Penalty...

[spudski]

.... anyone else think the ref wasn't going to give a penalty when Williams went down in the box if Semenyo hadnt scored?

[firstdivision]

1 minute ago, spudski said:

.... anyone else think the ref wasn't going to give a penalty when Williams went down in the box if Semenyo hadnt scored?

It's a good question.It was definitely a penalty though.

But I'm glad Semenyo scored. I wouldn't want to use up our one penalty of the season when we are 3-1 down with 15 left. Much better when it's 0-0 with 5 minutes left (although we'd probably hoof it over the stand).

[Bat Fastard]

It must be part of the training course for referees - never. ever award a penalty to Bristol City.

[Mr Popodopolous]

0 in 38 League games and 0 in 41 in all competitive games in that period.

1 in 82 in all competitive games in a period going back to the game following Millwall away in late January 2020 or 1 in 92 League games.

Finally if our sampling is inclusive of that, it improves a bit...2 in all competitive games, from Huddersfield away in early November 2020 to the present.

That would be 2 penalties awarded in 99 competitive games.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Super]

Looked a foul by Wells before that. 

[chucky]

5 minutes ago, Super said:

Looked a foul by Wells before that. 

I agree.  Norwich supports seem to think that Wells fouled their player and that is why they were booing.

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by chucky

[chucky]

18 minutes ago, spudski said:

.... anyone else think the ref wasn't going to give a penalty when Williams went down in the box if Semenyo hadnt scored?

I think we should have had a Penalty in the first half.

[maxjak]

On the subject of Pens.....I hope the Football League will consider giving Nathan "Casey" Jones a special award for "Whiner of the Year".  I hear him after every match on Sky bemoaning their lack of penalties and how unjust the World is, in that distinctive Welsh drone? Ha!   He has no idea how good they have it compared to our dismal record?

Edited September 15, 2022 by maxjak

[Steve Watts]

5 minutes ago, chucky said:

I agree.  Norwich supports seem to think that Wells fouled their player and that is why they were booing.

 

You see I saw that as six of one and half a dozen of the other.  Wells seemed to me to be grappled by their player and then he put his arms out himself and caught the guy.  I can only assume that's how it looked to the referee as well.

Hats off to Williams though.  Really switched on to the opportunity. 

[Curr Avon]

5 minutes ago, chucky said:

I think we should have had a Penalty in the first half.

It was a carbon copy of the foul my United's Martinez on Brighton's Danny Welbeck at Old Trafford in the first game of the season. Both penalties.

[Curr Avon]

20 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

It must be part of the training course for referees - never. ever award a penalty to Bristol City.

It was Williams' best assist since the sliced topspin pass to Weimann, for his volleyed winner at Ewood last season.

 

[Curr Avon]

17 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

0 in 38 League games and 0 in 41 in all competitive games in that period.

1 in 92 League games or 1 in 82 in all competitive games in a period going back to the game following Millwall away in late January 2021!

Finally if our sampling is inclusive of that, it improves a bit...2 in all competitive games, from Huddersfield away in early November 2020 to the present.

That would be 2 penalties awarded in 99 competitive games.

1 in 92 League games or 1 in 82 in all competitive games in a period going back to the game following Millwall away in late January 2021! - Sorry to be pedantic, but should this be the other way round.

And based on the timing of our last penalty, at Coventry last season, please can you calculate the number of minutes?

[Super]

4 minutes ago, Curr Avon said:

It was a carbon copy of the foul my United's Martinez on Brighton's Danny Welbeck at Old Trafford in the first game of the season. Both penalties.

I thought Sykes went down too easily but seen them given certainly.

[Northern Red]

I don't think the Sykes non-penalty was much different contact-wise to the one in the second half where we got a free kick just to the left of the area, foul on Wells I think?

[GlastonburyRed]

I think he was on the way to triggering to put the whistle to mouth to actually give it.

[hinsleburg]

9 minutes ago, Super said:

I thought Sykes went down too easily but seen them given certainly.

Actually think Tinnion summed it up perfectly, if it's given for you you'd agree and if it was given against you it would be soft!

I thought it was a pen personally, but don't look at it in the same way as some of the other ones we've been turned down over the last 18 months or so. If there was VAR I don't think they would have overturned it

[WarksRobin]

Must be some sort of record for the longest consecutive streak of goals scored without any being penalty kicks.

[Mr Popodopolous]

55 minutes ago, Curr Avon said:

1 in 92 League games or 1 in 82 in all competitive games in a period going back to the game following Millwall away in late January 2021! - Sorry to be pedantic, but should this be the other way round.

And based on the timing of our last penalty, at Coventry last season, please can you calculate the number of minutes?

Amended that part.

Just take basic 90 or shall I tot up the stoppage time too? The latter based on BBC text comms as to 90 + x for stoppage time added at the end of each half.

For competitive games, it reads as 0 penalties in 3,765 minutes of play. 38 League games, 3 Cup games- penalty was awarded just before HT at Coventry in the League, and the Cup game v Fulham had half an hour of extra time.

The League alone and forget stoppage time for a minute, reads as 0 penalties in 3,465 minutes of play. Was awarded at the end of the 1st half at Coventry.

Another way of looking at it might be 0 penalties in 41.8333 (rounding etc) 90 minute periods.

I can have a look at the longer period ones later ie 1 in x or 2 in y etc.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

46 minutes ago, Super said:

Looked a foul by Wells before that. 

My view was that Aarons “obstructed” Wells, made more of an attempt to block Wells run than to make a tackle, so you could argue the first foul was by the Norwich RB.  I think that’s why the ref plays on…ie they both committed fouls, so get on with it.

I think he would’ve blew for a pen had Semenyo not scored.

[Mayes86]

56 minutes ago, Super said:

Looked a foul by Wells before that. 

Looked to me like their player went for shoulder barge/block on wells who saw it coming so kinda stopped running, which made their player go too far past wells who then side stepped him with an arm on his shoulder to ease past him. If that’s being given as a foul then there is no hope for the game  

[Curr Avon]

24 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Amended that part.

Just take basic 90 or shall I tot up the stoppage time too? The latter based on BBC text comms as to 90 + x for stoppage time added at the end of each half.

For competitive games, it reads as 0 penalties in 3,765 minutes of play. 38 League games, 3 Cup games- penalty was awarded just before HT at Coventry in the League, and the Cup game v Fulham had half an hour of extra time.

The League alone and forget stoppage time for a minute, reads as 0 penalties in 3,465 minutes of play. Was awarded at the end of the 1st half at Coventry.

Another way of looking at it might be 0 penalties in 41.667 (rounding etc) 90 minute periods.

I can have a look at the longer period ones later ie 1 in x or 2 in y etc.

Thank you. And this goes without saying.

[Big C]

1 hour ago, Northern Red said:

I don't think the Sykes non-penalty was much different contact-wise to the one in the second half where we got a free kick just to the left of the area, foul on Wells I think?

I said the same. 

[bcfcredandwhite]

I was sent this chart by a family member - it came originally from ****tter - I don't know the author and I have NO idea of it's accuracy, but if it's even HALF accurate it's shocking. 

It shows the number of minutes BETWEEN penalties for ALL of the current Championship teams

 

 

[steveybadger]

I think Wells was looking for contact and hence the foul but had to move towards Aarons to get it, and ended up with his arm over his shoulder. So a foul by Wells imo.

[Fuber]

12 hours ago, hinsleburg said:

Actually think Tinnion summed it up perfectly, if it's given for you you'd agree and if it was given against you it would be soft!

I thought it was a pen personally, but don't look at it in the same way as some of the other ones we've been turned down over the last 18 months or so. If there was VAR I don't think they would have overturned it

If against us I'd have been annoyed. Sure, would have been slightly soft. At worst.

Equally however Hanley was completely clumsy. If we were in the PL that's gets given on VAR you would have thought.

Not a truly dangerous position, not going towards goal, just a stupid stupid challenge.

If that was Atkinson making that challenge I'd be swearing.

[hertsexile]

Hanley tackle on Skye’s was clumsy but still a foal therefore should have been a penalty. 
If the same challenge had been in the Bristol City box by any one of our defenders penalty would have been awarded. A simple sneeze anywhere near an opposing forward in the City box has our defence always seem to glance towards the ref expecting the penalty to be awarded. Oh for referees to be consistent! 

[Mad Cyril]

18 hours ago, Davefevs said:

 

I think he would’ve blew for a pen had Semenyo not scored.

As soon as he allowed Semenyo to shoot, the advantage had been played. If he had missed it would have been a goal kick. Championship refs don't have the nuts for brave logical decisions like that and definitely not when it's Bristol City.

[grifty]

17 hours ago, steveybadger said:

I think Wells was looking for contact and hence the foul but had to move towards Aarons to get it, and ended up with his arm over his shoulder. So a foul by Wells imo.

I thought it was going to be given as a foul, but I’d like to think the ref saw a small tug on the shoulder and then Aarons holding his face rolling around like a little bitch and thought he didn’t deserve a free kick for it.

[East End Old Boy]

19 hours ago, Davefevs said:

My view was that Aarons “obstructed” Wells, made more of an attempt to block Wells run than to make a tackle, so you could argue the first foul was by the Norwich RB.  I think that’s why the ref plays on…ie they both committed fouls, so get on with it.

I think he would’ve blew for a pen had Semenyo not scored.

As a fully qualified Dolman referee, that’s exactly what happened!

[supercidered]

51 minutes ago, hertsexile said:

Hanley tackle on Skye’s was clumsy but still a foal therefore should have been a penalty. 
If the same challenge had been in the Bristol City box by any one of our defenders penalty would have been awarded. A simple sneeze anywhere near an opposing forward in the City box has our defence always seem to glance towards the ref expecting the penalty to be awarded. Oh for referees to be consistent! 

I think Hanley is more of an old Donkey than a Foal but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[Steve Watts]

59 minutes ago, hertsexile said:

Hanley tackle on Skye’s was clumsy but still a foal therefore should have been a penalty. 
If the same challenge had been in the Bristol City box by any one of our defenders penalty would have been awarded. A simple sneeze anywhere near an opposing forward in the City box has our defence always seem to glance towards the ref expecting the penalty to be awarded. Oh for referees to be consistent! 

What on earth are you talking about?  Referees have been very consistent in not awarding us a penalty!

[sh1t_ref_again]

1 hour ago, hertsexile said:

Hanley tackle on Skye’s was clumsy but still a foal therefore should have been a penalty. 
If the same challenge had been in the Bristol City box by any one of our defenders penalty would have been awarded. A simple sneeze anywhere near an opposing forward in the City box has our defence always seem to glance towards the ref expecting the penalty to be awarded. Oh for referees to be consistent! 

That's what boils my p1ss, the freekick given to Norwich in the build up to the 1st goal was so soft and struggle to see as a foul, then not long after Alex gets a harder version of the same what the ref has given, but no foul, then a few minutes later he does not give the penalty which again was much more a foul than the 1st one he gave.

I don't care if refs give everything, although I prefer when they give little and let teh game flow, I just want consistency for both sides. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just on a general comparison note, not delved into significant numbers yet but last season and this, Reading have been statistically not dissimilar to us and perhaps a bit worse.

In the League, I think they've been awarded 2 penalties this season alone and 6 since the start of last season. That is sixfold above us.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

In respect of stats yesterday, @Curr Avon especially.

From 1st November 2020 to present- all competitive matches and inclusive of extra time for Cup games

1 penalty per 4,485 minutes of play. Or 49.8333 recurring 90 minute periods.

If we are looking at League only over the same period

1 penalty in 8,280 minutes of play. 

Or put simply, one awarded in the last 92 League games.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Curr Avon]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Or put simply, one awarded in the last 92 League games.

Or two seasons. Bloody hell!!

Many thanks for the data Mr P.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Curr Avon

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, Curr Avon said:

Or two seasons. Bloody hell!!

Yep. 0.5 per season now is what we are trending on in that period, looking solely at the League.

0.0108 per game and maybe rounding takes it up to 0.0109 per game but not a great improvement.

[Curr Avon]

7 hours ago, Steve Watts said:

What on earth are you talking about?  Referees have been very consistent in not awarding us a penalty!

Which phenomenon will occur first?

An awarded penalty?

Or

A Massengo goal (in the right net obviously)?

Edited September 16, 2022 by Curr Avon

[Chivs]

Am I the only one who will be disappointed when we next get a penalty?

[Donnies Tackle]

This commentary eloquently and objectively covers the penalty beautifully.

Oops- contains swearing!!!

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Donnies Tackle

[MarcusX]

On 15/09/2022 at 12:20, spudski said:

.... anyone else think the ref wasn't going to give a penalty when Williams went down in the box if Semenyo hadnt scored?

No I think he was going to give it and waited for play to develop first, good refereeing

[MarcusX]

On 15/09/2022 at 12:37, chucky said:

I agree.  Norwich supports seem to think that Wells fouled their player and that is why they were booing.

 

Wells was fouled and then kinda kicked out / rolled over, looked like he kicked the Norwich player in the head which is why he stayed down and Norwich were booing.

[MarcusX]

On 16/09/2022 at 07:44, hertsexile said:

Hanley tackle on Skye’s was clumsy but still a foal therefore should have been a penalty. 
If the same challenge had been in the Bristol City box by any one of our defenders penalty would have been awarded. A simple sneeze anywhere near an opposing forward in the City box has our defence always seem to glance towards the ref expecting the penalty to be awarded. Oh for referees to be consistent! 

we got away with one too if I recall, certainly not a stone wall but close enough to suggest your statement isnt quite true

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 16/09/2022 at 16:18, Mr Popodopolous said:

In respect of stats yesterday, @Curr Avon especially.

From 1st November 2020 to present- all competitive matches and inclusive of extra time for Cup games

1 penalty per 4,485 minutes of play. Or 49.8333 recurring 90 minute periods.

If we are looking at League only over the same period

1 penalty in 8,280 minutes of play. 

Or put simply, one awarded in the last 92 League games.

Just add 45 to the 4,485, add 0.5 to the 49.833.

 Now 1 per 4,530, or 50.333 recurring.

Add 90 to the 8,280 or 1 to the 92 games.

Now 1 in 8,370 minutes of play or 93 League games.

Not that we had any particular claims today tbh.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Might have a look this week at as a starting point, some of the shots to penalties data for the 18 clubs who were in the Championship last season and still are..ie those who did not go up or down in 2021-22.

Some comparisons will be interesting I reckon.

14 sides, ie us and 13 others who were in the Championship in 2020-21, 2021-22 and 2022-23.

If I get time at some point, I might get into shots, goals and even the figures for goals and penalties but excluding own goals.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Port Said Red]

13 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Just add 45 to the 4,485, add 0.5 to the 49.833.

 Now 1 per 4,530, or 50.333 recurring.

Add 90 to the 8,280 or 1 to the 92 games.

Now 1 in 8,370 minutes of play or 93 League games.

Not that we had any particular claims today tbh.

I thought their goalkeeper took Conway out in the first half, I don't think he got anywhere near the ball and knew what he was doing. I thought that was partly why Conway went off so early.

[Sir Geoff]

Not just us. Watching EFL highlights last night it seemed that 4 or 5 stonewall penalties were waved away by the referees. Got me wondering if refs are so poor these days that it's easier to bottle giving a penalty than making a mistake awarding one that shouldn't have been.

Grant Holt is a lucky boy. Two blatant shoves in the back in a week and nothing given.

[kiwicolin]

On 15/09/2022 at 12:32, Super said:

Looked a foul by Wells before that. 

Not all fouls are fouls now. Refs let the game flow better. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

I thought their goalkeeper took Conway out in the first half, I don't think he got anywhere near the ball and knew what he was doing. I thought that was partly why Conway went off so early.

Thanks, will it be on highlights do you know? Unlike say the Sykes one on Wednesday or some of the claims, this one seems to have gone under the radar a bit.

I missed the 1st 5-10 mins but not one that springs to mind so much- will watch varied highlights certainly.

[mozo]

On 16/09/2022 at 16:25, Curr Avon said:

Which phenomenon will occur first?

An awarded penalty?

Or

A Massengo goal (in the right net obviously)?

If Massengo wins the penalty, then steps up to take it... imagine the tension  

[Port Said Red]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Thanks, will it be on highlights do you know? Unlike say the Sykes one on Wednesday or some of the claims, this one seems to have gone under the radar a bit.

I missed the 1st 5-10 mins but not one that springs to mind so much- will watch varied highlights certainly.

It's the one just on half time, after 3-55 on the YouTube highlights. Each time I watch it it gets worse, the keeper only has eyes for TC.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Made a start on some of the penalty data. For 2020-21 and 2021-22.

Intending to post the relevant parts as graphs or charts this time as opposed to just numbers. Have divisional averages too, not even looked yet at penalties against or indeed the 12 constants in the division from 2020-21 to 2022-23.

The issue with this season is that the relevant shots for data appears not to be up yet, on Footcharts anyway. Will certainly post some graphs or charts when done but definitely our ratios seem to be falling below and well below average respectively when some divisional averages taken into account, especially last season

The oft cited stat of 1 in 93 games, again a huge job to take the shots let alone the shot average per side for just 37 games. At best would need to check 108 games (9 rounds, 12 per round) from 2020-21 and work backwards! Unsure I'll be doing that particular one any time soon!

Edited September 20, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[WarksRobin]

What's the record for the longest goal streak without penalties?

[hinsleburg]

On 18/09/2022 at 11:11, Port Said Red said:

It's the one just on half time, after 3-55 on the YouTube highlights. Each time I watch it it gets worse, the keeper only has eyes for TC.

Not sure I agree with that, looks to me like Conway's momentum has taken him into the keeper? Wouldn't say there was much of a forward momentum from the keeper at all so looks to me just like an accidental collision and no foul either way.

Watching it back, I actually think Conway has bottled it slightly, taken his eyes off the ball and subsequently missed a golden chance! Potentially a big moment in the game!

[Mr Popodopolous]

Goals or games? That's some question! All competitions or just League...so many ways to measure it!

[Lanterne Rouge]

1 hour ago, hinsleburg said:

Not sure I agree with that, looks to me like Conway's momentum has taken him into the keeper? Wouldn't say there was much of a forward momentum from the keeper at all so looks to me just like an accidental collision and no foul either way.

Watching it back, I actually think Conway has bottled it slightly, taken his eyes off the ball and subsequently missed a golden chance! Potentially a big moment in the game!

I suspect if it had gone in the ref would have given a foul on the keeper like they always do.

[WarksRobin]

4 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Goals or games? That's some question! All competitions or just League...so many ways to measure it!

It’s goals, let’s say in the league to eliminate the variability of cup runs. We’ve scored lots since we last scored from the spot. There must be a record out there somewhere. One for the stattos 

[MelksRed]

On 16/09/2022 at 08:36, East End Old Boy said:

As a fully qualified Dolman referee, that’s exactly what happened!

This is sooooo me

[downendcity]

On 16/09/2022 at 16:51, Chivs said:

Am I the only one who will be disappointed when we next get a penalty?

........ especially when we miss it, as we surely will! 

[Lanterne Rouge]

6 hours ago, downendcity said:

........ especially when we miss it, as we surely will! 

I`m just waiting for Jeff on SS - `And we`re going over to St Andrews/Kenilworth Road/Bramall Lane/Deepdale where Bristol City have a penalty, their first one in two years (and he will know exactly how long it`s been) - what happened Bianca?`

`Nahki Wells hit the bar Jeff so it`s still 0-0`

[downendcity]

1 hour ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

I`m just waiting for Jeff on SS - `And we`re going over to St Andrews/Kenilworth Road/Bramall Lane/Deepdale where Bristol City have a penalty, their first one in two years (and he will know exactly how long it`s been) - what happened Bianca?`

`Nahki Wells hit the bar Jeff so it`s still 0-0`

Unbelievable Jeff!

[Mr Popodopolous]

Seeing the thread about the pointless job as penalty spot drawer bit did make me look again...just at us.

Games in all competitions since our last penalty at home

47 and counting.

This is from 1st November 2020 to the present day.

It's a bit better in the League but not that much..

League games since our last penalty at home

45 and counting

That doesn't include the last home game in which we fit one- Norwich behind closed doors during Covid on Halloween weekend 2020, but everything subsequent to that.

I've even looked at the last home penalty with fans present and I believe that it was Luton at home, late December 2019.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Not quite City related and my work on the penalty stuff while ongoing, has stalled but I note that QPR and Reading both got one apiece last night.

Reading in particular are not and have not been statistically so different to us in this period, yet have been awarded 7 iirc (League figures only) to our 1 from the start of August 2021 to present.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Quick update.

Competitive Matches in all competitions since our last penalty

47

League games since our last penalty

44

The famous 1st November 2020 stat

Penalties for since then in all  competitive matches

2 in 105 matches.

Penalties for in League matches since then

1 in 98 matches.

In the famous November 2020 stat, it's 15 and 16 against respectively.

Think it maybe 8 against since our last 1.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous