Overall I prefer the positive, exciting benefits rather than having to tolerate the alternative mundanity and struggle. 
 

if you had told me a few months ago that Zak Vyner would, this season be a cornerstone of our defence, I would have laughed inanely and trembled nervously in equal proportion. Tonight the guy played out of his skin. Could he have better defended the corner leading to their third goal? Undoubtedly. But is he a revelation? Certainly. Atkinson, Dasilva, Scott, Sykes, Semenyo, Conway all young men, all outstanding. What a very good time to be a City fan. Enjoy them while they’re here. 
 

In truth, reaching the playoffs this season may prove a step too far - but it’s extremely creditable just how far Nige has brought us without a sizeable war chest. I’m really enjoying watching my team develop. So should we all. COYR. 

I agree by and large. My personal opinion is City are more than capable challengers to the top six and yes top two. 

[Bodiesaffer]

8 hours ago, Bas's perfect hattrick said:

The corner I will give you - that was bad defending. The other 2 goals conceded were individual errors and that's more down to mentality than anything else. 

Over confident, switching off

[Daniro]

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

At Carrow Rd tonight.

Was he?   He wasn't on the team sheet on Sofascore.

[italian dave]

10 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

Ahhhhhhhhh

So nice to see somebody who gets it

so many examples , but for one ball sent forward , Naismith and Norwich forward in 50/50 challenge 

Naismith realises Norwich forward can’t win header, doesn’t head it anywhere  -  waits for ball to drop to his chest , angles his chest to make a pass to teammate and gets us going forward again 

Numerous similar examples yet no one comments 

 

You’re right of course, and this was the debate that was had on here a couple of weeks ago at some length, so I don’t think it’s fair to say no-one gets it.
It’s about cost/benefit. And two weeks ago the overwhelming view was that Naismith was still in credit overall, more benefits than costs.

It’s just that after last night the balance has tilted a bit towards the ‘cost’ side - and you can’t go on forever arguing that the benefits of setting up forward moves or chances outweigh the costs of giving away two very very cheap goals. 

[jj77]

If that's the best in the division then I'm looking forward to see how the rest of the season goes for City.

[Sheltons Army]

1 hour ago, italian dave said:

You’re right of course, and this was the debate that was had on here a couple of weeks ago at some length, so I don’t think it’s fair to say no-one gets it.
It’s about cost/benefit. And two weeks ago the overwhelming view was that Naismith was still in credit overall, more benefits than costs.

It’s just that after last night the balance has tilted a bit towards the ‘cost’ side - and you can’t go on forever arguing that the benefits of setting up forward moves or chances outweigh the costs of giving away two very very cheap goals. 

I didn’t say ‘ no one gets it’ Dave so please don’t misquote , I was endorsing someone’s post who IMO does

But many don’t , or ignore , or don’t see , the numerous contributions he makes during a game and how he has a major impact on our positive football

Of course there is a balance , and Nigel Pearson will be the one who judges whether that’s positive or negative

 

[Davefevs]

12 hours ago, IAmNick said:

I think that'd be more than just a small adjustment though - it'd change how we play and Atkinson wouldn't be able to get forward in the ways he currently does, including for one of our goals tonight.

Naismith where he is is key in how we build from the back, I think we should stick with it personally.

Yep, he needs to get on the ball for us to play how we do.

On @Spike’s post maybe Vyner or Atkinson need to tweak their own positioning a bit too.

passing map:

passing network:

in the above you see who he makes passes to and who he receives passes from.  Of course there is the obvious passing between Vyner and Atkinson, but those are really good passes into midfield, especially Weimann, as he will typically play higher than James / Scott.  Naismith allows us to play through our midfield.

He also makes himself available for passes too.

if you play him LCB, you lose half of his passing!  You also negate Atkinson, and he’s quietly becoming a top player!

Would I like him to cut out the errors?  Yep, but I do think some of it goes hand in hand with the way we play.  Last night I saw the first as a defensive error, the second as an attacking error.  That’s being a bit “selective” I know….but it happened 70 yards from our goal!

11 hours ago, Super said:

The problem was your CB coming into midfield then giving it away nobody had time to cover the space he left.

That can be remedied.  Perhaps only one CB splits at a time?

[Sheltons Army]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, he needs to get on the ball for us to play how we do.

On @Spike’s post maybe Vyner or Atkinson need to tweak their own positioning a bit too.

passing map:

passing network:

in the above you see who he makes passes to and who he receives passes from.  Of course there is the obvious passing between Vyner and Atkinson, but those are really good passes into midfield, especially Weimann, as he will typically play higher than James / Scott.  Naismith allows us to play through our midfield.

He also makes himself available for passes too.

if you play him LCB, you lose half of his passing!  You also negate Atkinson, and he’s quietly becoming a top player!

Would I like him to cut out the errors?  Yep, but I do think some of it goes hand in hand with the way we play.  Last night I saw the first as a defensive error, the second as an attacking error.  That’s being a bit “selective” I know….but it happened 70 yards from our goal!

That can be remedied.  Perhaps only one CB splits at a time?

Cheers for posting those Dave , interesting

And for taking the time to explain your thoughts / interpretations , I think they are very relevant 

[Davefevs]

11 hours ago, wendyredredrobin said:

Can't believe we came away from this one without a point.  But for 2 gifted goals and yet another penalty not given in the 1st half it could have been a different story.

Can't believe they kept giving Mark Sykes so much room on the right.

We really need to get a grip of these Naismith errors though as it is costing us matches.  He's such a good player but needs to learn when he needs to play safe.

If we can keep this up all season, we have to be looking at a top 6 finish, surely.

Ditto on the left too with Dasilva.

If I was Aarons or Byram (or the two CMs), I’d have sparked out Sargent and Cantwell.  They were awful without the ball, Cantwell did little with it too.  Their attitude stank.  Can see why Norwich loaned out Cantwell and then why Bournemouth didn’t want him.

[Davefevs]

11 hours ago, red colin said:

I am not alone in seeing this,he is not a centre half.

Firstly, he’s not a Centre-Half in old-money, he’s a “sweeper” if you like, a deep ball player.

11 hours ago, The Swan and Cemetery said:

Let’s move Naismith to screen in front… oh hang on, now the wing backs need to be full backs… we don’t want that so let’s make Naismith 1 of 2 centre mids… oh hang on, now his passing angles are completely different and he’s spending his time looking backward as much as forward… his first mistake is a bad one, but every CB on our books will have made that type of mistake, the second one is more Naismith specific, but so are all the positives. Naismith sans errors is Baresi/Hansen playing very well (or something like that) and I never spotted either at the Gate. Replying to you, frustrated with some others! 

Yep, and to add to all those things, who is gonna pass him the ball in the first place?

11 hours ago, chinapig said:

Agreed, I remain astonished how Nigel has transformed us into a terrific attacking side, as good as any City team I can remember at this level. Remember under Holden when we would ironically cheer if we had a shot of any kind?

But at the same time we can't simply ignore the repeated individual errors. They have been going on for a long time regardless of personnel but we seem to be just hoping they will somehow just go away. Nigel doesn't seem to be particularly concerned though so maybe it will fix itself somehow.

I get the impression Nige (who most of us thought would try to make us solid first) has looked at the situation / personnel and sees attack as being our best form of defence…and that’s how we are gonna play for the moment.

[maxjak]

Am i being unnecessarily  harsh?  I felt Bentley didn't cover himself in glory for all 3 goals, i am fully aware that others mistakes contributed to the situations arising, but especially for the 2nd he was very indecisive. I am probably nitpicking, but i just felt he didn't have the best of games?  PS. Unrelated, but if only young Tommy had looked up and spotted Andi in space in the 1st minute.........it would have been a different game? But i can forgive him anything, considering what he has already achieved so far this season!  Ha!!

Edited September 15, 2022 by maxjak

[chinapig]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I get the impression Nige (who most of us thought would try to make us solid first) has looked at the situation / personnel and sees attack as being our best form of defence…and that’s how we are gonna play for the moment.

Agreed, Nigel has got it right. And quite how you eliminate the constant individual errors that have plagued us for a long time I have no idea.

[Rudolf Hucker]

25 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Ditto on the left too with Dasilva.

If I was Aarons or Byram (or the two CMs), I’d have sparked out Sargent and Cantwell.  They were awful without the ball, Cantwell did little with it too.  Their attitude stank.  Can see why Norwich loaned out Cantwell and then why Bournemouth didn’t want him.

Agreed. Cantwell was very poor. I really don’t rate him and if I had to choose between him and O’Dowda in my team (thank goodness I don’t have to) I’d choose Callum every day of the week.

[MarcusX]

11 hours ago, AppyDAZE said:

Agree to disagree.

Hey, I could be wrong, I only saw it once but I saw a bloke taking a chance when he was basically the last man.

Result, Norwich 1-0 when  they shouldn't be.

And not for the first time this season either.

So, not for me. Agree to disagree.

I understand your view, and many will agree, I just see his style of play as pivotal to how we get on the front foot rather than giving away possesion.

I agree it’s too many mistakes though, it needs to tighten up. I’ll also add, I can’t excuse the one against Blackpool. Very poor pass to Vyner and to try and do that with the outside of the foot at that stage of the game was criminal. That’s one where perhaps you could say it should have just gone long into a channel.

Second goal I’ve got a bit of sympathy watching it back, Atkinson was t really on, he could have turned and gone back to Bentley but again his passing through the lines gets us forward. If the pass had made it, we’ve got past their press - and more often than not the passing did make it.

Edited September 15, 2022 by MarcusX

[Davefevs]

11 hours ago, Bouncearoundtheground said:

To be pinning a parachute team back in their own half for much of the game and having them on the ropes in the way we did in injury time is remarkable considering where we’ve come from. Let’s not forget the calibre of team we played tonight or that they were forced to stifle themselves to stop us. We also showed different dimensions to our attacking play and that we are able to break sitting defences down. That gives me hope for the inevitable home games against lesser sides who will put 10 behind the ball.

This type of football won’t always tip in our favour. Most teams have a danger man but we won’t be playing 3 of the best strikers in the division in the same line up every week and that quality is what cost us tonight. We are still far better off maintaining this style of play. We can’t sit and defend leads or play for tight draws so what’s the point in setting up any other way? 

I’ve got a feeling we might be saying ‘if only we could cut out the silly errors’ all season but while we’re competitive and picking up wins it’s worth enjoying the ride, this is about as good as it gets as a Bristol City fan. There are sides to our game that are levels above anything we’ve seen for years. 

Some people see the difference tonight as Naismith’s mistakes…I could make a decent argument that the difference was T.Pukki.  This is a guy with double figures in each PL season…at the bottom club.

That second goal, I don’t think many Champ strikers score, he had an awful lot still to do…and he got a bit of luck with the deflection off Vyner…otherwise Bents saves.

But he is quality, his ability to play on the last man and stay onside is one helluva skill, that we’ve seen for 4/5 seasons.  Top class!

9 hours ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

I have watched City play all manner of dogshit over the last too many years but to see them today put Norwich on the back foot for so long was an absolute joy. Yes, we lost but we certainly weren’t beaten. I doubt that in recent years, there have been many Championship matches in which the Norwich  home crowd has been so nervously awaiting the final whistle. 
 

City were very impressive. The match stats were all in our favour - apart from the all important final score. Yes, we made some dumbass errors: two from Naismith which gifted them their first two goals then one from James, needlessly giving away possession in midfield, leading to us conceding the poorly defended corner from which Norwich scored. Would I want us to change our lineup or organisation to alter things? No way. Do I want us to cut out the avoidable errors? Of course. But let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater here. The reason that we’re so watchable and exciting right now is because of the flawed players who are prone to making the, slightly too frequent dumbass errors. Overall I prefer the positive, exciting benefits rather than having to tolerate the alternative mundanity and struggle. 
 

if you had told me a few months ago that Zak Vyner would, this season be a cornerstone of our defence, I would have laughed inanely and trembled nervously in equal proportion. Tonight the guy played out of his skin. Could he have better defended the corner leading to their third goal? Undoubtedly. But is he a revelation? Certainly. Atkinson, Dasilva, Scott, Sykes, Semenyo, Conway all young men, all outstanding. What a very good time to be a City fan. Enjoy them while they’re here. 
 

In truth, reaching the playoffs this season may prove a step too far - but it’s extremely creditable just how far Nige has brought us without a sizeable war chest. I’m really enjoying watching my team develop. So should we all. COYR. 

Zak is gradually getting better and better.  Still some way to go, and I still think their third goal…why didn’t Weimann jump?

3 hours ago, Daniro said:

Was he?   He wasn't on the team sheet on Sofascore.

Yes, there was a photo with him and Hernandez.  Plus this…

 

[MarcusX]

37 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Am i being unnecessarily  harsh?  I felt Bentley didn't cover himself in glory for all 3 goals, i am fully aware that others mistakes contributed to the situations arising, but especially for the 2nd he was very indecisive. I am probably nitpicking, but i just felt he didn't have the best of games?  PS. Unrelated, but if only young Tommy had looked up and spotted Andi in space in the 1st minute.........it would have been a different game? But i can forgive him anything, considering what he has already achieved so far this season!  Ha!!

A tad harsh, first goal maybe. There was definitely hesitancy but once out of his box / on the edge what can he do? Second was a deflection off Vyner else he saves it.

He also made an outstanding 1 on 1 save later on and denied Pukki the hat trick with his face.

Not his best game but certainly not his worst. Didn’t have much else to do.

[maxjak]

11 hours ago, RedRock said:

Interesting comments from a positive Pearson.

One thing I really, really hope we’ve learnt from tonight is not to play a short corner in the 95th minute of a match you’re losing by a single goal, having brought Martin on and both central defenders in the box, plus the man you’re passing short to being marked.

That was the most ****** ridiculous, idiotic, brainless piece of football I’ve seen all Season. If you haven’t the balls to take responsibility to cross it into the box at moments like that, then give up the responsibility of taking corners. 

Who took the corner? I  Cannot remember?

[CiderJar]

Reasonably kind words from Dean Smith

 

[italian dave]

4 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

I didn’t say ‘ no one gets it’ Dave so please don’t misquote , I was endorsing someone’s post who IMO does

But many don’t , or ignore , or don’t see , the numerous contributions he makes during a game and how he has a major impact on our positive football

Of course there is a balance , and Nigel Pearson will be the one who judges whether that’s positive or negative

 

You just sounded a bit exasperated with your ‘nice to see someone gets it’

I certainly get exasperated - and apologies if I over-reacted - by how differently Vyner gets treated. On here, not by NP. If he’d made those two mistakes last night then he’d have been crucified and the debate wouldn’t have been about cost/benefit (and for me he has plenty of credit this season) but about whether he should ever play again! 

In a way Naismith sums up what’s so good to watch in the whole team at the moment. Can play some fantastic football, in a really positive fashion, but always likely to concede. 

Sure NP will make the call, but everyone will have their view and that’s what this place is about. 

[pillred]

16 hours ago, Loosey Boy said:

Proud of the boys tonight - never gave up and entertaining to watch…..play like that and we will win many more games than we lose.

Another toughI one on Saturday …… would take a point now which would set us up nicely for the international break

COYRs

 

 

I think the the team will be even more determined after last nights performance not to lose Saturday and I think we will be good for a point at least.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bazooka Joe]

Well if nothing else, our games this year have certainly been entertaining, for both good and bad reasons.

Much more interesting than the no-shots-on-target dross and negative tactics we had to endure in times gone by.

Supporting City is definitely not for the faint-hearted or those of a nervous disposition.

There's something potentially special about this group of players (and some of those waiting in the wings).

Pearson has, without doubt, made a positive difference to the way the team plays and battles and has instilled a sense of belief and higher expectations amongst both players and fans.

Fed up that we lost to an undeserving Norwich, and, more so, the silly mistakes that cost us so dearly, but pleased to see that we have a group of players that, on their day, can beat any team in the Championship.

[1960maaan]

I saw some still earlier on for a Penalty shout we had, not just before the goal but first half I think. Sister in Law was round so I missed some of the game. Anyone have the stills, or even better the clip ?
The other thing I'd like to see was that pathetic dive by the Norwich lad, may have been Arrons. Should have been booked but didn't.

Might have to wait for the full game video if they are doing every game.

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

I saw some still earlier on for a Penalty shout we had, not just before the goal but first half I think. Sister in Law was round so I missed some of the game. Anyone have the stills, or even better the clip ?
The other thing I'd like to see was that pathetic dive by the Norwich lad, may have been Arrons. Should have been booked but didn't.

Might have to wait for the full game video if they are doing every game.

The Hanley shove on Sykes is on the club YT channel highlights.

[Feral Williams]

Anyone watched the highlights on the City site ? 
Strange 

[1960maaan]

42 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The Hanley shove on Sykes is on the club YT channel highlights.

Thanks Dave, trying not to have a row with my Norwich mate. He is banging on about a Rugby tackle on Arrons, must admit I missed that.

[One Team]

Some decent comments about us on the Norwich forum:

https://forum.pinkun.com/index.php?/topic/149660-credit-to-bristol-city/

 

[Davefevs]

21 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

Thanks Dave, trying not to have a row with my Norwich mate. He is banging on about a Rugby tackle on Arrons, must admit I missed that.

He’s talking about the Wells challenge which led to Semenyo’s goal.