So, that second goal…

[Lordofthebling]

It's like a pub team

[BCFC Rich]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Haven’t watched any of it back yet.  My view at the time…I’m too far away to hear any comms, so my big question is does a keeper need to come 15-18 yards to take a straight ball when we have a couple of players in position to attack it.  That is the first error.  If he has shouted (Nige said he heard it), then Kalas has to clear the way.  So poor decision to come from Max, poor decision by Tomas to not get out the way.

But that’s from 80 yards away…without the benefit of replays.

I don't think it is a poor decision to come, if you are the keeper and you are capable of catching the ball in the area there is no reason not to come. If the defense listen to the call and trust it Max claims the ball easily and we have controlled possession of the ball. I think the issue ends up being a lack of authority from Max, the CB's don't leave it and after what comes next he should be furious with them, but just looks dejected. I think in terms of controlling his area he is doing the right thing he just doesn't (yet?) have the confidence/authority over the defense he needs. 

[1960maaan]

4 hours ago, Cowshed said:

We may or we might not.

When a defensive line is that high do you want your keeper to contest a ball with his own team mates. I would not.

 

 

I give you that he's coming a long way, but as I have wanted and complained we haven't had a Keeper to command his box, then I'm not going to criticise one that tries to do that. Well, not too much.

We all heard Max's shout , from then on it should be his ball, unless it's too late for a defender to pull out, which I'm not sure it is.
To have a keeper claim balls through his area is a massive benefit. If you're trying to see out a game, you get possession and kill time. Chasing a game, you get a chance to start an attack. Judging by a lot of the game, if the ball is just headed out, they get possession and continue the attack. Back to your question, no I don't want him contesting with his own players, but then that's why he calls. Kalas runs about 5 yards to challenge, Martin goes for it and only Scott seems to pull out. Maybe it's playing in front of keeper that rarely leave their line, who knows, but for me if a keeper calls early and clearly it's his ball. 

Like I said, I've wanted Bentley to be more decisive coming for crosses, he won't. O'Leary did so I'm not going to call him out for doing something I've wanted our keeper to do for some time.
If he did that consistently, I'm sure the rest would become used to him coming and make way. At the moment we seem to get away with very few mistakes. 

[NcnsBcfc]

19 hours ago, GrahamC said:

First goal can’t be down to Max, even if some are trying to make it so.

Good reaction save, no time to do more than that but defensively we simply don’t react & get in a challenge quickly enough for the second ball.

For the second goal Kalas should have respected his shout but I do feel it is too far out & he’s coming through 3 of our defenders for this, which seems unnecessary.

Absolutely no idea how we’ll line up on Tuesday but based on NP’s comments he looks a certainty.

I think his post match comments were designed to protect Max @GrahamC.

it's obvious Bents is on the naughty step, with Max having the shirt (barring more calamity) for the next few games.

If he had slated him, he could easily ruin his confidence, so he went through the "i admire, and applaud his endeavours, but.... wished he would have punched it" nonsense. 

I think his comments would have sent a message to Bents, that he's not going back anytime soon.

I expect to see Bajic against Lincoln though. A good opportunity to see him in the first team.

[Offside]

16 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

I give you that he's coming a long way, but as I have wanted and complained we haven't had a Keeper to command his box, then I'm not going to criticise one that tries to do that. Well, not too much.

We all heard Max's shout , from then on it should be his ball, unless it's too late for a defender to pull out, which I'm not sure it is.
To have a keeper claim balls through his area is a massive benefit. If you're trying to see out a game, you get possession and kill time. Chasing a game, you get a chance to start an attack. Judging by a lot of the game, if the ball is just headed out, they get possession and continue the attack. Back to your question, no I don't want him contesting with his own players, but then that's why he calls. Kalas runs about 5 yards to challenge, Martin goes for it and only Scott seems to pull out. Maybe it's playing in front of keeper that rarely leave their line, who knows, but for me if a keeper calls early and clearly it's his ball. 

Like I said, I've wanted Bentley to be more decisive coming for crosses, he won't. O'Leary did so I'm not going to call him out for doing something I've wanted our keeper to do for some time.
If he did that consistently, I'm sure the rest would become used to him coming and make way. At the moment we seem to get away with very few mistakes. 

Completely agree with this. It was an awful goal to give away, but at least O’Leary was being proactive. 

[Better Red]

Max at fault both goals yesterday.

1st Weak hand pushed it back into the middle instead of wide.

2nd If you come that far as a keeper you have to catch - he didn’t so he is at fault.

Offers nothing better than Bentley when coming off his line and Bentley is a better shop stopper.

Bentley just is a better keeper

[cheese]

14 minutes ago, Better Red said:

Max at fault both goals yesterday.

1st Weak hand pushed it back into the middle instead of wide.

2nd If you come that far as a keeper you have to catch - he didn’t so he is at fault.

Offers nothing better than Bentley when coming off his line and Bentley is a better shop stopper.

Bentley just is a better keeper

Sorry, can't agree with either of your statements.  On the first there wasn't enough power to take out wide - he did all he could do with that.  On the second, he was set to catch it until Kalas intervened.

[1960maaan]

10 minutes ago, Better Red said:

Max at fault both goals yesterday.

1st Weak hand pushed it back into the middle instead of wide.

2nd If you come that far as a keeper you have to catch - he didn’t so he is at fault.

Offers nothing better than Bentley when coming off his line and Bentley is a better shop stopper.

Bentley just is a better keeper

The first was a reaction save, he didn't have the luxury of choosing where to put it. 
I'd question why they had 2 men over on the back post, Weimann standing and watching ?

Not long ago that Bentley was getting criticism for knocking saves into a dangerous area, and he almost never leaves his line.

I don't think there is much between the 2, I hope Bajic can add something as Bentley will be off in the summer.

[BCFC Rich]

It would be interesting to see a heat map of where ma was or maybe a touch map of where he received the ball. He was definitely confident coming out of his box

[KegCity]

13 minutes ago, cheese said:

Sorry, can't agree with either of your statements.  On the first there wasn't enough power to take out wide - he did all he could do with that.  On the second, he was set to catch it until Kalas intervened.

Exactly. Whether he should’ve come or not is another conversation but he claimed it, got there and had the ball taken out of his hands by Kalas who’s given it straight to a Milwall player.

[Davefevs]

4 hours ago, cheese said:

Sorry Dave, I respect a lot of what you have to say but I think you're wrong on this one.  The ball came into the penalty area, it was straight and there were no Millwall players anywhere near able to challenge for the ball.  Max clearly called (you can see other players reacting to that call), Kalas doesn't and heads it away just before it falls into his hands.  And, he heads it to a Millwall player with bags of space just inside the area (so he didn't even clear the lines anyway) - perfectly placed to bend the ball into the top corner even if Max was on his line

That’s fine.  I don’t know if Kalas shouted, that’s my big issue in determining any blame.  I’m not saying it was 50:50 blame, just that possibility of fault from both (in different measures).

2 hours ago, BCFC Rich said:

I don't think it is a poor decision to come, if you are the keeper and you are capable of catching the ball in the area there is no reason not to come. If the defense listen to the call and trust it Max claims the ball easily and we have controlled possession of the ball. I think the issue ends up being a lack of authority from Max, the CB's don't leave it and after what comes next he should be furious with them, but just looks dejected. I think in terms of controlling his area he is doing the right thing he just doesn't (yet?) have the confidence/authority over the defense he needs. 

All fair comments.

[Cowshed]

2 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

I give you that he's coming a long way, but as I have wanted and complained we haven't had a Keeper to command his box, then I'm not going to criticise one that tries to do that. Well, not too much.

We all heard Max's shout , from then on it should be his ball, unless it's too late for a defender to pull out, which I'm not sure it is.
To have a keeper claim balls through his area is a massive benefit. If you're trying to see out a game, you get possession and kill time. Chasing a game, you get a chance to start an attack. Judging by a lot of the game, if the ball is just headed out, they get possession and continue the attack. Back to your question, no I don't want him contesting with his own players, but then that's why he calls. Kalas runs about 5 yards to challenge, Martin goes for it and only Scott seems to pull out. Maybe it's playing in front of keeper that rarely leave their line, who knows, but for me if a keeper calls early and clearly it's his ball. 

Like I said, I've wanted Bentley to be more decisive coming for crosses, he won't. O'Leary did so I'm not going to call him out for doing something I've wanted our keeper to do for some time.
If he did that consistently, I'm sure the rest would become used to him coming and make way. At the moment we seem to get away with very few mistakes. 

Do I want my keeper interferiing with a high line? No. Do I want my keeper controlliing the space behind a high line? Yes. Two differing things. 

If the keeper stays at home the game is not lost.

I could break down the technique used, the position of hands, the steps, and the lack of intensity x spring in the jump. 

The keeper failed. The game is lost. That in modern parlance is the outcome. Its a rubbish outcome. 

 

[1960maaan]

30 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Do I want my keeper interferiing with a high line? No. Do I want my keeper controlliing the space behind a high line? Yes. Two differing things. 

If the keeper stays at home the game is not lost.

I could break down the technique used, the position of hands, the steps, and the lack of intensity x spring in the jump. 

The keeper failed. The game is lost. That in modern parlance is the outcome. Its a rubbish outcome. 

 

What about the defender ignoring the clear shout, then jumping over a team mate who was also ignoring the shout. Doubtful Kalas gets a clean clearing header as Martin is also going for it. 
As for interfering with the high line. O'Leary would be catching the ball just past the Penalty spot. A straight ball with no opposition players challenging . Exactly the sort of Ball I want my Keeper to claim.

39 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I could break down the technique used, the position of hands, the steps, and the lack of intensity x spring in the jump.

That does sound a little condescending , but you may have been a keeper, or are an ex Pro , I don't know.  
But I just know that the Keeper called clearly. He's come with intent to catch, there's no danger or expectation of a challenge , should be a straightforward catch. Until Kalas runs and jumps on top of Martin. Scott ducks out so he's heard the shout.

As I've said, I'll defend him because I like keepers to claim those crosses, specially late on when trying to see games out or needing to get back up the other end. What I will say, I can't be 100% sure how early the shout was, though at the time it seemed early enough to have made it a simple catch. 

Of course you're right, if he stays home they don't score, at least in the way they did. Kalas's header could have gone to the same bloke , in space and it's still a chance.

We are managing to shoot ourselves in the foot on a regular basis, and it's not just that each mistake leads to a goal, they affect confidence and we are struggling to find simple passes, deliver decent balls and players are no longer available for passes they would have been 5 games ago.

A question I would ask about this goal, as I did about the first. Why is there a spare unmarked man at the back/left hand post ?

This has split opinion , so we will have to agree to disagree. I'll still want my keepers to come for balls, I have to then defend them if they do just that.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

23 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

I do a bit of coaching, and I absolutely encourage my keeper to come whenever practical, but also tell them to be mindful of the game around them. What the issue here was not that Max came for the ball, but that he came for it when he could clearly see defenders had the situation under control.

I’d haul my under 11s keeper out for that decision. For a championship keeper it’s unforgivable.

You’d haul out an under-11 keeper?  Really?  Under-11 football isn’t even competitive!

[Silvio Dante]

10 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

You’d haul out an under-11 keeper?  Really?  Under-11 football isn’t even competitive!

To be fair, he’s my son so it’d be either for that or for not cleaning his room and at least if it was the first he might improve whereas the seconds a lost cause….

Haul out is bad choice of words. He’d get told he made the wrong decision and why - but more pertinently I don’t think he’d make that decision to start with, even at eleven.

[Cowshed]

16 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

What about the defender ignoring the clear shout, then jumping over a team mate who was also ignoring the shout. Doubtful Kalas gets a clean clearing header as Martin is also going for it. 
As for interfering with the high line. O'Leary would be catching the ball just past the Penalty spot. A straight ball with no opposition players challenging . Exactly the sort of Ball I want my Keeper to claim.

That does sound a little condescending , but you may have been a keeper, or are an ex Pro , I don't know.  
But I just know that the Keeper called clearly. He's come with intent to catch, there's no danger or expectation of a challenge , should be a straightforward catch. Until Kalas runs and jumps on top of Martin. Scott ducks out so he's heard the shout.

As I've said, I'll defend him because I like keepers to claim those crosses, specially late on when trying to see games out or needing to get back up the other end. What I will say, I can't be 100% sure how early the shout was, though at the time it seemed early enough to have made it a simple catch. 

Of course you're right, if he stays home they don't score, at least in the way they did. Kalas's header could have gone to the same bloke , in space and it's still a chance.

We are managing to shoot ourselves in the foot on a regular basis, and it's not just that each mistake leads to a goal, they affect confidence and we are struggling to find simple passes, deliver decent balls and players are no longer available for passes they would have been 5 games ago.

A question I would ask about this goal, as I did about the first. Why is there a spare unmarked man at the back/left hand post ?

This has split opinion , so we will have to agree to disagree. I'll still want my keepers to come for balls, I have to then defend them if they do just that.

Check his feet. Double step before jumping means he cannot jump efficiently as he loses momentum, and that quells downward force to explode upwards. 

The keeper is entering a high line. Its not a straightfoward catch. He never gets high enough to use a straightforward catching technique (W). In traffic punch. The keeper should be cleaning all out, and he cant because of his feet. 

A question I would ask about this goal, as I did about the first. Why is there a spare unmarked man at the back/left hand post ? I'm not quite sure what your referring to.

[TommyD68]

Completely on Kalas.. O’Leary commits and makes the call, if he listens Max makes an easy catch. We could hear him in the stands, Scott clearly hears him and follows instruction, Kalas decided to ignore and caused the collision. 
 

Ive always thought Kalas is erratic and doesn’t hold the shape very well, not sure why we’re giving him the minutes when he’s going to be leaving on a free this summer. He certainly doesn’t deserve his place ahead of Vyner or Atkinson and Naismith/Klose offer a lot more leadership than he does. 
 

 

[1960maaan]

I would say the fact he gets both hands in a position to catch the ball (until Kalas intervenes ) says to me he was in position. I was always told the Keeper calls it's his ball. There is no Millwall player challenging , I think it's reasonable t think he could walk out and catch it to his chest. 

Anyway, moving on. 
What I mean about unmarked men.
First goal 3 players allowed to run and end up free, one getting a good free header.

2nd goal

4 City players marking thin air to the left (this angle) , the Goalscorer , unmarked to the right

 

[Cowshed]

6 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

I would say the fact he gets both hands in a position to catch the ball (until Kalas intervenes ) says to me he was in position. I was always told the Keeper calls it's his ball. There is no Millwall player challenging , I think it's reasonable t think he could walk out and catch it to his chest. 

 

You do not catch a ball when entering a line. The keeper should punch it. Why because of the variables and the result underlines it.

 

10 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

 

Anyway, moving on. 
What I mean about unmarked men.
First goal 3 players allowed to run and end up free, one getting a good free header.

 

 

 

 

Runners where not tracked and ball watching. The cross was superb.

14 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

4 City players marking thin air to the left (this angle) , the Goalscorer , unmarked to the right

 

Starts compact and in a line, and leaves because of the Keeper going. 

The shape was fine v a straight ball until the keeper intervenes. 

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Runners where not tracked and ball watching. The cross was superb.

The cross was quite similar to Sykes’s on Wednesday night, wasn’t it?

[1960maaan]

5 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The shape was fine v a straight ball until the keeper intervenes.

Not sure how Max is to blame for basically 8 City players Vs 4 attackers from the Penalty spot up. 

 

[Better Red]

1 hour ago, 1960maaan said:

What about the defender ignoring the clear shout, then jumping over a team mate who was also ignoring the shout. Doubtful Kalas gets a clean clearing header as Martin is also going for it. 
As for interfering with the high line. O'Leary would be catching the ball just past the Penalty spot. A straight ball with no opposition players challenging . Exactly the sort of Ball I want my Keeper to claim.

That does sound a little condescending , but you may have been a keeper, or are an ex Pro , I don't know.  
But I just know that the Keeper called clearly. He's come with intent to catch, there's no danger or expectation of a challenge , should be a straightforward catch. Until Kalas runs and jumps on top of Martin. Scott ducks out so he's heard the shout.

As I've said, I'll defend him because I like keepers to claim those crosses, specially late on when trying to see games out or needing to get back up the other end. What I will say, I can't be 100% sure how early the shout was, though at the time it seemed early enough to have made it a simple catch. 

Of course you're right, if he stays home they don't score, at least in the way they did. Kalas's header could have gone to the same bloke , in space and it's still a chance.

We are managing to shoot ourselves in the foot on a regular basis, and it's not just that each mistake leads to a goal, they affect confidence and we are struggling to find simple passes, deliver decent balls and players are no longer available for passes they would have been 5 games ago.

A question I would ask about this goal, as I did about the first. Why is there a spare unmarked man at the back/left hand post ?

This has split opinion , so we will have to agree to disagree. I'll still want my keepers to come for balls, I have to then defend them if they do just that.

Cant claim a ball in his six yard box as he is always routed to his line but you want him to collect a ball nearly 20 yards off it.

If that’s the case you got the wrong keeper

[Red-Robbo]

The criticism of Bentley was that he didn't step off his line to intercept crosses flashing just in front of the goalmouth. The situation where Max advanced was quite different. The ball was being played on a forward diagonal, but was loose. There were an enormous amount of red shirts surrounding the recipient of that pass, however the danger would be that the ball might find someone wide and unmarked. Which it did. Had Max stayed on his line, he could have dealt with that threat. As it was, Flemming only needed to sidefoot it into the empty net. The tea lady could've scored it!

We can argue that someone should've tracked Flemming, but without seeing his entire run, and knowing where Weimann and Semenyo had to run back from, that's moot.

[Better Red]

43 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

You do not catch a ball when entering a line. The keeper should punch it. Why because of the variables and the result underlines it.

 

Runners where not tracked and ball watching. The cross was superb.

Starts compact and in a line, and leaves because of the Keeper going. 

The shape was fine v a straight ball until the keeper intervenes. 

How far out is he…  

Anybody he thinks he should be out that far is just palm and simple wrong as proven in the actual game.

It looked stupid live looks even worse when you watch the replay.

[Better Red]

1 hour ago, 1960maaan said:

I would say the fact he gets both hands in a position to catch the ball (until Kalas intervenes ) says to me he was in position. I was always told the Keeper calls it's his ball. There is no Millwall player challenging , I think it's reasonable t think he could walk out and catch it to his chest. 

Anyway, moving on. 
What I mean about unmarked men.
First goal 3 players allowed to run and end up free, one getting a good free header.

2nd goal

4 City players marking thin air to the left (this angle) , the Goalscorer , unmarked to the right

 

1st goal - palms to left they don’t score

2nd goal he is almost in the south stand 

Both look like his fault to me

 

[1960maaan]

14 minutes ago, Better Red said:

1st goal - palms to left they don’t score

2nd goal he is almost in the south stand 

Both look like his fault to me

 

1st it's a reaction save, he doesn't get the luxury of choosing where to put it.

2nd he's just past the Penalty spot.

If you're happy watching Bentley never coming off his line , fair play. I want and expect more. 

[RedRock]

My take is that a keeper claiming a ball that far off his line in the context of other player positions is rather exceptional. 

Anywhere between the goal line and penalty spot is the keeper’s domain. Beyond that is the realm of uncertainty when there are opposition players about.

Yes, he did give a shout, and yes there are no opposition players in the ‘ball zone’ but an experienced defender like Kalas would be preset to 100% deal with a ball in that area and, no doubt, totally committed in his head to do that I suspect before the keeper’s shout. 
 
In a way, tough to blame O’Leary, particularly as we’ve all been keen on a keeper dominating his box. I suspect the outcome was mainly a consequence of having a new keeper and re-introduced after long lay-off central defender. Poor though, and preventable, with better defensive unit planning/training/communication.

Edited October 16, 2022 by RedRock

[Colemanballs]

4 hours ago, Cowshed said:

You do not catch a ball when entering a line. The keeper should punch it. Why because of the variables and the result underlines it.

If Kalas doesn't intervene it's an easy catch. To say he should punch it with no opposition players are anywhere near is ludicrous.

Runners where not tracked and ball watching. The cross was superb.

Yep, so the fault of the defence and not MOL.

Starts compact and in a line, and leaves because of the Keeper going. 

The shape was fine v a straight ball until the keeper intervenes. 

Absolute nonsense. See 1960maan's photo posted a couple of posts below. Kalas and Martin were always going to get in each other's way. Scott might have too if he hadn't reacted to MOL's shout.

See above

[Cowshed]

5 hours ago, Colemanballs said:

See above

If Kalas doesn't intervene it's an easy catch. To say he should punch it with no opposition players are anywhere near is ludicrous.

The player didnt catch it. He is entering a line, a high line and the outcome? The whys he should punch. 

Absolute nonsense. See 1960maan's photo posted a couple of posts below. Kalas and Martin were always going to get in each other's way. Scott might have too if he hadn't reacted to MOL's shout.

The shape was fine.There were enough players to deal with ball. They did not need more, If the Keeper stays the opposition do not score. 

[Super]

I wouldn't blame Max for the first goal but the 2nd is 100% his fault. Dreadful goalkeeping.

[cheese]

56 minutes ago, Super said:

I wouldn't blame Max for the first goal but the 2nd is 100% his fault. Dreadful goalkeeping.

[Mendip Broadwalk]

Oleary should have come out like a tank if hes going all that way out and two fisted it. He came out and hesitated and the ball gets rolled in the net.

[Lordofthebling]

On 16/10/2022 at 21:30, 1960maaan said:

Not sure how Max is to blame for basically 8 City players Vs 4 attackers from the Penalty spot up. 

 

That is literally where max shouldve given a big shout, commanded that box and cleared everyone out with the risk of a clattering. Old school I know.