The Semenyo Conundrum…..

[TomThumb84]

May have been mentioned elsewhere but I think this is a problem for us.

When Wells/Conway were together it was integral to our system and the way we played. All pace and guile and clever runs down the sides in a partnership that just works. There is no science or footballing rationale for it on a personal relationship level. It just happens sometimes.

Now, Semenyo has to play. He has to. Why wouldn't he? Especially if we are hoping he stays with us longterm, and if he is not starting, he is off. But it destabilises us, and confuses me. I feel like he has to play, but also feel we are a better unit without him. Its hard. Individually in the Top 2 talents at the club but we just dont click when he starts, in this system. Thats my view.

I have made no secret of the fact that I am a massive Nahki Wells fan, and Tommy Conway looks lost without him on the pitch, so this is tough all round.

Leave Antoine out? Leave Weimann out? Go back to WSM? Wont work in this formation in my view.

No answers to this other than tough ones.

I also think in our chosen formation, having two wingbacks that could deliver crosses with menace would help but thats a different thread.

Sunday morning musings!!

Edited October 16, 2022 by TomThumb84

[Harry]

I know this likely won’t happen, but with the 5 subs rule, I don’t know why more managers aren’t using this in a tactical sense, much like they do in rugby. 
 

For me, Semenyo is a brute and he has the potential to really scare defenders. 
Why don’t we make him a ‘specialist brute’ and bring him on for 30-40 minutes in the 2nd half, against tiring defenders. 
 

We’ve seen from his sub appearances this season that he can perhaps be more effective as the ‘impact’ sub rather than the starter. 
 

I don’t know why more teams aren’t looking at the 5 subs and thinking about specialist players. 
 

For example, in our current formation, I’d love to have seen 2 wing backs for each flank, run their backsides off and then switch them out. Dasilva gets 60 mins, Pring gets 30 mins, and then vice-versa the next game. Keeps them fresh, but also keeps them included. If a player knows he’s gonna get a game each week he’ll remain happy in the squad, rather than on the periphery. 
 

With Semenyo, we could guarantee him 30-40 minutes every week, but sell it to him that it could potentially make him look like a better player, coming on vs tired defenders to brutalise them. 
 

The 5 subs rule needs to be exploited tactically, in my opinion. You can basically sub half of the outfield players. This ought to provide a myriad of opportunities. 

[TomThumb84]

6 minutes ago, Harry said:

I know this likely won’t happen, but with the 5 subs rule, I don’t know why more managers aren’t using this in a tactical sense, much like they do in rugby. 
 

For me, Semenyo is a brute and he has the potential to really scare defenders. 
Why don’t we make him a ‘specialist brute’ and bring him on for 30-40 minutes in the 2nd half, against tiring defenders. 
 

We’ve seen from his sub appearances this season that he can perhaps be more effective as the ‘impact’ sub rather than the starter. 
 

I don’t know why more teams aren’t looking at the 5 subs and thinking about specialist players. 
 

For example, in our current formation, I’d love to have seen 2 wing backs for each flank, run their backsides off and then switch them out. Dasilva gets 60 mins, Pring gets 30 mins, and then vice-versa the next game. Keeps them fresh, but also keeps them included. If a player knows he’s gonna get a game each week he’ll remain happy in the squad, rather than on the periphery. 
 

With Semenyo, we could guarantee him 30-40 minutes every week, but sell it to him that it could potentially make him look like a better player, coming on vs tired defenders to brutalise them. 
 

The 5 subs rule needs to be exploited tactically, in my opinion. You can basically sub half of the outfield players. This ought to provide a myriad of opportunities. 

I agree and Semenyo is better used as an “impact sub” but he will want to start surely? Not sure its a sell. 

[Harry]

3 minutes ago, TomThumb84 said:

I agree and Semenyo is better used as an “impact sub” but he will want to start surely? Not sure its a sell. 

If it’s sold as “this will make you appear to be a better player, and you’ll likely get more goals and you’ll still be getting 90 minutes a week when we have 2 matches per week”, then it could work? 
As I said in the opening, it’s unlikely, but I do think teams will start to play with the idea of leveraging the 5 subs rule 

[red colin]

5 minutes ago, Harry said:

I know this likely won’t happen, but with the 5 subs rule, I don’t know why more managers aren’t using this in a tactical sense, much like they do in rugby. 
 

For me, Semenyo is a brute and he has the potential to really scare defenders. 
Why don’t we make him a ‘specialist brute’ and bring him on for 30-40 minutes in the 2nd half, against tiring defenders. 
 

We’ve seen from his sub appearances this season that he can perhaps be more effective as the ‘impact’ sub rather than the starter. 
 

I don’t know why more teams aren’t looking at the 5 subs and thinking about specialist players. 
 

For example, in our current formation, I’d love to have seen 2 wing backs for each flank, run their backsides off and then switch them out. Dasilva gets 60 mins, Pring gets 30 mins, and then vice-versa the next game. Keeps them fresh, but also keeps them included. If a player knows he’s gonna get a game each week he’ll remain happy in the squad, rather than on the periphery. 
 

With Semenyo, we could guarantee him 30-40 minutes every week, but sell it to him that it could potentially make him look like a better player, coming on vs tired defenders to brutalise them. 
 

The 5 subs rule needs to be exploited tactically, in my opinion. You can basically sub half of the outfield players. This ought to provide a myriad of opportunities. 

Absolutely agree regarding Semenyo he is not a centre forward and so far can't work with conway.i would use him as an impact last 30 min  bull to shake up a tiring defence I just dont think he is disciplined enough to work as a pair, he is a big asset and we love him but he would not be a starter for me yet.

[KernowRed]

In my opinion he is a route one player and is not aware of other players. Take yesterday when thinking about other players he made the pass which resulted in the own goal for us.  If he thinks more periphally, we will get the goals, but if wishes to blast every shot then we will not get the results!

He is keen but a bit touchy when things dont go his way, needs to think a lot more.

[One Team]

We were saying this yesterday, we’ve looked worse since he’s come back into the side. Our best spell this season was with Wells and Conway up front and Semenyo coming on later as a substitute. 

Yes he’s a great player but that doesn’t necessarily mean he fits best with our starting 11 and how we want to play. 

[ZumerZetSmithy]

I agree about this . Have said in our group we seem to be better with out Ant. We need to get him to be a team player for his own career  and us to get the best price when sold .    Who would be the manager not me

[Jeez]

29 minutes ago, Harry said:

I know this likely won’t happen, but with the 5 subs rule, I don’t know why more managers aren’t using this in a tactical sense, much like they do in rugby. 
 

For me, Semenyo is a brute and he has the potential to really scare defenders. 
Why don’t we make him a ‘specialist brute’ and bring him on for 30-40 minutes in the 2nd half, against tiring defenders. 
 

We’ve seen from his sub appearances this season that he can perhaps be more effective as the ‘impact’ sub rather than the starter. 
 

I don’t know why more teams aren’t looking at the 5 subs and thinking about specialist players. 
 

For example, in our current formation, I’d love to have seen 2 wing backs for each flank, run their backsides off and then switch them out. Dasilva gets 60 mins, Pring gets 30 mins, and then vice-versa the next game. Keeps them fresh, but also keeps them included. If a player knows he’s gonna get a game each week he’ll remain happy in the squad, rather than on the periphery. 
 

With Semenyo, we could guarantee him 30-40 minutes every week, but sell it to him that it could potentially make him look like a better player, coming on vs tired defenders to brutalise them. 
 

The 5 subs rule needs to be exploited tactically, in my opinion. You can basically sub half of the outfield players. This ought to provide a myriad of opportunities. 

Good idea, but there’s a strange obsession about stating 11’s in football. Being a squad player doesn’t seem as acceptable as it is in Rugby, especially when changes aren’t made unit 70-80 min mark.

Semenyo from the bench is a strong tactic but he’ll be pushing for an Exit by Jan, so it won’t happen. 

I’d give Weiman a break and try Semenyo in there for a few games & bring the Conway / Wells partnership another start.

[Loosey Boy]

Let’s get Conway and Wells back up front - this is when we were at our most potent earlier in the season.

Antoine can then come on with 30 mins to go and cause mayhem to opposing defences 

[grifty]

When we have Wells and Conway up front, we keep the ball on the floor, build up play and attack using the space down the sides.

As soon as Semenyo plays, we've starting hoofing the ball up to him.

If played the same way, we'd be doing fine, but our players just do not have the football intelligence to not hoof it to a physical presence up front. They do the same with Martin.

[bobbyhutchscurlymullet]

Agree, Semenyo always looks better in the second half, even when he starts. Maybe due to the game opening up, creating more space for him to turn and run at defenders

[TomThumb84]

Wells can consider himself hard done by. 5 in 5 and a handful of assists then no starts since QPR.

[Lanterne Rouge]

Impact sub for me - start Nahki and Tommy.

[Robbored]

Watching Semenyo  yesterday he caused more problems when playing wide right than when directly up the middle.

It also occurred to me that AS hasn’t yet forged a partnership with anyone whereas Conway/Wells know each other’s game well having played several games in the U21’s and are good mates off the pitch.

To me it would make sense to play Conway/Wells up top with AS playing a wider position. He’s very adept at getting to the by line and creating havoc.

[SouthS22]

It seems to me that Semenyo’s game is better matched with Martin’s, while Tommy and Nakhi play much better together as a pair.  Both pairs look to be better suited to different opponents.  Tommy and Nakhi seem to play better against good footballing sides who like to play out from the back, but they can get bullied by physical sides.  Martin and Semenyo are better against more physical sides who like to play longer.  Semenyo links well with Martin as a decent target man who links the play, especially with the threat of Weimann running in behind which creates space for him.  
 

I’d use them like that, with Semenyo available also to come in later in games against better ball playing sides to cause problems for tiring defenders.  That way he plays every game pretty much and we maximise his strengths.  

[Champfan45]

I think it is the managers job to put the players in position to have success. It does seem like he's not being used correctly at times; we must find a way to get him matched up 1v1. Since our system can be somewhat narrow at times I think he will find more favorable positions in the half spaces and out by the touch line. Look at all the space JD and Sykes get. I'm not saying play him as a winger or wingback but allow him free reign over both sides of the pitch. Does this sound like it might work or am I out of order here?

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by Champfan45

[Supersonic Robin]

IMO the "Semenyo Conundrum" is quite simple - you start him. 

He's a £15m striker and arguably our best player - he should be starting games and playing as many minutes as possible - sometimes there's no need to over complicate these things. He's a threat in terms of both goals and assists, and causes a huge amount of problems for defences even when he's not directly involved in goal contributions.

Appreciate the arguments about our dip in attacking threat in recent weeks, but IMO that's caused predominantly by other factors:
- The absence of Naismith (and to a lesser extent James)
- Teams playing differently against us, congesting central areas and giving more space/time to our wing backs
- A general dip in confidence/performance standards across the team

[Jerseybean]

For me it’s Wells and Conway starting with Semenyo as in impact sub. There is enough evidence that NW and TC form a clever and complimentary partnership. The more cut and thrust, raw strength and power of Semenyo is a great asset, however, for me he too often has a ‘rush of blood’ and lacks vision and finesse when well placed. Yesterday was a prime example, although he played a well weighted ball to Pring, which led to our equalizer, there were numerous other occasions when he blasted it wide or powered it across the face of goal. 

[miketh2nd]

5 hours ago, KernowRed said:

In my opinion he is a route one player and is not aware of other players. Take yesterday when thinking about other players he made the pass which resulted in the own goal for us.  If he thinks more periphally, we will get the goals, but if wishes to blast every shot then we will not get the results!

He is keen but a bit touchy when things dont go his way, needs to think a lot more.

10 assists to his name last season and he was only playing from November.  He put in one of the best crosses of the game that was just a bit too fast for weimann. Other than Scott I don't see barely any of our players shoot outside from the box.

  The service to the front two in the last 4/5 games has been poor no matter the combination . Especially compared to the start of the season.  

[Offside]

It’s a difficult one. Semenyo causes opposition defenders all sorts of problems and is one of our few players who is willing to run and defenders and take them on. But the Conway and Wells pairing coincided with our best form. 

Conway’s form has dipped recently. Not a surprise, though, because that happens with young players, although maybe it’s also because he’s missing Wells. 

The biggest problem for me is our terrible passing and crossing, which makes it difficult for us to create anything regardless of who is playing ip front. Semenyo at least can create chances through his sheer physicality. 

I’d be tempted to start with Semenyo and Wells for now. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

I was in the minority in thinking that we should have sold him in the summer. 

I just felt the cash could have been used to improve the team in other areas where we are severely lacking. 

In my mind it was a simple equation. Would we be a better team with a new CB, new midfielder etc? or would we be better without those but with Semenyo in the team? and unfortunately however good Semenyo is, I think I'd rather of had the extra players. 

[Better Red]

I have said for years on here he is not a Centre Forward (they score goals thread..) which I have been roundly slated.

For me he is a winger who will get 8 or so goals a season.

Play him wide in a front 3 and he would be more effective.

I would start him every game rather from the bench I rate him as a player who will cause lots of trouble and push teams backwards which importantly keeps them away from our goal (and Max)

[tin]

For me, Conway and Wells are our best strike partnership. But Martin and Semenyo should start against the direct sides as Conway and Wells get bullied.

Otherwise, I agree with those that say use Semenyo as an impact sub against tiring defences. The stats alone back up that idea.

[Better Red]

Impact sub worth £10/15m according to a lot of people 8 weeks ago….

[Bris Red]

1 hour ago, tin said:

For me, Conway and Wells are our best strike partnership. But Martin and Semenyo should start against the direct sides as Conway and Wells get bullied.

Otherwise, I agree with those that say use Semenyo as an impact sub against tiring defences. The stats alone back up that idea.

My thoughts aswell. Pearson is an experienced manager at this level and obviously will have seen what the rest of us did in as much as Conway and Wells looked the perfect duo up top.
They worked brilliantly together and it was no coincidence that we had our best spell this season with those two up top. 
 

My only thinking is that perhaps Semenyo and his representatives were made some promises by the club that when he is back fit that he will start games..I’m sure the club are almost resigned to the fact we will lose him next summer and think its best he plays (starts) as many games as possible so as to get him in the shop window and we get as much £ as we can for him next summer.

I agree with the general consensus on here though that he is better as an impact sub coming on to attack tired legs. Personally would love to see Wells and Conway given another run but we shall see if that’s the route Pearson wants to go.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, tin said:

For me, Conway and Wells are our best strike partnership. But Martin and Semenyo should start against the direct sides as Conway and Wells get bullied.

Otherwise, I agree with those that say use Semenyo as an impact sub against tiring defences. The stats alone back up that idea.

There is a lot to be said for that…and I think it’s more to be said for how both pairs play together.  They compliment each other well.

Wells and Conway, well documented by me about how they “tow” each other round the pitch, good awareness of how they can work in tandem to pull their markers around to create space for the other.

Martin and Semenyo…Martin allows Semenyo to play against the weaker opposition CB.  If the opponents swap, then Martin benefits.

Now, of course a pairing might not work in every game, and it’s quite possible the other combos might develop in time, but definitely some thinking for Nige about who he pairs with whom.

[maxjak]

4 hours ago, Robbored said:

Watching Semenyo  yesterday he caused more problems when playing wide right than when directly up the middle.

It also occurred to me that AS hasn’t yet forged a partnership with anyone whereas Conway/Wells know each other’s game well having played several games in the U21’s and are good mates off the pitch.

To me it would make sense to play Conway/Wells up top with AS playing a wider position. He’s very adept at getting to the by line and creating havoc.

Sorry Robbored....cannot agree.  Semenyo is at his best playing centrally IMHO.  Pearson used to play him wide, but it was not until he switched Antoine into the middle, that he started to score goals and make his presence felt.  People forget that AS has been out injured for a couple of months, and is still playing catch up  ...........Give him a few more games and i am certain he will be back to his best...............but NOT out wide.

[Leveller]

2 hours ago, miketh2nd said:

10 assists to his name last season and he was only playing from November.  He put in one of the best crosses of the game that was just a bit too fast for weimann. Other than Scott I don't see barely any of our players shoot outside from the box.

  The service to the front two in the last 4/5 games has been poor no matter the combination . Especially compared to the start of the season.  

To me, that cross was meant as a shot. And there have been several instances recently where he has wasted chances by blasting wide instead of considering teammates. Yesterday I thought he created but then wasted several opportunities.

[tin]

56 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

There is a lot to be said for that…and I think it’s more to be said for how both pairs play together.  They compliment each other well.

Wells and Conway, well documented by me about how they “tow” each other round the pitch, good awareness of how they can work in tandem to pull their markers around to create space for the other.

Martin and Semenyo…Martin allows Semenyo to play against the weaker opposition CB.  If the opponents swap, then Martin benefits.

Now, of course a pairing might not work in every game, and it’s quite possible the other combos might develop in time, but definitely some thinking for Nige about who he pairs with whom.

Totally agree. Usually I see the logic in not changing a winning side, but there’s a real need for squad rotation with the games coming thick and fast because of the World Cup stupidly being played in winter. 

WSM worked well at the end of the last year, particularly against more physical opponents. I see no reason why they couldn’t be paired again yesterday. That’s not to say it’s our best partnership up front, but it’s more horses for courses. 

[WuTang]

I think there is a lot of comparisons being made here that are not on a like for like basis.

Whilst he has given away a few goals, Naismith makes a massive difference to our team going forward, building from the back and always being available with confidence on the ball (sometime over confident!).

Similar can be said for Matty James.

Put Semenyo on the pitch when they are both fit, I will think you’ll see a different player due to the team being more composed with that extra experience and comfort on the ball. 
 

Out problem is the depth…. We don’t control midfield without James, we don’t build from the back and look comfortable on the ball with out Naismith.

 

[Champfan45]

8 hours ago, SouthS22 said:

It seems to me that Semenyo’s game is better matched with Martin’s, while Tommy and Nakhi play much better together as a pair.  Both pairs look to be better suited to different opponents.  Tommy and Nakhi seem to play better against good footballing sides who like to play out from the back, but they can get bullied by physical sides.  Martin and Semenyo are better against more physical sides who like to play longer.  Semenyo links well with Martin as a decent target man who links the play, especially with the threat of Weimann running in behind which creates space for him.  
 

I’d use them like that, with Semenyo available also to come in later in games against better ball playing sides to cause problems for tiring defenders.  That way he plays every game pretty much and we maximise his strengths.  

I'm not saying you're wrong or disagreeing with you but I don't understand your point. What difference does it make for the strikers if the opposition plays long balls going forward vs slow build up, possession based play? Sorry if this is a dumb question as I am not as tactically astute compared to others on here.

 

[Engvall’s Splinter]

13 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I was in the minority in thinking that we should have sold him in the summer. 

I just felt the cash could have been used to improve the team in other areas where we are severely lacking. 

In my mind it was a simple equation. Would we be a better team with a new CB, new midfielder etc? or would we be better without those but with Semenyo in the team? and unfortunately however good Semenyo is, I think I'd rather of had the extra players. 

Did we have a bid in the summer?

[maxjak]

20 hours ago, Leveller said:

To me, that cross was meant as a shot. And there have been several instances recently where he has wasted chances by blasting wide instead of considering teammates. Yesterday I thought he created but then wasted several opportunities.

He seems to be  currently    preferring power over placement?  Some of his crosses have been hit so hard that they have been almost impossible to convert?  And some shots are endangering the corner flags?    He has missed pre season and is playing catch up, but he is quality, and will come good..........but it is up to coaches like Euell to advise him and help him express  his undoubted talent? I am certain given a few more games he will be back to his best...........remember he is only 22, and needs guidance?   If i was coaching him, i would give him some breathing exercise's, (Amongst plenty of others!)    to allow him to relax, and not be so hyped up?     However....what do i know, i might be completely wrong.....Ha!

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, maxjak said:

He seems to be  currently    preferring power over placement?  Some of his crosses have been hit so hard that they have been almost impossible to convert?  And some shots are endangering the corner flags?    He has missed pre season and is playing catch up, but he is quality, and will come good..........but it is up to coaches like Euell to advise him and help him express  his undoubted talent? I am certain given a few more games he will be back to his best...........remember he is only 22, and needs guidance?   If i was coaching him, i would give him some breathing exercise's, (Amongst plenty of others!)    to allow him to relax, and not be so hyped up?     However....what do i know, i might be completely wrong.....Ha!

Like a golfer, you can hit the ball just as far with a good, steady swing…the extra yards you get from trying to hit it hard aren’t worth the effort at the expense of accuracy.  Antoine generates more than enough power from “stroking it”…and if he gets back into form, he will realise this.

[Champfan45]

40 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Like a golfer, you can hit the ball just as far with a good, steady swing…the extra yards you get from trying to hit it hard aren’t worth the effort at the expense of accuracy.  Antoine generates more than enough power from “stroking it”…and if he gets back into form, he will realise this.

I've heard that going too long without "stroking it" can result in heightened levels of tension and stress. Somebody get this man a nudie mag 

[Rob k]

On 16/10/2022 at 16:45, miketh2nd said:

10 assists to his name last season and he was only playing from November.  He put in one of the best crosses of the game that was just a bit too fast for weimann. Other than Scott I don't see barely any of our players shoot outside from the box.

  The service to the front two in the last 4/5 games has been poor no matter the combination . Especially compared to the start of the season.  

Tbf i was right in line with that cross and it was awful - not a single player had a chance of getting on the end of it 

[Leveller]

39 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Tbf i was right in line with that cross and it was awful - not a single player had a chance of getting on the end of it 

Because it was a wild shot, not a cross!

[Red Skin]

On 16/10/2022 at 11:13, KernowRed said:

In my opinion he is a route one player and is not aware of other players. Take yesterday when thinking about other players he made the pass which resulted in the own goal for us.  If he thinks more periphally, we will get the goals, but if wishes to blast every shot then we will not get the results!

He is keen but a bit touchy when things dont go his way, needs to think a lot more.

He is absolutely aware of other players. He has provided plenty of excellent assists to show that.  He is just more confident in his own ability and wants to take shots on goals when he has the chance now rather than give responsibility to others.   Conway has done the same too.  It's what strikers do.  

Personally, I think he isn't fully match fit yet which is part of the problem.  

As for OPs original post, I don't know what the answer is either.  Other than I feel Chris Martin is less of a favourable option for me, especially as his lack of games means he's even more off the pace when used.  

[TomThumb84]

Still no return to the partnership that saw us being touted as playoff contenders then!

Maybe there is a start-time agreement with Semenyo or building his value for Jan.

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, TomThumb84 said:

Still no return to the partnership that saw us being touted as playoff contenders then!

Maybe there is a start-time agreement with Semenyo or building his value for Jan.

Tommy looks a bit out of touch, he’s having one of those periods break through players have. 

[AshtonRobin21]

Worth keeping a close eye on Thomas-Asante tonight. 

He would have been one of my choices as a possible Semenyo replacement. 

Too late now, however. 

[TomThumb84]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Tommy looks a bit out of touch, he’s having one of those periods break through players have. 

Maybe cause he has not had his chosen strike partner to guide him through.

Wells/Conway have both been vocal about their partnership on and off the pitch, and had the goals and assists to back it.

Feels to me like that partnership was given up on oddly swiftly.

[TomThumb84]

Semenyo/Wells. What a partnership!

[Davefevs]

5 hours ago, AshtonRobin21 said:

Worth keeping a close eye on Thomas-Asante tonight. 

He would have been one of my choices as a possible Semenyo replacement. 

Too late now, however. 

Thought he gave a decent account of himself tonight.

[AshtonRobin21]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Thought he gave a decent account of himself tonight.

Agreed. 

I think he still looks very raw, but capable of improving. 

Certainly needs to regain the eye for goal that he showed at Salford. 

But, for the reported £300k, it's a good bit of business by West Brom. 

[Harry]

59 minutes ago, AshtonRobin21 said:

Agreed. 

I think he still looks very raw, but capable of improving. 

Certainly needs to regain the eye for goal that he showed at Salford. 

But, for the reported £300k, it's a good bit of business by West Brom. 

Same price they paid us for Bob Taylor!! 
30 years ago! 

[Colombo Robin]

Any news on his injury? Havent seen anything

[Champfan45]

Apparently some coaches from the Ghana national team were there to watch him last night. I generally thought he played well especially his shot turned assist and he had a lovely turn later on although he completely fluffed the resulting shot